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81  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 09, 2009, 09:46:44 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 09, 2009, 09:37:03 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on November 09, 2009, 06:41:44 PM

lol

+1

deadzone, does your view of copyrights carry over to patents, as well?  They're both forms of intellectual property, after all.

Yeah, the Patent System is in great shape, no problems whatsover.  smile
82  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 09, 2009, 09:45:54 PM

Quote from: Brendan on November 09, 2009, 09:31:17 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 09, 2009, 06:32:37 PM

Copyright is a monopoly over a creative work that seeks to restrict completely its use to only that of what the copyright holder dictates.

How does this worldview jive with software copyrights?

Heh, about the same really.  See the BSA's yearly propoganda about how many billions in lost sales due to piracy.  An illegal download equals a lost sale?  I don't think so.  Music?  Software?  It's all the same. 
83  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 09, 2009, 09:41:29 PM
This is what is wrong with this so called debate:  (Source is quoted directly from Wikipedia...)

"On January 12, 2000, MP3.com launched the "My.MP3.com" service which enabled users to securely register their personal CDs and then stream digital copies online from the My.MP3.com service. Since consumers could only listen online to music they already proved they owned the company saw this as a great opportunity for revenue by allowing fans to access their own music online. The record industry did not see it that way and sued MP3.com claiming that the service constituted unauthorized duplication and promoted copyright infringement.

Judge Jed S. Rakoff, in the case UMG v. MP3.com, ruled in favor of the record labels against MP3.com and the service on the copyright law provision of "making mechanical copies for commercial use without permission from the copyright owner." Rather than fight on appeal, MP3.com settled with the major labels for more than $200 million and the service was discontinued. This decision turned out to be the beginning of the end of the original MP3.com as the firm no longer had sufficient funds to weather the technology downturn. To add to their woes music publishers, spurred by the success of the record label suits, also sued MP3.com with their own claims of payment due."


It's a new business model that appears to be making money that people really enjoy that is clearly not designed around the idea of copyright infringement but rather allowing people to do stuff with their legally purchased content that makes it more useful. 

The RIAA's response?  Sue it out of existence because we own the copyrights and we should be paid for EVERYTHING even if we didn't come up with the idea or do any work.  Again, it appears that they are way too focused on stopping infringement completely rather than trying to capitalize on any new business models that might be out there.  The key here is the "stopping infringement completely" part.
84  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 09, 2009, 09:26:16 PM
I would also like to point out fireball that you have already taken the liberty of misrepresenting and/or misinterpreting my position once in this thread.  See AllofMP3.com vs. MP3.com
85  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 09, 2009, 09:12:11 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 09, 2009, 06:50:15 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 09, 2009, 06:32:37 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 07, 2009, 10:20:23 PM

Quote from: RuperT on November 07, 2009, 07:53:43 PM

But what's the real difference?  Neither George nor the publisher is getting any more money in either scenario.

In the legal scenario, one copy exists. In the illegal scenario, multiple illegal copies have been created. That's the whole point. No one is saying that an artist deserves to be paid by everyone who reads a book or hears a song, but by everyone who has a copy. Copyright is all about monetizing the distribution of new copies. That's the fair compromise. No one seems upset about it but apologists for piracy.

They sure do have it made.  They have their original copyright and access to infinite goods.  Copyright is not anything at all like what you describe.  

Actually, copyright is exactly what I describe -- the right to profit from the copies made of one's work. That's what the very word means: the copyright holder is the only one who has a *right* to make *copies*.

I'm sorry you don't respect the right of artists to be compensated for copies of their work. People like you are making it harder and harder for folks to make a living producing creative material.

And I hope everyone notes that you started out pretending to want to stand up for fair use, which I think all of us support, and in your last post you're making an all out apology for what is clearly piracy -- the production and distribution of copies made for which the owner gets no compensation.

I sure would like you to specifically quote those things you say that I said.  smile  (Careful though, copying and distributing equals infringement and piracy.)
86  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 09, 2009, 06:32:37 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 07, 2009, 10:20:23 PM

Quote from: RuperT on November 07, 2009, 07:53:43 PM

But what's the real difference?  Neither George nor the publisher is getting any more money in either scenario.

