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1361  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 25, 2004, 02:12:33 PM
Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'm waiting for, is for someone to claim to be able to kill someone with an upward palm strike to the beak. That's one of my fav's. :lol:

 To contribute to the thread, It's my personal opinion that (after over 20 years experience in MA), that training without doubt makes a difference. As long as it's the right kind of training. TKD or Karate point fighting is not nearly as applicable (or realistic) as Thai-boxing or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. By the way, being a martial artist AND being a seasoned street fighter, are NOT mutually exclusive.

Well, part of the problem is that "TKD" and "Karate" are very generic terms these days. There are 20 gajillion different schools of each out there, all with their own version of "TKD" or "Karate". Some of them are utterly worthless. Some of them are awesome. It isn't very accurate to say either of them is worthless just because some (or even most) of them are below par.

And I'm not saying that because I'm a big TKD guy - the bulk of my original experience came in Tang So Do.

For my money, I would recommend good ol-fashioned boxing. You arent going to do a jumping spin-kick in a real fight, but having how to throw a good right jap drilled into you is definitely useful. You would also be amazed at how much doing a speedbag, shadowboxing, and plain running and weightlifting help.

Definitely better than nothing at all. I'd take a good martial arts school over boxing any day of the week though. No boxer I know was ever taught how to block kicks, and they are usually susceptible to low blows because they hold their hands too high. They only throw punches and they only expect punches back in return.

I agree, however the fact the situation is serious enough that somebody might get injured or killed doesn't mean somebody should or must be. There are people in jail right now who were legitimately defending themselves and went over that line in fighting back. There was that Harvard law student not that long ago, that got jumped by two guys and stabbed one of them 3 times and killed him. They said in charging him with first degree murder, that you can create pre-meditation between the first and second stabs and that any reasonable person should know that stabbing somebody multiple times might kill them. He was only found guilty of second degree murder I think and got something like 20 years.

If you were able to solar plexus somebody they obviously weren't much of a challenge for you, thus that was extreme IMO. You just admitted you are aware that a shot to the solar plexus CAN kill somebody. That is more than enough for a lawyer to take you down. Thanks for the apology.

Vagabond you really need to stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said someone has to be seriously hurt or killed in every fight, and as I plainly spelled out the only fights I've been in I haven't seriously hurt or injured anyone. What part of that don't you understand?

Secondly, the solar plexus lies in the center of the chest. It is a decently big target and quite easy to hit with most people. It does no permanent damage but ends a fight very very quickly. As I already stated and as you would know if you actually *knew* anything, punching someone in the solar plexus is not going to kill them. Unless you do it with a knife in your hand. So no, this is not enough for a lawyer to 'take me down' because nobody is going to die from it. Nice of you to take an apology that was not and will not be offered though. Is there any reason to go acting that stupid?
1362  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 24, 2004, 10:01:51 PM
Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'd like to know, is how the encounter with two knife wielding opponents turned out. I'd really like to hear the details on this one. Not that it can't be done, but it'd be one in a million. Unless you simply out ran them. biggrin

You don't understand. He is Teh Streetfighter!
1363  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / How Much Would You Pay...? on: December 24, 2004, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: "Caine"
Quote from: "dbt1949"
It's called "Alzheimers".

i don't know who wrote this:
"the nicest thing about alzheimers is you get to meet new people every day"

no offense intended to those with the disease or those who have afflicted relatives.

My grandmother has alzheimers you fricking wanker!

Just kidding. She really does have it, but I'm not mad biggrin
1364  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 24, 2004, 12:34:06 AM
Quote from: "mori"
I lost a post in there somewhere :?: .

My experience is different from yours then.

I'd seriously like to hear your experience then.
1365  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 23, 2004, 11:42:45 PM
Quote from: "mori"
I am also not a fan of martial arts training.  Young men get a little knowledge and they want to try their skilz out and proceed to get their faces rearranged.

I've been a part of multiple schools in a lot of different places. Never once seen a single student come in beat up, nor as far as I know start a fight.
1366  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 23, 2004, 11:33:13 PM
Quote from: "Rhinohelix"
I have had several jobs that involved violent physical interaction.  I have "fought" a considerable amount.  I have also studied several martial arts, although I am much more intermediate than expert in any.  I am a dabbler smile  I take what I find useful and then move on, mostly.

I think it is very important to try different styles. Unless you can go out and get honest-to-god ninja trained, none of the martial arts out there is truly complete in my opinion. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and if you can learn the strengths and then learn another style then you end up well-rounded.

I would like to find an art that is focused on as much grace as effectiveness, which was always my previous priority.

