Hello I'm msduncan and I have a Pokemon problem.

[msduncan]

It started as a casual hobby because my kids were playing. Now I can't get enough Pokemon. I beat Pokemon White and have gathered several of the legendary Pokemon that you can get after the Elite 4 and the end bosses. I then picked up a used copy of Pokemon Diamond on a whim and am close to beating that one.

I went to the Pokemon site and started to try to get my hands around all the different things you can do in the game that are not readily apparent when you just play though. The Shiny versions of Pokemon that are very rare. The types that are available in previous games but not Pokemon White. The multiplayer battles. There are even clans for competitive play apparently.

Anyway, I think I might have a Pokemon problem. Are there any other addicts out there? I'll probably cross post this on GT due to their console focus.

[Teggy]

Paging Wonderpug...

[wonderpug]

I do like the Pokemons. 

duncan, if you want to learn more about the complex side of the game mechanics, serebii.net is the place to go.  Be warned.  That rabbit hole goes very deep.  I actually had to force myself to step away from the math equations and play more casually because I was starting to go overboard with min/maxxing just for min/maxxing's sake. 

For example, this makes perfect sense to me:


Just look at how important it is to breed for high IVs and to ensure you don't screw up your EV training!

[Harkonis]

I think there is help available for the two of you, we just need an intervention

[Devil]

I got into it a little bit when my daughter started playing. She got White and I got Black to play along with her.

It is pretty addicting, but not addicting enough for me to get past more than 4 gym leaders! 

[msduncan]

I do like the Pokemons. 

duncan, if you want to learn more about the complex side of the game mechanics, serebii.net is the place to go.  Be warned.  That rabbit hole goes very deep.  I actually had to force myself to step away from the math equations and play more casually because I was starting to go overboard with min/maxxing just for min/maxxing's sake. 

For example, this makes perfect sense to me:


Just look at how important it is to breed for high IVs and to ensure you don't screw up your EV training!

Holy crap I think my head just exploded.   I haven't even explored breeding.   Should I also assume the following:

-- people trade for breeding based on whatever that IV is?
-- there is some way to look at whatever IV is on each pokemon?

Is there a reason to purchase previous versions of Pokemon?    I'm playing White and I own Diamond and am playing it some as well.   I kinda got Diamond because I wanted to get to the end of the game and get the Legendaries.

I'm aware of the Shiney Pokemon, but have yet to see one after many many hours of play.    If I did encounter one, it was before I realized what they were and thus it sailed past me without recognition.

What else should I be aware of?   Seribii is a bit overwhelming.   Just point me to things I need to research so I can narrow down the list.

[wonderpug]

Holy crap I think my head just exploded.   I haven't even explored breeding.   Should I also assume the following:

-- people trade for breeding based on whatever that IV is?

I think most people only trade just to get pokemon breeds they don't have, or for shiny ones or whatever.  Breeding is done in the privacy of your own cartridge if you want to have a pokemon with certain out-of-the-ordinary abilities and/or one with really high stats, or if you want to breed in-demand ones for trading purposes (like version-exclusive ones or the ones that are given at the start of a game).

A good Ditto pokemon is very useful for animal rights abuse extensive breeding, because it can breed with any other species (and some pokemon can only breed with Ditto).

-- there is some way to look at whatever IV is on each pokemon?

In the Battle Subway there's a man who'll give you a vague sense if your pokemon's IVs are high or low ("this pokemon seems average/above average/has outstanding potential"), but for specifics you can use an IV calculator to calculate it based on game mechanics magic. 

Is there a reason to purchase previous versions of Pokemon?    I'm playing White and I own Diamond and am playing it some as well.   I kinda got Diamond because I wanted to get to the end of the game and get the Legendaries.

They all follow the same game formula with minor tweaks.  Play the old ones if you want to see the story or see/capture new pokemon types.  Each game and sub-version has different types that will be easy/hard/impossible to find.