In the legal scenario, one copy exists. In the illegal scenario, multiple illegal copies have been created. That's the whole point. No one is saying that an artist deserves to be paid by everyone who reads a book or hears a song, but by everyone who has a copy. Copyright is all about monetizing the distribution of new copies. That's the fair compromise. No one seems upset about it but apologists for piracy.

They sure do have it made.  They have their original copyright and access to infinite goods.  Copyright is not anything at all like what you describe.  Copyright is a monopoly over a creative work that seeks to restrict completely its use to only that of what the copyright holder dictates.  Ironically, most creative works that are copyrighted and protected so fiercely were inspired by other creative works.    

The whole idea of what a copyright is and what it's supposed to actually do has been altered again and again and it has now morphed into a whole industry dedicated to killing competition and stifling innovation.  The sad thing is that you are so obtuse that you think that is A-Ok.  The profits that the RIAA/MPAA continue to make that increase every year don't seem to indicate that file sharing is such a problem.  It's almost like file sharing is not a problem at all and is rather a form of free advertising for them.

If I told you about about a musical group that I liked would you be more or less interested than if I told you about the musical group and gave you a copy of some of their songs?  I think most would go and check them out and if they liked them, buy some of their albums.  You, I am guessing, would label me a pirate and turn me in.  In either scenario a sale is not guaranteed and you know what?  Sales are never guaranteed, you have to create something that people enjoy and want.  File Shariing on the whole does not always equal lost sales.              
87  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 07, 2009, 12:42:43 AM

Quote from: dbt1949 on November 07, 2009, 12:09:03 AM

I've filled my wife's MP3 player with songs from my collection. Is that piracy too?

Hello? Sorry somebody's knocking on my door..............

Apparently so DBT in the black and white view that some people appear to have.  They did just try to make the case that people should pay for 30 second preview clips from places like Itunes and for ringtones.  Currently, they feel that Radio Stations should pay them for the privelage of playing their music.  Will it be commercial free?
88  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 07, 2009, 12:37:26 AM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 06, 2009, 06:44:03 PM

Deadzone, you're not a fair use advocate. You're just an apologist for casual piracy.

In reality, I don't care one way or another about the Piracy and the people doing it.  My position is for the RIAA/MPAA should consider alternative methods for addressing the Piracy problem that don't involve punishing legitimate consumers of their content.  My hope is that one day they realize that they are going about it wrong and devise a new strategy.  I don't know what it should be but it appears what they are doing presently is doing more harm than good. 

They are completely focused on completely stopping piracy and I just don't think they can completely stop it.  My thinking is that once they realize this, they can perhaps spend some time and money on new business models and start reconnecting with their fans.   

Make sense?  Apologist for Piracy?  No, but if you wish to label me as such, feel free. 
89  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 07, 2009, 12:17:35 AM

Quote from: msteelers on November 06, 2009, 06:43:24 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 06, 2009, 06:37:53 PM

Whatever - that person is free to do what he wants with what he purchased.  He's handing out copies of something that I still own the copyrights too.  I am still able to make money on my copyrights in any way that I see as viable. 

You wasted no time in contradicting yourself there.

How?  In my view, I have lost nothing. 
90  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 06, 2009, 10:04:32 PM
Okay then.  I guess we leave it at that. 
91  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 06, 2009, 06:37:53 PM

Quote from: Razgon on November 06, 2009, 03:56:02 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 06, 2009, 03:30:59 PM

I have several hundred CD's that I have purchased legally through the years that I have ripped and stored to an external hard drive.  If I make a mix cd of some songs and give it to someone is this wrong?  What should I do?  Purchase each song individually (if available) from I-Tunes or Amazon a second time, burn it to CD and then give it to someone? 

It's just stupid and ridiculous to feel entitled to be paid multiple times for the same thing IMHO. 

Are you serious?? You really dont see anything wrong with this??

So, lets say *you* made some music, or a book.. 1 person bought it, and gave it to the rest of the world... Is that right, or should people buy their own stuff?

