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Author Topic: What will Obama's Scandals Be?  (Read 7795 times)
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #200 on: June 02, 2013, 08:35:07 PM »

Slow to get it Gratch? I don't care if he said it or not...  It could not be more accurate.
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« Reply #201 on: June 02, 2013, 08:58:42 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on June 02, 2013, 08:35:07 PM

Slow to get it Gratch?

Um...what?   saywhat

Quote
I don't care if he said it or not...  It could not be more accurate

Shocking news to us all, I'm sure.
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« Reply #202 on: June 03, 2013, 12:50:27 AM »

Eco is the best thing to happen to democrats and liberals wherever he goes. 

...and I'm not being facetious.
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« Reply #203 on: June 03, 2013, 01:07:40 AM »

Oh stop hep, you're too kind. 👍
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« Reply #204 on: June 03, 2013, 01:16:02 AM »

The best part is, he's probably not being facetious either.  icon_lol
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« Reply #205 on: June 04, 2013, 08:55:59 PM »

So, the claim is that 75 conservative groups were targeted by the IRS specifically because of the fact they were conservative, right?  Then I'm curious how you explain the other 226 groups that were also subjected to the same review?

Quote
The IRS office in Cincinnati which decides whether to exempt such groups from income tax singled out 72 of them for scrutiny because they were openly affiliated with the Tea Party movement, together with 24 others whose names included associated labels such as "patriot"...

However a further 226 other political groups were also placed in the same review whose affiliations were not immediately apparent from their name alone, which is often the case among liberal campaign groups.

So basically the IRS was doing their jobs by applying extra scrutiny to a whole bunch of organizations applying for tax-exempt status that might be politically affiliated.  Mainly because these groups were applying for a status which specifically required them to be non-policical "social welfare" groups.   Holy shit man, that's definitely an impeachment-worthy level of atrocity right there.  Makes Watergate look like child's play by comparison.  

Side note:  furthering my suspicion that this was an attempt by a woefully understaffed IRS to try and consolidate the review process is this tidbit:

Quote
The IRS did reveal there had been an explosion in groups of all political persuasion seeking to qualify for this type of tax exemption after a relaxation in campaign finance rules meant this would also allow them to keep the identity of their donors secret. In total 3,357 applications were made in 2012 compared with 1,735 in 2010 before the law changed.
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« Reply #206 on: June 06, 2013, 12:16:54 PM »

Hope you're not on Verizon like me, my entire family and 10s of millions of other people. Obama is listening.

Quote
The order, signed by Judge Roger Vinson, compels Verizon to produce to the NSA electronic copies of "all call detail records or 'telephony metadata' created by Verizon for communications between the United States and abroad" or "wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls".
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« Reply #207 on: June 06, 2013, 01:48:25 PM »

Does this fall under the actual good vs perceived bad argument? WH thinks so.

Quote
The White House says that gathering telephone records has been a "critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats," responding to a news report that the National Security Agency has been harvesting records from millions of Verizon customers since at least April. The information "allows counter-terrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities,

Hey, it's okay that we trample all over your privacy whenever we want, we might catch a bad guy talking to another bad guy who may be doing something that's possibly bad.
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« Reply #208 on: June 06, 2013, 01:58:32 PM »

Hasn't this been going on for years now?  Not saying I like it or approve of it, just curious what makes it today's atrocity du jour.
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« Reply #209 on: June 06, 2013, 02:12:30 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on June 06, 2013, 01:58:32 PM

Hasn't this been going on for years now?  Not saying I like it or approve of it, just curious what makes it today's atrocity du jour.


Quote
Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama.

The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.
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« Reply #210 on: June 06, 2013, 02:28:05 PM »

The Patriot Act is way too broad in its definitions.  While I think Obama and his administration need to be told to back off, I don't believe this is the problem of just one administration.  It was used in a similar fashion during the Bush years and it's just as bad now as it was then. 
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« Reply #211 on: June 06, 2013, 02:31:10 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 02:12:30 PM

Quote from: Gratch on June 06, 2013, 01:58:32 PM

Hasn't this been going on for years now?  Not saying I like it or approve of it, just curious what makes it today's atrocity du jour.


