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Author Topic: Zimmerman / Martin Thread?  (Read 3402 times)
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hepcat
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« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2013, 12:59:02 AM »

It was a tragic incident in which no one was wrong but no one was right either.

Although that probably means little to those who want to believe Obama hates white people.
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« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2013, 01:01:59 AM »

Quote from: ATB on July 15, 2013, 12:09:29 AM

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That's the way to honor Trayvon Martin.
-Obama
Why are we honoring Trayvon Martin?

Because he was an innocent kid who died under tragic circumstances?
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« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2013, 12:34:13 PM »

Quote from: Lee on July 15, 2013, 12:17:06 AM

Quote from: ATB on July 15, 2013, 12:09:29 AM

Quote
That's the way to honor Trayvon Martin.
-Obama

Why are we honoring Trayvon Martin?



Because we should honor the dead?

I think this whole thing is a media joke, but in the end the kid died because he went for a walk, he wasn't some thug that had it coming.

I think the fact that he jumped on top of Zimmerman after punching him and then slammed Zimmerman's head into the ground might have contributed just a LITTLE bit. If that makes him a thug or not is your call.
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« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2013, 01:32:17 PM »

However, a teenager when confronted by an adult demanding to know what he's doing walking around his own neighborhood might result in a whupping being tossed the adult's way by any number of non-criminal teens...especially when that adult then goes for a gun.  

I have some serious doubts that Zimmerman confronted Martin in a non-threatening manner.  I also have some serious doubts that Zimmerman was ever in any more danger than getting his ass kicked.  To me, it sounds like both participants were practicing their Stand Your Ground rights...but only one had a gun...and the will (some would probably say the lack thereof) to use it.   
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« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2013, 02:05:47 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 01:32:17 PM

 To me, it sounds like both participants were practicing their Stand Your Ground rights...but only one had a gun...and the will (some would probably say the lack thereof) to use it.   


This is it for me in a nut shell. Anyone who thinks that Martin was "innocent" in this is either fooling themselves or they are only looking at one side of the case. If you followed the trial at all then it's hard to deny that at one point Zimmerman was on the ground with Martin on top of him (Which if Zimmerman did not have a gun would give Martin the upper hand). How things got to that point is the fuzzy part.
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« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2013, 02:16:09 PM »

Another problem is that some reports indicate that Zimmerman's wounds were very minor and could have resulted from one punch that knocked him over.  That's what gives me doubts as to Zimmerman's story.  If a guy confronts me in the night in MY neighborhood and he has a gun, I'd like to think that if I was able to get the drop on him and knock his ass down, I'd try to get that gun away from him by pinning him down lest he draw it and shoot me in the back when I tried to run away.

Although the reality is that I'd probably turn tail and run the moment someone said "hi" to me in the dark.
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« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2013, 02:56:52 PM »

Quote from: Scraper on July 15, 2013, 02:05:47 PM

Anyone who thinks that Martin was "innocent" in this is either fooling themselves or they are only looking at one side of the case.

Martin was being stalked and accosted by a self-appointed vigilante. He got angry (rightly) and defend himself (regrettably) from Zimmerman's completely uncalled for behavior towards him. I don't see any way you can blame Martin for this. He was the one targeted by Zimmerman. Had Zimmerman not been the sort of loser who drives around his neighborhood with a gun looking for "them", Martin would be alive today.
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« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2013, 03:03:06 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 01:32:17 PM

However, a teenager when confronted by an adult demanding to know what he's doing walking around his own neighborhood might result in a whupping being tossed the adult's way by any number of non-criminal teens...especially when that adult then goes for a gun.  

I have some serious doubts that Zimmerman confronted Martin in a non-threatening manner.  I also have some serious doubts that Zimmerman was ever in any more danger than getting his ass kicked.  To me, it sounds like both participants were practicing their Stand Your Ground rights...but only one had a gun...and the will (some would probably say the lack thereof) to use it.   

Except he wasn't in his own neighborhood. 

Zimmerman as a community watch leader saw someone he didn't recognize and reported it. He did his job.

What happened after is another story, but as none of us where actually there to see what happened, it's not even worth speculating. He had his trial, the jury was able to look past all the race baiting, put their emotions aside, and ended up finding him not guilty.

