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2401  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Expelled on: April 19, 2008, 05:49:41 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 04:48:09 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 04:02:55 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.

Actually, yes, it does.   Your facts are what I see as opinions.   My facts are what you see as opinions.

Uh, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact


Nice wikipedia link.   If it comes out of Michael Moore's head, it's dismissed as bullshit by me and you aren't going to convince me if you link the library of congress.
2402  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: I think I'm having a mid-life crisis. on: April 19, 2008, 04:23:15 PM
I agree.     If you do it...get a Harley.     The crotch rockets are gay.
2403  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Expelled on: April 19, 2008, 04:02:55 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.

Actually, yes, it does.   Your facts are what I see as opinions.   My facts are what you see as opinions.
2404  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Expelled on: April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 19, 2008, 03:29:19 PM

Most documentarys are one-sided.  I assume what you two are actually referring to is the tactic of ambush journalism that characterizes Moore's films as well as Expelled.  Sure - they have genetic similarities, but that doesn't mean that they're equivalent.  Moore is a ham, a provocateur, and can be irritating.  The Stein movie is just full of shit.  Sicko isn't a perfect movie, but it certainly doesn't make core fundamental misrepresentations like Expelled (apparently) does.
Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   I think that Moore's movies are full of shit.   So it depends on the perspective.
2405  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Debts, per President on: April 19, 2008, 03:22:59 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 02:41:32 AM

I just got back from a conference for a week.  Time to pick up the liberal banner and carry on!


 Tongue

Welcome back.   I hate all week conferences.    I don't like staying away from the wife and kids for that long of a stretch.... not to mention the bed and consoles.
2406  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Uncharted: Drake's Fortune on: April 19, 2008, 03:14:35 PM
This thing is actually pretty good.     I rented it through gamefly and am having fun with it.      thumbsup
2407  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: I hate cable newscasters on: April 19, 2008, 03:12:51 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 03:10:58 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:07:36 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 03:05:31 PM

Jesus, those legs.

Indeed.    I think we now officially agree on two things Lee...   love of photography and chicks.  smile nod

Hey, I may very well vote for McCain too. smile
And don't forget love of photography OF chicks.    So potentially 4 things?  smile
2408  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: I hate cable newscasters on: April 19, 2008, 03:07:36 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 03:05:31 PM

Jesus, those legs.

Indeed.    I think we now officially agree on two things Lee...   love of photography and chicks.  smile nod
2409  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: I hate cable newscasters on: April 19, 2008, 02:59:55 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 02:55:38 PM

I guess you like blondes.

Robin in the Morning on Headline News for the win! Except she is too damn perky, I want to slap her sometimes.

Oh there is no doubt, Robin is smokin:



I'd get her 'hot off the presses' any day of the week.   biggrin
2410  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: I hate cable newscasters on: April 19, 2008, 02:50:27 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 02:16:29 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 02:00:52 PM

Kiran....    nod

I KNEW you watched CNN! smile

She switched channels, and now when I go to check the news I look to see if it's her shift before going to Fox News.     

Overall fox news has the hottest newscasters by far.    There were a couple coworkers of the opposite political persuasion in the break room with me the other day, and they all switched it to Fox.   I asked why, and they said 'the chicks are HOT'.   Tongue
2411  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: I hate cable newscasters on: April 19, 2008, 02:00:52 PM
I cannot hate the cable newscaster that I have a huge crush on:




Kiran....    nod
2412  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Expelled on: April 19, 2008, 01:46:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 19, 2008, 04:24:45 AM

Boy, that's sure not true.

Actually, there is one Michael Moore movie that was panned.  Like Expelled, it's fiction.

I think he was referring to the one-sided documentary theme.      It's in vogue right now, just like Michael Moore's movies.    He wasn't referring to the ratings on rotten tomatos or critic ratings.
2413  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Expelled on: April 18, 2008, 11:04:00 PM
And I didn't even check the date of the OP.   Tongue
2414  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Expelled on: April 18, 2008, 11:03:19 PM

Quote from: Lee on February 14, 2008, 10:12:33 PM

I'll watch it, but it does look to be very one sided with the viewpoint of "Us poor Christians are persecuted in this country". I like BS, but jeez he was a bit over dramatic in that clip.

