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1281
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Gaming / Analog Gaming / Board Gaming
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on: March 08, 2005, 06:27:51 AM
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I don't know if Jennifer is around here, but she wrote an excellent article for my site. It seems like an appropriate way to kick off this section. Read it Now!
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1282
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Devil May Cry 3
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on: March 07, 2005, 10:38:46 PM
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heh this thread went over Rage's head  Yeah I honestly don't get it  Im guessing it was a joke or tongue in cheek, but I really dont get it  What was the title of your thread again?
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1284
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Anyone know when swapyourgames.com is coming back
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on: March 07, 2005, 10:30:04 PM
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I don't know what anyone is thinking... I will attempt to translate based on pure speculation. However for amusement value, I will try to put it in the form of a Hitchhiker's exchange. Knightshade played by Zahpod Beeblebrox Rage played by Ford Prefect AgtFox played by Trillian ATB played by Arthur Dent Lord Ebonstone played by Slartibartfast Dark El played by Marvin the paranoid android and Me played by Eddie the Shipboard Computer Arthur: What? Zaphod: Did the monkey say something? Arthur: I resent that, I think I have a right to know whats going on. Arthur: Perhaps we should ask Slartibartfast. Zaphod: Quiet, I'm thinking. Ford: Perhaps that would be easier if you stopped drinking. Zaphod: I'm not thinking with that head, so why shouldn't I have a good time? Arthur: Look, I still don't know what's going on? Ford: Arthur, I expect you're quite used to that by now. Zaphod: I have this really awesome plan that will solve all our problems. Trillian: Not again. (on intercom) Marvin, Zaphod is working on another of his brilliant plans again. Marvin: (on intercom) Here I am, brain the size of a Galaxy reduced to answering the intercom. Did I mention my diodes hurt? Trillian: Any update on the automated trading system? Marvin: Silly me, I understood that you wanted the engines fixed before we crashed into the sun. I keep forgetting I work for such superior intellects. Perhaps I should shine your shoes or something in gratitude. Trillian: Fix the engines. Marvin: I knew you'd say that. Eddie: Incoming, transmission, I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I will. Slartibartfast: (on Monitor) If you people can spare a moment from crashing into stars, I think you should know great things are afoot. Zaphod: I know, I'm on my fourth round right now. Whee. (passes out) Slartibartfast: So human, have you decided to donate your brain in the service of the universe yet? Arthur: What? Eddie: End transmission. I'm sure that cleared everything up because I know I feel a lot better. By the way, we'll crash into the sun in T minus ten minutes. Isn't that exciting? Edit: For clarification, no insults were personally intended. I was just trying to keep characters in character.
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1287
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / The Red Star
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on: March 03, 2005, 08:59:26 PM
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I was expecting a new publisher to step up, but the latest EGM states that no one did, and they don't expect the game to see the light of day. Sad really.
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1288
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / I'd hold off on buying any new portable machine anytime soon
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on: February 28, 2005, 11:56:10 PM
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I love my cube, but it barely has 2 analog sticks. I can't wait to see where they'd place a portable Z button.
I don't see too many developers supporting four formats, GBA, DS, PSP and EVO. It would seem that the DS would lose out. An announcement like that would seem to kill DS sales so you'd think they'd have to hold off as long as possible. E3?
So we're talking disk drive, better screen and cube guts but keeping the price $99-150 and having better battery life than the PSP? Right.
If it can directly play cube games, that means they can't repackage and resell them as EVO editions. That doesn't make much sense either.
Although I could see Nintendo wanting to panic people into not buying a PSP, but that's not their usual MO. Wait and see.
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1290
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / What Xbox Live games are you playing?
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on: February 27, 2005, 08:38:31 PM
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Deja vu.
I haven't had much time myself. I have a Live games, but haven't played them much. I'd like to get some SC:PT time in or Halo 2 with a good group. In the near future, Phantom Dust and Iron Phoenix look promising if we could avoid the griefers.
All over again.
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1291
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Devil May Cry 3 may be the real deal!
