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10761  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: What are you buying this week? (9/4) on: September 05, 2006, 05:53:10 PM

Quote from: Destructor on September 04, 2006, 02:44:32 PM

3 Great Games for Girls

I'm, like, so all over this game.

Nothing new for me his week, but I might try and pull a trade for Xenosaga III.
10762  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Velocity Micro - Should have built myself and UPS Sucks! on: September 05, 2006, 05:49:43 PM
If it makes you feel any better, the place I just bought my system from went out of business a month after I got it.  Of course, it was right about the time I started having major issues.  Thankfully we figured out the problem, but I'm still out an extra $160 for the new RAM.
10763  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Disgaea 2 Impressions on: September 05, 2006, 04:30:24 PM

Quote from: -Lord Ebonstone- on September 05, 2006, 02:06:47 PM

While the advanced (high-end) game (and how to get there) is very complex, what's so hard about the basics?

I get the basics, but I know that without understanding the higher-end stuff, I'll end up in the same boat that I did last time:  25 hours in with characters that are so underpowered they can't compete.

Quote
If you'd never played any SRPG before, I can see how it'd be intimidating, but short of that, it's all very straightforward, save for perhaps the Dark Assembly and the Item World, both of which you don't have to touch (or barely have to touch) to complete the main story...

I've played plenty of SRPG's before (FF Tactics, Tactics Ogre, Stella Deus, Disgaea 1), but I'm just having a bitch of a time wrapping my head around this one.  Here's a few things I don't get:

1.  The whole Master-Apprentice thing.  The way I understood it, new recruits are Apprentices of whichever character 'hired' them.  There was something about the Master receiving some of the skills of the apprentice, but how does that work?  Also, do they somehow share XP?

2.  There was a mention of certain characters being tuned to specific weapons, and that you should only have them use those weapons.  How do you tell which weapon they are proficient with?

3.  Do you gain XP from any action, or only from killing enemies?  It seems that some actions give XP during battle, but some others don't.  Also, is there any XP given to the group at the end of battles?  Is XP given for offensive attacks against 'friendly' characters?

4.  How do characters gain additional spells?  I've been using a couple mages up to level 8, and while their one spell is gaining strength (well, gaining a larger range), I can't figure out how to go about getting other spells.

5.  I don't get the whole item 'resident' concept.  The way I get it, if you beat the resident in the Item World, then you can transfer it into other weapons to make them stronger.  Right?  There was also a rather involved bit of explanation about the residents being lawful or unruly or somesuch that made absolutely no sense at all.

Like I said, if I could figure a few of these things out, I may actually enjoy it.  Maybe I'll pull it off the block and give it another shot.  I really do want to like it.
10764  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Disgaea 2 Impressions on: September 05, 2006, 05:06:46 AM
Put in another couple hours, and I officially give up.  I don't have the time or desire to fight through the learning curve.  There's plenty of other stuff to play that doesn't require hours of trying to figure out what the hell I'm doing.

It's up in the trading forum if anyone wants it.
10765  Non-Gaming / Trading Forum / FS: Oblivion (PC), Quake IV, AoE III on: September 04, 2006, 02:21:21 PM
I'm mainly looking for Civ IV and Xenosaga III, but would be willing to go cash as well. 

PC (all prices include shipping):
-  Oblivion (DVD) - $22 **SOLD**
-  Quake IV (CD) - $18 **SOLD**
-  Age of Empires III (CD) - $17

GBA
-  Tactics Ogre (not entirely sure I want to part with this one.  Will depend on the offer)

All boxes & manuals included, and everything in perfect condition. 
10766  Non-Gaming / Hardware / Software Hell / Re: Random BSOD's are going to drive me insane [Problem Solved!] on: September 04, 2006, 03:01:12 AM

Quote from: Kobra on September 04, 2006, 02:12:04 AM

You mentioned you ran memtest?  How could Memtest miss bad ram?  I assumed the ram had already gone through some tough checking.