Whatever - that person is free to do what he wants with what he purchased.  He's handing out copies of something that I still own the copyrights too.  I am still able to make money on my copyrights in any way that I see as viable.  Besides, you are only as good as your material, if it sucks, don't expect a lot of sales.  Time to move on.  smile
92  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 06, 2009, 03:30:59 PM
I have several hundred CD's that I have purchased legally through the years that I have ripped and stored to an external hard drive.  If I make a mix cd of some songs and give it to someone is this wrong?  What should I do?  Purchase each song individually (if available) from I-Tunes or Amazon a second time, burn it to CD and then give it to someone? 

It's just stupid and ridiculous to feel entitled to be paid multiple times for the same thing IMHO. 
93  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 06, 2009, 03:22:36 PM

Quote from: JayDee on November 06, 2009, 02:24:37 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 06, 2009, 02:05:16 PM

Quote from: dbt1949 on November 06, 2009, 04:03:06 AM

Maybe not but it makes for an interesting concept.....make a cd mix for your friends. Is that piracy too?

They certainly think it is.  Basically, they want to be paid for every copy but they refuse to come up with a viable business model to do this. 

Why wouldn't they want to be paid for every copy? Video game publishers want to be paid for every game sold. Car manufacturers want to be paid for every vehicle they sell. That's just basic business sense.

As for a viable business model, they put individual songs for sale on iTunes and amazon.com. People can either choose to pay for them or steal them. This is the same as shoplifting. Sure, you can put in all the preventative meaures in place to try and prevent it, but people will still find a way.

I just find it silly that you're chastizing the industry for wanting to make money on their product. They're offering it for sale and they're trying to crack down on those who steal it. I don't see how this is any different than any other retail business.

If I have already purchased the CD should this apply?  You are telling me it's just good business sense to charge me over and over again for the same thing?  Actually, it does sound like a great and lucrative business plan, that screws over the customer and makes them pay out of the ass for something they already purchased. 
94  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 06, 2009, 02:05:16 PM

Quote from: dbt1949 on November 06, 2009, 04:03:06 AM

Maybe not but it makes for an interesting concept.....make a cd mix for your friends. Is that piracy too?

They certainly think it is.  Basically, they want to be paid for every copy but they refuse to come up with a viable business model to do this. 
95  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 09:57:48 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 05, 2009, 09:48:17 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 09:15:17 PM

I mean you can pay for music downloads, put it on a blank cd and share them that way too.

Maybe you would do this, but I'm an ethical person who's outgrown the stupidity of collegiate piracy.

It's also an act of war, to use your term, against the artists and copyright owners. And making copies for friends is not fair use, as you've repeatedly implied in this thread, nor should it be.

OH BS.  Seriously.  Congratulations for being ethical and outgrowing the stupidity of college piracy and thanks for implying that I have not and that I am stupid.  

Please find and quote where I stated that I do any of those things or that I supported any of those things that you speak of.  Did you just attack directly without reading or did you just skim the 3 pages?  

In all honesty, I say give the RIAA/MPAA everything they want.  It will speed up the inevitible and when they are gone, we can start over.    
96  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 09:43:33 PM

Quote from: kronovan on November 05, 2009, 09:00:38 PM

Quote from: JayDee on November 04, 2009, 08:00:13 PM

I'm just getting increasingly annoyed at other's cavalier attitude towards piracy. I couldn't care less how you choose to get your entertainment; I'm in no position to judge, and I'm not going to lecture you on why you shouldn't pirate. But even in my pirating heyday I would have never ripped into someone so openly and fiercely for actually purchasing music/DVDs/games.

This is what bothers me the most about pirating and I'm also someone who takes a nonjudgmental approach to those that do illegal downloading. Personally I'm completely fed up and annoyed by those who blatantly promote piracy. It's one thing to do it -fine I won't judge you- but don't try and convince me I'm foolish or wrong because I don't!! And everyone complains about the anti-piracy ads on TV and at the theater. Maybe those ads would disappear if the Pirating Apostles would stop preaching. Personally I wouldn't do it just on the grounds that I want to set an example for my kids.

