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Author Topic: WI democrats walk out of Senate  (Read 13167 times)
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« Reply #360 on: March 23, 2011, 12:57:16 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 11:14:02 AM

It would need fine-tuned, for sure.

But I don't see many downsides to something like this.

So, if government shouldn't step in and define this progressive structure (and I think it shouldn't) then what organization can exert pressure on the CEO and Board of Directors to do anything but screw over the workers? Could that be...............unions?
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« Reply #361 on: March 23, 2011, 01:20:49 PM »

Quote from: raydude on March 23, 2011, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 11:14:02 AM

It would need fine-tuned, for sure.

But I don't see many downsides to something like this.

So, if government shouldn't step in and define this progressive structure (and I think it shouldn't) then what organization can exert pressure on the CEO and Board of Directors to do anything but screw over the workers? Could that be...............unions?

It used to be unions.

But now the unions themselves have been guilty of greed and abusing their power.

But why would you be against the progressive structure?
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« Reply #362 on: March 23, 2011, 02:01:25 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: raydude on March 23, 2011, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 11:14:02 AM

It would need fine-tuned, for sure.

But I don't see many downsides to something like this.

So, if government shouldn't step in and define this progressive structure (and I think it shouldn't) then what organization can exert pressure on the CEO and Board of Directors to do anything but screw over the workers? Could that be...............unions?

It used to be unions.

But now the unions themselves have been guilty of greed and abusing their power.

But why would you be against the progressive structure?

who's going to oversee the distribution of the profits?
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« Reply #363 on: March 23, 2011, 02:06:13 PM »

Profits would be made public?
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« Reply #364 on: March 23, 2011, 02:09:06 PM »

So the public would be in charge of overseeing this distribution of wealth?  Would you also say from each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)?
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« Reply #365 on: March 23, 2011, 02:22:20 PM »

No. With profits being public, everyone would know what they should be getting.

There wouldnt be much need for oversight.
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« Reply #366 on: March 23, 2011, 02:30:19 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 02:22:20 PM

No. With profits being public, everyone would know what they should be getting.

There wouldnt be much need for oversight.

That doesn't answer my question as to who dispenses the funds.  Or does everyone just reach into the pot on payday and is trusted to take out only what they've earned per your compensation formula?
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« Reply #367 on: March 23, 2011, 02:44:47 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 23, 2011, 02:30:19 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 02:22:20 PM

No. With profits being public, everyone would know what they should be getting.

There wouldnt be much need for oversight.

That doesn't answer my question as to who dispenses the funds.  Or does everyone just reach into the pot on payday and is trusted to take out only what they've earned per your compensation formula?

You've inadvertently answered the question. Since it is the Zekester's formula, he is the one who is overseeing the disbursement. For all the companies. Luckily only in the US.  icon_biggrin
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« Reply #368 on: March 23, 2011, 03:00:49 PM »

I'm just surprised I'm reading even the slightest endorsement of a socialist/communist form of government in posts by anyone who calls themselves right leaning. 
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« Reply #369 on: March 23, 2011, 03:24:17 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 23, 2011, 02:30:19 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 02:22:20 PM

No. With profits being public, everyone would know what they should be getting.

There wouldnt be much need for oversight.

That doesn't answer my question as to who dispenses the funds.  Or does everyone just reach into the pot on payday and is trusted to take out only what they've earned per your compensation formula?

Payroll dispenses the funds just as they would normally. But instead of the usual hourly or salary rate, it would be based off of the profit earnings formula. I'm no payroll expert, but why wouldn't it work this easy? Maybe it could be based on a 3-month earnings report, or something along those lines.

Quote
I'm just surprised I'm reading even the slightest endorsement of a socialist/communist form of government in posts by anyone who calls themselves right leaning. 

I've said before that I just happen to be aligned with the right, for the most part, right now. I've certainly had more liberal leanings when I was younger, but this is normal. I'm also pro-choice.

But I hate greed. And I know that it's greed that has given the "right" some of it's bad rap.



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« Reply #370 on: March 23, 2011, 03:29:06 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 03:24:17 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 23, 2011, 02:30:19 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 02:22:20 PM

No. With profits being public, everyone would know what they should be getting.

There wouldnt be much need for oversight.

That doesn't answer my question as to who dispenses the funds.  Or does everyone just reach into the pot on payday and is trusted to take out only what they've earned per your compensation formula?

