NHL Playoff Talk

[cheeba]

I'm comparing the fans, not the teams. Fans for both teams are for the most part 1) numerous and 2) intolerable. You can do Red Wings and Red Sox fans if it makes you feel better. Same difference.

Do you have something you disagree with or are you going to sit there like a child in a tantrum complaining about someone being intolerable without specifics?

[Koz]

I'm comparing the fans, not the teams. Fans for both teams are for the most part 1) numerous and 2) intolerable. You can do Red Wings and Red Sox fans if it makes you feel better. Same difference.

Do you have something you disagree with or are you going to sit there like a child in a tantrum complaining about someone being intolerable without specifics?

You just proved my point.

[cheeba]

You just proved my point.

So child having a tantrum is the choice. Gotcha.

[Koz]

You just proved my point.

So child having a tantrum is the choice. Gotcha.

Touche.

[Koz]

Intolerable are comments like this:

This is not the 80s NHL.  The Pens do not have the defense to stay with the Wings.  They have all kinds of offensive talent but the Wings match them there.  The problem the Pens will run into is the same one every other team to play Detroit has, Zet and Dat are just as committed to playing defense as they are offense.  As is every line the Wings throw out there.  I am just short of brash enough to pick the sweep.  Wings in 5.

As Jiffy pointed out, Pittsburgh's defense has been better than Detroit's. Pittsburgh has lost only one game, to Detroit's two. Both teams have played teams that didn't bother to show up (Ottawa/Colorado), both teams have played against pretty good teams and come out on top (Rangers/Nashville), and now both teams are playing lights out in their conference finals. To say Detroit will whitewash Pittsburgh is pretty asinine, IMO. Yes, it could happen, but I don't think it will. The Pens are red hot, easily as hot as Detroit. The big difference between the teams is playoff experience, and that's the reason I think Detroit will come out on top in the end.

But the cockiness and arrogance shown is very typical of Wings fans I come across. And this is pretty surprising considering that playoff collapses have been a frequent occurrence in Hockeytown in recent years.

[Remus West2]

Playoff +/- ratings
Zetterberg +13
Datsyuk +11

Crosby +5
Malkin +5

Since you did not like the regular season stats how about the play-off +/- ratings?  Do you think this might show that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are more committed to being responsible at both ends of the ice than Crosby and Malkin?  Particularly in light of the fact that Crosby and Malkin have 19 and 18 points respectively while Zetterberg and Datsyuk have 18 and 17.  The points can be misleading though because Crosby has 10 PP points and Malkin 8 while Zetterberg and Datsyuk only have 6 and 5.  Taken together though they do seem closer than I thought they would but Detroit still has the edge there.

And if I am intolerable in some way then why are you bothering to mention anything.  If it were intolerable you would have left.  I am at best being annoying to you.

[Koz]

I'm not talking about two players. TEAM defense, not the defense of two players. Pittsburgh has better TEAM defense than Detroit, at least statistically. Zetterberg and Datsyuk average about 20 minutes a game, so 66% of the time their defense means squat. And plus/minus is a misleading stat for judging defensive prowess anyways.

[Rowdy]

The Pens are looking to me like the early 80's Oilers.  It will be interesting as an Oilers fan to see if a team can assemble and maintain that kind of talent in the economic conditions of today's NHL.

Pens over Wings in 6.

This is not the 80s NHL.  The Pens do not have the defense to stay with the Wings.  They have all kinds of offensive talent but the Wings match them there.  The problem the Pens will run into is the same one every other team to play Detroit has, Zet and Dat are just as committed to playing defense as they are offense.  As is every line the Wings throw out there.  I am just short of brash enough to pick the sweep.  Wings in 5.

side note:  I really really hope that Ozgood gets 12 wins in a row taking that record from Roy but that is a long way off.

Spoken like someone who never watched the Oilers play.  Defense?  Who cares?  Score 8 goals and you don't need defense.  And without getting into stats, etc, just as a long time hocky watcher - Crosby and Malkin > Zetterberg and Datsyuk by a large margin.