Anti-Piracy ads are the least of our problems regarding the Piracy issue.  People will pirate and it's frankly, silly to think otherwise.  It's really 2 issues both with the RIAA;  They seek to completely eliminate piracy.  They will do anything to obtain that goal, even if it's bad for all of us as consumers.  Take a look at the Higher Education Opportunity Act that they managed to convince Congress to pass in 08.

This requires that schools ensure they are doing all they can to combat illegal file sharing among students. The new rules, according to the wording contained in the legislation, requires institutions to develop plans to "effectively combat the unauthorized distribution of copyrighted material, including through the use of a variety of technology-based deterrents." Schools must also "to the extent practicable, offer alternatives to illegal downloading or peer-to-peer distribution of intellectual property." Any institute found to be non-compliant could lose federal funding.

So the college's get to do the RIAA/MPAA dirty work and they get to pay for it too.  I wonder if tuition cost will be increased to help offset these costs?  Currently, the RIAA/MPAA are working towards making this mandatory for all ISP's to have to do.  Oh and graduated response of course... 3 strikes and your out - no more Internet for you.  Think you get your fair shake to fight it?  Think again.  No due process, they find that your IP is associated with infringement, they send a takedown notice, after three, your out.  No if ands or buts.  GUILTY.  No reason to even bother with the notion of innocence.

You guys will all have a different view of these things if the ACTA Treaty is passed.  It's the RIAA/MPAA wishlist written by their representitives with no debate, oversight, or transparency and it's all being done in total secrecy. 
   

97  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 09:15:17 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 05, 2009, 08:06:03 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 07:00:59 PM

But I have never made that argument!  Ripping a CD is the norm, that's a fact.

This is fair use.

Quote
Sharing music digitally at a basic level (rip a cd, give the rips to a friend..) is easy and the norm.

This is NOT fair use, and SHOULD NOT BE. You have no business giving copies of music to your friends. Whether it's the norm or not is immaterial. You do not own the copyright on the music, ergo you have no right to distribute copies.

I have 950 friends on Facebook. Would it be okay for me to rip a CD, and send each of them a link to download the resultant files, in your world? What if I have 100 friends? What if I have 1,000,000?

Quote
Short of no more physical media and a "read only" Internet, I have no idea how file sharing can possibly be stopped.

Get rid of physical media, watermark all digital copies so that their purchaser (and subsequent distributor) can be easily identified, and then prosecute those individuals who purchase watermarked tracks and put them up on P2P sites.

I am just stating the obvious regarding sharing CD's you seem to be repeating it - just with more words. 

Get rid of physical media?  That's exactly what the industry doesn't want and it would be impossible to completely get rid of it.  Further, what about blank cd's and dvd's?  Do we ban those and stop manufacturing them?  I mean you can pay for music downloads, put it on a blank cd and share them that way too.  You see, the RIAA doesn't want digital at all.  They want the good old days of physical media when they got to completely dictate how the consumer used the media they paid for.  It was all about total control and profit, now it's pretty much a total lack of control with profit. 

It all goes back to the same thing.  It's war against the consumer and they don't care if you purchase legally or not.   
98  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 07:53:35 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 05, 2009, 07:46:14 PM

I'm speaking more of the Amazon downloader, since I have no love for itunes, but installing one small, unobtrusive app that you don't have to deal with post-download is a major problem for you?  Also, you don't actually have to use their downloader program, using it just enables you to download multiple mp3s simultaneously or to do full album purchases.  You can manually download them sequentially without using the downloader.

That's good to know actually.  I may check it out for myself tonight.  I guess I associated the negative views I have about their Kindle with their MP3 offering.  Do you find they have a pretty broad selection of music?  Are all the major record labels involved with Amazon because it doesn't really sound like a service that they would associate themselves with to be honest.
99  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 07:43:04 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 05, 2009, 07:25:24 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 07:00:59 PM

You know what would make me buy non-indie music again?  99 cents a song, no DRM, no restrictions, and access to everything.  I would buy every piece of shit song they have been pumping out for the last 20 years and then some, I guarantee it.  True story:  the one time I ever went hog wild and downloaded everything I could get my hands on was with MP3.com.  It was cheap, easy to use, and they had a humongous selection.  I paid them close to 500 bucks in a 6 month period before they got shut down. 
 

