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4841  Gaming / Analog Gaming / Re: Top 5 Collectible Games and RPG Sales for 2010 on: April 13, 2011, 09:39:05 PM

Quote from: kronovan on April 12, 2011, 03:52:21 PM

I've heard nothing but great things about those FFG RPG's, but on a few sites I've read the occasional criticism that FFG's seems to have abandoned Warhammer Fantasy in favor of their other RPG's. I never played any of them, so I'm not really sure.

I'm not sure that's quite how I'd put it. FFG got the Warhammer RPG license not long (in the grand scale of things. This was nearly two decades after the 1st edition, I think) after the 2nd edition had been released, then promptly ditched it and went for a 3rd edition that seems to be completely different from the old ones in both tone and rules. It now looks more like a boardgame than an RPG, and I have no interest in buying it. 2nd edition is the pure essence of Warhammer Fantasy roleplaying for me.

What truly makes this puzzling is that the Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, and the upcoming Black Crusade (play as Chaos worshipers!) are all built upon the 2nd edition and FFG seems to continue following that line. Why they diverged two very closely related games and settings like that is beyond my comprehension. Perhaps they have some grand plan to it all, but I doubt it.
4842  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Mystery GOG countdown (now general GOG discussion) on: April 13, 2011, 01:22:29 PM

Quote from: MonkeyFinger on April 13, 2011, 01:16:21 PM

Grim Fandango comes to mind...

Monkey Island and The Dig too. It's a very vague clue.
4843  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Is Steam Hampering Valve? on: April 13, 2011, 12:19:25 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 13, 2011, 12:11:11 PM

Steam is probably their big cash cow. But also remember that this is the company that took so long to make HL2 in the first place.

HL2 took so long to make partly because Steam was developed at the same time. HL2 was Steam's launch title, remember?
4844  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Mystery GOG countdown (now general GOG discussion) on: April 13, 2011, 08:53:33 AM
The X-Wing and TIE-Fighter games would be reasonably fresh as well.
4845  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Mortal Kombat: Legacy on: April 13, 2011, 08:05:39 AM
I actually thought it was pretty good, and this is coming from someone who detests "cool" for cool's sake. It was surprisingly well executed and both gritty and cheesy at the same time. In other words, it felt like Mortal Kombat. smile
4846  Non-Gaming / Forum and Site Feedback / Re: Forum slow today? on: April 12, 2011, 10:26:14 PM
Aaand it's really slow again tonight. Frustrating.
4847  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Nintendo 3DS or Nintendo's 3D House of DS on: April 12, 2011, 03:50:20 PM
No Resident Evil? That's the big title I'm waiting for.
4848  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Super Street Fighter IV on: April 12, 2011, 03:29:28 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 12, 2011, 03:03:05 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 07, 2011, 03:50:33 PM

Arcade Edition DLC revealed, just ignore the annoying watermark.

OK, maybe not as DLC?

It'll be both.
4849  Non-Gaming / Forum and Site Feedback / Re: Forum slow today? on: April 12, 2011, 02:18:19 PM

Quote from: Razgon on April 12, 2011, 09:07:20 AM

Interestingly enough, it isnt for me - although it has been once or twice the last few days.

It was pretty bad yesterday but seems fine today.
4850  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Mass Effect 3 on: April 12, 2011, 12:49:38 PM

Quote from: Turtle on April 12, 2011, 11:26:12 AM

as opposed to having a clear progression of weapons like they did in ME2.

Speak for yourself. I thought the weapon progression in Mass Effect 2 was anything but clear. In fact, I still haven't figured it out since it presents us with no actual numbers for the weapons, only a vague description.
4851  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: April 12, 2011, 10:50:52 AM
Please PLEASE stop with the unfunny and return this thread to being funny. It's been pages since the last time I felt even a flicker of a smile.
4852  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Mass Effect 3 on: April 11, 2011, 06:31:16 PM

Quote from: Gratch on April 11, 2011, 06:20:57 PM

FFS, not everything needs to made into an MMO.  ME2 was the most tightly written, character-driven, single-player RPG we've had in years...can't we just get more of that?