Some of the kung-fu styles are extremely graceful, but sadly my experience with them is too limited to point you in the right direction. Of the styles I've personally tried, ITF Tae Kwon Do fit that bill the best. Sadly, the ITF has since dissolved, which is a tragedy in my eyes. ITF consistently had the highest standard in their schools that I've seen. Granted most of my experience with them was in Australia, but if you earned say a blue belt with them, you not only earned it but any other ITF school you went to the people there had earned it too.  Anyways, the reason I consider it graceful is because the style really evolved over time. They had sports physiologists analyze all the movements and tried maximize power efficiency. As a result, there is a lot of graceful use of gravity in the moves, not the forced head-always-level-at-all-times you see with more traditional styles. They tend to flow more from one stance to another. Of course I'm comparing this to traditional japanese karate and the older korean martial arts such as Tang Soo Do.

If I am fighting for my life I kill you in 2 seconds, end of story, no time to talk about it or think about it later. I can tell the difference, before hand.

Well again I take issue with that to a certain degree.  While *you* might,  you would have achieved this ability by years of study and preparation, either by conscious decision or unwitting environmental conditioning.  The vast majority of people could not.   Not even to save their own lives.

In all frankness given the guy seems to be generally talking out his ass I'd be surprised if he could. The human body may be surprisingly frail but it takes some learning to kill someone that quickly and actually be able to pull it off against another person who is defending themselves. Sure he might actually know *how* to kill someone quickly but being able to execute is another matter altogether.

Well, I would say that someone who had *some* training who attempted to utilize it would most likely be beaten, depending on the skill of the combatants.   If you are having to think about what comes next or how a kata fits into the current fight, it isn't going to work out against someone with experience.

That's an interesting point. It comes down to that old saying 'a little knowledge is dangerous'. One of the big gripes I have with most martial arts schools out there these days is they are far too soft on their students. They don't grind the technique into them the way it needs to be done in order for said technique to become instinctive. Because really that is what it all comes down to. Training to the point where your natural reaction has changed from what a 'normal' person would do into what a true practitioner would do. As a quick example, a side kick. in most martial arts the 'side kick' is a somewhat slower, very powerful kick where the heel is driven forward from basically the hip. Now the natural human reaction when someone kicks you is to jump back. Of course, if the distance is right and you step *forward* you can blunt the kick off and actually throw the person off-balance without them hurting you. Problem is, for most people, when you teach them that in order to implement it during a fight they have to think about it. That fraction of a section of decision-making while they consider whether or not to step forward is enough that they are screwed if they now attempt it. So, they either get kicked or give it up and block instead. But, if you train enough, you step forward without pause or hesitation, and suddenly the situation changes in your favor.

All in all, people with real skills avoid fights or have the fight brought to them.  I have seen a couple of instances where the people who were trained were predators but those were anti-social people with obvious personality disorders, much more the exception than the norm.

Great call there. It takes a certain type of person to go looking for a fight. Most of those types of people have serious authority issues in my experience and don't ever last long in good martial arts schools. Not to say that is always the case, unfortunately.

Bruce Lee was 130 pounds soaking wet. Was he good at martial arts? Sure he was. Could he take on two guys twice his size at once in a real fight? Very doubtful and certainly not ten or a hundred at once. Anybody can be overpowered, even by those with no fighting skills at all.

This makes everything the author said previously that was correct blind luck. smile

Glad I wasn't the only one who found that amusing biggrin

Experience is the "tires" of fighting: its how training "the engine" gets its power to the road "the situation".  A scrimmage isn't a game under hot lights with the crowds roaring, though, either.  Sorry for whipsaw-changing metaphors. smile  Experience allows one to better apply the skills that one has to the fight, knowing what to do when, and how to react to certain events.  Its not the end-all be-all, though.  Having a ton of experience is an advantage, like many others one could have or not have in any given situation.  Its great to be trained but if you are blinded by mace with no experience in blind-fighting, you could be a MMA master and it still save you. slywink

The tires/engine analogy is a good one. I think two things control how well you can actually apply what you know in a pressure situation: one is experience, the other is 'will'. Will is a poor word for it though. As I said, some people are wired to fight. They thrive on it in some form or another. Others naturally shy away from it. The question is, when the fight or flight instinct kicks in, which do you tend to do? Fight or flee? If it is 'flee' and you are forced to fight you will likely do a poorer job of executing what you know than someone whose instinct is to 'fight'. Experience can moderate those influences greatly also...

Hell sometimes it comes down to your own mood even, or the situation. The roommate I had in college and I were both martial arts instructors. This was known by quite a few people as we had given self-defense classes to some of the sororities on campus. Anyways, one saturday night we're hanging out being dorks playing computer games. Some drunk kids from a nearby school and come by and as a group laid a hurting on someone we knew at a small party. Someone from the party came over to get us to help get things under control. We went, not to go pick a fight but just to stop it if things got stupid. Well, I was 3/4 asleep, really in a mellow and peaceful mood. Suddenly faced with this situation where we might be in a fight, adrenaline caught me all wrong. My teeth were chattering and it wasn't particularly cold. Had the shakes a little. I wasn't scared per se but that night I definitely wasn't in 'fight' mode biggrin Never felt like that before or since, but holy crap did that suck!

It just means movies are unrealistic.