I'm 99% sure that Amazon's MP3 store is 99 cents a song with no DRM.  I don't know what you mean by "access to everything".  Access to every song ever made?

The "everyone's doing it, so you may as well embrace it" is kind of a cop-out answer.  As your mom would say "if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do that too?" Just because everyone's doing it doesn't make it right.  Not using your turn signals in Boston is the norm, should I embrace that?

Sure!  Don't hold back the music.  (See the Beatles) 

It's not a cop out answer it's a realistic answer.  The more they push, the further underground they go as they continuously evolve.  Everything is getting encrypted now and that much harder to find for them.  They already were doing a terrible job, what's the next step? 
100  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 07:38:46 PM

Quote from: JayDee on November 05, 2009, 07:22:16 PM

Quote from: deadzone
You know what would make me buy non-indie music again?  99 cents a song, no DRM, no restrictions, and access to everything.

That sounds like iTunes and amazon.com to me.

Installing 3rd party software like they both do and the fact that ITunes blocks me from using any MP3 player with their service is a no go for me.  Openess, freedom of choice, ease of use. 
101  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 07:00:59 PM

Quote from: Laner on November 05, 2009, 06:42:24 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 06:37:17 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 05, 2009, 06:28:50 PM

Fair use does not cover me buying a CD, then giving the MP3s to another person. That is *NOT* fair use. Fair use is important, and it is important that we protect it -- people should be able to back up their music, and be able to time/location shift media they have legitimately purchased. Using fair use as a cover for blatant copyright infringement, which is what transferring digital copies from one person to another, damages the concept of fair use, and makes it more likely that future laws will modify fair use in bad ways or eliminate it.

So your argument is not only wrong, it is dangerous to the legitimate uses of the very protections you're claiming.

No.  The loss of Fair Use is dangerous and that is ultimately what the RIAA would like to see happen.  They are already on record saying that they don't think there should be any Fair Use.  They are also on the record saying that personal back-ups should be illegal. 

If common ground is not found soon I fear that the RIAA/MPAA will get exactly what they want.  Does anyone at least agree that their vision may not fall in line with what our vision as a consumer would be? 

I would agree with you here, except that your previous arguments make it seem like you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

If you want to ensure that fair use doctrine is completely legislated away, keep making arguments suggesting that fair use should cover any and all copying and distribution of copyrighted materials.  That'll get 'em to clamp down on it *real* quick.

But I have never made that argument!  Ripping a CD is the norm, that's a fact.  Sharing music digitally at a basic level (rip a cd, give the rips to a friend..) is easy and the norm.  What now?  It's already out there and there is no way to completely stop it.  Short of no more physical media and a "read only" Internet, I have no idea how file sharing can possibly be stopped.  So, embrace it instead.  Do what you can to stop it but fucking embrace it.

You know what would make me buy non-indie music again?  99 cents a song, no DRM, no restrictions, and access to everything.  I would buy every piece of shit song they have been pumping out for the last 20 years and then some, I guarantee it.  True story:  the one time I ever went hog wild and downloaded everything I could get my hands on was with MP3.com.  It was cheap, easy to use, and they had a humongous selection.  I paid them close to 500 bucks in a 6 month period before they got shut down. 

I don't feel one shred of shame or remorse for what I did either because the simple fact of the matter is that's what I want and the record companies are unwilling to even try to offer a service like that to me.  The fact that they missed out on making shit tons of money is their fault and their fault alone.  I could be a paying customer but since they don't offer me what I want I do without and support the Indie Scene.   
102  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:44:56 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 05, 2009, 06:33:49 PM

If you don't understand why it's fairly rude to tell the band that you're planning on acquiring their new CD without paying for it at their release party, then I don't know what to tell you.  Musicians work hard to produce an album, and to tell them bold-faced that you're planning to simply take the fruits of their labors when they're trying to sell it for a reasonable cost, then that's a pretty dickhead move.