I think it's been clear for a while that Mass Effect was planned as a trilogy, and then the series would go in a different direction with a different protagonist. I agree with Bioware that the ME universe would work well for an MMO, even though it would be just another MMORPG with the same mechanics we're used to (I mean, can't any MMORPG these days invent a new mechanic instead of rehashing the tired old tank/DPS/healer/buffer/debuffer stuff?).

I would be surprised if an MMO is all they're planning for this setting though.
4853  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Mass Effect 3 on: April 11, 2011, 09:05:11 AM

Quote from: Turtle on April 11, 2011, 06:54:24 AM

- The art design, especially for the enemies, looks waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the hell different than previous games.

What does this mean? I hope it's not like the transition from Dragon Age to Dragon Age 2.
4854  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Dragon Age II - Impressions! Mods! Get Yer Free Copy of ME2! on: April 10, 2011, 10:33:33 PM

Quote from: Gratch on April 10, 2011, 09:30:58 PM

Goddammit so much.  How come every time I spec a character to fill a specific role, this game decides to take them away?   icon_evil  This is getting seriously irritating:

I had the same problem, with slightly different characters. Bioware has created a game that requires a carefully balanced party at higher difficulties, where every ability has to complement another character, yet they take away your party members with alarming regularity and during critical moments. It's not like you can have backup characters either. Every archetype has exactly one NPC, so if that NPC leaves, you can no longer have that archetype in your party.

It's another one of those things about this game that makes me believe DA2 was rushed from beginning (the design document) to end (bug fixing).
4855  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: [movie] Batman 3, aka Dark Knight Rising on: April 10, 2011, 06:40:43 PM
I got the impression from Batman Begins that Ra's al Ghul fakes his own immortality by essentially working as a "power behind the throne", with replaceable figureheads drawing attention away from himself. He thus appears immortal, because if someone kills what they think is him, he just reappears later with a new figurehead.
4856  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Elemental: War of Magic on: April 08, 2011, 07:25:39 PM
At this point I look at Elemental in much the same way as I do with Grim Dawn; I paid to support the development, and will get to play the finished product at some point in the future of the developer's choosing. The difference is that with Grim Dawn I was aware of this before giving them my money.
4857  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: curiosity about racing games on: April 08, 2011, 08:17:32 AM

Quote from: Rumpy on April 08, 2011, 05:27:04 AM

I'm wondering if any racing games have attempted to model these features instead of applying them as a global game feature.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Isn't what you want a particularly detailed physics setting that applies with a particular strength to each car? If so, why shouldn't it be a global game feature, as any other physics model would be?
4858  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Mass Effect movie in the works on: April 07, 2011, 09:02:40 PM
I love Mass Effect but hate Anime. It's the cheap, unoriginal way of making a movie, and the result is only going to be seen by a small niche instead of the massive crowds a full movie might have appealed to.
4859  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Official Rock Band DLC News, Impressions, and Comments Thread on: April 06, 2011, 07:28:43 AM

Quote from: msteelers on April 05, 2011, 04:27:08 PM

Quote from: DonD on April 03, 2011, 10:56:14 AM

I went through the first 2 levels of instruction, but it wasn't what I was looking for, so I just went to play some songs.  What I was looking for (maybe you can help me) is to play songs using the chord shapes, but perhaps not jumping up and down the neck from say 5th fret to 13th for some fiddly single notes.  It looks like easy has you plucking 1 note at a time, medium has a partial chord and hard is more what I'm looking for with full chords, but they also sprinkle in those fiddly single notes.

Maybe I just need better song selection?

It sounds like you want to play rhythm guitar, but these music games have always been a combination of rhythm and lead guitars. I think your best bet is going to find the songs that feature a lot of rhythm guitar and play those.