Time to move on.
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« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2013, 03:04:59 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 02:16:09 PM

Although the reality is that I'd probably turn tail and run the moment someone said "hi" to me in the dark.

or even in a lit hallway.
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« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2013, 03:19:32 PM »

I think it's safe to assume a lit hallway too, yes.
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« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2013, 03:20:58 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on July 15, 2013, 03:03:06 PM

Except he wasn't in his own neighborhood. 

You need to get your facts straight.
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« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2013, 03:41:34 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on July 15, 2013, 03:03:06 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 01:32:17 PM

However, a teenager when confronted by an adult demanding to know what he's doing walking around his own neighborhood might result in a whupping being tossed the adult's way by any number of non-criminal teens...especially when that adult then goes for a gun.  

I have some serious doubts that Zimmerman confronted Martin in a non-threatening manner.  I also have some serious doubts that Zimmerman was ever in any more danger than getting his ass kicked.  To me, it sounds like both participants were practicing their Stand Your Ground rights...but only one had a gun...and the will (some would probably say the lack thereof) to use it.   

Except he wasn't in his own neighborhood. 

Zimmerman as a community watch leader saw someone he didn't recognize and reported it. He did his job.

And then he decided to be a vigilante and stalked and confronted a teenager who was no threat to anyone, which if he hadn't done Martin would be alive.

If he had just called in to the police and let the professionals handle the situation, everything would have been fine. He made a conscious decision to escalate this situation by stalking and confronting Martin. I'm not saying that makes him guilty of murder, or even manslaughter, but it does, to me, mean that preponderance of responsibility for what transpired because of the confrontation he chose to create falls on him, not the young man he targeted.
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« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2013, 06:38:54 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 03:20:58 PM

Quote from: corruptrelic on July 15, 2013, 03:03:06 PM

Except he wasn't in his own neighborhood. 

You need to get your facts straight.

Maybe you do...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-fast-facts

One of his fathers lady friends lived in the The Retreat at Twin Lakes, Trayvon was staying with his father who lived somewhere else in Sanford wile on a 10 day suspension from school in Miami..... So no he didn't live there.... Bottom line is Tray liked to fight and decided to mix it up with someone who was concerned about a rash of burglaries in his neighborhood and ended up dead. Like I said before, under the current LAW Zimm should have never been charged, waste of taxpayer dollars.... Don't like the laws, petition your reps to change them.
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« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2013, 06:42:45 PM »

Quote
One of his fathers lady friends lived in the The Retreat at Twin Lakes, Trayvon was staying with his father who lived somewhere else in Sanford.

Nope.

Quote
17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a Neighborhood Watch captain inside his own gated Orlando, Florida community where he was living with his father, stepmother and little brother, according to the family's lawyer.


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« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2013, 06:43:47 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on July 15, 2013, 03:41:34 PM


And then he decided to be a vigilante and stalked and confronted a teenager who was no threat to anyone, which if he hadn't done Martin would be alive.

If he had just called in to the police and let the professionals handle the situation, everything would have been fine. He made a conscious decision to escalate this situation by stalking and confronting Martin. I'm not saying that makes him guilty of murder, or even manslaughter, but it does, to me, mean that preponderance of responsibility for what transpired because of the confrontation he chose to create falls on him, not the young man he targeted.

Thats funny... He was looking out for his community that had been burglarized quite a few times. Maybe Trayvon should have said sure lets wait for the police instead of clocking him.  
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« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2013, 06:47:55 PM »

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:43:47 PM

Thats funny... He was looking out for his community that had been burglarized quite a few times. Maybe Trayvon should have said sure lets wait for the police instead of clocking him.  

What reason would Trayvon have to think that the creepy guy who just got out of his car to confront him after stalking him through the neighborhood had called the police already?
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« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2013, 06:48:33 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 06:42:45 PM

Quote
17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a Neighborhood Watch captain inside his own gated Orlando, Florida community where he was living with his father, stepmother and little brother, according to the family's lawyer.


Fiancee at the time, so no not stepmother and he was not known there as he did not live there. Not saying he had no buisness being there at all, but he messed with the bull and got the horns... Even though they weren't allowed to present it in the trial, Trayvons texts were evidence of him liking to fight.
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« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2013, 06:49:52 PM »

So in your version of events, Zimmerman approached Martin while wearing a monocle and said, "Dear man, would you ever be so kind as to justify your presence in this neighborhood whilst I pour us a cup of Earl Grey?"