Yes, people will always steal things.  You can offer alternatives that still provide some revenue to the creator, you can try and minimize it, but stealing will always happen.  What you seem to be arguing, and what I totally don't get, is that the artists should simply accept it and not try to discourage it.  As far as I'm concerned, if you're going to pirate music (or anything else), fine, but that doesn't make it right, you should feel bad about it, and you definitely shouldn't brag about it.

I have never said they shouldn't try and discourage it and I have honestly done my best to communicate that point several times.  To bring it into sharper focus:  They need to shift focus from completely eradicating piracy (never going to happen because it's impossible) to doing what they can to discourage it through new business models as well as fighting legitimate cases that can be proven.

Masses of John Doe lawsuits against several IP Addresses with no specific evidence is not a strategy.   
103  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:37:17 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on November 05, 2009, 06:28:50 PM

Fair use does not cover me buying a CD, then giving the MP3s to another person. That is *NOT* fair use. Fair use is important, and it is important that we protect it -- people should be able to back up their music, and be able to time/location shift media they have legitimately purchased. Using fair use as a cover for blatant copyright infringement, which is what transferring digital copies from one person to another, damages the concept of fair use, and makes it more likely that future laws will modify fair use in bad ways or eliminate it.

So your argument is not only wrong, it is dangerous to the legitimate uses of the very protections you're claiming.

No.  The loss of Fair Use is dangerous and that is ultimately what the RIAA would like to see happen.  They are already on record saying that they don't think there should be any Fair Use.  They are also on the record saying that personal back-ups should be illegal. 

If common ground is not found soon I fear that the RIAA/MPAA will get exactly what they want.  Does anyone at least agree that their vision may not fall in line with what our vision as a consumer would be? 
104  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:31:28 PM

Quote from: JayDee on November 05, 2009, 06:22:17 PM

I also don't get how the Fair Use argument applies here. Or is deadzone arguing that since someone is sharing the CD via torrent that it is their right as per the Fair Use stipulation to do so, and thus it's ok for someone to download it because it's just an extension of Fair Use?

If so, that's ridiculous.

How did we get from ripping a CD and sharing it with a friend rather than paying for 2 CD's to uploading torrents?  He's a cheap bastard for not buying 2 cd's but where do you draw the line?  Should he be forced to arbitrarily buy 10 CD's to offset the possibility that he might rip it and share it with 10 friends?
105  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:27:09 PM

Quote from: Laner on November 05, 2009, 06:24:25 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 06:17:26 PM

I never said that at all.  I said that they need to understand that they can't stop it completely from happening.  Maybe they should focus on the ones that actually are costing them money like the commercial copyright infringers that are stamping and shipping media?

Again, who says they're not?  Are they only allowed to fight piracy on one front?

No one does.  They are fighting piracy on more than one front.  I just happen to think that one of those fronts is a losing battle that does more harm than good. 
106  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:24:29 PM

Quote from: Laner on November 05, 2009, 06:20:05 PM

deadzone, you are misconstruing Fair Use.  Unless you want to argue that any and all copy & distribution of copyrighted materials falls under "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research".  It doesn't cover "making a copy for a friend 'cause they're too cheap to splash out the $10 for the disc", and certainly doesn't cover making the material freely available for leechers across the world.

How do we know it was Fair Use or not?  He just said he was going to do it.  The act of ripping a CD to your computer is not illegal under Fair Use it doesn't speak to what happens after the fact other than commercially.   
107  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:20:49 PM

Quote from: msteelers on November 05, 2009, 06:16:37 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 06:03:30 PM

Quote from: kratz on November 05, 2009, 05:55:16 PM

I've had *friends* at our CD release parties tell me 'Naw, I'm not going to buy a copy... I'll just rip it from someone else.'

Sheesh... thanks for the support!

So.  No Fair Use I take it?  First Sale Doctrine out the window?  Better not sell anymore CD's!  I think the person that said live concerts only is right.  The flip side of the coin is that the person who receives the "stolen" music from the original CD that was purchased may just fire up the Internet and look you guys up and... buy something.  No guarantees though, but hey that's the reality.   

Good god man, you just don't get it.