And if we ever get another Rock Band game, splitting out rhythm and lead for guitar is definitely on my short list of desired new features. I've always preferred just strumming away at chords.

Splitting the guitars is one of my biggest wishes for a sequel too. It's a bit silly jumping between both guitar scores when they were clearly written for two guitarists.
4860  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Uncharted 2: Among Impressions Threads [Hide the spoilers well!] on: April 06, 2011, 07:17:50 AM
There's really only one way they expected you to do that level, and I was lucky enough to stumble upon it on first try. Sounds like you're trying to be original, which is going to be a problem in that specific part of the game. I agree it's not the best way for the game to start out, but the rest more than makes up for it.
4861  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Dungeons & Dragons: Daggerdale on: April 05, 2011, 07:06:05 AM

Quote from: baelthazar on April 05, 2011, 05:14:03 AM

Can I make an observation? Why is it that, for over a decade now, game companies have persisted in turning one of the most famous turn based games on pen and paper, into real time action fests?

Won't argue too much with your overall point, but there have actually been 3 separate turn-based D&D-titles released in the last 10 years, unless I'm missing some. These are Temple of Elemental Evil (PC), Dungeon & Dragons Tactics (PSP) and Eye of the Beholder (GBA). There is still a market for these games on handheld devices, but that's to a large degree because of lower development costs.
4862  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: I definitely didn't spend 24 hours on RE5 last month on: April 05, 2011, 05:42:09 AM
It's a very advanced algorithm that estimates the length of time it feels like you're playing. slywink

(For the record: I love RE5)
4863  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Arnie to Hollywood-I told you i would be Back!! on: April 04, 2011, 06:58:11 PM

Quote from: Teggy on April 04, 2011, 06:45:44 PM

We really do need a new big action hero. All the ones from the 80s and 90s are getting a bit long in the tooth, unfortunately (Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Willis, Ford). No offense to them, but Jason Statham and The Rock don't really fit the bill.

Dwayne Johnson definitely fits the bill, but Hollywood doesn't really make that kind of action movie any more, so no such action star is able to fully emerge.
4864  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: The Elder Scrolls V:Skyrim on: April 04, 2011, 06:19:10 PM

Quote from: mytocles on April 04, 2011, 05:45:04 PM

I also hate that guide books for this type of game are getting almost mandatory

Huh? Wh... HUH?

How did you come to that conclusion? My own experience with guide books is that they're next to useless. Reading them only spoils the experience. The only game I've played in recent years that almost demanded a guide was Demon's Souls, but that's part of the game's design.
4865  Non-Gaming / Political / Religious Nonsense / Re: [WTF] Republicans propose bill to "reaffirm" motto of "In God We Trust" on: April 04, 2011, 04:27:13 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on April 04, 2011, 04:11:37 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on March 24, 2011, 12:02:42 AM

Coming into a thread only to take a shot at someone is the problem, it happens a lot and derails threads quite a bit.  

Seconded.  Zeke was on topic and discussing the OP when Hep and Tilt decided to go after him.  Tilt in particular claimed that all Zeke's threads go to 'compost' or something, but he's the one that took it off topic.  I think a lot of people here just don't like the fact that Zeke has a different opinion than they do.  

Okay, I was going to remain silent since I was "outvoted" in this thread, but this post is just wrong! What people don't like about Zekester in this particular part of the forums is that he makes outrageous claims based on either no facts at all, misinterpreted facts from reliable sources, or facts from unreliable sources. When people ask him for more detail, clarification or simply call him out for being wrong, he either doesn't respond or replies with thinly veiled insults that add nothing further to the conversation. Part of participating in a forum means discussing the topic at hand. Zekester doesn't discuss. He throws random statements out there and insults anyone who dares question him.

My problems with Zekester have nothing to do with his opinion. They have to do with how he presents it and the negative effect this has on the R&P forum. If you're going to shoehorn everyone who disagrees with Zekester into a "disagrees with his opinion" box, then:

1) You clearly haven't read the threads that have spiraled out of control because of him.
2) Keep me the fuck out of it!

