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Author Topic: What will Obama's Scandals Be?  (Read 9139 times)
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #240 on: June 07, 2013, 10:27:09 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 07, 2013, 12:45:33 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 07, 2013, 01:09:48 AM

But what's really interesting, ATB, is that I can't find one single instance where you've spoke out against this sort of domestic data mining and wiretapping before.

Seems like you stopped talking about it when a dem hit the whitehouse...other than to couch it as the fault of the previous repub administration.


As explained in the paragraphs immediately above the line you quoted, ATB, there are substantial differences between the warrantless wiretapping performed by the Bush administration and the judicially & congressionally approved wiretapping by the Obama administration.  I don't happen to like either one, but for self-evident reasons, I find the illegal one with zero oversight more objectionable than the other.

Secondly, who would I argue the point with?  Zekester?  Eco-Logic?  You?  The mainstream Right has been so preoccupied with fabricating stories about death panels, FEMA concentration camps, birth certificates, and imaginary coverups; so gleeful about breaching the debt ceiling, repealing ObamaCare, suppressing voter turnout, and saying hideously stupid things about rape, you gave up any pretense of principled opposition a long time ago. 

And since you blithely hand-waved privacy concerns for years during the Bush administration it would be humiliatingly disingenuous if you suddenly decided it was a worthy of discussion under Obama.


Quote from: ATB on June 07, 2013, 12:45:33 PM

And to actually answer your question, I was naive. 


Oh, you were naive!  Past tense, because now you're not.  And by an astonishing coincidence, your eyes were opened to the dangers of sweeping domestic spying at exactly the same time that every right-wing pundit, blogger, and talk show host suddenly had that same epiphany! 

It's just like how the national debt became an urgent priority just after November 2008!  And how the individual health insurance mandate seemed perfectly constitutional in all the decades before ObamaCare!  And how caged "Free Speech Zones" were a great idea, right up until they weren't!

It's like a miracle!

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #241 on: June 10, 2013, 01:47:48 PM »

I know that the IRS thing is pretty much put to bed at this point, but it is worth noting that the extra scrutiny for Tea Party groups came from self-described conservative IRS employees and not the White House

Quote
A U.S. Internal Revenue Service manager, who described himself as a conservative Republican, told congressional investigators that he and a local colleague decided to give conservative groups the extra scrutiny that has prompted weeks of political controversy.

In an official interview transcript released on Sunday by Democratic Representative Elijah Cummings, the manager said he and an underling set aside "Tea Party" and "patriot" groups that had applied for tax-exempt status because the organizations appeared to pose a new precedent that could affect future IRS filings.

So...does that downgrade this from an atrocity to a scandal?  Or maybe just a kerfuffle?  I just don't know anymore...

EDIT:  can't spell this morning.
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« Reply #242 on: June 10, 2013, 02:05:40 PM »

The only scandal that I think is anything but Republican posturing is the surveillance issues that arose over the last few days.  And that's a systemic break down that started right after 9/11.  We need stop wasting our time with political showboating and tackle how we're going to maintain the freedoms we've come to expect while still maintaining security in the face of a unorthodox war that isn't taking place on the battlefield, but in the homes of extremists everywhere.
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« Reply #243 on: June 10, 2013, 02:17:21 PM »

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« Reply #244 on: June 10, 2013, 02:38:57 PM »

 icon_lol
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« Reply #245 on: June 10, 2013, 02:52:31 PM »

so, any new atrocities?
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« Reply #246 on: June 10, 2013, 03:21:57 PM »

Apparently he was high on cocaine and engaging in a homosexual affair during Benghazi.
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« Reply #247 on: June 10, 2013, 03:27:37 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 10, 2013, 03:21:57 PM

Apparently he was high on cocaine and engaging in a homosexual affair during Benghazi.

but can't you throw a rock into the Republican convention with the guarantee of hitting someone who has done the same thing?  stirthepot
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« Reply #248 on: June 10, 2013, 03:42:28 PM »

If it's a crack rock, it won't even hit the ground.

but that goes for both parties.
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« Reply #249 on: June 10, 2013, 10:22:40 PM »



Opinions do change depending on if our guy is in the White House.  icon_wink

More survey results here.
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« Reply #250 on: June 11, 2013, 05:14:32 AM »

I sent my rep a letter over the weekend about the e-mail monitoring, citing the Telephone Records and Privacy Protection Act (TRPPA) of 2006 (during which I was working for Cingular at the height of the pretexting scandals) and the Katz v. United States (1967) case that has a definition of "unreasonable searches" as 1) when a person expects privacy and 2) society believes it to be reasonable.

