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Author Topic: Hetz, it's time for us to come together for a cause  (Read 1692 times)
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jblank
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« on: March 29, 2007, 04:48:55 PM »

Best Buy is apparently shipping a lot of their next gen DVDs back to their suppliers.

From AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=826423&page=1

Quote
today at my store we sent back all but 30 titles to our district office, it was a MAJOR cutback to almost NO titles on the floor...

We did the same with blu-ray as well...

This is not doom and gloom but MOST of those titles weren't really selling and they were taking up space. I spoke with the media manager and it is par for the course.... STILL sad but it is par.

Anyone see anything similar today?

Quote
After college I headed over to my local Best Buy (that opened only several months ago) and to my surprise both the HD DVD and Blu-ray sections seemed to be gutted.

Before this, they had each section filled case spine out with each format with maybe three or four of the more popular titles with their covers face out. Now each section has large gaps with many of the titles face out. It's like they picked up whole sections of discs and got rid of them. I was going to get the Happy Feet and Field of Dreams HD DVD. Even though I know they had three copies of FoD last week, it was completely missing today. Though they did have about 10 copies of Happy Feet and both the Children of Men DVD and HD DVD/DVD Combo were sitting together in the new release section, so that was nice. In the BD section they still had T2, but the copies of The Terminator they had last week were gone. They had plenty of copies of Casino Royale and Rocky Balboa on BD as well. I looked by the players, the Toshiba HD DVD players still had a few titles resting above them, but I noticed the 4 or 5 copies of the Grand Prix HD DVD (that was $21) were gone too. The broken Samsung BD player that's been an aisle endcap for months that had BDs on cardboard racks last week only had 2 copies each of Saw 3 and Open Season throw about. I checked around the regular DVDs and HDTVs, nothing. It appears they got rid of all the "secondary" sellers on both formats. Funny thing is as I was scanning around I noticed they still had a bunch of UMDs.

Seeing this really solidified to me that while people can throw up all the Internet-filled percentage numbers they want, the interest from brick and mortar locations (where it really counts) in both formats appears to be in the best terms very "stressed."

Quote
I just checked out the Westwood Best Buy in Los Angeles.

Right away I noticed they were missing about 40% HD DVD and 30% Blu-Ray.

They each had their own Rack. Now instead of full racks, they are sparsely filled. I'm not sure what the point was, maybe they'll combine them into one rack down the line.

I asked about it and the blue shirt said they sent some back to the warehouse today. He said they cut back on the duplicates. I then asked why they still had 8 Poseidons. He had no answer.

They did have this week's new releases though. I had the urge to buy Children of Men, but I kept reminding myself that my Amazon order will be here tomorrow.

I don't mind them clearing out backstock or sending back 7 copies of The Perfect Storm, but when Best Buy of all places starts to cool on something that is in desperate need of a boost, it doesn't bode well. Kinda disappointed in BB.
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 04:56:06 PM »

Trying to get consumers to buy into a format war is always a tough sell.
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Soulchilde
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2007, 04:58:20 PM »

The justification for u[grading to Blu-Ray or HD-DVD just isn't there.  To be honest I'm happy with DVDs and probably won't look to upgrading til I have a TV that supports 1080p.  I love my 1080i TV and see no reason for upgrading at the moment.

DVD took of once the players came down in price and the same thing will probably happen one Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players drop in price
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2007, 05:03:28 PM »

Quote from: Soulchilde on March 29, 2007, 04:58:20 PM

The justification for u[grading to Blu-Ray or HD-DVD just isn't there.  To be honest I'm happy with DVDs and probably won't look to upgrading til I have a TV that supports 1080p.  I love my 1080i TV and see no reason for upgrading at the moment.

DVD took of once the players came down in price and the same thing will probably happen one Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players drop in price

I think it people would pay attention, they could justify it, but right now, both sides, until recently, haven't done a good job of marketing the technology. HD DVD and Blu-Ray are both spectacular in 720p and 1080i, so waiting on a 1080p TV isn't gonna give you THAT much of an improvement.

Agree 100% with your second point, the prices are way too high.
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Hetz
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2007, 05:09:13 PM »

Quote from: jblank on March 29, 2007, 05:03:28 PM

Quote from: Soulchilde on March 29, 2007, 04:58:20 PM

The justification for u[grading to Blu-Ray or HD-DVD just isn't there.  To be honest I'm happy with DVDs and probably won't look to upgrading til I have a TV that supports 1080p.  I love my 1080i TV and see no reason for upgrading at the moment.