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on: February 27, 2005, 08:11:10 AM
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I'm still pining for a PS2 version of Powerstone 2 or even (God forbid!) a Powerstone 3. That would be the single best PS2 Capcom game. Isn't Iron Phoenix (xbox) inspired by Powerstone. It's from Sammy who loves competing with Capcom. I realize it's not PS2, but it is for Live which could be quite fun if a group from here got together. Back on topic, I'm not going to rush out and buy an impossible game right now. I'll happily pick it up in a trade later or buy it after a price drop. I had heard that some of the play styles were supposed to make gameplay easier. In other words, if you want it really hard, play Style Z. You'll be rewarded with the coolest moves, but you need the mad reflexes to pull it off. Other styles have easier but fewer combos presumably making the challenge easier. I have to say that making the save system less user friendly sounds like one of the worst game design decisions in recent history.
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1293
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / New Mechassault 2 Live Download
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on: February 23, 2005, 06:00:04 PM
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From MS: MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf Downloadable Content Now Available Microsoft Game Studios today announced that new content for MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf, the popular 'Mech combat game for Xbox®, is now available for download via Xbox Live™. This round of free content consists of two maps that were originally featured in the Limited Edition; each playable via System Link, split-screen and Xbox Live. The first map, Mountain High, supports five game types: Team Destruction, Check It, Snatch it, Base War and Grinder. The second map, Troubled Waters, is playable in multiplayer Destruction mode and can also be played by either one or two gamers in the offline Grinder mode. More information about MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf and the new downloadable maps is available at http://www.mechassault2.com. MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf was developed by Day 1 Studios, creators of the original MechAssault for Xbox, in conjunction with FASA Studio, the developers of the award-winning MechWarrior and MechCommander series for Windows and Crimson Skies for Xbox. In MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf, gamers can step outside the 'Mech and live the life of a human pilot in a fresh new single player game. Tanks, VTOLs and BattleArmor offer players plenty of opportunities to rain destruction on their opposition in both single and multiplayer games. Xbox Live gamers can enjoy a whole new level of strategy, as BattleArmor-equipped players 'jack enemy 'Mechs and VTOLs drop supplies to their teammates. Both online and off, MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf offers players an unparalleled gaming experience. For more information about MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf, please visit http://www.mechassault2.com.
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1294
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / The Essential 50 Games
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on: February 21, 2005, 10:46:53 PM
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Even going as far as calling them "important", I sure as hell wouldn't include either "ET" or "Halo." Fuck no. "ET" as an example of a disastrous idea and result? There are too many examples of that to count, so it must get points for being the first in the console gaming world. And "Halo" as an important landmark in gaming? Uh, not quite guys so stop blowing Bungie please. Dear Lord am I getting sick of all the "Halo rulez all, yo" crap that's out there, like we all have to bow before Bungie just because they made "Halo." :roll: ET's failure convinced many retailers to get out of the video game business all together. The sudden lack of retail presence accellerated and deepened the crash. That did open the market for Nintendo. Nintendo had to work hard to overcome retailers fears. In effect they had to abandon the toy model and market the NES as a computer/electronics product. That was a sea change in the industry. Halo's primary importance was that it saved the Xbox. All that graphical power would have been for naught if the user base didn't build enough for Microsoft to stick with it. Halo alone sold enough systems to get more publishers to support the Xbox. Good or bad, we wouldn't have a three horse race in the console market if it wasn't for Halo.
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1295
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Survivor 2/17
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on: February 19, 2005, 10:18:43 PM
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I assumed they didn't get their gear from the sea bottom because: I remember Jeff saying something about how those containers were weighted down or very heavy for some reason, during the competition. They probably couldn't raise it from the sea floor if they wanted to. Yes, but the obvious question is why didn't they open the box right after they won? Why make the trip harder by toting around a heavy weighted box?
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1296
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / 24
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on: February 14, 2005, 06:28:40 AM
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Last 24 hours. Your procrastination time is about up. Good Luck to all the entrants.
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1297
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Still another Mercs Question:
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on: February 12, 2005, 07:08:24 AM
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You can crouch to reduce your visibililty. You can also move more quietly while crouched. If you're quiet you can sneak up behind guards. If the alarm sounds, there's no good way to hide again. I don't think there's any difference in vehicles.