Yep, I ran it through 10 continuous cycles of Memtest.  Every one of them came up with no errors, so I don't know how it could have missed it.  Strange.
10767  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Have a PSX copy of FFVII? on: September 04, 2006, 01:29:20 AM

Quote from: EddieA on September 04, 2006, 12:31:40 AM

Here's an unopened copy that went for $560. 

To a winning bidder with -1 feedback.  Something tells me he/she's never going to see that $$.
10768  Non-Gaming / Hardware / Software Hell / Re: Random BSOD's are going to drive me insane on: September 04, 2006, 01:27:00 AM
Turns out it was the RAM after all.  Circuit City had 512 sticks on sale today, so I figured I'd take one last shot at replacing components.  Picked up 2 sticks, threw them in, and have been playing Oblivion, Titan Quest, & AoE III without any problems for the last 6 hours. 

I had replaced the original memory with RAM from another system, but I just realized I put in a 256 MB stick instead of a 512 MB (which obviously causes problems in 3D intensive applications).   It sucks that I'm out another $70 (if you recall, the company I bought the original memory from is out of buisness), but at least I know the problem and can game again.

BTW, thanks for all the suggestions and help.  Oh, and Ron, you da man.  Thanks for taking a look at those memory dumps for me.  smile
10769  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Have a PSX copy of FFVII? on: September 04, 2006, 12:09:23 AM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on September 03, 2006, 10:43:44 PM

I would never go without the game- it's one of my favorites and one I replay pretty frequently- but I could care less about which version I have so I'm seriously thinking about selling my black label copy and picking up a GH copy in its stead. 

+1.  I love the game and replay parts or all of it every few years.  If I can get a hundred for my copy, however, I'm all over it.
10770  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Disgaea 2 Impressions on: September 03, 2006, 10:33:16 PM
Picked up Disgaea 2 on Thursday, and my main impression after about 4 hours.  Too.  Many.  Numbers.

Seriously, there are about 8 million numbers all over every single screen.  I'm having a hell of a time figuring out what affects what, how this relates to that, and how to best manage my characters.  I need to RTFM again, but this is one seriously complex game.  I've heard the guide helps to explain better, but I'm not sure I want to drop another $20.  Mainly because I'm not convinced I'll like it enough even if I do figure it all out.  I understand the combat basics, but my gut feeling is that because I don't understand the relationships between everything, I'm going to screw something up along the way and seriously gimp my characters.  This is what ultimately made me quit the first game after about 25 hours.

I'm really wanting to like it, but I'm having a bitch of a time figuring it all out.  If I can even get to point of determining how to ask, I might post some questions here.
10771  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Resident Evil 4. Am I Crazy Insane? on: September 03, 2006, 12:46:10 AM
I wasn't bored, but the sluggish controls ultimately made me quit playing.  I felt like I was fighting the controls and the camera more than I was fighting the zombies/monsters/villagers/whatever.  Tried it for both GCN & PS2 and disliked it on both systems.
10772  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: The Temple of Elemental Evil vs Pool of Radiance? on: September 02, 2006, 05:59:46 PM
ToEE wasn't bad, it was simply boring.  The combat was decent and very faithful to the ruleset, but there wasn't much incentive to keep playing because the story was so incredibly dull.
10773  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: September 02, 2006, 04:56:02 PM
10774  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: September 02, 2006, 04:36:24 PM

Quote from: Marik on September 02, 2006, 03:33:44 PM

Awesome bunch of cat pictures there.

In response, I give what is probably the last image of an owl out there that hasn't had a catchphrase slapped onto it.



There, fixed that for ya.   Tongue
10775  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Weekend Playlist: 3 Day Variety 1/Sep/06 on: September 02, 2006, 02:12:09 PM
Today is reserved for college football, but I'll probably be putting some significant time into Disgaea 2 and Summon Night after the Utah-UCLA game tonight.  I'd also love to play some Titan Quest that I got in a trade yesterday, but my computer still isn't working.  frown
10776  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Should I accept a job as an ASM for a GameStop? on: September 02, 2006, 02:24:11 AM
Are they salaried or hourly employees?  When I read through the first time, it looked like they were salaried employees.  IMO, sometimes 50 hours comes with the territory.  If they were hourly and not getting paid OT, then that's a different story.