DVD took of once the players came down in price and the same thing will probably happen one Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players drop in price

I think it people would pay attention, they could justify it, but right now, both sides, until recently, haven't done a good job of marketing the technology. HD DVD and Blu-Ray are both spectacular in 720p and 1080i, so waiting on a 1080p TV isn't gonna give you THAT much of an improvement.

Agree 100% with your second point, the prices are way too high.

I agree that prices are way too high. Only Wal-Mart seems to have them for less than MSRP. Best Buy and Circuit charge nearly full retail for them which is just nuts.

I also agree that 720p and 1080i look fantastic on both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. It's really too bad because of this format war that more people are not able to enjoy it. I really wish that this format war never would have happened, it's just driven by greed on both sides.  icon_frown
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« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2007, 05:10:50 PM »

Exactly, but even then, the marketing, until now, has been HORRID. Neither side has helped their cause by just throwing the product out there, and not informing people what it is.
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2007, 05:15:07 PM »

My Best Buy's selection of HD-DVD/Blu-Ray is flat out terrible.  I don't even try anymore.

gellar
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2007, 05:15:23 PM »

The benefits for DVD over the prevailing technology at the time (VHS) were pretty enormous.  The big thing for a lot of people was not having to rewind anymore.  I don't know how many times I heard "You should check this out.  They fit an entire movie on a CD and you don't have to rewind them anymore!"  Not only that but you could easily skip around the DVD, they were smaller and they seemed like the next natural thing for movies.  Enhanced functionality.  Since people had already gotten used to CD's for music, a disc for movies made sense.  It was intuitive.  The improvement in clarity was also important and (this is key) was very noticeable without buying a new TV.

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are great and all but I can't see them replacing DVD's anytime soon, maybe not at all.  The benefits (primarily enhanced resolution, not functionality) just aren't there for the average Joe consumer.  Maybe 10 years from now when we all have HDTV's but now or in the next year or two?  Nah.  I think we're looking at Laser Discs for the new millenium.
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2007, 05:18:14 PM »

There is no way I'm spending that kind of money on a player.

...especially when I might back the wrong horse.
...especially when the movies are so expensive.
...especially when the difference is really not *that* impressive (and yeah, it's better, I can tell, but... you know).
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2007, 05:21:23 PM »

Speaking as a guy that has a 1080p Television and a Blu-Ray player(PS3):

The different IS enormous between the two.    DVD's look blurry as hell to me now.
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2007, 05:22:46 PM »

I agree, the difference in quality is quite large (and I only have a 1080i TV). 

I do understand the cost/format war argument though - once one side is chosen and prices drop as they should, people will adopt.  Right now, it's still early.

gellar
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2007, 05:24:12 PM »

Quote from: Kratz on March 29, 2007, 05:18:14 PM

There is no way I'm spending that kind of money on a player.

...especially when I might back the wrong horse.
...especially when the movies are so expensive.
...especially when the difference is really not *that* impressive (and yeah, it's better, I can tell, but... you know).

The difference IS that impressive, in fact, it's the biggest selling point.
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2007, 05:28:13 PM »

The difference between regular CD audio and DVD-Audio or SACD is pretty enormous as well.  Yet I think CD's are being replaced by downloadable music (which is typically a poorer quality), not higher quality newer disc formats.

I think the average consumer just isn't going to care that much about new disc-based movie formats.
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2007, 05:30:31 PM »

Quote from: warning on March 29, 2007, 05:28:13 PM

The difference between regular CD audio and DVD-Audio or SACD is pretty enormous as well.  Yet I think CD's are being replaced by downloadable music (which is typically a poorer quality), not higher quality newer disc formats.

I think the average consumer just isn't going to care that much about new disc-based movie formats.

That's a bit of a different animal though.  For music - in losing quality, the consumer does GAIN portability, lower cost, and convenience.  Also, people's ears are generally not as good as people's eyes particularly when they are listening through headphones.  Sound quality is not nearly as important there as it is when you're listening through a set of badass speakers or something.

gellar
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2007, 05:33:16 PM »

Quote from: gellar on March 29, 2007, 05:30:31 PM

Quote from: warning on March 29, 2007, 05:28:13 PM

The difference between regular CD audio and DVD-Audio or SACD is pretty enormous as well.  Yet I think CD's are being replaced by downloadable music (which is typically a poorer quality), not higher quality newer disc formats.

I think the average consumer just isn't going to care that much about new disc-based movie formats.