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1298
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Shilling
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on: February 11, 2005, 02:39:41 PM
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If you want to go a little outside the box, you could get a Total Gaming dot Net subscription. It runs $89. It used to be $59 if you had a copy of GalCiv. Obviously that's more than one of those games, but you get: Disciples 2 Ultimate (includes expansions) Galactic Civilizations + Altarian Prophecy ORB WWII: Frontline Command Robin Hood: Legend of Sherwood Celtic Kings The Political Machine The Corporate Machine plus any new games they release before your year subscription runs out. Games auto update, there's no copy protection, you keep the games after your subscription runs out (but can't download new releases, obviously). It's some good gaming if you're into strategy. Here's the Linky.
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1299
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Non-Gaming / Steals and Deals / Jade Empire Preorder Deal (?)
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on: February 09, 2005, 02:56:55 PM
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It looks like all preorders will get the limited edition. Here's Bioware's page announcing it. That's not quite the way I read it. It sounds like they are suggesting that you go into to your local games store and request the limited edition when you preorder. Maybe I'm missing something.
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1300
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Talk Strategy Contest
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on: February 08, 2005, 11:24:08 PM
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Thanks KD for letting me post this announcement: Some of the Gone Gold Alumni may remember that I started a website based on a thread in General Gaming. That site is called Talk Strategy. It's a place for people to get together and swap war stories from their favorite games, but with an emphasis on strategy and tactical games. The point of this message is that it's been one year since I started Talk Strategy and I'm having having a contest to celebrate. Here are the details http://news.talkstrategy.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=459I think there are some pretty decent prizes if you're into strategy games. Thanks to everyone who's supported the site even if they just stopped by every once in a while. If you need something to read, check out some of the stories in the forum, but beware there is a weak forum effect even there. Sorry I haven't been around here too much, but with a newborn it was give up gaming or forum time. I decided to keep gaming.
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1302
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath
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on: January 30, 2005, 11:36:40 PM
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I haven't played the game, but I read one review suggesting that people play through just killing the bosses the first time and then going back through to capture them on the second play. He suggested it made the game feel completely different on the next play through.
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1303
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / [Paper Mario2] Impressions
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on: January 28, 2005, 07:41:31 AM
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...running off the smartest person you are likely to ever meet in your entire life. I'm still here!! :wink: I'm sure he meant Grundbegriff. Actually, I'd like to see someone try to prove they're smarter than Grund. I'm sure there are people who are smarter, but the odds that they're both smarter and capable of winning an argument with him are so small as to be negligible. The important thing is that I think Grund is still around. I just saw something he posted in Off Topic. On topic, I'd like to play PM2 someday, but my time is small and my backlog is huge.
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1305
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Registration Method
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on: January 28, 2005, 07:24:16 AM
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It's hard enough to get lurkers registered, active and posting. Don't do anything to discourage them. Of course, I'm not advocating anonymous posting either. :wink:
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1306
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Vampire worth getting?
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on: January 25, 2005, 08:11:31 PM
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You know, I played Arcanum, loved it, encountered very few bugs. I still play TOEE and have never had a single problem with it. I have vampire and play it to death, have yet to encounter a bug and the performance is just fine, running at 1600x1200 max settings. My machine is about a year old now, so not top of the line by any stretch of the imagination.
Is vampire perfect? Far from it, and perhaps my opinion would be different if I encountered some of the bugs that others are having. Now we know how Troika's test machines are configured. :lol:
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1307
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / LOST - 1/19/05
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on: January 25, 2005, 07:31:54 AM
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Did anyone notice the comic book that Michael threw in the fire. Polar Bears and alien craft. Seems kinda wierd that polar bears would show up on the tropical island. And we still have no clue what the door or the hatch in the jungle is all about. Now the black pyramid. I hate now we have to go through more re-runs for the next couple of weeks. Welcome seabourne! Actually in one of the first episodes we say a flash of Walt reading that comic and what looked like a polar bear. It wasn't until we saw the first polar bear about 7-8 episodes back that it raised questions. Now that it happened a second time it really makes me wonder what the deal with Walt is. God I hope there aren't any Teletubbies comic books on the island for Walt to find! I was reading somewhere on the internet, that some Lost fans had found that exact comic book. It was a Flash/Green Lantern team up where a previous Flash/GL had been duped by the government to capture an alien. Said alien escapes and takes his original captors hostage and plans to destroy the Earth. Modern Flash/GL team up to rescue the older models and save the planet. Why did I write all that? Linky.