Well this is the current trend --  like Michael Moore's movies from the left.     These type documentaries are selling these days, so you'll get some from both sides.
2415  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: OO off line for a short time on: April 18, 2008, 11:57:08 AM

Quote from: Rip on April 18, 2008, 10:50:06 AM

All right I am going to post this before I read what I haven't caught of the thread. I'm fearful that the bitching might bring my mood down. Anyway here is a piece of what I wrote in a PM to SirReal after responding to gracious offers of assistance/resources etc in helping me deal with my current server failure crisis.

Quote
Thankfully I just cleared the final hurdle and am about to sprint for the finish. I just hope I still have enough gas. I had almost given up hope in trying to figure out the array striping but just when I was about to slink off to bed for my nightly three hour nap I hit the lottery. My nephew snarl and I just looked on dumbfounded for a few seconds when we saw the directory listing flash onto the screen. I think we were afraid to get our hopes up. But I have browsed the directory structure a little and I think we see light at the end of the tunnel.

I can say almost without a doubt that I have managed to reconstruct the two raid5 arrays that had failed. I won't post much else as I am rather tired, and I want to read the thread before I take a bath and head of to a busy Friday of working on other peoples crisis. If I have the energy I hope to restore the data to a VM and bring it online. All hosting accounts other than OO will resume operation. I will talk to staff about whether OO should come back fully right away or leave it read-only and proceed with the planned migration to a private VM of it's own. That could involve an upgrade to the forum software as well. My new fiber connection is supposed to be installed Monday, so I am looking forward to having a good week for a change.

edit: and then I forgot to press the post button before I went and read the thread. Well at least I had the right idea. Anyway here it is out of order..... icon_rolleyes


Thank you for what you are doing Rip.
2416  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Preorder changes on: April 18, 2008, 11:54:44 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 18, 2008, 04:19:37 AM

Quote from: Harkonis on April 18, 2008, 02:47:28 AM

Why don't you just pick up Mario Kart for the PS3 in case your Wii breaks. Tongue

cuz we all know the PS3 version of Mario Kart has serious framerate issues.

Jaggies
2417  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Preorder changes on: April 18, 2008, 12:51:06 AM
Well I went into gamestop today and cancelled my mario kart preorder and put the money toward GTA IV.      Mario Kart has the misfortune of launching the same week as GTA IV, and I know that if I bought both I'd wind up playing one and not the other.

So for now Wii Mario Kart has to wait.     I kept my Wii Fit preorder in tact, but I just couldn't do two major releases in one week --  especially in light of the current mixed reviews of Kart.

2418  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: I'm having FUN! Are you having fun? on: April 17, 2008, 03:58:21 AM
Quote
I never thought I'd be playing a shooter with my wife....

Bites tongue......   HARD.

 slywink
2419  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: OO off line for a short time on: April 17, 2008, 03:55:14 AM

Quote from: Blackhawk on April 17, 2008, 03:38:11 AM

Quote from: Arnir on April 17, 2008, 03:09:40 AM

I think it is a bit premature to eulogize OO just yet, but the lack of updates does seem to warrant some concern. 

I would agree.  We may need to discuss other alternatives once it either comes back or is confirmed dead, but it would be a mistake to do so already.  For one thing, Gedd has said that the most recent backup is at least a year old.  It is worth holding off just for the chance to reclaim all of that post history. 

By the way --  when i said I was taking a break from the R&P forum over there, this is NOT what I had in mind.
2420  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: General Grand Theft Auto IV Thread on: April 17, 2008, 01:47:53 AM

Quote from: wonderpug on April 17, 2008, 01:25:45 AM

UK TV ad for the game

Not spoilery at all, other than showing some of the locales in the game.

Anticipation through the roof.

I think I want to marry this game.
2421  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: MSNBC has no tact on: April 17, 2008, 01:22:23 AM
Is this finally the first topic we can all agree on???


 finger msnbc
2422  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: General Grand Theft Auto IV Thread on: April 16, 2008, 04:29:22 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 16, 2008, 04:19:47 AM

Quote from: msduncan on April 16, 2008, 04:15:20 AM

My secret fear is having my LAUNCH 360 crap out on me sometime in the next two weeks.