Payroll dispenses the funds just as they would normally. But instead of the usual hourly or salary rate, it would be based off of the profit earnings formula. I'm no payroll expert, but why wouldn't it work this easy? Maybe it could be based on a 3-month earnings report, or something along those lines.


The problem is that you're never going to have the level of transparency you seem to want.  Who creates those earning reports?   Who determines the correct percentage? 

Also, you're assuming that all labor below management is of equal ability and therefore deserving of the same compensation.  That really does fly in the face of capitalism and is the very antithesis of the form of government you say you believe in.
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« Reply #371 on: March 23, 2011, 03:35:27 PM »

I cannot express how much I'm enjoying Zekester's attempts to fix imaginary socialism by proposing actual socialism.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #372 on: March 23, 2011, 04:02:13 PM »

Well I would certainly welcome a government mandate for transparency of earnings so that something like this might work, over what we have with the unions right now. As far as I and a whole lot of others are concerned, unions are in one camp. And this shouldn't be, for either side.

There would be a need for a lot of fine-tuning, but think of the benefits: employees would be motivated to do a better job, since their earnings are directly related to the company's earnings. This isn't the case in communism. And employees would still be motivated to climb the "ladder" because of the progressive pay scale.

Only the very top-level stand to lose a little compared to what they might have now, but sometimes those greedy bastards need to be kept in check  icon_surprised but they'd still stand to make a lot of money. And that money really wouldn't be "capped" because if the company earns more, so do they and everyone else.
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« Reply #373 on: March 23, 2011, 04:06:47 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 04:02:13 PM

Well I would certainly welcome a government mandate for transparency of earnings so that something like this might work, over what we have with the unions right now.

Those two things aren't mutually inclusive.
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« Reply #374 on: March 23, 2011, 04:21:47 PM »

Unions are an extension of government now, specifically of the Democratic Party.

Let's even it up.
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« Reply #375 on: March 23, 2011, 04:26:07 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 04:21:47 PM

Unions are an extension of government now, specifically of the Democratic Party.

Let's even it up.

By moving towards a socialist government?

By abolishing labor's right to representation on equal footing with management?

Or both?

p.s. are you upset with unions because of any actual, informed belief; or simply because you view them as an extension of the democratic party and your knee jerk reaction to the word "democrat" is to simply hate it?  I'm convinced it's the latter when you write such things.
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« Reply #376 on: March 23, 2011, 04:51:15 PM »

Are you actually going to bullshit yourself, and me, by saying unions are not directly tied in to the Democrats now?
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« Reply #377 on: March 23, 2011, 05:11:03 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 23, 2011, 04:51:15 PM

Are you actually going to bullshit yourself, and me, by saying unions are not directly tied in to the Democrats now?

you didn't understand my comment, did you?
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« Reply #378 on: March 23, 2011, 08:26:24 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 23, 2011, 03:35:27 PM

I cannot express how much I'm enjoying Zekester's attempts to fix imaginary socialism by proposing actual socialism.

-Autistic Angel

It completely boggles my mind how leftist this idea is, and he doesn't seem to realize it. Govt. mandated salaries? Wow, just wow.

Or maybe his trolling is just becoming very sophisticated.

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« Reply #379 on: March 23, 2011, 09:54:05 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on March 23, 2011, 08:26:24 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 23, 2011, 03:35:27 PM

I cannot express how much I'm enjoying Zekester's attempts to fix imaginary socialism by proposing actual socialism.

-Autistic Angel

It completely boggles my mind how leftist this idea is, and he doesn't seem to realize it. Govt. mandated salaries? Wow, just wow.


I rather like the idea. To simplify implementation, companies could turn all of their payroll over to the government to easily ensure fair redistribution. Think of the savings on payroll administration!  icon_wink
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« Reply #380 on: March 24, 2011, 12:00:30 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on March 23, 2011, 09:54:05 PM

Quote from: Alefroth on March 23, 2011, 08:26:24 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 23, 2011, 03:35:27 PM

I cannot express how much I'm enjoying Zekester's attempts to fix imaginary socialism by proposing actual socialism.

-Autistic Angel

It completely boggles my mind how leftist this idea is, and he doesn't seem to realize it. Govt. mandated salaries? Wow, just wow.


I rather like the idea. To simplify implementation, companies could turn all of their payroll over to the government to easily ensure fair redistribution. Think of the savings on payroll administration!  icon_wink

Look, lay off.  Zeke knows the core values underlying America, you guys have just forgotten them:  "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
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« Reply #381 on: March 24, 2011, 02:00:34 AM »

Ehh, I thought it made some sense....and was actually a fair idea for both sides.