EDIT:  It also depends on the frequency of the 50-60 hour weeks.  If it is expected every week, then I can see that they may have a gripe.  If they're salaried and have to put in some long hours 1 week every other month, then they need to STFU.
10777  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: What's the Standard Gaming Rig Now? on: September 02, 2006, 02:16:40 AM

Quote from: Laner on September 01, 2006, 07:01:24 PM

I usually look to the Ars Technica "budget box" recommendations as the bottom line for current gaming.  Last month's guide lists the following:

AMD Athlon 64 3200+
1GB DDR2-667 RAM
GeForce 7600GT

You can get the full details here - http://arstechnica.com/guides/buyer/system-guide-200608.ars/2


Woah, that's my exact rig.  Of course, it's not working right now, but that's a whole 'nother story.
10778  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Should I accept a job as an ASM for a GameStop? on: September 02, 2006, 02:11:49 AM
From the Gamespot article:

Quote
In April, the six alleged that they were wrongfully declared exempt from overtime regulations of the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) and were required to work "in many occasions, in excess of 50 or 60 hours per week."

Oh the humanity!!  70-80 hour weeks would be lawsuit worthy, but 50?   Roll Eyes Sometimes the person in charge has to stay until shit gets done.  As long as it's not expected every week (the article only says 'in many occasions', so it's tough to gauge how much that means), I don't exactly see 50 hours as that big of a deal.

Maybe it's just my personal experience working for 9 years in a small (4 person) business.  50 hours weeks are the norm simply because there's a ton of work to be done.  It never would cross my mind to file a lawsuit over it.
10779  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Guitar Hero 2 Tracks! on: September 02, 2006, 01:59:09 AM

Quote from: motodd on September 02, 2006, 01:51:57 AM

Nirvana; "Heart-Shaped Box"
Alice in Chains; "Them Bones"

 thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup

These just made my night.
10780  Non-Gaming / Trading Forum / Re: The Official GT Trader Feedback List (updated 7/30) on: September 02, 2006, 01:18:39 AM
+1 to Lord Ebonstone
10781  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: I've Been Meaning to Replay that... on: August 30, 2006, 06:45:44 PM
I keep meaning to restart Icewind Dale II & Fallout 2.
10782  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Netflix Guidance: Battlestar Galactica or Firefly on: August 30, 2006, 02:00:32 PM

Quote from: Lockdown on August 30, 2006, 01:30:57 PM

It is unpossible to overrate Firefly.  It is an absolutely brilliant show (assuming of course you don't take everything so seriously as to miss the humor).

What he said.  It's one of those rare shows that simply gets it all right.  The perfect balance of drama & humor, believeable characters, a wonderful cast, and a sense of fun that is missing in 99.9% of all programs.   I can say with no reservations that Firefly is my favorite TV show ever, and I would heartily recommend it to anyone.

I haven't seen BSG yet (can't find anyone around here that rents it  icon_evil), but it definately on my to-watch list.
10783  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Age of Empire DS on: August 30, 2006, 01:14:55 PM

Quote from: TheMissingLink on August 30, 2006, 03:34:08 AM

Quote from: olaf on August 29, 2006, 10:21:30 PM

The map clutter is what made me stop playing it.  It just became tedious analyzing clumps of units.

Ditto.  It got ugly, fast.  And it was waaay too slow-paced.

My feeling as well.  I liked what they were trying to do, but it was just too cluttered and slow.
10784  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: August 30, 2006, 12:44:57 AM
Woo hoo!  I wasn't crazy about the game itself, but that opening cinematic (and accompanying title song) still rank among of my all-time favorites. 
10785  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Xenosaga 2 Impressions? on: August 29, 2006, 08:46:46 PM
Since X3 is out to generally good reviews, I'm considering trying to slog through X2.  How long did it take you guys to finish X2?  I've tried to push through it twice now, and just can't seem to finish.  I get about 10 hours in then hit a major wall of both boredom & frustration.  I absolutely loved the original, but X2 just seems to be missing...something.  I can't put my finger on it, but nothing about the game grabs me like the first one did.