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1308
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / To Blonco
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on: January 24, 2005, 03:57:47 AM
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Thanks for the welcome guys. ITs great to be home again. The ol ball and chain is happy that I am back from my journey. We have been extremely busy since I got back. I got a civilian job doing the same thing I did in the military at Lackland AFB, San Antonio Tx. We are looking forward to some calm time together now! Welcome back. I thought you were Ammo? They don't build bombs at Lackland. Heck they didn't even have a runway until Kelly closed. Does this mean you're an instructor now? San Antonio's a fun place. Enjoy.
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1310
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Help finding someones cell phone number
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on: January 20, 2005, 12:38:35 AM
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The industry has been trying to put together some kind of phone book for cell phones. A couple of the major companies have opted out. Even those that are in are having customers opt in. And it's not done yet. In short, there's no simple way to find it. Your best bet is just to google them and hope they put it somewhere online.
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1311
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / ***EA Signs exclusive deal with ESPN*** :'[
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on: January 18, 2005, 06:30:43 PM
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EA has just proven that it's about... oh, say 1000000000000x smarter than Sega.
Its not 1000000000000x than Sega, it's 1000000000000x richer. You mean to tell me Sega couldn't coerce ESPN to sign an exclusive deal prior to this? Or that the deal was for just 2 years? Either way, it was dumb. Thinking the trademark was safe when EA is right there with teh big wallet is horrendously stupid. gellar I'd imagine the deal was longer than two years. However, it's standard in those types of contracts that both sides have opt-out clauses at various points in the term of the contract. The article makes it sound like ESPN exercised their opt-out after EA's exclusive NFL deal. I don't think there's any indication of stupidity on Take 2/Sega's part. They (logically?) assumed that EA couldn't justify spending $300-500 million to get the exclusive license. Whoops.
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1315
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Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Where is OO?
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on: January 01, 2005, 05:09:28 AM
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I used to split my time b/t CG and OO, but since the evil IT admins put in websense, CG is blocked as a gaming site. So i mostly hang there now. Except for the 5 minutes i'm actually not at work! Ooh. Is my site big enough to be blocked? http://www.talkstrategy.comOn topic, I was here and comfortable before GG died. I don't have much time to check in on one site, let alone two, but both seem friendly enough. I'm sure there are cliques on both, but that shouldn't surprise anyone. Sure it would have been nice if the whole GGF crowd could have stuck together. It would have been nice if Rich had been able to keep updating GG. It would have been nice if Joel never left or Bill didn't retire (move). Time rolls on. I'm just happy old GGFs have options to find some of what they enjoyed about GG.