It takes some serious balls to go to a release party and tell the band that you are going to borrow somebody else's copy.

What don't I get Kratz?  So, have him arrested or at least thrown out or something.  Perhaps a good "I'm not your friend anymore!" retort?  Honestly what do you do?  Also, can you show me the actual damages and loss of revenues based on that event?  You know, it's nice to see hard numbers and facts. 
108  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:18:29 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 05, 2009, 06:14:04 PM

In what way does the law that you quoted justify person A buying a CD, person B borrowing and copying it, and then returning the copies to person A when said copying is done purely for recreational listening? I've never been great at reading legaleese, so forgive me if I'm missing something.

In what way does it not?  I'm no lawyer either. 
109  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:17:26 PM

Quote from: Chaz on November 05, 2009, 06:07:38 PM

Quote from: deadzone on November 05, 2009, 06:03:30 PM

Quote from: kratz on November 05, 2009, 05:55:16 PM

I've had *friends* at our CD release parties tell me 'Naw, I'm not going to buy a copy... I'll just rip it from someone else.'

Sheesh... thanks for the support!

So.  No Fair Use I take it?  Better not sell anymore CD's!  I think the person that said live concerts only is right. 

As I understand it, fair use is when you buy a CD, then rip a copy to digital format to use on your MP3 player.  Fair use is not borrowing a CD from your friend, copying it, and then returning it while retaining the copies.

Also, while I'm certainly not in favor of draconian copy protection schemes, I also don't think you can say "well, people are going to steal, so rather than bothering to try and prevent it, you should give them a better alternative."  What exactly would the "viable alternative" be to downloading MP3s for free? A lot of smaller artists already offer low-cost digital versions of their music.  I'm not sure how the artists are supposed to make a living if they have to constantly compete with free pirated downloads.

I never said that at all.  I said that they need to understand that they can't stop it completely from happening.  Maybe they should focus on the ones that actually are costing them money like the commercial copyright infringers that are stamping and shipping media?
110  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:11:12 PM
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. 106 and 17 U.S.C. 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
the nature of the copyrighted work;
the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.[1]
111  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:03:30 PM

Quote from: kratz on November 05, 2009, 05:55:16 PM

I've had *friends* at our CD release parties tell me 'Naw, I'm not going to buy a copy... I'll just rip it from someone else.'

Sheesh... thanks for the support!

So.  No Fair Use I take it?  First Sale Doctrine out the window?  Better not sell anymore CD's!  I think the person that said live concerts only is right.  The flip side of the coin is that the person who receives the "stolen" music from the original CD that was purchased may just fire up the Internet and look you guys up and... buy something.  No guarantees though, but hey that's the reality.    
112  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 06:00:29 PM
I don't understand how anyone comes to the conclusion that I am saying it should all just be free or that the file sharing thing is okay.  I'm not.  I acknowledge that people who create should have a reasonable expectation to be paid for the usage of what they created.  What is so hard to understand about the fact that Pirating is something that is going to happen?  It's inevitable, move on.  Rather than focusing on stronger and more draconian measures that end up punishing everyone why not focus that energy on creating a viable alternative that is affordable and user friendly? 

Right now, as we speak, they are trying their best to draft the most restrictive laws yet through the ACTA treaty.  It includes such things as "graduated response" and "mandatory ISP filtering".  These are the guys that for the most part represent you, the artist, and from what I gather, you guys don't have a problem with it.  They should at least try and offer some sort of viable alternative that competes with free.  Yeah I said it, competes with free.  I think it would be rather surprising to see how much money could be made if they backed down and focused on what they used to do best.  File sharing is free but it's not convenient.  Think about that for a bit.   



113  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 05:02:41 PM
That's exactly what I was saying!  You understood it perfectly!   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

It's a given that no talent bands that suck may have a harder time adapting than others. 
114  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 05, 2009, 04:16:36 PM
Please tell your friends to wake up and start coming up with ways to utilize what the Internet has to offer so that they can re-connect with their fans.  In other words, get back to work!  The days of raking in the money from CD sales are over and done and it's time to move on to bigger and better things.  It's not just about selling music anymore. 