I'm aware of the Shiney Pokemon, but have yet to see one after many many hours of play.    If I did encounter one, it was before I realized what they were and thus it sailed past me without recognition.

They're crazy rare.  If you find one, it's not a bad time to break out your master ball if you've saved it, since people will pay actual cash monies for them.

What else should I be aware of?   Seribii is a bit overwhelming.   Just point me to things I need to research so I can narrow down the list.

In each game, you can totally ignore all the complicated stuff and just do whatever you like up to the ending.  In fact, many of the advanced options don't even really open up until you've beaten the game.  Choose pokemon based on which ones you think look cool, build your team based on whatever whimsy you fancy.  If at the end you want to create an ultimate pokemon or ultimate team for whatever reason, I can walk you through whichever thing you're trying to do (even though my therapist said I need to avoid pokemon statistics for 3 more years).

I guess my only caution for your storyline playthroughs is to be cautious about giving your pokemon TM abilities in the older games, since they're one-use-only for games prior to Black/White.

[msduncan]

Several bits of good news based on your reply above:

1.  I haven't used the master ball.   Saved it.    Also saved it in Diamond too so far, and I'm close to the end of that one too.
2.  I have beaten White and am close to beating Diamond. So I guess I'm ready for the more advanced stuff.

Couple more questions:

1.  I hear that you can increase your chance for a shiney by breeding a Japanese Pokemon to a North American one.    Although the chances are still 1-1000 something.   Is this factual?
2.  Clearly the Legendaries aren't breedable, so I'm guessing there isn't a lot of use out of going back and catching them in previous versions?     I mean the shiney pokemon are a lot more rare than the legendaries since the legendaries are a sure-catch and not random, correct?
3.  Is there a faster way to level up low level pokemon?   They go fast in early levels but man do they turn into a grind after a while after you've beaten most of the trainers around the different areas.    Surely there is a faster way than walking around in grass and fighting while your low level holds the Exp. Share?   Are there trainers that recycle after you've fought them to gain larger chunks of XP for a fight?

[Misguided]

I can only imagine how you would react if they brought the Pokemon + Nobunaga game to the states....

[Teggy]

I found this video Wonderpug posted to YouTube

[wonderpug]

1.  I hear that you can increase your chance for a shiney by breeding a Japanese Pokemon to a North American one.    Although the chances are still 1-1000 something.   Is this factual?

It does seem to be true.  More information here.  I personally  think it's a journey of tears and sorrow to go after specific shinys, but pursuing them intentionally is certainly a thing people do.

2.  Clearly the Legendaries aren't breedable, so I'm guessing there isn't a lot of use out of going back and catching them in previous versions?     I mean the shiney pokemon are a lot more rare than the legendaries since the legendaries are a sure-catch and not random, correct?

The purpose of going back and catching them is pretty much just if you decide you want to have one.   Most people will only trade a legendary for another legendary, so if you gotta catch 'em all™ then doing it yourself is kind of the only way to get them.  I think shinys are indeed more rare, but it depends a lot on the breed.  A shiny bidoof or patrat isn't going to be as rare as a shiny Oshawott or Tepig, since every single player sees so many more of the former in each playthrough.

3.  Is there a faster way to level up low level pokemon?   They go fast in early levels but man do they turn into a grind after a while after you've beaten most of the trainers around the different areas.    Surely there is a faster way than walking around in grass and fighting while your low level holds the Exp. Share?   Are there trainers that recycle after you've fought them to gain larger chunks of XP for a fight?

If I remember right, trainers in the normal world never recycle, but I think you can re-fight them in the Battle Subway or by re-fighting the Final Four or something?  Memory hazy there.

Also hazy memory, but I think in addition to Exp Share, pokemon get a bigger share of the XP pie if they were deployed in a fight.  Have your low level guy start the fight and swap him out on the first turn, and he'll get more than if he was just in his ball the whole time.  There's also some form of nursery in each game, where you can drop them off to gain XP for each step you take elsewhere.  Oh, and I think they level up faster if you've traded for them, i.e., you aren't the original owner (you can't trade and trade back for the bonus).

