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Author Topic: WI democrats walk out of Senate  (Read 13074 times)
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hepcat
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« Reply #400 on: March 24, 2011, 04:27:26 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

hepcat, if you think it's just me you're in for a big surprise.

I don't want to beat this dead horse again too much, but unions have abused their power big time. Do you think those Dems that fled recently did so because they actually cared about the people? Shame on you if you did. No, it's quite obvious what was at stake for them...the loss of power, influence and money with this "attack" on the unions.

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.

The problem with this reply is that you included no actual facts to back up your opinions.  It's the equivalent of "nuh huh, you're just wrong!".   For example: you apparently have the power to read minds as you know for a fact that the dems who stormed off were doing so for any reason other than that you assigned them (and of course, your retort to that assertion will simply be "I'm right and you're wrong because I'm right!").  Try to actually include an informed basis for your opinions and you'll find yourself held at the level of esteem you so desperately and vocally desire.
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« Reply #401 on: March 24, 2011, 04:28:54 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

Quote from: gellar on March 24, 2011, 04:14:15 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

Same could be said about state or federal taxes really.  It's an imperfect solution: when you are working for the collective good, the collective needs to fully participate.  If they don't (as in, don't pay taxes or dues) then it becomes a logistical nightmare.

But as it stands today, "collective good" has lost it's definition

Same could be said for federal or state government.  It's all dependent on personal experience.
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« Reply #402 on: March 24, 2011, 04:31:16 PM »

two things:

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM



Tell you what.....I wouldn't be at all surprised that if my "anti-union" views fell upon the right (wrong?) ears, and my address was known, that i wouldn't receive a visit from a goon or two to "straighten" me out.


This does nothing to help you to be taken seriously.


Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.

Just expressing a belief and then saying it's fact isn't actually proving it to be true.
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« Reply #403 on: March 24, 2011, 04:35:33 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:27:26 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

hepcat, if you think it's just me you're in for a big surprise.

I don't want to beat this dead horse again too much, but unions have abused their power big time. Do you think those Dems that fled recently did so because they actually cared about the people? Shame on you if you did. No, it's quite obvious what was at stake for them...the loss of power, influence and money with this "attack" on the unions.

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.

The problem with this reply is that you included no actual facts to back up your opinions.  It's the equivalent of "nuh huh, you're just wrong!".   For example: you apparently have the power to read minds as you know for a fact that the dems who stormed off were doing so for any reason other than that you assigned them (and of course, your retort to that assertion will simply be "I'm right and you're wrong because I'm right!").  Try to actually include an informed basis for your opinions and you'll find yourself held at the level of esteem you so desperately and vocally desire.

Umm, first of all I don't desperately desire to be held to a high level of esteem  icon_confused I merely state my opinions, views, and beliefs just as anyone else does.

Second, of course there is not going to be a "factual link" anywhere out there showing proof that that's why the Dems reacted as they did. Why in the hell would they admit that? I'm a bit surprised that I needed to point this out to you, hepcat. But many have seen right through it, including me. When have you ever known any politician to act in such a manner merely over something supposdly for the people.

Are you seriously going to tell me that they acted this way out of scruples, integrity, or personal values?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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« Reply #404 on: March 24, 2011, 04:37:11 PM »

In other words, "i'm right and you're wrong because i'm right".
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 04:38:49 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #405 on: March 24, 2011, 04:41:39 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:31:16 PM

two things:

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM



Tell you what.....I wouldn't be at all surprised that if my "anti-union" views fell upon the right (wrong?) ears, and my address was known, that i wouldn't receive a visit from a goon or two to "straighten" me out.


This does nothing to help you to be taken seriously.


Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.

Just expressing a belief and then saying it's fact isn't actually proving it to be true.


Fine.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVMooreInfluence90906.html

https://dancingczars.wordpress.com/tag/strong-arm-union-tactics/

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/07/na-unions-seek-new-clout-with-strong-arm-tactics/news-opinion-editorials/


http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/union-in-collusion-with-washington.html

http://host.madison.com/mobile/article_d25a80f4-716f-11df-a556-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.realestateradiousa.com/tag/seiu-strong-arm-tactics/
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« Reply #406 on: March 24, 2011, 04:51:38 PM »

Are we talking about public-sector unions or private sector? Because I don't think you can generalize about both.

Union membership has fallen to about 11% nationally (in the private sector). In our socialist utopia of MA, it's barely over 14%. And those numbers have been falling steadily for decades.