But if invokes this type of reaction, then by all means let's stay with what we have.
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« Reply #382 on: March 24, 2011, 02:20:33 AM »

Yeah, because those are the only two options.

I don't see how you can be in favor of govt. limiting a CEO's salary, but be so opposed to raising their tax rate.

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« Reply #383 on: March 24, 2011, 02:23:06 AM »

But if the CEO's salaries are based on the profits of his/her own company, it's not that limited.
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« Reply #384 on: March 24, 2011, 02:53:53 AM »

It'd be interesting to see what percentage of profits an average CEO's salary is now. But then their actual salary is pretty small compared to the non-salary compensation they get.

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« Reply #385 on: March 24, 2011, 02:56:01 AM »

And what of businesses that do not turn profits in the first years?  This plan effectively kills any and all new small businesses.
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« Reply #386 on: March 24, 2011, 05:16:36 AM »

I may have missed some posts, but in Zeke's hyper-socialist business reorganization plan I see no mention of:

1. The fact that companies actually save up large portions of their earnings beyond costs. Apple, for instance, has tens of billions in the bank for a rainy day. His plan would seem to preclude that.

2. He seems to be ignoring the actual owners of the company -- shareholders. Or are we truly socializing all ownership, and ending the shareholder market for raising capital?

Not that his notional system would be functional, anyway. Like all extremely socialistic systems, it would fail because people don't act in rational or egalitarian manners all that often.
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« Reply #387 on: March 24, 2011, 11:46:42 AM »

Quote from: gellar on March 24, 2011, 02:56:01 AM

And what of businesses that do not turn profits in the first years?  This plan effectively kills any and all new small businesses.

would it be any different if their employees were making an hourly wage?

Quote
I may have missed some posts, but in Zeke's hyper-socialist business reorganization plan I see no mention of:

1. The fact that companies actually save up large portions of their earnings beyond costs. Apple, for instance, has tens of billions in the bank for a rainy day. His plan would seem to preclude that.

2. He seems to be ignoring the actual owners of the company -- shareholders. Or are we truly socializing all ownership, and ending the shareholder market for raising capital?

Not that his notional system would be functional, anyway. Like all extremely socialistic systems, it would fail because people don't act in rational or egalitarian manners all that often.

1) It would preclude that. Or at the very most, an agreed upon small percentage would be set aside for it...and would be exempt from the profit calculations for payroll?

2) Ya, guess so

It was just something that i've thought about for awhile now and seemed to be a viable solution to labor/earnings problems here.
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« Reply #388 on: March 24, 2011, 03:17:41 PM »

Hmmm...sounds like we'd need some sort of independent external agency to monitor company profits and personal earnings to ensure everyone was following the rules, and with the power to conduct a more thorough investigation if discrepancies were found.

Does anyone know if there's a service to monitor internal revenue?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #389 on: March 24, 2011, 03:20:36 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 11:46:42 AM

Quote
I may have missed some posts, but in Zeke's hyper-socialist business reorganization plan I see no mention of:

1. The fact that companies actually save up large portions of their earnings beyond costs. Apple, for instance, has tens of billions in the bank for a rainy day. His plan would seem to preclude that.


1) It would preclude that. Or at the very most, an agreed upon small percentage would be set aside for it...and would be exempt from the profit calculations for payroll?

That sounds okay I guess. So, since its unrealistic to presume we could fit all the workers and all the upper management in one room together, what say we have a representative for the workers (lets call him a representative for the united common voice of the employees) meet with upper management to figure out how small that percentage should be? And then the UNIted cOmmoN representative can go back to the workers who can then vote on whether or not that percentage is reasonable?
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« Reply #390 on: March 24, 2011, 03:29:04 PM »

Quote from: raydude on March 24, 2011, 03:20:36 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 11:46:42 AM

Quote
I may have missed some posts, but in Zeke's hyper-socialist business reorganization plan I see no mention of:

1. The fact that companies actually save up large portions of their earnings beyond costs. Apple, for instance, has tens of billions in the bank for a rainy day. His plan would seem to preclude that.


1) It would preclude that. Or at the very most, an agreed upon small percentage would be set aside for it...and would be exempt from the profit calculations for payroll?