I'm still secretly considering changing my preorder to PS3 for that reason.   Am I paranoid?

didn't we already go through this?  icon_wink

I know I know.    I have to stay the course.     
2423  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: BARACKY! on: April 16, 2008, 04:19:27 AM

Quote from: Captain Caveman on April 16, 2008, 02:21:56 AM


What is amazing to me is that there is that much material and we aren't through the primary season yet!   Holy Moses this has been a long election year already.
2424  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: General Grand Theft Auto IV Thread on: April 16, 2008, 04:15:20 AM
My secret fear is having my LAUNCH 360 crap out on me sometime in the next two weeks.

I'm still secretly considering changing my preorder to PS3 for that reason.   Am I paranoid?
2425  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: OO off line for a short time on: April 16, 2008, 12:21:17 AM

Quote from: Remus West on April 14, 2008, 08:16:31 PM

Quote from: Purge on April 14, 2008, 08:04:48 PM

Quote from: Remus West on April 14, 2008, 07:29:39 PM

Quote from: Purge on April 14, 2008, 07:27:14 PM

I passed your sister, Lady Beet, just last week. I freaked out thinking it was blood.
Last week it was blood.  The next 3 weeks you should be safe. icon_eek

I think maybe the use of the word "passed" was missed on you, friend. slywink
In MSDuncan's honor.  "Roll Tide, roll." icon_eek
Thanks Remus.    Actually I was thinking this thread needed a little of this:



92,000 last year for the spring game.     78,200 this year for the spring game after a 7-6 season.       The tide is still high in Tuscaloosa.    #1 recruting class in the nation 2008.     We're getting back where we belong!   ROLL TIDE!
2426  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up? on: April 15, 2008, 11:20:25 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 15, 2008, 05:16:45 AM

I think skepticism is warranted given the history of the region.  The Israelis are certainly not going to stop killing leaders of Hamas and the various Fatah factions.  I'm just positing the idea that perhaps "exterminate all the brutes" is not going to achieve the best results.
I would agree with that and also say that the Fatah and Hamas aren't going to stop killing Israelis.
In other words, I don't think there is a peace process, agreement, plan, etc yet invented that will stop them from killing each other.   And this belief isn't based on religious convictions either -- it's based on the thought that these people have been killing each other for so long that neither side is going to stop.  Ever.   Or at least in our lifetimes.
2427  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 15, 2008, 11:17:04 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 15, 2008, 11:51:22 AM

Quote from: msduncan on April 15, 2008, 11:35:12 AM

I wonder if you'd be saying the same thing about a Republican candidate that was best buds with an outspoken hatemonger?    Would you really say 'who the fuck cares about his relationship with this racist, what's he going to do about .... .... ..."?

Do you see me starting threads about Hagee or any of the other hatemonger evangelical leaders?  No.  I don't care about them either.

Fair enough.

2428  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: "Dr." Phil bails out teen in beating case on: April 15, 2008, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 08:16:30 PM

I think Dr. Cpt. Caveman's point is that, once you get a PhD, those credentials don't lapse.

Brendan!    We agree on something.    smile

Dr. Phil has earned the right to be called Dr by completing his doctorate.    Dr's in English don't have to keep certifications current -- they earned the degree.
2429  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 15, 2008, 11:35:12 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 15, 2008, 05:13:10 AM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 15, 2008, 03:10:59 AM

I guess the point is that it was one of the best speeches on race that I have ever heard.  But speeches are speeches.  Obama is great at the speech but lacking on the action in the eyes of a lot of voters.  The fact is the guy has been Obama's personal pastor for almost twenty years and presided over his wedding.

One of the "best speeches on race" that you've ever heard, and yet it still didn't actually make a difference to you.  Who the fuck cares about who presided over his wedding?  I want to know how he gets health care to American citizens who don't have it.  I want to know how we get my friend back from fucking Afghanistan before the end of another tour of duty.  I want to know if he's going to obey the law and prohibit torture and warrantless wiretapping of American citizens.  Do you seriously think that Senator Obama hates America?  He gave a speech that explicitly addressed his relationship with Wright, that specifically discussed the sensitive nature of race relations in this country, and I'm beginning to think it was a waste of his time.  I'm at the point where I believe there is nothing he could do that would prevent the concern trolling.

I wonder if you'd be saying the same thing about a Republican candidate that was best buds with an outspoken hatemonger?    Would you really say 'who the fuck cares about his relationship with this racist, what's he going to do about .... .... ..."?