Quote
Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama.

The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.

Ah, thanks. 
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« Reply #212 on: June 06, 2013, 04:44:53 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on June 06, 2013, 02:31:10 PM

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 02:12:30 PM

Quote from: Gratch on June 06, 2013, 01:58:32 PM

Hasn't this been going on for years now?  Not saying I like it or approve of it, just curious what makes it today's atrocity du jour.


Quote
Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama.

The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.

Ah, thanks. 

Except that one time.
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« Reply #213 on: June 06, 2013, 05:38:17 PM »

Quote from: gellar on June 06, 2013, 04:44:53 PM

Quote from: Gratch on June 06, 2013, 02:31:10 PM

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 02:12:30 PM

Quote from: Gratch on June 06, 2013, 01:58:32 PM

Hasn't this been going on for years now?  Not saying I like it or approve of it, just curious what makes it today's atrocity du jour.


Quote
Under the Bush administration, officials in security agencies had disclosed to reporters the large-scale collection of call records data by the NSA, but this is the first time significant and top-secret documents have revealed the continuation of the practice on a massive scale under President Obama.

The unlimited nature of the records being handed over to the NSA is extremely unusual. Fisa court orders typically direct the production of records pertaining to a specific named target who is suspected of being an agent of a terrorist group or foreign state, or a finite set of individually named targets.

Ah, thanks. 

Except that one time.

You're fine with it, I assume?
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« Reply #214 on: June 06, 2013, 05:39:48 PM »



 icon_wink
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« Reply #215 on: June 06, 2013, 05:49:46 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 05:38:17 PM

Quote from: gellar on June 06, 2013, 04:44:53 PM


You're fine with it, I assume?

I think his point is that this isn't the doing of one administration.  It's a continuation of previous ones.  You put this in a thread that would indicate that this is Obama's fault, but it should be in its own thread as it involves much more than just one administration.  This is a bipartisan issue, not a partisan one.
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« Reply #216 on: June 06, 2013, 06:06:18 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 06, 2013, 05:49:46 PM

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 05:38:17 PM

Quote from: gellar on June 06, 2013, 04:44:53 PM


You're fine with it, I assume?

I think his point is that this isn't the doing of one administration.  It's a continuation of previous ones.  You put this in a thread that would indicate that this is Obama's fault, but it should be in its own thread as it involves much more than just one administration.  This is a bipartisan issue, not a partisan one.

I agree and my  quote above shows clearly that bush started this...and it also shows that obama has clearly expanded it's reach and impact on the american citizenry. Also, the WH is playing defense against it NOW. So, it counts for this Admin!

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« Reply #217 on: June 06, 2013, 06:23:19 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 06:06:18 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 06, 2013, 05:49:46 PM

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 05:38:17 PM

Quote from: gellar on June 06, 2013, 04:44:53 PM


You're fine with it, I assume?

I think his point is that this isn't the doing of one administration.  It's a continuation of previous ones.  You put this in a thread that would indicate that this is Obama's fault, but it should be in its own thread as it involves much more than just one administration.  This is a bipartisan issue, not a partisan one.

I agree and my  quote above shows clearly that bush started this...and it also shows that obama has clearly expanded it's reach and impact on the american citizenry. Also, the WH is playing defense against it NOW. So, it counts for this Admin!



So a couple of things:

1) I am fine with it since it has literally zero impact on me.  I don't concern myself with things that don't directly affect my life.
2) I don't think Obama has really expanded the reach.  The procedure was set.  I don't think any administration has actually given back power already taken/granted by a previous administration.
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« Reply #218 on: June 06, 2013, 06:24:34 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 06:06:18 PM


I agree and my  quote above shows clearly that bush started this...and it also shows that obama has clearly expanded it's reach and impact on the american citizenry. Also, the WH is playing defense against it NOW. So, it counts for this Admin!