I tend to be a movie-fight snob.  The more the fight looks stylistic or realistic, the more I like them. smile  The two tend to be mutually exclusive.  Movie-like moments do happen, though.  I have seen people do some amazing things. smile


True enough. Not all moves are unrealistic, just the majority of them. And when you have two martial artists who know their stuff it can be pretty awesome to watch. Went to watch my roommate fight in a tournament south of atlanta one time and saw him almost knocked out by a jump spinning hook kick. Was freaking awesome, though he didn't think so at the time biggrin

Likewise in a classic comedy moment, my brother and his friends got in a fight with a bunch of chinese guys once outside a pizza hut. One guy from each group had said something stupid inside, and the chinese guys left. So a little bit later my brother and his friends leave, and the chinese guys come out of nowhere and attack them in the parking lot. So my brother is standing near the car, and this dude just runs right at him and leaps into the air doing a flying side-kick. My brother steps to the side and watched him fly right past him and land in the bushes biggrin Few things funnier than martial arts gone wrong.

EDIT: Fixing quote tags.
1367  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 23, 2004, 04:50:22 PM
Quote from: "vagabond"
This is psychotic, if you treated them all the same everybody would be dead. If I am fighting for my life I kill you in 2 seconds, end of story, no time to talk about it or think about it later. I can tell the difference, before hand.

It isn't psychotic. It is the reason why sane people who know what they are doing don't walk around getting in fights. If a fight isn't serious enough for someone to be injured or killed, then it isn't worth fighting over.

You are the one that thinks his skills are so good it will work 100 percent.

Please quote me where I said anything even remotely close to that. I'm here all day.

In actuality I would worry less about somebody with martial arts training because they are far more likely to be overconfident.

Again talking about things you know nothing about. Someone who has *real* martial arts training knows the true dangers of picking random fights. The simple truth is, you never know what the other guy knows. You never know how good he is. Some random joe you pick a fight with in the street or in a bar could be twice as good as you and you could end up dead. Even when you've no intention to hurt someone seriously it is possible by freak accidents for people to die. So, you avoid fights at all costs and if you do get stuck in one, you're wary as all holy hell.

You are and in my opinion you have used far too much force in previous engagements. This is what martial arts got you.

Now you're just being amusing. I've never broken a bone or seriously injured someone in my entire life. Why? Because I have control, something which is emphasized over and over again in training. I've never started a fight in my life, and I've never lost a fight in my life. At the same time I've never seriously hurt anyone in my life. That's what martial arts has gotten me.

I don't even have to see you and I know for a fact I could beat you just because of your attitude. You are not discussing, you are rambling about nothing.

Riiight. We'll never know if could beat me or not because we'll never fight. Why? because I don't see myself as mr 'streetfighter'. I avoid fights. My attitude is you're someone who has no clue what he's talking about and is trying to sound impressive and tough on the internet. Congratulations, you are a winnar!

You are hilarious. If I am fighting for my life and I gouge your eyes out of your head nobody is going to mind. If however, after the tennis match I jump the net and do it, the white shirts would come and get me. Your analogy is absurd. You have trained to fight but you don't know anything about fighing. It's like somebody reading every book they can find on how to play the guitar but never actually picked a guitar up. Then act like they are an expert. You sorely need to read Sun Tzu's art of war for a start and you need to take a chill.

And this is more random crap. You obviously don't have the faintest clue what my analogy was. I compared fighting to playing a tennis match for illuminate the effect of training. Again, martial arts comes from hundreds of years of people fighting, learning how best to do it and systematically eliminating the bad techniques. So, when someone goes to a good martial arts school, they are trained in fighting techniques. Then real fighting situations are simulated as realistically as possible without anyone getting seriously hurt. All of this is done so that said person can defend themselves as best as possible should a real situation arise.

Now, if you want to pretend that people don't get better at things by practicing them then that's great. But your guitar example shows you have no clue whatsoever. Learning martial arts isn't like reading books on playing the guitar. It is like being taught how to play the guitar by an expert. What I find absolutely hilarious is that you follow up your example of 'reading books not meaning you can play the guitar' by telling me to read a book!

Then you're an idiot.

Lastly I do have to apologize for this comment. However true or untrue it might be it was uncalled for.
1368  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Almost Genius... The Autobiography of Drazzil on: December 23, 2004, 02:36:00 PM

So we don't de-rail I opened discussion in another thread.
1369  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Random Fighting Discussion on: December 23, 2004, 02:17:13 PM
Just so we don't de-rail Drazz's thread.

Quote from: "vagabond"
There are 3 kinds of fights, one the shoolyard kind where at the first sign of any real harm the fight gets broken up and both sides know this. Two, one in which real harm must take place in order for the fight to end. Third, a fight for your life. The abilities and skills needed for these fights are not the same. That is one problem I have with formal martial arts is it treats them all the same.