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1317
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Non-Gaming / Steals and Deals / Sunday's Computer / Video Game Ads
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on: December 05, 2004, 01:51:34 AM
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Just this once :wink:
Best Buy
FREE $10 gift card instantly when you spend $75 or more on video games or video game accessories
PS2
$49.99 Ace Combat 5 GTA:SA Dragonball Z Budokai 3 Star Wars Battlefront action pack (includes in-pack action figure) Eyetoy Antigrav Ghost Recon 2 Goldeneye Rogue Agent
$39.99 Jak 3 Yu Gi Oh Rumble Roses Gretsky NHL 2005
$36.99 Squarebob Spongepants the Movie Tak 2 Shadow Showdown
2 for $35 GTA:VC Ghost Recon Socom 2 Soul Calibur 2 Tony Hawk's Underground Kill Switch Jak 2 Ratchet & Clank 2 Midnight Club 2 The Sims Bustin Out Spider-Man ATV Offroad Fury 2
$29.99 Eyetoy American Chopper Cabelas Big Game Hunter NBA Live 2005
$19.99 Rapala Pro Fishing (Free 6 month trial membership to Club Rapala by mail) Nicktoons Movin
$14.99 Outlaw Golf 2 ESPN NHL 2k5 ESPN NFL 2k5
Xbox
$149.99 Xbox holiday bundle
$69.99 Xbox Live 12 month kit
$49.99 Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 Ghost Recon 2 Goldeneye Rogue Agent
$36.99 Squarebob Spongepants the Movie Tak 2 Shadow Showdown
2 for $35 Project Gotham Racing 2 Crimson Skies True Crime Cabela's Dangerous Hunts Simpsons Hit & Run Medal of Honor Rising Sun
$29.99 American Chopper Cabelas Big Game Hunter NBA Live 2005
GC
$99.99 Mario Kart GC bundle
$49.99 Mario Party 5 Metroid Prime 2 Mario Power Tennis Paper Mario 2
$36.99 Squarebob Spongepants the Movie Tak 2 Shadow Showdown
GBA
$79.99 GBA SP
$24.99 Kingdom Hearts Fear Factor Unleashed Backyard Basketball Shrek 2 Donkey Kong Country 2 Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green
PC
$39.99 Half Life 2 LOTR: Battle for Middle Earth Warhammer Dawn of War
$34.99 Armies of Exigo Alexander Men of Valor
$24.99 Joint Operations Joint Operations: Escalation
Circuit City
PS2
FREE $10 gift card instantly with combined pruchase of any video game and video game accessory $19.99 and up
$149.99 PStwo
$59.99 Karoake Revolution Volume 3 Dance Dance Revolution Extreme w/ pad
$49.99 Eyetoy Antigrav GTA:SA Need for Speed Underground 2 Dragonball Z Budokai 3 Ghost Recon 2
$34.99 Jak 3 The Incredibles Backyard Wrestling 2
$29.99 Madden 2005 Night Moves: Wireless dance mat
$16.99 Socom 2 Jak 2 Def Jam Vendetta
Xbox
$149.99 Xbox Holiday Bundle
$59.99 Karoake Revolution Dance Dance Rebolution Ultramix 2 game + pad
$49.99 Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 Ghost Recon 2 Halo 2
$39.99 Xbox Live 3 month kit (w/ Rainbow Six 3 free)
$37.99 Mortal Kombat Deception Tony Hawk's Underground 2
$24.99 Bicycle Casino
$16.99 Midway Arcade Treasures 1
GC
$49.99 Mario Party 6 Mario Power Tennis Metroid Prime 2
$29.99 Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles
$19.99 Luigi's Mansion Super Mario Sunshine
GBA
$79.99 GBA SP (Free wireless headphones)
$28.99 Kingdom Hearts
$26.99 Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls Super Mario Bros. 3
$14.99 Tetrid Worlds Yu-Gi-Oh
PC
$44.99 LOTR Battle for Middle Earth
$34.99 Zoo Tycoon 2
$24.99 Joint Operations Escalation
Target
PS2
$49.99 GTA:SA NFSU2 Dragon Ball Budokai 3 Call of Duty Metal Gear Solid 3 Star Wars Battlefront Smackdown vs Raw LOTR Third Age
$39.99 Tony Hawk Underground 2 Series of Unfortunate Events Spyro Crash Twinsanity Xmen Legends
$32.88 Spongebob Squarepants Movie The Incredibles Shark Tale Tak 2
$24.88 Madden 2005 Spiderman 2
Xbox
$49.99 Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 (Free strategy guide with purchase, $14.99 value) NFSU 2 Ghost recon 2 Call of Duty Halo 2 Star Wars Battefront LOTR Third Age
$39.88 THUG 2 Series of Unfortunate Events Spyro Crash Twinsanity Xmen Legends
$32.88 Squarebob Spongepants Movie The Incredibles Shark Tale
$24.88 Spiderman 2 Madden 2005
GC
$99.99 Mario Kart GC Bundle
$49.99 Mario Party 6 NFSU 2 Metroid Prime 2 Call of Duty Paper Mario 2 LOTR Third Age
$39.88 Baten Kaitos THUG 2 Series of Unforunate Events Spyro Xmen Legends
$38.88 Donkey Konga with bongos
$32.88 Spongebob Squarepants Movie The Incredibles Shark Tale Tak 2
$24.88 Spiderman 2 Madden 2005
20% off Wavebird controller
Nintendo DS
$149.99 Nintendo DS
$37.88 The Urbz Madden 2005
$34.88 Spiderman2
$29.99 Mario 64 DS
$25.88 Ridge Racer DS
GBA
$88 GBA SP (Free Series of Unforunate Events game plus 2 child movie tickets)
$27.88 Kingdom Hearts Pokemon Fire Red Kirby Amazing Mirror Dragonball Z Buu's Fury Yu-Gi-Oh Donkey Kong Country 2 Pokemon Ruby
$24.88 Shark Tale Duel Masters Super Mario Bros. 3 Tak 2 Shadow Showdown Spongebob Squarepants Movie
PC
$46.97 Half Life 2
$42.92 LOTR Battle for Middle Earth Medal of Honor Pacific Assault
$39.99 Pirates!