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The scope and depth of the surveillance on American citizens under this Administration is unacceptable. There is always a careful balance that must be met between securing public safety and the erosion of our civil liberties, and the recent Administration scandals make it difficult to trust them with this kind of power. I will work with my House colleagues who share these concerns to make sure that we get all of the facts about these programs and ensure that our civil liberties are continually protected.

My issues in the long term are with the highlighted portions, as I'm not real keen on his party's next candidate having access to call records without a warrant either, but I'll not throw away the tool I have in hand at the moment just because he's ill-suited to other tasks.  Besides, as a moderate in Texas, I'm not likely to see one more suited to my needs in the foreseeable future in any case.
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« Reply #251 on: June 11, 2013, 08:57:05 PM »

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They're trying to justify these warrantless wiretaps by saying "Oh, it's al Qaida!" One guy is saying it's just al Qaida -- the Hayden guy, and then on the other hand, you hear from the FBI that they were inundated with referrals on all kinds of stuff with these calls, so much so that they couldn't get to their real work, and that none of the referrals led anywhere.

I think it's a Rove-ian strategy: "We win on national security; we'll scare people, and then we'll just win."

Quote
I can assure you, this is not about spying on the American people...

I have a high level of confidence that this is used to protect us, and I know that it has been successful in preventing terrorism.

There are certain things that are appropriate for me to know that is not appropriate for the bad guys to know.

Guess who was President when Al Franken made these statements?
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« Reply #252 on: June 11, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »

Spiro Agnew?
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Moliere
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« Reply #253 on: June 11, 2013, 09:59:25 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 11, 2013, 09:28:09 PM

Spiro Agnew?

Close, but it was two different guys. One went to Harvard and one went to Yale.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #254 on: June 11, 2013, 11:22:37 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on June 11, 2013, 08:57:05 PM

Quote
They're trying to justify these warrantless wiretaps by saying "Oh, it's al Qaida!" One guy is saying it's just al Qaida -- the Hayden guy, and then on the other hand, you hear from the FBI that they were inundated with referrals on all kinds of stuff with these calls, so much so that they couldn't get to their real work, and that none of the referrals led anywhere.

I think it's a Rove-ian strategy: "We win on national security; we'll scare people, and then we'll just win."

Quote
I can assure you, this is not about spying on the American people...

I have a high level of confidence that this is used to protect us, and I know that it has been successful in preventing terrorism.

There are certain things that are appropriate for me to know that is not appropriate for the bad guys to know.

Guess who was President when Al Franken made these statements?


I'm going to bet that the first quote was when George W. Bush was president because it references the warrantless wiretapping program with zero judicial or congressional oversight that his administration secretly decided it had the legal authority to enact.

The second quote was probably made during the Obama administration, referencing the current wiretapping program which requires renewing warrants from the FISA court and regular reports to members of Congress, including the Subcommittee on Terrorism and Homeland Security which is chaired by Senator Al Franken.


This, by the way, is why I'm not inclined to sit down and pen multi-paragraph deconstructions of why nearly unlimited data mining is so troubling.  Moliere is more interested in *pretending* not to understand the significance of a judicial warrant.  He wants someone to explain to him the difference between a presidential administration that simply decides it has the power to secretly spy on anyone they like, and one that adheres to a 2008 law that allows sweeping surveillance with layers of oversight.

I have a powerful dislike for both programs.  My position on compromising the privacy of millions of Americans in the hopes of catching five bad guys who may or may not exist has not changed one whit.  Unfortunately, when people like Moliere try to conflate Bush's very illegal program with Obama's explicitly legal one, I wind up "defending" the program by pointing out his silly fallacies.

So please stop playing dumb, Moliere.  Liberals are getting plenty riled up about this, and the more you cloud the water with the same flaking moose crap, the more likely it is that people will mistake this for the latest in a long line of Republican hyper-partisan lies.  There actually is a problem here.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #255 on: June 12, 2013, 02:16:24 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 11, 2013, 11:22:37 PM

This, by the way, is why I'm not inclined to sit down and pen multi-paragraph deconstructions of why nearly unlimited data mining is so troubling.  Moliere is more interested in *pretending* not to understand the significance of a judicial warrant.  He wants someone to explain to him the difference between a presidential administration that simply decides it has the power to secretly spy on anyone they like, and one that adheres to a 2008 law that allows sweeping surveillance with layers of oversight.