[wonderpug]

Oh, one thing about trading, the online worldwide trade thingamadoo is a great way to build your collection, but I think you can only obtain pokemon that you've encountered at some point in your game.  Trading with someone and trading back is one of the easiest ways to get them "seen", but you obviously have to trust each other.

But caution: there are game exploits for duplicating pokemon, and rumor has it that having a duped pokemon in your cartridge will increase your odds of having some horrible fatal system crash that will wipe all your data.  That very well may be no more than a scary campfire story, but it may be worth looking into if someone gives you a too good to be true trade and your rare new pokemon is level 100 with perfect stats.

[EddieA]

I can only imagine how you would react if they brought the Pokemon + Nobunaga game to the states....

I guess we'll find out soon.

[msduncan]

Ok so I'm at the final Gym before Victory Road in Pokemon Diamond.    I can then either go back to Pokemon White post-final  boss, play post-Elite 4 on Diamond, buy a used DS and find Pokemon Emerald, or even buy Pokemon SoulSilver to play.

And there's Mystery Dungeon too, but I'm unsure of how much I'd like it.    Do you collect Pokemon in that game too?   If so, can you transfer them to your other Pokemon games?

[msduncan]

Wonderpug?   Inquiring minds want to know! 

[Purge]

Ms. Duncan, we have a room booked for your Electro-Pokemon treatment.

Pika - Pika!

[CeeKay]

Wonderpug?   Inquiring minds want to know! 

he's busy breeding a squirtle.  or at PAX East.

possibly both.

[wonderpug]

There's a "squirtle squad" of 4 squirtle cosplayers running about here... But yeah, busy with PAX East this weekend and fighting with 70,000 other geeks over wifi and AT&T internet...

I'll try to feed your addiction next time I'm in a long line.

[wonderpug]

Ok so I'm at the final Gym before Victory Road in Pokemon Diamond.    I can then either go back to Pokemon White post-final  boss, play post-Elite 4 on Diamond, buy a used DS and find Pokemon Emerald, or even buy Pokemon SoulSilver to play.

My god.   Well, if you really want to go hog wild, here's what you do.  For each game, start a new character, play quickly until you unlock the transfer station or whatever, then trade that starter pokemon to another DS.  Do that 3 times for each game (well, I guess just twice more for the ones you've already played) so you can get all three starters for each game iteration. 

Then, you can kind of jump between all the games if your goal is to catch everyone.  Choose your "master" cartridge and keep sending one of each pokemon to that one.  Or actually, strike that, you sound like you're guaranteed to purchase Black/White 2 later this year, so just keep collecting on each individual cartridge and plan to transfer everyone then.  I think that serebii site lists which pokemon are easy/hard/impossible to find in each series, so you can focus on getting them whereever they're easiest to get. 

It's really your choice where to go next.  If you've never done any of the post-game stuff and want to try it, you probably want to do that on White since it probably has the most improvements.  Each iteration has it's own post-game activities and ways to catch more guys, so it's also possible you'll enjoy earlier versions even more.  Or, if you want more of the 'humble village to grand champion' storyline experience, definitely grab that used DS and play Emerald and/or SoulSilver.  I'd recommend Emerald first, just because it has more iconic pokemon and it's fun to see how it all started.

And there's Mystery Dungeon too, but I'm unsure of how much I'd like it.    Do you collect Pokemon in that game too?   If so, can you transfer them to your other Pokemon games?

That series is totally different.  I haven't played one myself, but they're roguelikes, like an easier version of Shiren: The Wanderer.  I haven't actually played one, but I think you actually play as the pokemon, trying to rescue others.  I'm not sure if there's a collection aspect.  I'm also not sure if there are any ways to tie those games to the regular series, but there's yet another spinoff game, Pokemon Ranger, which somehow lets you import somethingorother.  (I haven't played that one either.)