I have no idea how many government workers are unionized. A whole lot more than 11%, I'd guess.
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hepcat
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« Reply #407 on: March 24, 2011, 04:52:39 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:41:39 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:31:16 PM

two things:

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM



Tell you what.....I wouldn't be at all surprised that if my "anti-union" views fell upon the right (wrong?) ears, and my address was known, that i wouldn't receive a visit from a goon or two to "straighten" me out.


This does nothing to help you to be taken seriously.


Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.

Just expressing a belief and then saying it's fact isn't actually proving it to be true.


Fine.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVMooreInfluence90906.html

https://dancingczars.wordpress.com/tag/strong-arm-union-tactics/

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/07/na-unions-seek-new-clout-with-strong-arm-tactics/news-opinion-editorials/


http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/union-in-collusion-with-washington.html

http://host.madison.com/mobile/article_d25a80f4-716f-11df-a556-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.realestateradiousa.com/tag/seiu-strong-arm-tactics/

I can post links to pro union sites and news that anti-union folks are bad people too!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703796504576168831129280772.html

http://www.workers.org/2009/us/efca_0521/

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-22/us/wisconsin.budget_1_website-unions-access?_s=PM:US

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/02/efca_factsheets.html

this proves nothing other than that we both know how to use google.  

My earlier posts were primarily meant to point out how most of your arguments are emotional and not based on any actual fact.   This still holds true.  No one is coming to beat you up for not liking unions, the entire country isn't suddenly against unions (the large protests in Wisconsin should have been your first clue) and every single politician who doesn't believe in the same things you do isn't doing so just because they're self serving liars seeking power.  you can't say with any shred of certainty that every one of those dems who walked out did so without a shred of altruism or a belief that they were serving their constituents in the only way they could at that time.  you believe that simply because they're one of the groups you vocally and frequently rail against:  democrats.
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« Reply #408 on: March 24, 2011, 05:00:39 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:52:39 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:41:39 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:31:16 PM

two things:

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM



Tell you what.....I wouldn't be at all surprised that if my "anti-union" views fell upon the right (wrong?) ears, and my address was known, that i wouldn't receive a visit from a goon or two to "straighten" me out.


This does nothing to help you to be taken seriously.


Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.

Just expressing a belief and then saying it's fact isn't actually proving it to be true.


Fine.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVMooreInfluence90906.html

https://dancingczars.wordpress.com/tag/strong-arm-union-tactics/

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/07/na-unions-seek-new-clout-with-strong-arm-tactics/news-opinion-editorials/


http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/union-in-collusion-with-washington.html

http://host.madison.com/mobile/article_d25a80f4-716f-11df-a556-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.realestateradiousa.com/tag/seiu-strong-arm-tactics/

I can post links to pro union sites and news that anti-union folks are bad people too!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703796504576168831129280772.html

http://www.workers.org/2009/us/efca_0521/

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-22/us/wisconsin.budget_1_website-unions-access?_s=PM:US

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/02/efca_factsheets.html

this proves nothing other than that we both know how to use google. 

LOL. your response is such a surprise  Roll Eyes

Ya, you're right..... unions are the pillar of American values, and how dare anyone question that.

This has moved into "dead horse" territory again.
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« Reply #409 on: March 24, 2011, 05:04:05 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 05:00:39 PM



This has moved into "dead horse" territory again.

if the words liberal, democrat or union comes up in a thread, you turn into the lead in Equus. 
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« Reply #410 on: March 24, 2011, 05:04:58 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 05:00:39 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:52:39 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:41:39 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 04:31:16 PM

two things:

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM



Tell you what.....I wouldn't be at all surprised that if my "anti-union" views fell upon the right (wrong?) ears, and my address was known, that i wouldn't receive a visit from a goon or two to "straighten" me out.


This does nothing to help you to be taken seriously.


Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.

Just expressing a belief and then saying it's fact isn't actually proving it to be true.


Fine.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/P21NVMooreInfluence90906.html

https://dancingczars.wordpress.com/tag/strong-arm-union-tactics/

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/nov/07/na-unions-seek-new-clout-with-strong-arm-tactics/news-opinion-editorials/


http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2009/05/union-in-collusion-with-washington.html

http://host.madison.com/mobile/article_d25a80f4-716f-11df-a556-001cc4c002e0.html

http://www.realestateradiousa.com/tag/seiu-strong-arm-tactics/

I can post links to pro union sites and news that anti-union folks are bad people too!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703796504576168831129280772.html

http://www.workers.org/2009/us/efca_0521/

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-22/us/wisconsin.budget_1_website-unions-access?_s=PM:US

http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/2009/02/efca_factsheets.html

this proves nothing other than that we both know how to use google. 