And nobody is saying Obama hates America.    We're saying it's interesting who he includes in his inner circle, and what that individual is saying.     I mean I don't know about you, but I don't hang out with racists and if one of the people I knew was as openly racist as Wright, he wouldn't be a friend or confidant for long.
2430  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: What do you look like? on: April 15, 2008, 02:58:37 AM

Quote from: dbt1949 on April 13, 2008, 05:22:21 PM

Here I am enjoying the back porch.

How did that goat get up there?    Admittedly I don't know much about goats, but are they good jumpers or something?
2431  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 15, 2008, 02:53:39 AM
Quote from: gellar

I'm still pretty sure you are missing the point.  Really, watch it again.  It will make you a better person, I promise.

gellar

I'm pretty sure if I watch it again, Obama will still have a long standing close relationship with an anti-white bigot.
2432  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 15, 2008, 02:46:38 AM

Quote from: gellar on April 15, 2008, 02:44:03 AM

Quote from: msduncan on April 15, 2008, 02:40:15 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:42:42 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 04:35:11 PM

It's sad but that is the way our society works these days.

So opt out of the bullshit and ignore trolling like this thread, and the equivalent in real-world trolling in the news media.  Ignore manufactured outrage.  Make rational decisions about your elected officials based on their positions, their promises, and their records.  Obama has a website with information on his health care plan, his plan for troops in the middle east, his plan for pulling the economy out of the Bush-generated recession, etc.  Conservatives want to push this fucking ridiculous Manchurian candidate meme with their whispers about his middle name, his childhood school in Jakarta, and his pastor.  Just opt out.

Wright continues to put himself in the news this way.    This is why these threads keep coming up.      This man was as close to Obama as a grandfather or even a father figure.    I think we are well within reason to question why this man continues to spout hatred and bigotry on the public scene, and ask why Obama hasn't left that church in the intrest of racial unity and his Presidential aspirations.     Speeches be damned.

No really, I'm pretty sure Obama covered all of this in his speech.  You should watch it again, I think you may have missed something.

gellar

Obama made a good speech that I still contend was nothing more than a fancy wrapped version of "Oh look at brother Wright!  He's wacky and crazy but we love him!".       It was a nut and cup game that took focus off the fact that Obama had and has a long term close relationship with an outspoken anti-white bigot.
2433  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 15, 2008, 02:45:04 AM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 07:02:00 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 14, 2008, 11:40:08 AM

Wright is up to his old tricks again over the weekend:

Quote
Wright, who is on sabbatical before retiring from Trinity United, said America’s mistreatment of blacks is the result of the founding fathers, who “planted slavery and white supremacy in the DNA of this republic.”

First reported by The Chicago Sun Times, Wright told mourners at the funeral that Thomas Jefferson, who partook in “pedophilia,” would also be considered unpatriotic these days because he wrote, “God would punish America for the sin of slavery.” He also quoted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who said that the U.S. has a “congenital birth defect.”

Slam founding fathers -- check.
Paint with broad brush -- check.
Inflammatory remarks  -- check.




Why should the founding fathers get any pass? I mean they did perpetuate the sin of slavery. Sure some of his comments are rather suspect and inflammatory but they have a strong strain of truth to them. The United States was born flawed and it would be rather wrong to say otherwise.

There was fierce debate in the Constitutional convention about slavery.     Some of the Representatives were indeed in favor of slavery.    There were a bunch that were not.    The framers decided to table the issue to be delt with later in the interest of actually passing a Constitution and saving the Union that was on shakey grounds due to Articles that were not adequate.

So yes...there were people in favor of slavery at the time.    But it was the times they lived in and operated in.   I'm more impressed that a good number of founders actually argued that it should be abolished at the time.    I don't think this is the same as a preacher bringing up something that not a single living soul has endured nor perpetrated upon another.      This is wedge to keep the masses in check, and to keep the power within certain elements of the black leadership.  (not Obama -- people like Wright and Jessie Jackson).
2434  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 15, 2008, 02:40:15 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:42:42 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 04:35:11 PM

It's sad but that is the way our society works these days.

So opt out of the bullshit and ignore trolling like this thread, and the equivalent in real-world trolling in the news media.  Ignore manufactured outrage.  Make rational decisions about your elected officials based on their positions, their promises, and their records.  Obama has a website with information on his health care plan, his plan for troops in the middle east, his plan for pulling the economy out of the Bush-generated recession, etc.  Conservatives want to push this fucking ridiculous Manchurian candidate meme with their whispers about his middle name, his childhood school in Jakarta, and his pastor.  Just opt out.