[Remus West2]

The Pens are looking to me like the early 80's Oilers.  It will be interesting as an Oilers fan to see if a team can assemble and maintain that kind of talent in the economic conditions of today's NHL.

Pens over Wings in 6.

This is not the 80s NHL.  The Pens do not have the defense to stay with the Wings.  They have all kinds of offensive talent but the Wings match them there.  The problem the Pens will run into is the same one every other team to play Detroit has, Zet and Dat are just as committed to playing defense as they are offense.  As is every line the Wings throw out there.  I am just short of brash enough to pick the sweep.  Wings in 5.

side note:  I really really hope that Ozgood gets 12 wins in a row taking that record from Roy but that is a long way off.

Spoken like someone who never watched the Oilers play.  Defense?  Who cares?  Score 8 goals and you don't need defense.  And without getting into stats, etc, just as a long time hocky watcher - Crosby and Malkin > Zetterberg and Datsyuk by a large margin.

You keep your pair, I'll keep mine.  I like mine better.  I did watch the Oilers play, that is why I said this is not the 80s NHL.  What worked then will not work now.

[the Nightbreeze]

Call me silly, but + / - only shows me that the Redwings have two or four guys scoring and the Pens have two or four lines scoring.  There's lots of names on the Pens scoring sheet.

What that means come the cup is hard to say, and I'm not willing to make any predictions either way off of it.

[MHS]

I'm a Red Wings fan, obviously, but I don't think there's much chance Detroit will sweep the Pens.  Both teams are red-hot right now, and while Detroit is known for being a great puck possession team, Pittsburgh has also been really deliberate in their games against the Flyers, and have been doing some great passing along with the "throw the puck at the goal and hope something happens" style (which Detroit, frankly, isn't good at.)  Pittsburgh also has the advantage in speed, and more aggressive forechecking.  One of my complaints about the Red Wings is that once they get the lead, they're content to play keep-away all night with the puck instead of being aggressive and trying to make opportunities.

My original pick was a Detroit/Pittsburgh final with Detroit in 5, but I'm thinking I was too optimistic with that.  I still think and hope Detroit wins, but I think it will be harder fought.

[Remus West2]

Call me silly, but + / - only shows me that the Redwings have two or four guys scoring and the Pens have two or four lines scoring.  There's lots of names on the Pens scoring sheet.

What that means come the cup is hard to say, and I'm not willing to make any predictions either way off of it.

Go look at NHL.com.

Top 30 +/-
Det has 10
Pit has 11

Top 12 +/- (because position 8-12 are all tied at +6 and 9,11 and 12 are Pens with 1 Wing in that group)
Det has 6
Pit has 4

Five of the top 6 are Wings.  Holmstrom is not in the top 12 (he is at +5).  Besides, the argument addressed by the +/- was regarding the defensive responsibility of Zetterberg/Datsyuk versus Crosby/Malkin.

I will grant you that it implies a greater balance of scoring for the Pens though.

[Rowdy]

The Pens are looking to me like the early 80's Oilers.  It will be interesting as an Oilers fan to see if a team can assemble and maintain that kind of talent in the economic conditions of today's NHL.

Pens over Wings in 6.

This is not the 80s NHL.  The Pens do not have the defense to stay with the Wings.  They have all kinds of offensive talent but the Wings match them there.  The problem the Pens will run into is the same one every other team to play Detroit has, Zet and Dat are just as committed to playing defense as they are offense.  As is every line the Wings throw out there.  I am just short of brash enough to pick the sweep.  Wings in 5.

side note:  I really really hope that Ozgood gets 12 wins in a row taking that record from Roy but that is a long way off.

Spoken like someone who never watched the Oilers play.  Defense?  Who cares?  Score 8 goals and you don't need defense.  And without getting into stats, etc, just as a long time hocky watcher - Crosby and Malkin > Zetterberg and Datsyuk by a large margin.