That's a bit of a different animal though.  For music - in losing quality, the consumer does GAIN portability, lower cost, and convenience.  Also, people's ears are generally not as good as people's eyes particularly when they are listening through headphones.  Sound quality is not nearly as important there as it is when you're listening through a set of badass speakers or something.

gellar

Well you notice that more places are starting to let you download movies now, even at HD. Especially with the xbox's new 120gig model coming out even if it is insanely expensive. You can just download the move in HD. So what is the point of Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs now?
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2007, 05:35:47 PM »

Quote from: SkyLander on March 29, 2007, 05:33:16 PM

Quote from: gellar on March 29, 2007, 05:30:31 PM

Quote from: warning on March 29, 2007, 05:28:13 PM

The difference between regular CD audio and DVD-Audio or SACD is pretty enormous as well.  Yet I think CD's are being replaced by downloadable music (which is typically a poorer quality), not higher quality newer disc formats.

I think the average consumer just isn't going to care that much about new disc-based movie formats.

That's a bit of a different animal though.  For music - in losing quality, the consumer does GAIN portability, lower cost, and convenience.  Also, people's ears are generally not as good as people's eyes particularly when they are listening through headphones.  Sound quality is not nearly as important there as it is when you're listening through a set of badass speakers or something.

gellar

Well you notice that more places are starting to let you download movies now, even at HD. Especially with the xbox's new 120gig model coming out even if it is insanely expensive. You can just download the move in HD. So what is the point of Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs now?

A few things.  I have a gigantic motherfucking internet pipe and I totally lack the patience to download the movie in HD; it's too slow.  Also, the limits to watching it over XBL are annoying (start within 14 days, finish within 24 hours of start).  Storage is also an issue, as I'm not dumb enough to buy a $180 HD for my 360.  Price is also a factor.

The difference between a 5MB MP3 and a 2.5GB movie is fairly significant.

gellar
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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2007, 05:38:12 PM »

After watching Kung-Fu Hustle in Blu-Ray, for action movies, I'm strictly going Blu-Ray.  Watching Fight Club on normal DVD afterwards was like streaming a low-res version of a video as opposed to a high-res.  I was pretty amazed.

Sorry to hear they're pulling those titles, but I wouldn't expect HD-DVD or Blu-Ray to get popular for another year or two anyway.
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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2007, 05:38:25 PM »

Quote from: jblank on March 29, 2007, 05:24:12 PM

Quote from: Kratz on March 29, 2007, 05:18:14 PM

There is no way I'm spending that kind of money on a player.

...especially when I might back the wrong horse.
...especially when the movies are so expensive.
...especially when the difference is really not *that* impressive (and yeah, it's better, I can tell, but... you know).

The difference IS that impressive, in fact, it's the biggest selling point.

I have HDTV.  I've seen HD movies... yes, it looks better.   It is not that* impressive.

*So impressive that it warrants the costs and risk of backing the wrong horse at this point... which I thought was clear in my post, but... maybe not.
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2007, 05:39:31 PM »

Quote from: Kratz on March 29, 2007, 05:38:25 PM

Quote from: jblank on March 29, 2007, 05:24:12 PM

Quote from: Kratz on March 29, 2007, 05:18:14 PM

There is no way I'm spending that kind of money on a player.

...especially when I might back the wrong horse.
...especially when the movies are so expensive.
...especially when the difference is really not *that* impressive (and yeah, it's better, I can tell, but... you know).

The difference IS that impressive, in fact, it's the biggest selling point.

I have HDTV.  I've seen HD movies... yes, it looks better.   It is not that* impressive.

*So impressive that it warrants the costs and risk of backing the wrong horse at this point... which I thought was clear in my post, but... maybe not.

Kratz, the difference between HD Cable and HD-DVD or Blu-Ray is pretty significant on it's own.  It looks a hell of a lot better.

gellar
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2007, 05:46:09 PM »

Quote from: SkyLander on March 29, 2007, 05:33:16 PM

Quote from: gellar on March 29, 2007, 05:30:31 PM

Quote from: warning on March 29, 2007, 05:28:13 PM

The difference between regular CD audio and DVD-Audio or SACD is pretty enormous as well.  Yet I think CD's are being replaced by downloadable music (which is typically a poorer quality), not higher quality newer disc formats.

I think the average consumer just isn't going to care that much about new disc-based movie formats.

That's a bit of a different animal though.  For music - in losing quality, the consumer does GAIN portability, lower cost, and convenience.  Also, people's ears are generally not as good as people's eyes particularly when they are listening through headphones.  Sound quality is not nearly as important there as it is when you're listening through a set of badass speakers or something.

gellar

Well you notice that more places are starting to let you download movies now, even at HD. Especially with the xbox's new 120gig model coming out even if it is insanely expensive. You can just download the move in HD. So what is the point of Blu-Ray and HD-DVDs now?