Wright continues to put himself in the news this way.    This is why these threads keep coming up.      This man was as close to Obama as a grandfather or even a father figure.    I think we are well within reason to question why this man continues to spout hatred and bigotry on the public scene, and ask why Obama hasn't left that church in the intrest of racial unity and his Presidential aspirations.     Speeches be damned.
2435  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Obama and gun rghts on: April 14, 2008, 11:48:05 AM
In response to the uproar over his comments about 'clinging' to guns last week, he appeared to try to clarify this weekend.   The problem is that he sidestepped the issue and used a very common tactic of specifically only mentioning guns in the context of hunters.     This is because he's very anti-guns other than single shot hunting firearms.      See quote from his statement:

Quote
“When people suggest I was somehow being elitist and demeaning hunters when I have repeatedly talked about the tradition that people pass on from generation to generation, hunters and sportsmen, and how I have consistently spoken about my respect for the Second Amendment. When people try to suggest that I was demeaning those traditions, then it sounds like there’s some politics being played.

This does not suprise me as his Illinois record reflected a vote against gun rights very nearly 100% of the votes.   He's been on record saying he wants to eliminate semi-automatic firearms.   

Anyway, as a guy that has watched this topic since the mid 80's, I can say that I've seen this tactic used before even by the Brady Institute --   claim you have good intentions by supporting 'hunters', but on the other hand support heavy gun regulation including bannation of most types of firearms.

2436  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Oops, he did it again! (wright) on: April 14, 2008, 11:40:08 AM
Wright is up to his old tricks again over the weekend:

Quote
Wright, who is on sabbatical before retiring from Trinity United, said America’s mistreatment of blacks is the result of the founding fathers, who “planted slavery and white supremacy in the DNA of this republic.”

First reported by The Chicago Sun Times, Wright told mourners at the funeral that Thomas Jefferson, who partook in “pedophilia,” would also be considered unpatriotic these days because he wrote, “God would punish America for the sin of slavery.” He also quoted Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who said that the U.S. has a “congenital birth defect.”

Slam founding fathers -- check.
Paint with broad brush -- check.
Inflammatory remarks  -- check.


2437  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Debts, per President on: April 13, 2008, 11:55:47 PM
Quote
Likewise, Kerry also came very close to beating Bush, who at the time was viewed as unbeatable.

???    What kind of alternate universe do you live in?

Polling was even throughout the contest in 2004.   It was widely thought among experts that Bush would fail to be reelected due to the unpopular war in Iraq -- at the time the violence was much worse than it is post-surge.     I never once read where Bush was ever, EVER thought to be unbeatable.
2438  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up? on: April 13, 2008, 11:21:43 PM

I have less of a problem including Hamas in talks than I do having a former President of the United States going to meet with a terror group without State Department or executive clearance to do so.     If any other private citizen did this, they'd be brought up on charges.

If the government, State Department, executive, etc decided that they were going to loop Hamas in -- fine.     I'd disagree with it, but I wouldn't have the same kind of problem with it as I do this.    For instance:   you'd see me loudly decrying the decision to do this if Obama did it next year (assuming he gets to be President), but at least then it's coming from the executive and thus an official act.      This is a private citizen deciding to meet with a current enemy of the United States without executive, congressional, or State Department approval.
2439  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Debts, per President on: April 13, 2008, 04:12:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 13, 2008, 03:45:48 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 13, 2008, 12:43:09 AM

Republicans have never embraced gun control. 

Plenty of republicans have embraced gun control.  I don't need to pull out Giuliani or Romney - the patron saint of right-wing lunacy, President Reagan, signed the Mulford Act as governor of California and supported the Brady Bill (gee - I wonder why.)  The less-awful iteration of a President Bush signed the assault weapons import ban in 1989.
Perhaps I should have said "as a party platform"
2440  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: Debts, per President on: April 13, 2008, 12:48:22 AM

Quote from: naednek on April 08, 2008, 02:22:51 AM

Lets all take a step back for a bit and cool off.

Don't make me lock Knightshade Dragon's thread biggrin  That will be a first and my eventual firing biggrin


It was also be hilarious and legendary.    Go down in history naed!!!!!!!!!!!
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