10786  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: August 28, 2006, 11:22:05 PM

Quote from: LoneStarSpur on August 28, 2006, 06:38:29 PM



Isn't that part of the opening cinematic from Vagrant Story?

If I'm right, I get a renewal on my geek card for at least a year.
10787  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: What are you buying this week? (8/28) on: August 28, 2006, 05:28:37 PM
Wow, I had no idea this many people would be into Saint's Row.  Looked rather silly to me, but I'm one of the three people that didn't like GTA either.

I'm sort of interested in Disgaea 2 & Xenosaga 3, but will probably have to wait a couple weeks until I have any cash.
10788  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: August 27, 2006, 03:18:30 PM









10789  Non-Gaming / Hardware / Software Hell / Re: Random BSOD's are going to drive me insane on: August 27, 2006, 02:21:39 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on August 27, 2006, 02:26:47 AM

Quote

One other thing:  Is there any way to decipher the Minidumps the system does when i get a BSOD? 


Yes.  Get me the Hex and I'll help you.

Wow, thanks a million KD.  I'll shoot them over in an e-mail.

Quote
are you using a tin-can power supply? I would suspect that.

Oh, and get the fuck off of the onboard audio. Not only does it not work well (it eats system resources like a fat kid in the Wonka factory) but they tend to not do so well in the driver side.

FWIW, I did change from the included 420W PS to a 450W and a 500W with the same result.  Also, on my last reformat, I didn't install any audio drivers and just let the games run without any sound.  Still had crashes about 15 minutes in (a generic 'Stop' message with no drivers referenced), so I don't think it's the audio.  An external audio card is the next thing on my list to try, but I haven't gotten over to Circuit City yet.

Speaking of Circuit City, I think they're going to ban me from their store soon.  So far I've purchased and returned 2 power supplys, 1 video card, 1 stick of RAM, and I still need to test the power supply.  I feel kinda guilty about it, but I don't have much choice if I want to test the components.
10790  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: A 1,000th post to remember (NSFW) on: August 27, 2006, 02:11:15 PM
You people are just sick and wrong.   icon_twisted  It does beg the question, however:  Is this stuff cached on your drives, or are you out actively searching for it?

Fess up, Warning.  You've got that picure set as your wallpaper. 
10791  Non-Gaming / Hardware / Software Hell / Re: Random BSOD's are going to drive me insane on: August 26, 2006, 08:23:37 PM
Thanks guys.  A couple thoughts:

1.  There's no Starforce on the system.
2.  I've replaced the video card with a 7300 GS, and I still get crashes.
3.  Those temps are post-Oblivion, so they're probably a bit more elevated that what it would normally be.

Since most of the crashes seem to be related to the nforce chipset, I'm starting to think the mobo itself might be bad.  I'm wondering if, since they replaced it right before they went out of business, I might have gotten a refurb mobo that still has issues.  I'm going to check with the manufacturer and see what kind of warranty I've got on it.

One other thing:  Is there any way to decipher the Minidumps the system does when i get a BSOD? 
10792  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Ever had your hair cut by fine young women? on: August 26, 2006, 08:05:57 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on August 26, 2006, 07:24:43 PM

Quote from: Gratch on August 26, 2006, 02:16:20 PM

There's a Bikini Cuts a couple blocks from me.   I've always been tempted to go there, but I just can't bring myself to pay $35 for a haircut.