Also 2008 Obama explicitly ran on a platform opposing these sorts of abuses.  He doesn't get a "Get Out of Scandal Free" card just because the previous administration abused  power - we put him into office in hopes that he would act differently.

He hasn't.
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« Reply #219 on: June 06, 2013, 06:40:19 PM »

Sen. Paul Introduces Fourth Amendment Preservation and Protection Act of 2013

Quote
"In today's high-tech world, we must ensure that all forms of communication are protected. Yet government has eroded protecting the Fourth Amendment over the past few decades, especially when applied to electronic communications and third party providers," Sen. Paul said. "Congress has passed a variety of laws that decimate our Fourth Amendment protections. In effect, it means that Americans can only count on Fourth Amendment protections if they don't use e-mail, cell phones, the Internet, credit cards, libraries, banks, or other forms of modern finance and communications."

Too bad it will never pass.
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« Reply #220 on: June 06, 2013, 06:45:53 PM »

That's one thing that has really disappointed me.  One of the reasons I voted for Obama (beyond wanting to make sure that Dick Cheney never set foot inside an oval office again unless he built a version in his own house) was his promise of transparency.  I took that to mean an end...or even a lessening...of Bush era national "security" acts like the Patriot Act and their ambiguous boundaries.  

That being said, I hate to think about the logistics of dealing with an enemy that observes no traditional standards of warfare and thus is perceived to necessitate such action on the part of our security branches.  I'm not saying I agree with what our country has and is doing in the name of security, but I also don't view this as a League of Injustice meeting every Thursday in the Hall of Doom to plot the end of our freedoms.  

It's a group of politicians, security and military folks trying to fight off an enemy they can't hope to fully understand or predict.  Sometimes their plans seem almost Orwellian...until you realize that the sole intent isn't to keep one man, or one group in power (we have term limits, so let's not make ourselves into conspiratorial nutcases here); but rather to prevent another 9/11.  



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« Reply #221 on: June 06, 2013, 06:53:04 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 06, 2013, 06:45:53 PM

we have term limits

We do?
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« Reply #222 on: June 06, 2013, 06:55:11 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 06:53:04 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 06, 2013, 06:45:53 PM

we have term limits

We do?


Unfortunately, not you though.   icon_twisted

But yes, we have term limits.  Maybe not in EVERYTHING, but enough that we aren't in danger of creating an Emperor of the United States anytime soon.
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« Reply #223 on: June 06, 2013, 08:49:39 PM »

Oh, but Obama will get a 3rd term. I read it on Newsbusters.
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« Reply #224 on: June 06, 2013, 08:59:25 PM »

I will say it makes me nervous when family dynasties run the show.  Jeb Bush wants a crack at the WH from all accounts.  However, we're still not at the point where our leaders routinely hand off their positions to their kids after they croak or retire.
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« Reply #225 on: June 06, 2013, 09:23:46 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 06, 2013, 06:55:11 PM

But yes, we have term limits.  Maybe not in EVERYTHING, but enough that we aren't in danger of creating an Emperor of the United States anytime soon.

SCOTUS Life.

House/Senate: May as well be life.

President 2x 4 years.

So not  a single emperor, but many who act like them.
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« Reply #226 on: June 06, 2013, 10:24:30 PM »

Has the NY Times been bought by the Koch brothers too?!

President Obama’s Dragnet

Quote
Within hours of the disclosure that the federal authorities routinely collect data on phone calls Americans make, regardless of whether they have any bearing on a counterterrorism investigation, the Obama administration issued the same platitude it has offered every time President Obama has been caught overreaching in the use of his powers: Terrorists are a real menace and you should just trust us to deal with them because we have internal mechanisms (that we are not going to tell you about) to make sure we do not violate your rights.