See but you're wrong. Because as far as the fighters are concerned, how do you know which one it is going to be before you start? Kids have been killed in schoolyard fights (albiet rarely), just like sometimes grown men shove a few times and walk away. You threat them all the same because you never know for sure which it is going to be until it is over. Of course, how it turns out depends partly on what you do, which is why you a) walk away if at all possible, and b) if there is a fight you end it fast and end it hard so it can't turn into #3.

I have been attacked by two people at once with knives. There is nothing you can tell me about actually fighting that I don't already know.

Didn't realize a single experience made you all-knowing about fighting. That attitude will get you trouble fast.

I have never had a fight take longer than a minute, usually 15 seconds and it is over. I rarely have been scratched in all these engagements.

If a fight is going on longer than a minute, something is seriously wrong. It is technically possible if you've got two guys who are tough, know what they are doing and are fighting til one of them doesn't get up. But short of that, most fights are over very quickly. My point was, which perhaps I didn't make too clearly, two of those fights I had were against the same guy who had done his share of fighting before, and outside of training, I'd never fought for real. I walked away without a scratch.

I am not a big guy and have never been in a fight with anybody smaller than I. Matter of fact, my worst nightmare is not a huge guy coming after me, it is somebody just a little bigger, a little faster, a little stronger.

Then you're smart. Huge guys have lots of vulnerabilities. It is the person a lot faster than you that you have to worry about most, provided he isn't a LOT weaker than you.

I have ended most fights of the first or second type by smashing the persons lips. Young men are very concerned by their looks and knowing they are going to look like they got pounded in the face for a month makes them want to stop fighting really fast. However, I was always making an effort to do as little damage as possible to end the situation. Hitting somebody in the solar plexus could kill them.

It is extremely difficult to kill someone by hitting them in the solar plexus. If you catch the chest over the heart you can throw the heart out of rhythm, but the solar plexus is below that. If you hit them so hard that you crack their sternum then it is possible, but it's pretty freaking hard to break a sternum with a punch. I've been kicked in the solar plexus before pretty hard in sparring, and I've kicked people there in sparring too. Still alive to talk about biggrin

Partly why I talked about martial arts is because people are deluded into thinking they work like they do in the movies. A grown man punches another in the mouth and it explodes and your lips come apart. There isn't another punch after that. They don't punch each other ten times and then have a little scratch on their face after.

Ok, but very shortly after starting to learn martial arts people realize it is nothing like the movies. So are martial arts useless because of the popular misconception or because of your misconception? Do you think people who learn martial arts believe it is like the movies? I don't know how many movies you actually watch, but 99% of fight scenes in most movies are unrealistic, and that isn't limited to martial arts. Most boxing scenes in movies, street fight scenes in movies... in the movies people get right up after hits that would end a fight in real life. That doesn't mean that boxing is useless, or that street fighting is useless. It just means movies are unrealistic.

Bruce Lee was 130 pounds soaking wet. Was he good at martial arts? Sure he was. Could he take on two guys twice his size at once in a real fight? Very doubtful and certainly not ten or a hundred at once. Anybody can be overpowered, even by those with no fighting skills at all.

So you apparantly took on two guys with knives, lived to talk about it, and you're saying that someone who devoted his whole life to training for fighting couldn't beat two unarmed guys bigger than him? Is this the point where we realize you're talking out of your ass?

You can be trained for war but that is not the same as fighting when the guy in your foxhole's head comes apart. Only 30 percent of men in war even fire their weapons at all. They were all highly trained and screened beforehand. It is the difference between having veterans and green troops. This is something you cannot duplicate in martial arts nor can you know how you will respond beforehand.

Except it all comes down to the extent of training doesn't it. Some people are naturally wired for fighting, be it fisticuffs, guns, swords.. whatever. They take to it naturally, and so long as they have the physical abilities to match their will they excel at it. But if you're going to tell me that practicing fighting makes you useless then again you're talking out of your ass.

Because you seem to forget what martial arts are. It is structured fighting, evolved over hundreds of years originated by people who were fighting for their lives. It is people who took street fighting in some form, threw out the crap and turned it into a systematic, tested way of fighting. Sure a lot of the bullshit martial arts schools out there these days are a far cry from that. But what it comes down to is technique and training.

If you plucked some random guy on the street who had never played tennis before in his life, I would bet my life that Roger Federer would beat him in a match. Heck, I would bet my life that *I* could beat him in a match. Why? Because I've learned the technique of tennis and played it practically my entire life. I've trained at it. When a ball comes over the net I know what to do.

Fighting is little different, it just takes more will. Given equal physical ability, someone who is taught how to fight with proven techniques and trains will be better than someone who teaches themselves. Now again experience counts for a lot, but the whole point of any kind of contact sparring is to bridge the gap between training and real fighting. I've been kicked in the chest, punched in the face, kicked in the balls... all in sparring. I've been hit harder and more often in sparring than in any real fight I've been in. Why? To prepare you for the real thing. That's what it is all about.

I could know for certain a person was good at martial arts prior to fighting and it wouldn't affect how I treated the fight one iota. It's irrelevant.