And that's the last I have to say about this matter. I thought my opinion about this was pretty obvious by now, but I guess I needed to clarify my position further. I'm done with Zekester and I'm done with the R&P section in this forum as responses in this thread have shown that nobody really cares about intelligent discourse here anyway, and those that do are just shoved away or ignored. How Zekester can blatantly break forum rules (like his constant series of personal insults) and still be an active member is beyond me, but I guess it marks a precedent which I am taking the utmost advantage of with this post.

Over and out!
4866  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Uncharted 2: Among Impressions Threads [Hide the spoilers well!] on: April 04, 2011, 04:14:50 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on April 04, 2011, 04:01:46 PM

Hi party, sorry I'm late.

I assume we're past the statute of limitations on spoilers for this?

I'm just a short ways in, just halfway through the museum heist, but I'm really not loving the gameplay so far.

Opening train climb: Grabbed me initially, but oh look, yet another falling object has knocked me down or blocked my path.  Am I done climbing yet?  Oh wait, no.  More things fell and so I have more to climb.  I made it to the top and escaped the unstable train crash of doom!  So now I'll....climb on top of more unstable train cars?  My wife: "why are you jumping up onto another burning train car?"  Me: "I have no idea."

Sewer navigation: Here's a bunch of acrobatic climbing and jumping, but instead of letting you feel nimble and fluid we'll go with the Luigi's Mansion flashlight approach so that you have to stand still and search for the next platform.  Ah, there it is!  Nope.  That particular pipe/ledge/beam was just decoration.  Fooled you!

Security guard section: Ok, so I can hide in cover like so, and take out guards like so.  Oh!  This is like the awesome stealth sections of Arkham Asylum, which came out several months prior to this game!  Except that sometimes instead of stealth attacking from cover you just stand up and wave your arms.  And they made the lighting such that you can't tell which way the guards are facing.  I'll just inch behind this guy here and--oh wait, he's staring right at me.

I think I can easily sum up your post like this:

"I suck at this game!"

4867  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: [3DS] Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars on: April 04, 2011, 09:57:45 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 04, 2011, 03:52:22 AM

I was looking around for hard info on how long this game is, and yikes.

Spoiler for it's:
it has 37 missions, lasting about 25 hours.

I've been playing one mission every day or so, at this rate it's going to be awhile.

The game also tracks your total score as a percentage. Each mission may give you a set amount of medals based on the difficulty level. For example, the earliest missions give you 1 medal on the lowest difficulty, 2 on the medium, and 3 on the highest. Since I've been playing at maximum the entire game so far it gives me a good representation of how far into the game's content I am. It says I am at 11% after finishing the first 11 or so missions (the first two chapters). I assume it's also counting the skirmish missions, of which there's a good selection.

So yeah, it's huge.

I like how this game rewards true tactical thinking instead of just demanding you play one specific way to win. For example, in one of the later missions I did, I was tasked with taking out every enemy on the map (a rare victory condition actually). The twist was that the enemy controlled two command flags (each one produces 1 command point each turn, to a maximum of 20 points each) and could summon powerful reinforcements for every 6 command points they earned. This forced me to be quick. I managed to take control of the first flag reasonably quick and had a good shot at reaching the second flag one turn before the enemy could summon their second wave of reinforcements. I pressed on, using my abilities to the max, but suddenly came under intense sniper fire, flanking maneuvers and heavy fire from a trooper carrying a minigun. Every attempt I made to capture the flag quickly would end in my death, and delaying even one turn would send a new wave of strong reinforcements into my mids before I could even deal with the troops nearby. I decided to lick my wounds and do a hasty tactical retreat, seeking cover behind a group of stone fences with the enemy in pursuit. This gave me a good, defensible position but meant the enemy would be able to bring in 2-3 more waves of reinforcements. Even so, by taking up this defensive position I managed to turn near-defeat into victory by forcing the enemy to cross a large field while under fire from my sniper, and eventually getting into range of my heavy weapons guy who tore them to pieces. If things got really hairy, I had my regular soldier dude available with a rocket launcher and enough power points to decimate a small army on his own.