Those reassurances have never been persuasive — whether on secret warrants to scoop up a news agency’s phone records or secret orders to kill an American suspected of terrorism — especially coming from a president who once promised transparency and accountability. The administration has now lost all credibility. Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it is given and very likely abuse it. That is one reason we have long argued that the Patriot Act, enacted in the heat of fear after the 9/11 attacks by members of Congress who mostly had not even read it, was reckless in its assignment of unnecessary and overbroad surveillance powers.
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« Reply #227 on: June 06, 2013, 10:41:45 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 09:23:46 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 06, 2013, 06:55:11 PM

But yes, we have term limits.  Maybe not in EVERYTHING, but enough that we aren't in danger of creating an Emperor of the United States anytime soon.

SCOTUS Life.

House/Senate: May as well be life.

President 2x 4 years.

So not  a single emperor, but many who act like them.

The only one in that list that's not an elected official are the justices.  

Unless the average lifespan of a human is 8 years, I'm not sure why you threw POTUS in there.  But let's reconvene on this in 2017.  If Obama's president still, I will give you that one.

House and Senate members have to go through a reelection process every 2 years and 6 years, respectively.  Yes, incumbents traditionally stay in their seats...but they don't just appoint themselves and become immoveable.  When they do remain in their seats, it's because they are reelected BY the people in their districts.  Hence the term "representative government".  

But don't let facts get in the way of a great sound bite.   icon_wink
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« Reply #228 on: June 07, 2013, 12:23:51 AM »

[isgrimnur]Senate is 6 year term[/isgrimnur]
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« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2013, 12:57:40 AM »

Thanks, fixed.  They're staggered so one third of the seats are up every two years, but each member serves 6.
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« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2013, 01:09:48 AM »

Quote from: ATB on June 06, 2013, 01:48:25 PM

Does this fall under the actual good vs perceived bad argument? WH thinks so.

Quote
The White House says that gathering telephone records has been a "critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats," responding to a news report that the National Security Agency has been harvesting records from millions of Verizon customers since at least April. The information "allows counter-terrorism personnel to discover whether known or suspected terrorists have been in contact with other persons who may be engaged in terrorist activities,

Hey, it's okay that we trample all over your privacy whenever we want, we might catch a bad guy talking to another bad guy who may be doing something that's possibly bad.


I spent years speaking out against President Bush's warrantless wiretapping program.  For example: here and here and especially here and here and also right here.

This is not warrantless wiretapping.  Unlike President Bush's pursuit of domestic espionage, this program *is* subject to judicial review by the FISA court, members of congress are *routinely* briefed on the program, and the Obama administration is operating within the bounds of power set by the legislature.  This authority can be rescinded at any time and has included a sunset clause all along, yet every time the Patriot Act comes up for renewal, Republicans have been the loudest champions of renewal.  

Regardless, I think most people would agree that I'm holding extremely consistent to my beliefs when I say that this sort of broad-spectrum spying on American civilians is unreservedly unacceptable and people should absolutely be outraged by it.  They should have been outraged all along.


But what's really interesting, ATB, is that I can't find one single instance where you've spoke out against this sort of domestic data mining and wiretapping before.  It's almost like your newfound interest in personal privacy rights, perfectly synchronized with similar revelations at so many right-wing media outlets, is incredibly full of crap.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2013, 05:49:11 AM »

Quote from: Teggy on June 07, 2013, 12:23:51 AM

[isgrimnur]Senate is 6 year term[/isgrimnur]

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« Reply #232 on: June 07, 2013, 12:45:33 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 07, 2013, 01:09:48 AM

But what's really interesting, ATB, is that I can't find one single instance where you've spoke out against this sort of domestic data mining and wiretapping before.

Seems like you stopped talking about it when a dem hit the whitehouse...other than to couch it as the fault of the previous repub administration. So same question to you only in reverse.  But as always, you're a balanced beacon of wisdom and light, AA.

And to actually answer your question, I was naive. 
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« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2013, 02:17:50 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on June 06, 2013, 10:24:30 PM

Has the NY Times been bought by the Koch brothers too?!