LOL. your response is such a surprise  Roll Eyes

Ya, you're right..... unions are the pillar of American values, and how dare anyone question that.

This has moved into "dead horse" territory again.

So what you're saying is that anyone that presents your own arguments against you is beating a dead horse. Got it.
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« Reply #411 on: March 24, 2011, 05:05:28 PM »

Quote
My earlier posts were primarily meant to point out how most of your arguments are emotional and not based on any actual fact.   This still holds true.  

Prove it with facts.

Quote
No one is coming to beat you up for not liking unions,

Prove it with facts.

Quote
the entire country isn't suddenly against unions

prove it with facts

Quote
every single politician who doesn't believe in the same things you do isn't doing so just because they're self serving liars seeking power.

hahahahaha sorry you missed that boat, hepcat. you know, the one where everyone else learned that most politicians are selfish liars.

Good luck in fantasy land.

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« Reply #412 on: March 24, 2011, 05:07:02 PM »

You've just given up at this point, haven't you?

sigh...and you wonder why I just goof on you usually.
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« Reply #413 on: March 24, 2011, 05:10:17 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 05:07:02 PM

You've just given up at this point, haven't you?

Here? Yes.

Give me one good reason I would, or should, continue with it?

The funny part is, even though my links aren't exactly "factual" (as it would be nigh impossible to find one given the subject matter) those of you that have responded so far didn't even read all of those links. You couldn't have, given the time span.

.
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« Reply #414 on: March 24, 2011, 05:11:01 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 05:10:17 PM



The funny part is, even though my links aren't exactly "factual" (as it would be nigh impossible to find one given the subject matter) those of you that have responded so far didn't even read all of those links. You couldn't have, given the time span.

.

some of us read at higher than a 3rd grade level.
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« Reply #415 on: March 24, 2011, 05:13:53 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 05:11:01 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 05:10:17 PM



The funny part is, even though my links aren't exactly "factual" (as it would be nigh impossible to find one given the subject matter) those of you that have responded so far didn't even read all of those links. You couldn't have, given the time span.

.

some of us read at higher than a 3rd grade level.


It wouldn't matter if I linked to statement by Obama himself admitting it. You would still find a way to dispel it.
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« Reply #416 on: March 24, 2011, 05:18:15 PM »

Ladies and Gentlemen, that's it for my foray into the Zeke Zone today.  I need to do something more meaningful with the rest of my day so I'm going to lay down on my back and look at a ceiling tile for a while.

I hope you all have a nice day.
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« Reply #417 on: March 24, 2011, 05:35:53 PM »

LOL

Those quick links I provided shows there a whole bunch of "zeke zones" out there for you to get lost in  icon_razz
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« Reply #418 on: March 24, 2011, 06:51:39 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM

Quote from: gellar on March 24, 2011, 04:14:15 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

Same could be said about state or federal taxes really.  It's an imperfect solution: when you are working for the collective good, the collective needs to fully participate.  If they don't (as in, don't pay taxes or dues) then it becomes a logistical nightmare.


That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.

Correct. It's based on schizoid paranoia.

Ale
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« Reply #419 on: March 24, 2011, 07:09:19 PM »

tell that to the owners and employees of W&K Steel

(read in order)

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_722920.html

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_723675.html

http://www.wksteel.com/learn_the_facts.asp

Quote
The unions over the years have failed in their attempt to unionize W&K Steel, LLC so they have redirected their efforts to a smear campaign attempting to harm the Company’s reputation.

They (union, and their Dem cohorts) decided to back off when this became public and they were exposed. EVERY SINGLE EMPLOYEE showed up at the supposed "sweatshop" hearing to prove that they were no sweatshop.
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« Reply #420 on: March 24, 2011, 08:59:58 PM »

Quote from: raydude on March 24, 2011, 04:01:07 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.