That's in Utah?   saywhat

Heh.  It's actually been a very funny clash between the hand-wringing conservatives and the business owner.  When they announced Bikini Cuts would be opening, there were all kinds of protests from the 'Won't someone think of the children!' crowd.  Picket signs out front and all.  The city council actually voted that it couldn't open in West Jordan because they said it was an 'adult oriented buisness'.  When Bikini Cuts told them a) it's no worse than what you see at the city-owned pools, and b) we'll sue the pants off you, they reluctantly agreed to give it the go ahead. The salon is doing fairly brisk business from what I understand.   

It's great to see thse people scream foul at anything that shakes up their tiny little world a bit.  If it causes heartburn for the religious whackjobs around here, it's perfectly A-OK in my book.  smile
10793  Non-Gaming / Hardware / Software Hell / Random BSOD's are going to drive me insane [Problem Solved!] on: August 26, 2006, 06:18:42 PM
This is posted at OO too, so some of you may have seen it already.  If not, I'm completely open to any ideas at this point.  Here goes...

I got a new system a couple months back. 3 weeks after I had it, the motherboard crapped out and I sent it back to the manufacturer for a replacement. Ever since I got it back, I've been getting random BSOD's anytime I fire up a game. (it was just randomly rebooting, but I changed the 'System Failure' options to show a BSOD instead). I've tried a number of games (Oblivion, AoE 3, Quake IV, Heroes of Might & Magic V, NWN) as well as 3DMark 2006. I can usually play for 10-30 minutes before the system crashes and I get a BSOD. FWIW, everything works fine with normal applications, and it only has problems running games.

Problem is, I keep getting different BSOD error messages every time it crashes. A few of the more common ones have been:

- General 'Stop' message with no referenced drivers. (this one is the most common)
- 'nvmcp.sys' file (audio driver in the nforce chipset)
- 'nf4_disp.dll' (Geforce video display driver)
- 'driver_irql_not_less_or_equal' error (chipset error again)

If I could just get the damn thing to crash consistently with the same message, at least I'd have a place to start. But it seems to be different every time. Here's what I've tried so far:

- Reformatted and reinstalled Windows (there's nothing on the system now except Windows, Firefox, and a couple games)
- Updated nforce, video, DirectX, and audio drivers. I've used the most recent versions, beta versions, as well as a couple older revisions.
- I've swapped out the power supply, video card, and RAM with brand new replacements. Still get the same crashes.
- Updated BIOS on mobo & video card
- Disabled Cool & Quiet and FanEQ in the BIOS
- Reset BIOS back to factory defaults
- Disabled onboard audio and ran the games with video only
- Disabled audio acceleration
- Checked all temp sensors. All seem to be in acceptable ranges: CPU: 43 C (from BIOS), Case: 107 F (from temp readout on the case), GPU: 57C (from nvidia control panel)
- Ran Memtest and SiSoft Sandra benchmarks with no problems

I'm seriously tearing my hair out here. I've got this brand new gaming machine that I can't do any gaming on! Unfortunately, the shop I got it from has gone out of business between the time I bought it and today (it's another long and sordid tale). That's what I get for buying from a small manufacturer, I suppose.

If anyone has any suggestions of other things I could try, I'm all ears. I'm starting to think I'm pretty much screwed, but maybe you guys can think of something I havent' already tried.

System specs:
- Abit AN8-V mobo (nforce 4 chipset w/onboard sound)
- Athlon 64 3500 CPU
- Geforce 7600 GT video card
- 1 GB RAM
- 160 GB WD hard drive

Thanks!
10794  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: A 1,000th post to remember (NSFW) on: August 26, 2006, 05:15:52 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on August 26, 2006, 03:49:30 PM

WHAT IN THE WORLD DID SHE JUST POOP INTO THAT VASE?!!  retard

Internet commandment #26:  Thou shalt not besmirch the good name of Next Door Nikki.