It was awesome.
4868  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Nintendo 3DS or Nintendo's 3D House of DS on: April 04, 2011, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: msduncan on April 04, 2011, 12:50:27 AM

It's funny.   It seems like the experience breaks down into three groups:

1.  Can see the 3D, but gives headache or dizziness
2.  Can't really see the 3D at all, or has trouble seeing it, or sees only a tiny bit of depth no matter the slider
3.  Sees the vivid 3D without problems, and doesn't have any trouble keeping it in the sweet spot

I fall into category 3 and thus think this thing is awesome sauce to the extreme.    icon_cool

I was in the first category, but based on my own experience and that of others here, it seems it eventually becomes the third category. I no longer get headaches or dizziness at even the highest 3D setting because my brain has gotten used to it. I believe that what was giving me a headache was my eyes seeing one thing and my brain saying it was impossible, leading my eyes to not really know where to focus. With my brain having resigned in this matter, the problem is gone.

I also feel like the 3D has gotten slightly less pronounced as I got used to it, but that may be just it: that I got used to it.
4869  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Game of Thrones TV series starts April 17th! on: April 04, 2011, 09:25:37 AM
Man, that was awesome! Now I want to see the rest! NOW!  crybaby
4870  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Nintendo 3DS or Nintendo's 3D House of DS on: April 03, 2011, 07:55:03 PM

Quote from: Caine on April 03, 2011, 06:31:56 PM

Too bad about splinter cell. Was hoping for a decent port.

Of the launch games, I'd pick up Clone wars on interest alone as steel diver seems light on content and I'm not really into fighting games.

I think I'll get okamiden next to tide me over.

Unless you absolutely hate turn-based games, get Ghost Recon!
4871  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Shift 2 Unleashed on: April 03, 2011, 06:31:04 PM
So, anyone else notice that the NPC drivers are total assholes? I can barely pass anyone without having them bump into my rear and spin me off the road. It gets really frustrating when I have to restart a race several times just to avoid losing because of this. Especially since I have to watch the race intro and hear the voiceover every single time.

Edit: Oh, and I just won the 5-lap Modern B Invitational race. Now that was satisfying! Wasn't in the lead until the end of the 4th lap.
4872  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: [3DS] Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars on: April 03, 2011, 08:47:23 AM

Quote from: Dante Rising on April 03, 2011, 12:49:04 AM

Quote from: TiLT on April 01, 2011, 02:52:56 PM

Still playing and enjoying the game, even if nobody else bothers to talk about it. slywink

I think I'm 6 or 7 missions in now, and I'm still at the Elite difficulty (the highest). It's getting tougher, but nothing ever feels impossible. The last mission I was on was the first one where I ended up aborting and retrying because I chose a bad strategy, but once I tried a different approach, what seemed like nearly impossible suddenly got much more manageable. The enemies I was up against were about level 11, while my own men were level 4 or less, so Elite certainly doesn't skimp on the challenge.

So should veteran strategy gamers start on Elite difficulty? How far into the game is 7 missions? I'm just wondering if you may hit a significant roadblock later on, or if you have already finished a significant portion of the game, and thus Elite difficulty is the sweet spot.

Veteran strategy gamers should definitely start on Elite difficulty. The nice thing about Ghost Recon is that you choose a difficulty per mission, not per campaign. This means that if you encounter a roadblock you can just restart the mission with a lower difficulty, then potentially use a higher one again for the mission after the one you're struggling with.