You mean like how the Wisconsin State Troopers union is so tied in with the Republican party because they supported Scott Walker and are thus exempt from his elimination of bargaining rights for state unions?

yeah I was going to call out his bullshit as well.  There's unions here in CA who donated money to Meg Whitman. A REPUBLICAN
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« Reply #421 on: March 24, 2011, 09:09:55 PM »

Quote from: naednek on March 24, 2011, 08:59:58 PM

Quote from: raydude on March 24, 2011, 04:01:07 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.

You mean like how the Wisconsin State Troopers union is so tied in with the Republican party because they supported Scott Walker and are thus exempt from his elimination of bargaining rights for state unions?

yeah I was going to call out his bullshit as well.  There's unions here in CA who donated money to Meg Whitman. A REPUBLICAN

Silly you.  She's not a REAL Republican.  She's a Dem in Rep clothing.  Duh.
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« Reply #422 on: March 24, 2011, 09:16:12 PM »

So I provide a factual link and example, but it's still bullshit.

ok then.
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« Reply #423 on: March 25, 2011, 12:17:41 AM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 04:10:34 PM

Quote
There are a significant number of states where membership is voluntary. If one is concerned with the funds, then taking an active role at union meetings and/or running for an officer slot are available options.

not being disrespectful, but there are hardly a 'significant' amount. and as far as trying to take an active role to be an officer in the hopes of implementing changes that might actually reduce the union's power and/or monies is a pipe dream. sounds great in theory, virtually impossible in reality.

Right to work Laws

Quote
Right-to-work laws are statutes enforced in twenty-two U.S. states, mostly in the southern or western U.S., allowed under provisions of the Taft-Hartley Act, which prohibit agreements between labor unions and employers making membership or payment of union dues or fees a condition of employment, either before or after hiring.
...
The following 22 states are right-to-work states:

    * Alabama
    * Arizona †
    * Arkansas †
    * Florida †
    * Georgia
    * Idaho
    * Iowa
    * Kansas
    * Louisiana
    * Mississippi †
    * Nebraska
    * Nevada
    * North Carolina
    * North Dakota
    * Oklahoma †
    * South Carolina
    * South Dakota
    * Tennessee
    * Texas
    * Utah
    * Virginia
    * Wyoming

In addition, the territory of Guam also has right-to-work laws.

† An employee's right-to-work is established under the state Constitution, not under legislative action.

I consider 44% of the states in the union to be significant.  Also, my comment was in regard to yours about taking active interests in where those funds go, not deliberately trying to reduce them.  And there's no need for an oversight committee when the information is made public.  If someone wants to make a difference in the union, the organizations are run in a republican-style governance.

Not all unions are the same.  They, like companies and governments, cover a wide variety of positions on the good/evil and law/chaos scale.  There is no overarching type of organization that is immune from the temptations of abuse of power.
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gellar
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« Reply #424 on: March 25, 2011, 12:33:55 AM »

1) 22 is clearly not a significant number.  Less than 50% won't even get you elected, buddy.

2) Have you never heard of the secret society of unions?  They are all governed by like, one guy.  He totally makes them the same.
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pr0ner
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« Reply #425 on: March 25, 2011, 02:29:37 AM »

I know I'm behind the times in the thread, but as to Zekester's idea of abolishing the shareholder market, I have three words:

Fuck that shit.
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Zekester
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« Reply #426 on: March 25, 2011, 04:45:39 AM »

Haha. Little different when it hits home, eh proner?
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XBL Schins67
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« Reply #427 on: March 25, 2011, 05:05:48 AM »

In other news:

Quote from: The Associated Press
INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — An Indiana prosecutor said one of his deputies resigned Thursday after admitting he sent an email to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker suggesting the Republican fake an attack on himself to discredit the public employee unions protesting his plan to strip them of nearly all collective bargaining rights.

Johnson County Prosecutor Brad Cooper said Carlos Lam resigned in a phone call about 5 a.m. Thursday after acknowledging that he sent the Feb. 19 email to Walker suggesting "the situation in WI presents a good opportunity for what's called a 'false flag' operation."

"If you could employ an associate who pretends to be sympathetic to the unions' cause to physically attack you (or even use a firearm against you), you could discredit the public unions," Lam wrote in the email, which was obtained by The Associated Press.


-Autistic Angel
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pr0ner
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« Reply #428 on: March 25, 2011, 05:36:26 AM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 25, 2011, 04:45:39 AM

Haha. Little different when it hits home, eh proner?

 icon_lol

Why don't you tell me why you think I made that comment, and I'll tell you if you're right or not.
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