You keep your pair, I'll keep mine.  I like mine better.  I did watch the Oilers play, that is why I said this is not the 80s NHL.  What worked then will not work now.

Are you positing that a team of Gretz, Mess, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey, etc. wouldn't be successful in today's league?  Pfft.  They would dominate in any era.  They came into a league that was defence first in the late 70's early 80's.  The "80's NHL" that you're talking about was a direct result of the Oilers dominance.  If the Pens have success with a similar style, you can bet other teams with follow the trend (actually this trend has already started, it could be argued that the Pens are following the trend rather than starting it). 

[kratz]

Why did this thread have to stop being fun?

[The Meal]

Why did this thread have to stop being fun?

I think it was at the Wings Fans/Yankees Fans comparison.  Stuff got a bit personal for some at that point.

The Detroit/Pittsburgh finals look to be exciting for lots of reasons, but the Malkin-Crosby/Zetterberg-Datsyuk competition-within-the-competition would seem to be extra promising.

It's tough for fans to compare Eastern and Western teams, as the teams don't play a lot of cross-conference games, and the fans tend to not watch a lot of out-of-conference games (or maybe I'm not the norm — I don't tend to watch nearly as many games out East as I do from the West).

Detroit's puck possession style makes it difficult to predict what their games will look like.  When I overlay their game on top of what I've seen of the Pens this year, I end up in the same place as Remus and MHS.  But the reality is that Detroit has been playing at their top level for many weeks now, and as a fan, I know that they're a streaky team -- just as likely to have the winged wheel fall off as to totally decimate the opposition.

If both teams play the Finals like I've seen them play in the Conference Finals, I see Detroit in five.  Yeah, you can call me out for homerism, but I'm willing to stick my neck out there with this one.  When Detroit's *on* they're pretty unstopable.  But no guarantees that they'd be *on*.

What I do know is that it should be a great finals for the fans, even those folks watching from out-of-market.

[LordMortis]

It's tough for fans to compare Eastern and Western teams, as the teams don't play a lot of cross-conference games, and the fans tend to not watch a lot of out-of-conference games (or maybe I'm not the norm — I don't tend to watch nearly as many games out East as I do from the West).

I don't count so much because I didn't start watching hockey this year until March.  I thought I had sworn it off after watching the playoffs last year but as it turns out I am weak...  Even then I never see Eastern conference games.  I don't know the players or the play styles or the coaches or anything.  So I got and will continue to have nothing.

[kratz]

I think the final will have some really great hockey... and it would honestly be nice if it went to 7 and was a real nailbiter, but... yeah... I'm sticking with Wings in 5.  I just think they've got it at the moment... three goal scorers that are on fire, a goalie I think they *play* better with, and the best defenseman in the NHL.

[ScubaV]

In an extremely close game, Detroit got robbed on that no-goal call.  Referees: if you going to do a make-up call for something you screwed up earlier in a series or game, at least choose an incident that's a close-call.  That was not close; it was a blatantly legitimate goal.  Good job scrub!

[ScubaV]

And Dallas scores a legitimate goal of their own, except by the previous standard, that should have not only been no goal, but goalie interference to boot.

[MHS]

And Dallas scores a legitimate goal of their own, except by the previous standard, that should have not only been no goal, but goalie interference to boot.

No shit.  The bias against Holmstrom is ridiculous, especially in this series so far.  The blatant chops on his legs uncalled (I swear you could drop a bomb on him and they wouldn't call it), the BS call last game when Turco stuck his leg out and then did the dive, resulting in a penalty for Homstrom, and now this.  I'm a big believer in the philosophy that some calls go your way and some don't and you need to just make your chances no matter what, but geez. 

[ScubaV]

And Dallas escapes with an uncalled high stick on their 3rd goal.  That said, full props to their team for coming out hard and playing desperate.  I fully expect Detroit to close this out at home, and hopefully this game can prep them for what should be a tough Finals.

[Kagath]

Christ I hope they get some better referees for the game 5.