Then you're an idiot. If I know for certain I'm fighting a boxer vs a tae kwon do guy, vs a grappling guy then it changes things a lot. If you are so arrogant you think you can 100% hit someone or do whatever you want to them no matter what they know, then good luck with your fighting because it'll probably get you killed some day.[/quote]
1370  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Almost Genius... The Autobiography of Drazzil on: December 23, 2004, 12:58:11 PM
Quote from: "vagabond"
Martial arts is fine if you want to improve your physical condition, but it's no better than a good exercise program. It's great for self esteem, if you need it and take it the right way. What it is not going to do for you is enable you to get through any situation in life using pure force. This is movie crap too. Martial arts is just one method of fighting, so is street fighting.

Just have to throw 2 cents in here and disagree with this whole paragraph. Bad martial arts is only good for fitness and exercise. And there are plenty of bad martial arts schools out there. It is not a waste of time if you find a decent school and have the will to train properly. Sure it is 'just another way of fighting'. However, you are taught to fight systematically by people who are experts at it. "Street fighters" learn the hard way so their lessons are painful and effective, but also limited.

I would take a good street fighter who has actually been in fights over any martial artist who has only been sparring any day of the week.

Then you're crazy. That's like saying you'd take anyone who has actually played stickball over Ichiro if he only ever hit batting practice. Whoever wins a fight comes down to a combination of natural abilities, knowledge and experience. Greater experience doesn't automatically equate to victory. And while there is no complete substitute for a real fight, light to moderate contact sparring goes a *long* way to bridging the gap. Combined with the greater knowledge a decent martial artist has, normally it is more than enough.

I had one guy tell me he was a black belt in karate right before I stomped his ass. I never had a day of martial arts training.

Err... greater than 70% odds this guy was some random joe just trying to scare you, or he was from some rent-a-school. All of the true black belts I've known wouldn't ever bother telling someone they had a black belt right before a fight. 1) Why give up the element of surprise and let your opponent know to expect kicks, and 2) You never know what the other guy knows. If he is a martial artist too and knows what style you practice he can be more prepared for certain things. Btw, I have a Magneta belt with pink polka dots. Do you believe me too?

It has a lot more to do with knowing your limitations so you don't get into something you aren't capable of getting yourself out of. More importantly, having confidence and courage.

This is very true. That's another reason why most true martial artists don't fight. Because they realize no matter how good you are random things can make a situation very bad very fast, so they avoid it altogether when possible. And also because they have trained, they have confidence, which breeds courage. That confidence makes people back down a lot of the time.

I'll just say very quickly that of the few real fights I've been in, I've been hit only once - a glancing blow to the forehead that I didn't even feel until the next day when I had a slight bruise that I couldn't actually see. And I've never had to kick anyone or even pull any 'real' martial arts moves. Came down to being able to stay calm because of all the practice, use my blocks and punch the other guy in the face and solar plexus a few times. Usually one *good* hit to the solar plexus will end any fight against 95% of the population.
1371  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Who is this female singer? (No picture/name..) on: December 19, 2004, 07:00:07 PM
She had red or brown hair and looked hot.

I think the only solution is for people to keep posting pictures of hot women until we find the person he is looking for!
1372  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / New Batman Begins Trailer on: December 15, 2004, 12:42:07 PM
Ok that was so awesome I almost peed my pants.
1373  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Earthsea on: December 14, 2004, 02:28:32 AM
Very underwhelming so far. Could they have found a worse actor to play Gedd's father?
1374  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Monday Monkey 12-13-2004 on: December 13, 2004, 05:21:08 PM
Confident in a small amount of makeup to protect him, President Bush spent a day in the park incognito.
1375  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Sportsman of the year...Peyton Man... on: December 08, 2004, 10:31:51 PM
Quote from: "Devil"
I just know he drives you guys nuts.

Actually Devil, it is you with your constant pimping of him that drives me nuts slywink Brady is fine in my book because he seems to have his head screwed on straight, although the fact his sister is working that much while being a single mum and going to school is a little disturbing Tongue
1376  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Sportsman of the year...Peyton Man... on: December 08, 2004, 03:52:27 PM
Good for Brady. He seems like a classy guy from everything I've seen. Pity some of his fans aren't as classy slywink
1377  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Earthsea on: December 06, 2004, 10:32:17 PM
Well Ursula herself had some scathing comments to make. Ouch. I guess I'll just go in pretending it has nothing to do with the books at all and go from there Tongue
1378  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 06, 2004, 01:56:17 PM
Quote from: "Devil"
Noticed the 2 picks weren't in your stat line.  :wink:

Donovan McNabb - 32/43 464 YDS,  5 TDs, 0 INT vs a team with 7 wins


Carson Palmer - 29/36 382 YDS, 3 TDs, 1 INT vs Baltimore. Palmer played outside too! MVP!!!!