To me it's more likely that a man most considered a puffed up wannabe cop confronted Martin in an aggressive manner, flashed his gun and was getting his ass kicked before he decided to win the fight by killing the kid.  As I noted earlier, there's testimony that Zimmerman's wounds were far from as bad as some folks would like you to believe.
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« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2013, 06:50:48 PM »

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:43:47 PM

Thats funny... He was looking out for his community that had been burglarized quite a few times.

He could have "looked out for his community" just as well by simply not confronting the kid.  Y'know, like the 911 operator requested that he do.

I'd love to know what good Zimmerman thought confronting him was going to do.  What would possibly be a positive outcome of that encounter?
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« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2013, 06:55:01 PM »

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:48:33 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 06:42:45 PM

Quote
17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a Neighborhood Watch captain inside his own gated Orlando, Florida community where he was living with his father, stepmother and little brother, according to the family's lawyer.


Fiancee at the time, so no not stepmother and he was not known there as he did not live there. Not saying he had no buisness being there at all, but he messed with the bull and got the horns... Even though they weren't allowed to present it in the trial, Trayvons texts were evidence of him liking to fight.

Martin had been there numerous times according to most reports.  But the real issue I was responding to was the "one of his many lady friends" line.
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« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2013, 07:01:22 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 15, 2013, 06:50:48 PM

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:43:47 PM

Thats funny... He was looking out for his community that had been burglarized quite a few times.

He could have "looked out for his community" just as well by simply not confronting the kid.  Y'know, like the 911 operator requested that he do.

I'd love to know what good Zimmerman thought confronting him was going to do.  What would possibly be a positive outcome of that encounter?

I'd assume he was tired of the criminals getting away by the time the cops arrive, not saying Trayvon was responsible but he decided to fight and lost his life in doing so and Zimm had Florida law on his side.
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« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2013, 07:03:50 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 06:55:01 PM

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:48:33 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 06:42:45 PM

Quote
17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by a Neighborhood Watch captain inside his own gated Orlando, Florida community where he was living with his father, stepmother and little brother, according to the family's lawyer.


Fiancee at the time, so no not stepmother and he was not known there as he did not live there. Not saying he had no buisness being there at all, but he messed with the bull and got the horns... Even though they weren't allowed to present it in the trial, Trayvons texts were evidence of him liking to fight.

Martin had been there numerous times according to most reports.  But the real issue I was responding to was the "one of his many lady friends" line.

No where did I say many.... Not that it matters if he had one or a hundred, fact is he was a visitor while on school suspension where he lived in Miami.
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« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2013, 07:08:04 PM »

The inference that most folks would probably get by the way you worded it was decidedly negative.  I won't go any further with what it sounded like to me, though.
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« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2013, 07:11:20 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 07:08:04 PM

The inference that most folks would probably get by the way you worded it was decidedly negative.  I won't go any further with what it sounded like to me, though.

Hey if you're single you can have as many as you like unlike us married folks who get a count of one unless you like trouble and paying divorce lawyers....
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« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2013, 07:24:19 PM »

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:38:54 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 03:20:58 PM

Quote from: corruptrelic on July 15, 2013, 03:03:06 PM

Except he wasn't in his own neighborhood.  

You need to get your facts straight.

Maybe you do...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-fast-facts

One of his fathers lady friends lived in the The Retreat at Twin Lakes-


By which you mean "fiancé."  That's the commonly accepted term for someone who has accepted a marriage proposal.

See, "one of his father's lady friends" is one of those dog whistle phrases that racists use to invoke racial stereotypes -- in this case, of a black man shacking up with one of several sexual partners -- while remaining technically correct enough that defenders can pretend they landed on a clumsy and racially-charged turn of phrase *totally* by accident.


Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:38:54 PM

Bottom line is Tray liked to fight-


Here, I think you meant to say "play football."  That's the closest thing on Trayvon Martin's record to "violence," though with the accurate term applied, it brings to mind terms like "teamwork" and "athleticism" and "character building."

Otherwise, "liked to fight" assumes facts not in evidence, as Trayvon had no police record and his school suspensions were for tardiness, graffiti, and possession of marijuana paraphernalia.  It also invokes -- accidentally, I'm sure -- another racial stereotype about black men being inherently violent.  


Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 06:38:54 PM

...and decided to mix it up with someone who was concerned about a rash of burglaries-


Er, source?  Either you've been withholding eyewitness testimony from the defense, Mystic95Z, or you've somehow repurposed the machine from Person of Interest to discern which of George Zimmerman's many Astonishing Tales of Personal Heroism is the correct one.