[msduncan]

Thanks for the tips!   Diamond Elite 4 are currently kicking my @ss.   In backing up and strengthening my Pokemon for this battle, I went and picked up a Gible and started leveling him towards becoming a Garchomp.   I have also learned that Quagsire can be incredibly frustrating and has the ability to drain all of my PP while I try to beat him.   He doesn't really do much damage but man does he have staying power.

[msduncan]

Ok I guess I have it bad now.   I spent the weekend leveling up a Garchomp to 49.  I then noticed on a site that the best temperament for Garchomp is Jolly.  So I spent a good amount of time in Wayward cave running back and forth catching all the Gibles I could.   I'd then run back to town to check their temperaments in my PC and release them.  Haven't found a jolly yet, but found an Adament.    There seems to be a big debate online about whether Jolly or Adament is best.

[wonderpug]

I still haven't figured out if I should be helping enable you, but...

If you've gotten to the point where you care about getting specific temperaments, what you may want to do is to build an army of Ditto breeding machines, one for each temperament, and preferably Dittos with at least decent stats.  I don't remember the specific rules of breeding, but there's some way to then breed them with other species to get pokemon of that species with the temperament you want.

If you want to take it up yet another frightening notch, you may want to look into the Hidden Power ability.  Each pokemon can learn a Hidden Power which will be an attack type determined by some weird formula based on their stats.  Since the Hidden Power has no necessary ties to the usual attack types for that pokemon, you can try to make it so a pokemon's Hidden Power attack specifically addresses their biggest weakness, e.g., make it so they have an attack type that's targetted at the pokemon types that your pokemon is normally useless against.

[msduncan]

The biggest obstacle that I have yet to determine how to overcome is the time it takes to level up a pokemon.   I spent all weekend on that Garchomp only to realize that he didn't have the personality that I should be looking for.   So I'm hunting Jolly's now -- but then after that I'll have to go through the process of leveling him up.

Here is the process i use to level them:

1.  Give the Ex Share to Gible
2.  Make Gible the first party member
3.  Switch Gible out real fast and battle with my other Pokemon.

The problem is that even with this process, it takes a LONG time to level a single pokemon.    I've been repeatedly battling the Elite 4 (haven't beaten them yet to finish the game).   Usually the 4th guy knocks me out and I start the process again.

[wonderpug]

Where are you doing your fighting?  I think you want to be powerlevelling along victory road.

[msduncan]

I have also read  that I neeed to get a lucky egg and let the Gible/Garchomp hold it.

[msduncan]

Trying to catch that darned Jolly Gible still.    Go earn money.   Buy 25 pokeballs.   Go to Wayward cave.   Farm about 6 of them.   Go back to town and check their natures.    Release them all because I have no Jolly Gimble.   

Rinse repeat.

[msduncan]

Day 3 or 4 of trying to get the Jolly Gible.    Sheesh....   This thing is rare.   I catch about 6 or so at a time and then go back to check them.    Then I buy more balls and go back again.    Hasn't turned up yet!

[wonderpug]

Stock up on those Dittos and breed your own!  Baby pokemon have a 50% chance of inheriting their mother's nature.

[msduncan]

Ok.... I tried asking this on the Serebii forums, but even after rephrasing my question several times I still didn't get a reply that made it clearer for me.

First of all:  I caught a Jolly Garchomp!

Now on to my question:

I was comparing the base stats for Gibles of different natures, and even though everyone online says the Jolly Garchomp is the fastest the base stats of other Gible natures are sometimes showing a bigger number for Speed and Attack speed than the Jolly at level 15.     What gives??

The answer I was given on Serebii was 'EVs dude' and that was about it.    I understand training EVs has an effect, but I can't get my mind around why Jolly is considered the best nature for the Garchomp when I'm clearly seeing some of the IV values for speed and attack speed being higher on non-Jolly Gibles?

Can you help clear this up Wonderpug?

[Teggy]

OK, when's the intervention?

[wonderpug]

It's possible that you found a jolly Garchomp whose IV for speed is so low that he's slower than an average Garchomp even with the jolly nature.  Can you post his stats I can help you look up his IVs to check.