Because clearly the MVP award should be given out for performing well in one game slywink
1379  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / Best Game of All Time, Final Round! on: December 04, 2004, 09:13:02 PM
1380  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Batman Begins - Teaser Poster on: December 04, 2004, 09:11:54 PM
Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
Begins what?

They are taking the franchise back to the start and hopefully doing it right this time slywink I think that's what is with the "Batman Begins" part. It is also why the batmobile looks like that - it is a prototype military vehicle, hardly the streamlined thing that we can expect Batman to end up in once he has his shit together.
1381  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Chronicles of Riddick - Director's Cut = Cool! on: December 03, 2004, 04:52:26 PM
I was a bit disappointed when I watched this yesterday. Might have helped if I had seen Pitch Black before it, but still there was potential for a lot more there I thought. The one moment the film just completely lost me was when Riddick was 'read' by those freaky half-dead things with the 'glass' stuff shattering... and Dame Vaako is watching from above and she says "Who is this man?" to herself. It just felt so... off that I completely lost what immersion in the film I had.

Other than that it was a decent enough sci-fi action flick.
1382  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 03, 2004, 04:33:40 PM
Manning wouldn't fit on the Pats.  You'd have to cut a bunch of other players, so the Patriots wouldn't be what they were.  It'll be interesting when Brady's contract is redone though, but right now Brady is a far better value then Manning.

Partly depends how you define value. Bang for buck right now he's better value, because Brady is underpaid. The other thing is, the Patriots don't *need* a Manning behind center.

You are watching games I'm not then, and I think I've seen them all.  The Pats receivers don't get any more wide open then Colts.  Most of the Colts highlights I've seen have guys running 3 or 4 steps ahead of their guys downfield for Mannings throws.   Both the Colts and Pats have good offensive planners and get the players open.  

Both teams get open recievers. What I am talking about is people *wide* open on important plays. Consistently with the Patriots I have seen 3rd and long in big game situations where the other team goes into some kind of a soft prevent defense that apparantly involves giving the WR a 10' cushion.

I don't understand the scheme part?

The scheme part was in reference to Devil, who for some reason seems to think people blame the scheme for Manning's interceptions? I don't know what he's talking about half the time biggrin

Manning is a good QB having a great year.  But until he wins the big game without melting down, he isn't a special player, at least to some.  Its not like he was a big winner in college, then a big playoff winner either.  I just still remember the beating the Jets gave the Colts when Manning didn't play well, and the bad decisions against NE.

Do those 'some' consider Marino to be not a 'special player'? Because let's face it - at the rate Manning is going he at the very least going to be competitive with Marino as far as stats go. He's on track to completely shatter the TDs in a season record. I think at some point you have to give the guy credit for being more than 'good'.

On another note, I have to admit I was a bit disappointed in his contract negotiations. I really expected him to cut a deal so the Colts could make some serious upgrades on the defensive side of the ball. I hope he keeps playing like God the rest of this season and they win the whole thing because after this year things are going to change a bit methinks.
1383  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 02, 2004, 09:30:47 PM
Quote from: "Devil"
The thing I LOVE about the Manning argument is that the Peyton Suck-Ups get so pissed when Brady and/or winning is mentioned.

The double standards come flying. Brady throws in TDs and it was The Team/The Scheme/The Coaches/ The Weather/ etc., but when Manning does it, the only explanation is his all-world greatness. Manning throws INTs and the opposite is true.

See I don't believe I have a double standard in this regard. I freely admit that Brady is a very smart QB who makes great decisions out on the field. I think he gets more credit than is due to him in some instances because a lot of the throws he makes are to people who don't have a defender within 10 feet. It blows my mind that it happens in important games, but it does. Kudos to Brady for seeing the open man and getting him the ball, but I'm not going to fall over myself to call the guy great for it.

I just consistently see Manning put the ball in much tighter spots on a regular basis. He makes some incredible throws. He has to because the team depends on him to score a lot of points in order to win. When Manning throws ints, it is Manning's fault. Not the scheme. His. Just like any human being, he makes bad decisions now and then. And when he is constantly pushing the edge, a mistake on his part usually is a big one. That's the nature of the beast.


He played GREAT in the Denver game last year, but wasn't that the game where Harrison was laying on the ground and the Broncos decided to let him get up and walk 50 yards to the end-zone?

Same game. But that doesn't account for the other 4 touchdowns he threw that day. Or the fact the Colts didn't send their punter out on the field for two whole games of the playoffs.

This should get you going:
The reason the Colts lost the AFC Championship game last year was because of Manning. Big game. Choke.  biggrin

Yup. Big game, Manning made a few bad decisions and the Patriots defense came up big. And because the Patriots are a better team, they won. The Colts D just isn't capable of winning games without a *lot* of help from the offense, and in that game they got no help at all. End of story.

Still have to wonder why you take such delight in harping on this stuff no matter how many times people concede it.
1384  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 02, 2004, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: "Devil"
Tom Brady led the league in TD passes and he never got the MVP.