Please, for those of us who have trouble believing Zimmerman's very fanciful tales of labyrinthine streets, vanishing bushes, and talking dead kids, won't you explain which of his accounts is the *true* truth?


EDIT:

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 07:03:50 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 15, 2013, 06:55:01 PM

Martin had been there numerous times according to most reports.  But the real issue I was responding to was the "one of his many lady friends" line.


No where did I say many.... Not that it matters if he had one or a hundred, fact is he was a visitor while on school suspension where he lived in Miami.


Ah, I see this particular dog whistle has already reached the "Technically correct!" phrase.  If only I were a faster typist....

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Mystic95Z
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« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2013, 07:44:55 PM »

Should have allowed his text messages into evidence then huh Autistic... NSA thinks they are worth collecting from all of us. But anyhoo how about you start bitching and whining about black on black violence which is far more prevalent instead of trying to act like Tray had no culpability in this, but like I said search for zimmerman neighborhood burglaries... The defense had a slam dunk case and the jury agreed.
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« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 07:50:36 PM »

Well, that's one way to trivialize the situation.
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« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2013, 08:01:06 PM »

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 07:44:55 PM

Should have allowed his text messages into evidence then huh Autistic...


Texts?  No.  Witnesses?  Sure.

The first prerequisite for a fight is a second person.  Since there's no record of Trayvon Martin exercising his "Stand Your Ground" rights to pick a fight and then kill the other party for "being threatening," you'd think there'd be a long list of Trayvon's assault victims ready to testify about how much he liked to fight.

I wonder why the defense didn't introduce any such witnesses at trial.

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« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2013, 08:22:22 PM »

I'm thinking because the Judge wasn't making it any easier for the defense than it already was and said no, athough that would have been some good cause for an appeal if it had gone the other way. "Stand Your Ground" gives you no right to pick a fight and then kill someone, the prosecution failed to prove that on a grand scale. And don't be naive alot of juvenile scuffling goes unreported to authorities, yet his friend in text asked him "why you always fighting" after bragging about fighting.   
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« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2013, 08:28:59 PM »

There must be thousands dying on the playgrounds and in the parks of this country if all the fights teenagers get into are to the death.
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« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2013, 08:45:18 PM »

Didn't happen in a park or playground so yeah...
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« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2013, 08:50:25 PM »

Swoosh
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« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2013, 08:58:09 PM »

Oh I got it, its just like you exaggerate a bit much....
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« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2013, 09:00:39 PM »

It was more hyperbole than run of the mill exaggeration.   But the point was valid and still stands.
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« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2013, 09:01:03 PM »

What I find to be detestable is how the media is trying their hardest to stir the flames of racism over this story. Several stories I have read are calling Zimmerman "a white male" when in fact he is part hispanic and part white. I guess that makes Tiger Woods a "white male" also. Then I love how they've been stating the jury was six females, one black and five white. Why is that important? The press keeps adding small amounts of kindling to an explosive situation, and its regrettable because most people don't worry about looking at the facts. I've seen dozens of stories about the impact to Martin's immediate family and extended family. What about Zimmerman's family?  What about all the threats to his life? The sports stars saying "the hood will catch up to him...the jury should go commit suicide...", etc.

The bottom line is that the man was found innocent, and the jury had more information than we do. He should be allowed to live his life, without always having to look over his shoulder. Justice was served, and if people are unhappy with the outcome they should work peacefully to change the laws. One man is dead, and the other had his life forever changed for the worse. It is a tragedy from every angle. The only winners in this are the media, who love to stir the flames of racism to sell a few extra newspapers or increase their viewership.

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« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2013, 10:13:16 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on July 15, 2013, 08:01:06 PM

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 07:44:55 PM

Should have allowed his text messages into evidence then huh Autistic...


Texts?  No.  Witnesses?  Sure.

The first prerequisite for a fight is a second person.  Since there's no record of Trayvon Martin exercising his "Stand Your Ground" rights to pick a fight and then kill the other party for "being threatening," you'd think there'd be a long list of Trayvon's assault victims ready to testify about how much he liked to fight.

I wonder why the defense didn't introduce any such witnesses at trial.


Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 08:22:22 PM

I'm thinking because the Judge wasn't making it any easier for the defense than it already was and said no, athough that would have been some good cause for an appeal if it had gone the other way.


So your argument is that people who were physically assaulted by Trayvon Martin -- that you've made up -- were forbidden from testifying because the judge didn't want the defense to run up the score?