Is there any chance your jolly Garchomp is female?

[Teggy]

I have a new sig.

[Purge]

Trying to catch that darned Jolly Gible still.    Go earn money.   Buy 25 pokeballs.   Go to Wayward cave.   Farm about 6 of them.   Go back to town and check their natures.    Release them all because I have no Jolly Gimble.   

Rinse repeat.

I see words, and they look like English. What language *IS* it? It looks ... Nintendonian.

[msduncan]

It's possible that you found a jolly Garchomp whose IV for speed is so low that he's slower than an average Garchomp even with the jolly nature.  Can you post his stats I can help you look up his IVs to check.

Is there any chance your jolly Garchomp is female?

Actually I misspoke.   What I caught was a level 16 Jolly Gible.    This of course grows into a Jolly Garchomp for the uneducated like Teggy.   

Let me grab the stats:

16 Level
45 HP
28 ATTACK
24 Defense
19 SP Attack
19 SP Defense
22 Speed

[msduncan]

Oh...and it is a male.   

[wonderpug]

Here are his possible IV values (31 is the best):

• HP: 3-8
• attack: 4-9
• defense: 29-31
• special attack: 27-31
• spec defense: 0-3
• speed: 10-15

The jolly nature is reducing his special attack, but he happens to have innately awesome spec. attack.  The jolly nature is boosting his speed, but he has below average innate speed.  I think at the point he's at, they kind of cancel each other out (but I'm not really sure).

His super shitty HP, attack, and spec. defense might be even more of a dealbreaker, though.  Do you know what kind of powers you want him to be equipped with?

[msduncan]

Wait a sec....  ok.    I think I see the root of my confusion.  I was under the impression that the NATURE determined the values.     But what I'm hearing from you is that even among two animials of the same Nature, you have varying values.

So there is still a random element to each value you get, thus some Jolly versions might well suck as well?

In that case I need something that gives me a guide or something on what values are considered good or not.  When I catch a Gible or something else it's daunting trying to figure out what would be considered a good value.

[CeeKay]

OK, when's the intervention?

you hold him down, I'll get the pillow.

[Purge]

OK, when's the intervention?

you hold him down, I'll get the pillow.

Seems you've taken to country life pretty quick.

[wonderpug]

Wait a sec....  ok.    I think I see the root of my confusion.  I was under the impression that the NATURE determined the values.     But what I'm hearing from you is that even among two animials of the same Nature, you have varying values.

So there is still a random element to each value you get, thus some Jolly versions might well suck as well?

In that case I need something that gives me a guide or something on what values are considered good or not.  When I catch a Gible or something else it's daunting trying to figure out what would be considered a good value.

The gear station guy has a decent breakdown of what's good, IV-wise, for overall and individual totals:

In this generation, a man who checks the Pokémon's IVs appears in Gear Station.
(The first statement) If the IV total is between 0 and 90: "This Pokémon's potential is decent all around." If the IV total is between 91 and 120: "This Pokémon's potential is above average overall." If the IV total is between 121 and 150: "This Pokémon has relatively superior potential overall." If the IV total is between 151 and 186: "This Pokémon has outstanding potential overall."
(The second statement) If the highest IV is between 0 and 15: "It's rather decent in that regard." If the highest IV is between 16 and 25: "It's very good in that regard." If the highest IV is between 26 and 30:"It's fantastic in that regard." If the highest IV is 31: "It can't be better in that regard."

But depending on your pokemon, you can have stats you don't care about.  If you only have special attacks, for example, you might not care at all that your regular attack stat sucks.

• Think of IVs as your initial stats roll for a D&D character or whatever. 
• Each pokemon species also has its own racial modifiers, if you will, to which stats end up higher or lower
• Natures are like a trait that improves one stat and decreases another
• As you level up, your stats improve depending on your species and on the types of enemies you fought that level.  This is what the EVs are, and they make a big difference.