Except he also threw 14 picks and had an 85.7 passer rating. MVP indeed.

It's a team sport. Those TDs were due to his WRs making catches and his line blocking.

And this is where you lose credibility with me. Because when the Patriots recievers make catches and the O line blocks, you still give all the credit to Brady and talk about what total crap the Patriots offense is other than him. Obviously more than one person in that offense is doing something right if Brady could lead the NFL in TDs in 2002.

Or if Mr. October doesn't throw 4 picks they might have a better playoff experience. Sorry, I forgot, those were team INTs. The touchdowns, though, were all Peyton! :p

They weren't team ints. They were Manning's ints. And that's the difference between Brady and Manning. Brady can have a bad game and still win. If Manning has a bad game then they lose. Mr. October also lit up Denver the previous game when they had one of the best pass defenses in the league. Against the Pats he played a great defense and he had a bad game.
1385  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 02, 2004, 03:53:25 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
so simplistic that the best thing you can do is say "TWENTY THREE PICKS WITHOUT JAMES!!!!!!" like a trained monkey?

Why do you feel the need to call other people names to get a point across?  Do you think people will take your arguments more seriously because of this?

I don't feel the need. I chose to. Because I was hoping we could have a discussion not have someone repeat the same thing with caps lock on over and over again.

The point a few of us are making is that QB play isn't all about numbers.  There are a lot of other factors involved, and the responsibilities of the players at the position are different.  Quite a few of those TD passes were against the NFC North.  Hardly something for Manning to brag about.

A. I don't see Manning bragging.

B. At the end of the day, the QB's job is the lead the offense to scoring points whilst avoiding turnovers. Given that Manning's team is both winning AND he is putting up incredible numbers, that would indicate more than a little that he is doing his job very, very well. That would put him at the very least in the running for MVP.

C. "The responsibilities of the players at the position are different". That sums it up right there. There are some QBs in the league whose job isn't so much to win the game as it is not to lose it. If they consistently get within field goal range and don't turn the ball over then it is considered a success. In Manning we are talking about a team that lives and dies by his arm. If he plays well, they win. If he doesn't, they lose. It is all on him because he is the central piece to that team. The most valuable piece.

And see? I can do it without calling someone a moron when they don't act like one slywink
1386  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Fantasy Football Question on: December 02, 2004, 12:16:45 PM
Only play the matchup game if it will get you more points. I mean Westbrook catching stuff from McNabb doesn't offset a thing if Barber gets more points for you vs Washington. Keep it to basics. If you like the matchup Westbrook has over Barber, then take him but don't do it because McNabb is the one throwing to Westbrook.

Who do you think will score more points?
1387  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Karate Chimp on: December 01, 2004, 09:51:07 PM
HOly crap that is the coolest chimp of all time.
1388  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 01, 2004, 09:47:19 PM
Don't know if you noticed, but James' backup actually did a pretty solid job that year. Is your view of football really so simplistic that the best thing you can do is say "TWENTY THREE PICKS WITHOUT JAMES!!!!!!" like a trained monkey? So Manning had a bad year. The following year, with James he threw 19 picks. Big deal. He also threw more than 25 TDs both seasons.

And to date, this season he has 7 picks for 41 TDs. Seems to me he is doing his job better than any other QB in the NFL. If the Colts defense steps up and does their job, then maybe the *team* will have a better playoff experience this year.
1389  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: December 01, 2004, 03:47:00 AM
I think there is one important thing some people are losing sight of - what a player's job is.

The job of the offense is to score points. The job of the QB is typically to 'run' the offense and guide it on its way to scoring points. The defense is then supposed to stop the other team from scoring *more* points.

Depending on how well the offense and defense do their jobs, the team wins or loses.

Now how you can call a single player on a team a 'winner' or a 'loser' based on the performance of the *other* half of his team is beyond me. Manning goes out there and puts points on the board. His offensive line gives good pass protection but is hardly dominating. Harrison is undoubtedly a great WR, but there is a reason Wayne and Stokely aren't primary recievers for other teams. Manning makes those guys better than they would otherwise be. He runs his offense with greater control than any other QB in the NFL and does it exceptionally.

When the Colts met Denver in the playoffs last year, Denver was 6th in passing yards allowed per game. They were 8th in passing touchdowns allowed per game. And Manning tore them to pieces. That he struggled against a Patriots defense that had dominated the NFL all season long doesn't make him a loser - it makes him human.

But when it comes down to it, this year Manning is getting the job done better than any other QB in the league. Whether he can carry that lame-ass defense through the playoffs remains to be seen.  He's getting paid enough he ought to be able to, but we'll see biggrin Either way, he is the best QB in the NFL right now, and if he keeps at his current pace when he retires he'll be viewed as one of the best ever, regardless of whether or not his team wins a Superbowl.
1390  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: November 30, 2004, 02:10:26 PM
Quote from: "Scott"
It was Manning, against a pretty vanilla defense, who made the bad choices and cost the Colts the game.