I'm going to go ahead and guess you haven't spent much time around members of the bar.  Or pre-law students.  Or fans of Dick Wolf. 


Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 08:22:22 PM

the prosecution failed to prove that on a grand scale. And don't be naive alot of juvenile scuffling goes unreported to authorities, yet his friend in text asked him "why you always fighting" after bragging about fighting.


I like how quickly we've gone from "loved to fight" to "juvenile scuffling." 


Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 08:22:22 PM

"Stand Your Ground" gives you no right to pick a fight and then kill someone


No?

Suppose you were walking home on a rainy night when I came up and demanded to know what your punk-ass thug self was up to?  When I didn't like your response, I shoved you down onto the ground and told you to stay put until the police arrived.  Then you got up and slugged me right in face, breaking my nose and causing me to bump my head once on the pavement. 

You tried to hold me down and started screaming for help so I, "fearing for my life," struggled out my concealed weapon, shot you in the heart, and made up a series of wildly implausible stories about how you relentlessly pummeled me and tried to grab my gun.

There are no witnesses.  I claim self defense.  Thanks to the "Stand Your Ground" law, the police clean me up and send me home with my gun that night without so much as a toxicology screening.

What do you suppose are the odds I'd get away with something like that?

-Autistic Angel
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2013, 10:23:34 PM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on July 15, 2013, 09:01:03 PM

What I find to be detestable is how the media is trying their hardest to stir the flames of racism over this story. Several stories I have read are calling Zimmerman "a white male" when in fact he is part hispanic and part white.

It's possible to be both.

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As of 2010, 50.5 million or 16.3% of Americans were ethnically Hispanic or Latino. Of those, 26.7 million, or 53%, were White.
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« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2013, 11:37:22 PM »

Some believe in the One Drop Rule, I guess.
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« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2013, 11:52:47 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on July 15, 2013, 10:13:16 PM

Quote from: Mystic95Z on July 15, 2013, 08:22:22 PM

"Stand Your Ground" gives you no right to pick a fight and then kill someone


No?

Suppose you were walking home on a rainy night when I came up and demanded to know what your punk-ass thug self was up to?  When I didn't like your response, I shoved you down onto the ground and told you to stay put until the police arrived.  Then you got up and slugged me right in face, breaking my nose and causing me to bump my head once on the pavement. 

You tried to hold me down and started screaming for help so I, "fearing for my life," struggled out my concealed weapon, shot you in the heart, and made up a series of wildly implausible stories about how you relentlessly pummeled me and tried to grab my gun.

There are no witnesses.  I claim self defense.  Thanks to the "Stand Your Ground" law, the police clean me up and send me home with my gun that night without so much as a toxicology screening.

What do you suppose are the odds I'd get away with something like that?

-Autistic Angel

Depends.  Which one of you is a black teenager?
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« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2013, 03:41:57 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on July 15, 2013, 10:23:34 PM

Quote from: Dante Rising on July 15, 2013, 09:01:03 PM

What I find to be detestable is how the media is trying their hardest to stir the flames of racism over this story. Several stories I have read are calling Zimmerman "a white male" when in fact he is part hispanic and part white.

It's possible to be both.

Quote
As of 2010, 50.5 million or 16.3% of Americans were ethnically Hispanic or Latino. Of those, 26.7 million, or 53%, were White.

Oh, I understand that perfectly. But just like African American, the usual term is white hispanic. I'm willing to go on a limb and say the media felt the story is better if the "hispanic" portion was left off.

I'm especially unhappy that the media seems hellbent to find out who the jurors were, despite their requests to remain anonymous based upon the hostility and threats directed at them. By all means, please add the jurors so we can publicly shame and torment them for doing your civic duty.

My favorite is Carol Ostello from CNN, where she asked why the jury wasn't three African Americans females and three white females.
or when she said that the jury members should go public, as "protests are going on all across the country and the jury-members they have a chance to kind of settle things down. Only they can answer questions as to why they found George Zimmerman not guilty. For instance did they think race did not factor in?"

What does she expect? A jury member to say "Yeah, he was obviously innocent because he wasn't black!" NOTHING a jury member will say can appease the emotional masses using Martin as a tool to grind their own axe. As I mentioned before, if the law is in need of change, then peacefully make that change. Instead of focusing on the law that allowed Zimmerman to be free, the media is focused on Zimmerman.


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