President Obama’s Dragnet

Quote
Within hours of the disclosure that the federal authorities routinely collect data on phone calls Americans make, regardless of whether they have any bearing on a counterterrorism investigation, the Obama administration issued the same platitude it has offered every time President Obama has been caught overreaching in the use of his powers: Terrorists are a real menace and you should just trust us to deal with them because we have internal mechanisms (that we are not going to tell you about) to make sure we do not violate your rights.

Those reassurances have never been persuasive — whether on secret warrants to scoop up a news agency’s phone records or secret orders to kill an American suspected of terrorism — especially coming from a president who once promised transparency and accountability. The administration has now lost all credibility. Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it is given and very likely abuse it. That is one reason we have long argued that the Patriot Act, enacted in the heat of fear after the 9/11 attacks by members of Congress who mostly had not even read it, was reckless in its assignment of unnecessary and overbroad surveillance powers.

And the NY Times realized they were being too harsh on their guy.  ninja
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« Reply #234 on: June 07, 2013, 02:21:02 PM »

Verizon isn't enough.

Quote
The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio and video chats, photographs, e-mails, documents, and connection logs that enable analysts to track foreign targets, according to a top-secret document obtained by The Washington Post.

The program, code-named PRISM, has not been made public until now. It may be the first of its kind. The NSA prides itself on stealing secrets and breaking codes, and it is accustomed to corporate partnerships that help it divert data traffic or sidestep barriers. But there has never been a Google or Facebook before, and it is unlikely that there are richer troves of valuable intelligence than the ones in Silicon Valley.

Equally unusual is the way the NSA extracts what it wants, according to the document: “Collection directly from the servers of these U.S. Service Providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple.”
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« Reply #235 on: June 07, 2013, 03:10:10 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on June 07, 2013, 02:17:50 PM

Quote from: Moliere on June 06, 2013, 10:24:30 PM

Has the NY Times been bought by the Koch brothers too?!

President Obama’s Dragnet

Quote
Within hours of the disclosure that the federal authorities routinely collect data on phone calls Americans make, regardless of whether they have any bearing on a counterterrorism investigation, the Obama administration issued the same platitude it has offered every time President Obama has been caught overreaching in the use of his powers: Terrorists are a real menace and you should just trust us to deal with them because we have internal mechanisms (that we are not going to tell you about) to make sure we do not violate your rights.

Those reassurances have never been persuasive — whether on secret warrants to scoop up a news agency’s phone records or secret orders to kill an American suspected of terrorism — especially coming from a president who once promised transparency and accountability. The administration has now lost all credibility. Mr. Obama is proving the truism that the executive will use any power it is given and very likely abuse it. That is one reason we have long argued that the Patriot Act, enacted in the heat of fear after the 9/11 attacks by members of Congress who mostly had not even read it, was reckless in its assignment of unnecessary and overbroad surveillance powers.

And the NY Times realized they were being too harsh on their guy.  ninja

That's a shame.
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hepcat
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« Reply #236 on: June 07, 2013, 03:26:30 PM »

of course it is, but at least they went back and attempted to avoid becoming Fox News-like in their reporting.
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« Reply #237 on: June 07, 2013, 04:06:46 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 07, 2013, 03:26:30 PM

of course it is, but at least they went back and attempted to avoid becoming Fox News-like in their reporting.

By trying to surreptitiously change the wording of their editorial to seem less harsh against Obama?
Or do you mean that "becoming Fox News-like" is anyone that is critical of Obama?
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« Reply #238 on: June 07, 2013, 04:15:13 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on June 07, 2013, 04:06:46 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 07, 2013, 03:26:30 PM

of course it is, but at least they went back and attempted to avoid becoming Fox News-like in their reporting.

By trying to surreptitiously change the wording of their editorial to seem less harsh against Obama?
Or do you mean that "becoming Fox News-like" is anyone that is critical of Obama?

They were still being critical after the edit.  But at least they're being reasonably fair about it.  Before the edit they used hyperbole that I would've expected from Fox.  
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:23:52 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #239 on: June 07, 2013, 04:26:08 PM »

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