The first step is to accept the fact that Piracy is going to happen no matter what. 
115  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Why do I need to defend purchasing music? on: November 04, 2009, 10:16:53 PM
What I don't understand is why people are surprised at people pushing back against something they don't like.  The RIAA's position is that everyones a suspected criminal if you use the Internet.  Things like "innocent until proven guilty" and the idea of "Fair Use" do not apply in their world and they live under the mistaken guise that they should be paid multiple times for the same thing.  The same group that insisted that copying tapes (remember those?!) would be the end of their industry.  The same group that insisted the MP3 player was going to be an industry killer.  This the same group that is now claiming that file sharing is killing their industry and causing the loss of billions of dollars, thousands of jobs, putting corn farmers out of business, and helping to fund terrorism.  

All because people are sharing music on the Internet.  If I rip a CD I legally obtained to my computer and share it with my wife since we each have our own MP3 player is this stealing?  Should the RIAA be paid again for each of those songs that I shared with my wife?  Does this constitute a lost sale for them?    

Things are are a lot less clear than the RIAA says they are.  1 pirated song does not equal 1 lost sale.  Millions of pirated songs do not equal millions of stolen songs.

I guess that my major point is that they already label us as criminals so more and more people are reacting from that perspective.  For me, it just made me realize that I could do without and I completely stopped supporting them in any way.  Indie music or nothing for me now.   
116  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: [Movie] Paranormal Activity on: October 28, 2009, 11:17:35 PM
Heh - I guess I stand corrected on the whole Paranormal Activity-Demonic Possession thing.  smile
117  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: [Movie] Paranormal Activity on: October 28, 2009, 05:48:33 PM
Caught it over the weekend - I liked it a lot and I have to say, it's a great movie to experience at a Movie Theater.  I don't think it would have the same impact at home on your Home Theater System.

-The pacing was a little slow for me but overall it was a nice slow burn that led up to a great ending.   

-The "Home Video" style of the movie didn't bother me at all this time as it sometimes has done in the past.

What's up with the title?  It implies something that this movie is not since it's about Demonic Possession not Ghosts.  Regardless, I looked over my shoulder a few times and it definitely left me with a feeling of dread that I didn't shake off until the next day.  Overall this is a great, spooky little horror movie that really is both scary and entertaining.  If you like Horror movies and/or scary movies then you should be quite pleased with this one.  Let's hope Hollywood is taking notice!   
118  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: 2009 NFL Season has started! on: October 20, 2009, 02:33:52 PM
My feeling going into this past weekend was that the Saints were going to be tested this weekend playing the Giants.  Wow, I think they passed the test!  They seemed to dominate both offensively and defensively in the game.  I don't think we have ever had a more complete and cohesive looking Saints team ever - and with that, I more than likely just screwed up the season.  smile

5-0 though... Wow.    
119  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Donating blood on: October 19, 2009, 07:22:35 PM
I'm all about helping out and blood donation is one thing that I have done all my life that makes me feel like I am really helping someone in need and making a difference.  About 2 years ago I was urged to do red blood cell donation because of my blood type (Type O Negative) and ever since I have done that type of blood donation if they have the machine to do it.

I have only had one bad experience donating red blood cells.  The needle came out of the vein when the fluids were being pumped to me - it sucked really bad.  This bubble started growing under my skin and it was a lot more painful than I would have guessed.  (I am told that i'm sort of a cream puff so it could just be my girly-man attributes that kicked in or something...)  Anyway, I called the attendant over and asked if what was happening was normal and she replied by hurriedly turning off the machine and stopping the process. 

Sadly, that was one of the few times that I ended up not donating at all.

Regardless - Blood Donation is a very good thing to do.  I encourage everyone that is able to donate to do so.  It really does make a difference.     
       
120  Non-Gaming / Steals and Deals / Re: Woot Deal - Stacked refurb computer on: June 26, 2008, 05:18:08 PM
The deal frost indicates does seem to be better.  No mention of New or Refurbished though....  I noticed also that it lists a wireless keyboard and mouse too.  (Woot's deal specifies ps2 keyboard and mousel.)
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