Even with the format war, there are only two pieces of hardware necessary to get all of the content.  If this stupid format war gets resolved, it will be reduced to a single point of entry, as it should be.

Want downloadable HD content?  360 doesn't cover all of the content producers- probably need an Apple TV as well.  And a Netflix or Tivo subscription once their VOD services start offering HD.  And with the last two you'll need extra hardware to get that content to your entertainment system. 

Technophiles may be willing to put up with this mess and sort through it, but the mass market won't.  I'm sure we'll see someone solve this and consolidate everyone, but it hasn't happened yet and may not for the next year or two but in the meantime, HD optical formats have already been on the market for a year. 
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2007, 05:52:35 PM »

At what point, if Blue Ray goes the way of Betamax, will Sony pull Blue Ray out of the PS3 and lower the price 200.00?
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2007, 05:52:55 PM »

Is there some licensing issue or something that stops them from packaging ordinary DVDs (which cost, what, 50 cents to manufacture?) along with Blu-ray discs?  Along with people worrying about jumping on the wrong HD horse, I think some buyers are going to hold back on regular DVD purchases that they know they'd want to replace in a few years.

If I had a choice of spending $20 on DVD Casino Royale or $30 on DVD+Blu-ray Casino Royale, I could see myself getting tempted by the latter knowing that I'll someday buy a PS3 for Final Fantasy or whatever.
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2007, 05:57:40 PM »

Quote from: ATB on March 29, 2007, 05:52:35 PM

At what point, if Blue Ray goes the way of Betamax, will Sony pull Blue Ray out of the PS3 and lower the price 200.00?

Um, never?  They aren't going to suddenly make their entire existing library unavailable to new customers, screwing all of those devs and publishers in the process.  Bluray can die as a movie format but that doesn't prevent it from being acceptable for delivering games on.  Proprietary formats aren't exactly new in the video game field. 

Sony's made their bed and now they have to lie in it.  If they really can't proceed under the current hardware lineup then they'll pretty much have to bow out early and rush the "Playstation 4" into production. 
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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2007, 05:59:12 PM »

Quote from: ATB on March 29, 2007, 05:52:35 PM

At what point, if Blue Ray goes the way of Betamax, will Sony pull Blue Ray out of the PS3 and lower the price 200.00?

I doubt Blue Ray will wind up like Betamax mostly because I don't think either format will successfully replace DVD.  I think they'll both remain boutique items like the Laser Disc.
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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2007, 06:01:32 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on March 29, 2007, 04:56:06 PM

Trying to get consumers to buy into a format war is always a tough sell.

Very true. DVD didn't truly take off 'till after DIVX was declared dead (for those of us that remember DIVX before it was simply a codex  icon_wink ).
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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2007, 06:03:20 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on March 29, 2007, 05:52:55 PM

Is there some licensing issue or something that stops them from packaging ordinary DVDs (which cost, what, 50 cents to manufacture?) along with Blu-ray discs?  Along with people worrying about jumping on the wrong HD horse, I think some buyers are going to hold back on regular DVD purchases that they know they'd want to replace in a few years.

HD-DVD already sort of does this with combo disks that have both on the same disk.

It's a bit of a pain in the ass though since there is a lot more that comes into play than just the .50 manufacture cost.  Like almost any piece of content, there are media and licensing deals for DVDs that have people get certain payouts on the number of units sold.  So by including a DVD in every Bluray box you're going to be paying extra royalties on every unit sold whether those DVDs get used or not.  And if you make the DVD a separate disk you've also just opened up a huge new used market where people who only need the HD format disk can sell the DVD dirt cheap to others which is going to impede normal DVD sales. 

So you've got to factor in all of that and raise the cost of the package to compensate, and people are already complaining about high software prices for these formats.
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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2007, 06:04:35 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on March 29, 2007, 05:52:55 PM

Is there some licensing issue or something that stops them from packaging ordinary DVDs (which cost, what, 50 cents to manufacture?) along with Blu-ray discs?  Along with people worrying about jumping on the wrong HD horse, I think some buyers are going to hold back on regular DVD purchases that they know they'd want to replace in a few years.

If I had a choice of spending $20 on DVD Casino Royale or $30 on DVD+Blu-ray Casino Royale, I could see myself getting tempted by the latter knowing that I'll someday buy a PS3 for Final Fantasy or whatever.

My Casino Royale Blu-ray only cost $23 from Walmart.    It was a no brainer for me for real!
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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2007, 06:09:40 PM »

Too expensive right now. Maybe in another couple of years. I don't care which format wins.