Damn heathen.
10795  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / A 1,000th post to remember (NSFW) on: August 26, 2006, 03:30:53 PM
Figured I better make my 1,000 post a good one, so here you go.  Just think of it as your early Sunday Skin   ninja:







































10796  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: This Is Fun Pt 3: This Time It's Personal! (possibly NSFW) on: August 26, 2006, 02:18:57 PM

Quote from: Zimix on August 26, 2006, 04:48:02 AM



That is pure class right there...
10797  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Ever had your hair cut by fine young women? on: August 26, 2006, 02:16:20 PM
There's a Bikini Cuts a couple blocks from me.   I've always been tempted to go there, but I just can't bring myself to pay $35 for a haircut.
10798  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Guitar Hero 2 Tracks! on: August 25, 2006, 09:34:11 PM

Quote from: motodd on August 25, 2006, 01:01:24 PM

And for you Primus fans rock out to the original (not a cover) "John The Fisherman". headbang

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/707/707004p1.html

That kicks all kinds of ass.  'John the Fisherman' isn't my favorite Primus song, but that uber-cool that they would provide the original tracks.
10799  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Re: Music question on: August 24, 2006, 04:59:19 AM
A solid 'Meh'.  Not horrible, but nothing I'd choose to listen to.
10800  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Re: Here we go: Help Me Choose an RPG To Play on: August 23, 2006, 12:32:03 AM
Quote
Suikoden 5- Didn't like 3 or 4, but this randomly came in the mail from Gamefly (thanks for not sending me dead rising like I wanted!!), so I figured I might try it out. Hear the intro is slow, game pretty good.

I've never been big on the Suikoden series, but that's just personal preference.  They're all terribly bland and boring with so-so combat.  Didn't try V, but if it's anything like the rest I'd steer clear.

Quote
SMT:DDS2- I liked the first one actually, but the massive encuonter rate and difficulty turned me off. Depward says there is more story in this and its more fun, so it sounds interesting.

SMT:  DDS2 is a hard one for me to judge.  The art, music, and story are all fantastic, but I just couldn't get past the simply ridiculous encounter rate.  It's a game that I really want to like, but is so frustrating that I can't.  I feel your pain on this one.

Quote
Final Fantasy 9- I have played 5 hours of this 4 times or so. I like it. I like the characters. I like the art style. The grpahics are rough and the load times into combat are slow and annoying. Would like to give this a fair shake one day, but concerned I will lose interest again.

I absolutely love FF9.  It's a game that won't blow you away with it's graphics or combat, but it had some of my favorite characters in the FF series (Vivi, in particular).  I'd highly recommend trying to get past the 5 hour 'wall', as I think you'd really like it.  Out of all the games you mentioned, I'd go with this one.

Quote
Final Fantasy 8- Never played more than a few hours-concerned with graphics and same loading issues, but want to play it eventually.

FF8 is decent, but hasn't aged well.  The caracters all seemed like whiny emo kids, and the number of coincidences that just happen to pop up between characters in the story really drag it down.  It also has one of the most annoying combat mechanics ever created in the Draw system.  On the plus side, it has one of the best soundtracks of any FF game.

Quote
Final Fantasy X-2- I know many hate it, but I have been readnig some alternative points of view about it lately at other forums, and I am beginning to think it might be worth trying.

Words cannot express how much I dislike this game.  They took everything that was great about FFX, threw it to the ground, smashed it, spit on it, then dressed it up in a barbie doll outfit.  The game has an intro that is straight out a Britney Spears video for chrissakes.  Unless you are a 12-year-old girl, I wouldn't get anywhere near this game.

Quote
Anything else relatively new, thats not a big name (KOTOR, Jade, Breath of Fire, etc) that you can recommend is great. I generally don't love action rpgs, but it may be time to give something a try. Thanks!

I'll second the votes for Xenosaga, as I really enjoyed it.  You have to be willing to put up with long cutscenes and a convoluted story, but it's easily in my top 3 of this RPG generation.  FWIW, I beat it in about 33 hours.

And I can't let an RPG thread pass without giving a plug for Shadow Hearts:  Covenant.   It's the one game that brought together the whole package for me.  Graphics, sound, story, characters, & combat are all superb and i would heartily recommend it to any fan of the genre.  Definately give it a look if you haven't already.
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