$32.98 Zoo Tycoon 2
Comp USA
PS2
$49.99 Star Wars Battlefront Goldeneye Rogue Agent Call of Duty Ghost Recon 2
$39.99 Metal Gear Solid 3 Sly 2 Demon Stone Jak 3 Prince of Persia Warrior Within
$24.99 Madden 2005 NBA Live 2005
Xbox
$49.99 Halo 2 Star Wars Battlefront Goldeney ROgue Agent Xmen Legends Def Jam Fight for NY Ghost Recon 2 Call of Duty
$39.99 Prince of Persia Warrior Within
$24.99 Madden 2005 NBA Live 2005
GC
$49.99 Goldeneye Rogue Agent Call of Duty
$39.99 Prince of Persia Warrior Within
PC
$49.99 Vampire Pirates!
$39.99 Sims 2 Axis & Allies World of Warcraft Codename: Panzers Warhammer Dawn of War Pacific Fighters Immortal Elites
$19.99 The Sims Deluxe Kohan 2 LOTR Return of the King
Sears
PS2
$149.99 PStwo
$49.99 Goldeney Rogue Agent NFSU 2 Killzone Ace Combat 5
$39.99 Prince of Persia Warrior Within Metal Gear Solid 3 Ratchet & Clank 3 Sly 2 Jak 3 ATV Offroad 3
$19.99 Rise of Honor ESPN NFL 2k5 ESPN NBA 2k5 Socom 2
Xbox
$149.99 Xbox Holiday Bundle
$49.99 Call of Duty Halo 2 LOTR Third Age Fable URbz Star Wars Battlefront Tiger Woods 2005 Mortal Kombat Deception THUG2 Ghost recon 2
$39.99 NBA Live 2005 Madden 2005
$14.99 SSX Tricky 007 Agent Under Fire
GC
$99.99 Mario Kart GC bundle
$49.99 Baten Kaitos The Incredibles LOTR Third Age Goldeneye Rogue Agent
$39.99 Metroid Prime 2 Pikmin 2 Mario Power Tennis Donkey Konga Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2 Paper Mario 2
$19.99 Metroid Prime Zelda Windwaker Kirby Air Ride Super Mario Sunshine
Nintendo DS
$149.99 Nintendo DS
$39.99 Urbz Tiger Woods 2005 Madden 2005
$29.99 Mario 64 DS
GBA
$29.99 Final Fantasy Dawn of Souls Donkey Kong Country 2
$24.99 Pokemon Leafgreen/Fire Red
$14.99 (nes classic titles) Dr. Mario Castlevania Metroid Zelda Adventures of Link
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1319
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Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Mech type game for Xbox?
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on: November 30, 2004, 06:04:05 AM
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Steel Batallion is the game for you, my friend. Just don't buy the Line of Contact expansion pack. Apparently the online lag problems have been patched. It's not the pain it used to be. <shrug> This info was from a buddy of mine who has it. It was fixed 3 weeks after release. No. It was never fixed for the vast majority of users. It was designed around the Japanese broadband infrastructure. Patches just weren't going to solve the problem. They did resolve the "cloning" problem by the end of the summer. It was too bad they had some great ideas in the online version.
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