That sounds okay I guess. So, since its unrealistic to presume we could fit all the workers and all the upper management in one room together, what say we have a representative for the workers (lets call him a representative for the united common voice of the employees) meet with upper management to figure out how small that percentage should be? And then the UNIted cOmmoN representative can go back to the workers who can then vote on whether or not that percentage is reasonable?

Sure. A private-based business with no political leanings and income received for personal use only would fit the bill nicely.

Something like a dual-titled accountant?
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« Reply #391 on: March 24, 2011, 03:29:58 PM »

ummm....zeke...look at the capitalized letters in that post...   icon_wink
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« Reply #392 on: March 24, 2011, 03:31:43 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 03:29:58 PM

ummm....zeke...look at the capitalized letters in that post...   icon_wink

I saw it. I knew what he was getting at.

But unions as they are now are not the answer, and as we all have seen recently....can be quite the problem.
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« Reply #393 on: March 24, 2011, 03:36:08 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:31:43 PM

Quote from: hepcat on March 24, 2011, 03:29:58 PM

ummm....zeke...look at the capitalized letters in that post...   icon_wink

I saw it. I knew what he was getting at.

But unions as they are now are not the answer, and as we all have seen recently....can be quite the problem.

correction:  as YOU have seen recently.  Yes, there have been some issues with the unions in the past, but every organization in existence has had issues at one point or another.  if we start eliminating things instead of fixing them, we'll end up screwing ourselves.  You have a personal vendetta against unions and you let it influence your objectivity.
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« Reply #394 on: March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM »

hepcat, if you think it's just me you're in for a big surprise.

I don't want to beat this dead horse again too much, but unions have abused their power big time. Do you think those Dems that fled recently did so because they actually cared about the people? Shame on you if you did. No, it's quite obvious what was at stake for them...the loss of power, influence and money with this "attack" on the unions.

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.
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« Reply #395 on: March 24, 2011, 04:00:23 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going.

There are a significant number of states where membership is voluntary. If one is concerned with the funds, then taking an active role at union meetings and/or running for an officer slot are available options.

And as for reviewing financial statements, head on over to the Department of Labor and you can pull up any union's financial reports.
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« Reply #396 on: March 24, 2011, 04:01:07 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.

You mean like how the Wisconsin State Troopers union is so tied in with the Republican party because they supported Scott Walker and are thus exempt from his elimination of bargaining rights for state unions?
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« Reply #397 on: March 24, 2011, 04:10:34 PM »

Quote from: raydude on March 24, 2011, 04:01:07 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

It's just flat-out WRONG how unions are so tied in with one party now.

You mean like how the Wisconsin State Troopers union is so tied in with the Republican party because they supported Scott Walker and are thus exempt from his elimination of bargaining rights for state unions?

sure. it's wrong from either side.

Quote
There are a significant number of states where membership is voluntary. If one is concerned with the funds, then taking an active role at union meetings and/or running for an officer slot are available options.

not being disrespectful, but there are hardly a 'significant' amount. and as far as trying to take an active role to be an officer in the hopes of implementing changes that might actually reduce the union's power and/or monies is a pipe dream. sounds great in theory, virtually impossible in reality.
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« Reply #398 on: March 24, 2011, 04:14:15 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

Same could be said about state or federal taxes really.  It's an imperfect solution: when you are working for the collective good, the collective needs to fully participate.  If they don't (as in, don't pay taxes or dues) then it becomes a logistical nightmare.
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Zekester
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« Reply #399 on: March 24, 2011, 04:16:36 PM »

Quote from: gellar on March 24, 2011, 04:14:15 PM

Quote from: Zekester on March 24, 2011, 03:47:48 PM

I don't really care if unions stay a part of this country, and as i've already said they do serve good purposes sometimes. But members should be able to opt out of dues.....or at the very least, decide where those dues should go. Or those dues income should have an oversight committee seeing where they are going. (ya ya...more big government)

Same could be said about state or federal taxes really.  It's an imperfect solution: when you are working for the collective good, the collective needs to fully participate.  If they don't (as in, don't pay taxes or dues) then it becomes a logistical nightmare.

But as it stands today, "collective good" has lost it's definition

Tell you what.....I wouldn't be at all surprised that if my "anti-union" views fell upon the right (wrong?) ears, and my address was known, that i wouldn't receive a visit from a goon or two to "straighten" me out.

That's what public opinion of unions now is starting to become, and it's not based on fiction.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 04:19:48 PM by Zekester » Logged

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