[LordMortis]

Add the Wings win three to two?  I'm really not sure what happened tonight.  Such is life but if life continues this way I'll remember why I swore off the NHL last year.  Sorry Koz.  Bad calls happened but consistant game changing bad calls make me think that I am not cut out to watch the post season.

[chaosraven]

Meh. Shit happens.

On to game 5!!!

[kratz]

Yeah, I wonder if that goal not getting canceled would've affected the overall outcome just due to people being pissed...  maybe not.  The Stars definitely stepped it up... which is probably good so the Wings don't get complacent and get a big shock when they hit the Penguins.

[Lee]

I wish Dallas would have lost tonight. I just want this series to be over so we can get on to the Pens and Wings.

At least tonight's game was entertaining. And yeah that was a goal.

[Canuck]

Did the Pens wrap there series up or is it still going on?

[Lee]

Did the Pens wrap there series up or is it still going on?

3-0 still. But it's inevitable, they are a much better team than Philly.

[CrayolaSmoker]

Christ I hope they get some better referees for the game 5.

IIRC, once the playoffs start, each series is assigned a specific reffing team for the duration.

[kratz]

I guess the worst case scenario of the Wings dropping a game is that we get to watch more hockey.

I think my wife would call that a minus, but... I call it a plus!

[chaosraven]

I guess the worst case scenario of the Wings dropping a game is that we get to watch more hockey.

I think my wife would call that a minus, but... I call it a plus!

As we have Game of Thrones scheduled for Saturday it is causing an issue in how many games we get to play...

[ScubaV]

Eeugh, that was an ugly game.  For the first time in this series I am genuinely concerned.  Game 4 was a fluke that had as much to do with the referees as the teams.  Game 5 was not.  Dallas outplayed Detroit on the ice, even if not on the stat sheet.  The Wings had tons of missed passes, turnovers, and defensive mental breakdowns that lead to scoring opportunities.  Dallas played calm and collected.  Detroit played like a nervous first time playoff team.  Babcock needs to slap some people in the head.

I still can't see Dallas taking both of the next two games, but I wonder what impact this might have for the Cup finals, at least on a physical level.

[rshetts2]

Not worried.  I expected Dallas to put a game like this together.  Turco was the star though, 2 goals were off outlet passes he made past detroits defense and he was great in goal.   I figure Babcock will bust thier asses a bit and then they will come out and put up 6 goals on Dallas.

[Lee]

Haha! Nice mistake by Biron! Looks like the Pens are going to do what the Wings couldn't.

Side note, that Edge commercial was pretty good when the play-offs started. Not so much now.

[Remus West2]

How large does that stolen goal by the officials loom if this goes 7?

[godhugh]

How large does that stolen goal by the officials loom if this goes 7?

About as large as the one the refs took from the Stars in Game 1.

[Arkon]

Bring on the Wings or the Stars.  Win or Loose the Pens will put up an awesome fight and the games should be incredibly fun to watch.

Is Franzen going to be able to make it back?  I have heard rumors he may be out the rest of the playoffs... if so that is a big blow to the Wings, would be like the Pens loosing Malone.

[Remus West2]

Bring on the Wings or the Stars.  Win or Loose the Pens will put up an awesome fight and the games should be incredibly fun to watch.

Is Franzen going to be able to make it back?  I have heard rumors he may be out the rest of the playoffs... if so that is a big blow to the Wings, would be like the Pens loosing Malone.

He is out indefinately.  The paper reports that he no longer has recurring headaches but that he is still not cleared to practice (or, obviously, play).

[leo8877]

Well I'm glad Dallas lost.  Now I really don't know who to watch.  I'll be in Hawaii for the finals watching at like 10 AM.

[Arnir]

Well I'm glad Dallas lost.  Now I really don't know who to watch.  I'll be in Hawaii for the finals watching at like 10 AM.

I'm in a similar boat.  I really could care less who wins now.  I just hope the games are better than the many sleepers of this last round.