Err... you just called the Patriot's defense 'pretty vanilla'? And somehow the rest of what you said is supposed to be believable after that? biggrin
1391  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / The record book is Peyton's Place! on: November 30, 2004, 03:35:23 AM
Devil's just jealous Jeff because he wishes Brady were half as good slywink

There is no doubt he's a good QB but what I'm saying is that there are a few guys in the league right now who have done more with far less to work with.

I mean stuff like this is just nonsensical. The point Jeff made originally is that *nobody* has done more at the QB position than Manning this year. Nobody. Let alone 'done more with less'. I am sure you somehow now think that Stokely and Wayne are top tier recievers better than Jerry Rice because Manning is moving the ball around and scoring a ton with both of them. But when Brady does the same thing he is a genius QB who is working with absolute crap.

The simple fact is, football games are won and lost by teams. Pick any player at any position in the NFL as the best player at that position and it might be true. It doesn't mean their *team* is going to win consistently. But given the stats Manning has put up this year it is pretty hard to argue with the fact that he is at this moment the best QB in the NFL, and quite possibly having the best year by any QB, ever. We'll know in a few more weeks. But it is patently obvious that the defensive is the limiting factor for that Colts team. Manning has taken a couple of unknown WRs and turned them into studs. His offensive line is dependable and gives good pass protection but they are not overpowering (ever watched Indy on 4th and inches? They get stopped a hell of a lot). There isn't a single QB playing in the NFL right now you could put in that offense who would put up numbers even close to what Manning has done, or carry that team to as many wins.

There's a reason he is getting paid so much freaking money - because people who judge football talent for a *living* realize he is the best QB out there and they want to keep him. I don't know why you hate the guy so much Devil, but I'm sure there is a good councilor in the yellow pages who can help you slywink Do you hate Marino too?
1392  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / Serenity (The Firefly Movie) delayed till Sept '05 on: November 27, 2004, 01:06:48 AM
Finally got time to finish watching the series on DVD last week. I hate FOX so much. Can't wait to see the movie though Tongue None of this has any relevance to the release date news. Thanks for readin.
1393  Gaming / Console / PC Gaming / STEAM stole my money!! >:( on: November 20, 2004, 03:42:56 PM
Alice, you really don't seem to be listening to anyone here. So, I am going to draw an analogy so maybe you can understand...

Let's say you go to Wal-Mart to buy Trivial Pursuit. Wal-Mart sells you a copy where the shrink-wrap was already broken, and the box had been opened. You got home and found out that the dice and some of the cards are missing.

Do you:
1) Blame the makers of Trivial Pursuit for Wal-Mart opening the box?
2) Blame Wal-Mart for selling you a game that had been opened such that someone could steal the dice and cards.

Right now, you are blaming Valve for something over which they have absolutely NO control. That's the same as blaming Trivial Pursuit in the above example. Now ten different people have told you how to fix your problem: go and speak to the District Manager for EB. You can likely do this over the phone, so you don't even need to drive anywhere. It would take you TEN minutes.

Now, you can either fix the problem, or you can sit here and whine about it. You've already spent more time whining than it would have taken to fix it in the first place. So how about you try calling and dealing with the problem?
1394  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / My Personal Pat on: November 16, 2004, 01:11:22 AM
Quote from: "Ypmur"
Often happens to me when I'm at a counter being serviced by a clerk.

Err, they are servicing you and still can't tell? What is the going rate for clerks these days anyway? And does it vary from store to store?
1395  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / My Personal Pat on: November 15, 2004, 10:52:11 PM
There is a pat at the Publix down the road from me. Black guy/chick who wears his/her hair in this funky pull-back-do that could go either way. Wearing the gender-neutral Publix stuff and has some funky name I can't remember off the top of my head but that also doesn't give it away. Funny stuff.
1396  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / [NFL] Time for the yearly Viking collapse on: November 15, 2004, 02:49:57 AM
I'd be more impressed if it was bumped from a year ago though biggrin I wonder if someone will actually track this thread down in one year and bump it again and it still be true!
1397  Non-Gaming / Trading Forum / Looking for Medieval Total War (Traded!) on: November 15, 2004, 02:47:23 AM
You have a pm.
1398  Non-Gaming / Trading Forum / The GT Pay It Foward Freebies Thread *closing end of 2005* on: November 11, 2004, 12:28:25 PM
Fafhrd, does the Gold Upgrade for Operation Flashpoint allow you to play coop online with the GOTY edition people?
1399  Non-Gaming / Off-Topic / [p] Ashcroft Resigns on: November 10, 2004, 02:23:17 AM
I have to say my respect for this administration will increase dramatically if they do appoint someone moderate to this position. It'll increase even more if Bush actually does reach out to the 48% of the population who hate his guts biggrin
1400  Non-Gaming / Trading Forum / The Official GT Trader Feedback List (updated 7/30) on: November 08, 2004, 05:27:21 PM
+1 to noun too for Raven Shield.
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