And I'll never be downloading any movies.
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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2007, 06:57:45 PM »

I can count on my fingers how many times i've sold either an HD or Blu-Ray disc in the year or so we've been stocking them at Wal-Mart. They are simply dead space right now.
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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2007, 07:14:25 PM »

Quote from: CrayolaSmoker on March 29, 2007, 06:01:32 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on March 29, 2007, 04:56:06 PM

Trying to get consumers to buy into a format war is always a tough sell.

Very true. DVD didn't truly take off 'till after DIVX was declared dead (for those of us that remember DIVX before it was simply a codex  icon_wink ).

Actually, wasn't DVD already somewhat firmly established before DIVX come out?  I kind of recall it being a sort of "me too" item, and it also had the great ability to only let you watch a movie a limited number of times.  It was pretty much a joke, if I remember properly.
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« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2007, 07:18:40 PM »

DIVX was a huge concern for potential consumers.  While the idea was laughable and obviously consumer unfriendly, it did have the backing of some studios since they would stand to benefit more than they would from DVD.

I bought my first DVD player in Summer 1998 and I think only about half the studios were onboard with the format at that point (New Line, Warners, Universal, and Sony IIRC).  Paramount, Disney, and Fox were all DIVX exclusive at one point. 
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« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2007, 07:29:16 PM »

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« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2007, 07:43:01 PM »

Quote from: CSL on March 29, 2007, 06:57:45 PM

I can count on my fingers how many times i've sold either an HD or Blu-Ray disc in the year or so we've been stocking them at Wal-Mart. They are simply dead space right now.

I find that really hard to believe.    Thre Blu Rays in Birmingham, Alabama are snapped up.   I have to get there the release day or they are sold out.   Casino Royale was gone within a couple hours.    Open Season gets sold out every time they get it in -- and I still haven't been able to find a copy.
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 07:45:01 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on March 29, 2007, 07:43:01 PM

Quote from: CSL on March 29, 2007, 06:57:45 PM

I can count on my fingers how many times i've sold either an HD or Blu-Ray disc in the year or so we've been stocking them at Wal-Mart. They are simply dead space right now.

I find that really hard to believe.    Thre Blu Rays in Birmingham, Alabama are snapped up.   I have to get there the release day or they are sold out.   Casino Royale was gone within a couple hours.    Open Season gets sold out every time they get it in -- and I still haven't been able to find a copy.

There is simply one answer for this... Blu Ray insider employees who buy the movies to artificially inflate numbers!

 ninja2
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2007, 08:03:13 PM »

Quote from: gellar on March 29, 2007, 05:30:31 PM

Quote from: warning on March 29, 2007, 05:28:13 PM

The difference between regular CD audio and DVD-Audio or SACD is pretty enormous as well.  Yet I think CD's are being replaced by downloadable music (which is typically a poorer quality), not higher quality newer disc formats.

I think the average consumer just isn't going to care that much about new disc-based movie formats.

That's a bit of a different animal though.  For music - in losing quality, the consumer does GAIN portability, lower cost, and convenience.  Also, people's ears are generally not as good as people's eyes particularly when they are listening through headphones.  Sound quality is not nearly as important there as it is when you're listening through a set of badass speakers or something.

gellar

Think of the cost though; if MP3's cost right from the get-go with a decent DRM wrapped around it, I don't know how popular they would have been.

When it comes to HD movies BR and HDDVD are going to need to compete with sat/cable company broadcasts, and streaming / VOD. That isn't going to help the format wars; it's going to make them take a back seat.
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"If it weren't for Philo T. Farnsworth, inventor of television, we'd still be eating frozen radio dinners." - Johnny Carson
gellar
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« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2007, 08:04:37 PM »

If streaming / VOD figure their shit out and get it right, I totally agree.  I just haven't seen much of an indicator to that effect as of yet.

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« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2007, 10:23:06 PM »

Not surprised to see this news.  The price is just still way too high for popular consumption (I did notice that Toshiba's HD-DVD plaper is $350 on Amazon right now, though...getting there).  But after watching a Marketplace movie (Crank) the other night I can definitely say that I'm excited about HD content.  But the players need to be <$200 (closer to $100 is ideal) and the movie prices need to drop down to DVD prices (<$15 for new releases).

I certainly like my physical media because of the versatility.  When they can figure out how I can download a movie, watch it on my TV, load it on to a portable player, etc. then I'll buy in to digital distribution.  Right now it's just a nice way to grab an extra movie here and there.  Especially HD ones on Marketplace since I'm waiting on a clear format winner and the prices to come down.
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