I'm currently at mission 10 or so. There's supposed to be nearly 40 missions in the game, from what I understand. The difficulty is also said to ramp up gradually, but I haven't really noticed. There are harder enemies being introduced, but your squad gets tougher in turn.
4873  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: [3DS] Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars on: April 02, 2011, 09:28:04 PM
I'm usually like that with strategy/tactical games too, but Ghost Recon is so deceptively simple and easy to understand that you'll remember what was going on within seconds after opening the screen.
4874  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Shift 2 Unleashed on: April 02, 2011, 02:04:07 PM
I just booted up the game (on the PC, but since this is where the discussion is...) and played through a bunch of races in a row. I did all the level 1 races as well as one of the level 2 ones with borrowed cars. It was a struggle initially to even keep my car on the road, but I quickly got used to it and am now winning most races on Easy. I'll probably turn that up soon, and get rid of the annoying race line which I've never used in any other racer. I find it makes me a worse driver to rely too much on it.

The game is great so far. Good visuals and gameplay, and an authentic feel to the driving (coming from someone who has no real racing experience). I like that the game seems to give me a stronger "relationship" with my cars than other racing games I've played. Throughout the D-level events I got quite used to driving my Audi S4, and even tweaked it a bit to make it both better looking and to give it better grip and braking power. That's not really something I usually do in these games.

Looking forward to playing it some more later.
4875  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Odin Sphere graphics + turn-based RPG = Grand Knights History on: April 01, 2011, 11:19:05 PM
Ugh, can't stand the Manga style. I wish the Japanese could make themselves draw in different styles once in a while, or at least make their heroes look like they're older than 12.
4876  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: [3DS] Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars on: April 01, 2011, 08:03:39 PM

Quote from: Bullwinkle on April 01, 2011, 07:55:36 PM

This is an excellent game, but not a genre that usually grabs me, unfortunately.  I'm only three missions in.  I also feel like I have to have enough time (and attention) available for the whole mission, and that just hasn't happened enough.

I tend to keep my 3DS in sleep mode with Ghost Recon active. I'll start a mission, play a few turns (perhaps enough to reach an objective), then close the lid and take a break. Later I'll open it up again, play a few more turns, then close it. Sometimes I play longer sessions. I find the game works really well for this kind of approach. You can also save mid-mission if you want to play something else.
4877  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Nintendo 3DS or Nintendo's 3D House of DS on: April 01, 2011, 07:39:18 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 01, 2011, 07:31:54 PM

has anyone else found their vision acting funny after playing?  it's weird, things seem to look sharper after finishing an extended play session.

Yeah, my vision is different after playing the 3DS. I had the same thing back in the days when I used to look at autostereograms. The difference from your experience is that my vision grows blurry afterwards, and I keep seeing 3D where there is none, such as with the text I'm writing right now. It tends to last a few hours before going away.
4878  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Nintendo 3DS or Nintendo's 3D House of DS on: April 01, 2011, 06:37:03 PM
One thing I haven't figured out, though I haven't really looked at it in any depth: In the Augmented Reality game, the only card it seems to accept is the ? card. How and when do you get to use the others?
4879  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Nintendo 3DS or Nintendo's 3D House of DS on: April 01, 2011, 03:20:25 PM

Quote from: The Grue on April 01, 2011, 03:09:56 PM

Funny comic, but I definitely don't really have a problem keeping the DS in its sweet spot when I play.  I was worried about this from impressions the gaming sites were writing up, but turned out to not be much of an issue for me.  I also have found I can put the 3D all the way up now that I have gotten used to it.

Yeah, I haven't turned the 3D up all the way to max again yet, but I haven't gotten any headaches after my last few play sessions, unlike the first few times.
4880  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Gamestop Buying Impulse & Spawn Labs on: April 01, 2011, 02:56:54 PM

Quote from: Purge on April 01, 2011, 02:37:19 PM

Quote from: Bob on April 01, 2011, 01:43:46 PM

Would we have have weekend-deals and Xmas sales if Steam was the only game in town?

I think so. There are many multiplatform games that threaten PC gaming.

Not to mention that people have different price points where they are willing to fork out for a game. By providing bargain deals Steam taps into a much larger potential customer base, even if they are completely alone in the market.
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