Are FISA warrants an example of layers of oversight? The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court is about as rubber stamped as you can get so what is the point of pretending they provide any kind of oversight?

Or is Congress another example of layers of oversight?

Quote
Stephanopoulos then asked Ellison how much Congress knew about the program. His response? "Almost nothing."

"I'm allowed to see certain things, and they tell us it's available if you make time at certain times and places to go see it, but the fact is, no, I'm not aware of the program that was revealed [this week]," Ellison said. "I had no notice. It's a fiction that everybody in Congress knew."
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« Reply #256 on: June 17, 2013, 01:30:29 PM »

Quote
For the first time in Obama’s presidency, half of the public says they don't believe he is honest and trustworthy

Scandals will do that.


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"The drop in Obama's support is fueled by a dramatic 17-point decline over the past month among people under 30, who, along with black Americans, had been the most loyal part of the Obama coalition," says CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

The president also dropped 10 points among independent voters, from 47% last month to 37% now, with Obama's disapproval among independents jumping 12 points to 61%.
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« Reply #257 on: June 17, 2013, 07:08:25 PM »

Well, it's a good thing he won't be running for re-election, then. 
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« Reply #258 on: June 17, 2013, 08:55:48 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on June 17, 2013, 07:08:25 PM

Well, it's a good thing he won't be running for re-election, then. 

As if a Constitutional restriction ever stopped this foreign born President.  icon_wink
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« Reply #259 on: June 17, 2013, 10:46:06 PM »

True fact:  Obama was the inspiration for the villain in Ridley Scott's Legend.  He also has lamp shades made from human skin. 
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« Reply #260 on: June 20, 2013, 07:20:22 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raxUNmzgCWE

This clip from Biden back in 2006 is fun to watch.   As always what is right and wrong depends on if your party has the presidency.
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« Reply #261 on: June 20, 2013, 10:43:37 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 17, 2013, 10:46:06 PM

True fact:  Obama was the inspiration for the villain in Ridley Scott's Legend.  He also has lamp shades made from human skin. 

Blacklights?

Yeah, I went there.  retard
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« Reply #262 on: August 05, 2013, 05:01:57 PM »

Yep. All on the up & up.  Roll Eyes


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secretive U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration unit is funneling information from intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records to authorities across the nation to help them launch criminal investigations of Americans.

Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges.



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« Reply #263 on: August 05, 2013, 07:33:30 PM »

This should be under a thread about government policies in general as it sure in the hell didn't start with Obama.  I'm not excusing it, I'm simply pointing out that you're blaming one guy for shooting you in a room full of guys with guns.
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« Reply #264 on: August 05, 2013, 08:20:53 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 05, 2013, 07:33:30 PM

This should be under a thread about government policies in general as it sure in the hell didn't start with Obama.  I'm not excusing it, I'm simply pointing out that you're blaming one guy for shooting you in a room full of guys with guns.

I put it here because this is where the topic (NSA) first got brought up as a scandal...not blaming Obama though he's expanded what bush did.
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« Reply #265 on: August 07, 2013, 11:56:35 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 05, 2013, 08:20:53 PM

I put it here because this is where the topic (NSA) first got brought up as a scandal...not blaming Obama though he's expanded what bush did.


Actually, the earliest thread I can find in which this sort of broad base wiretapping was brought up as a scandal is this one:

Quote from: Autistic Angel on December 17, 2005, 06:49:45 PM

I'm not usually in the habit of starting policial threads, but this situation seems like a big deal to me.  I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up yet -- as far as I can tell, this is an honest-to-God textbook example of an impeachable offense.

From the CNN article:

Quote
The NSA eavesdrops on billions of communications worldwide. Although the NSA is barred from domestic spying, it can get warrants issued with the permission of a special court called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Court.

The court is set up specifically to issue warrants allowing wiretapping on domestic soil.

The FISAC, in fact, exists for the sole purpose of issuing such warrants, and the fact that they will statistically almost never turn down such a request has made them a target of the ACLU and other civil rights advocacy groups for years now.  *If* it holds true that the Bush administration didn't even bother to seek such a warrant -- or worse, were actually turned for one -- the President of the United States has now confessed to a felony.  On the other hand, if the FISAC did issue a warrant -- the court is notoriously secretive and is not subject to any congressional oversight -- this could trigger a major change in how domestic espionage is handled in the future.


Of course, we now know that the Bush administration did have a completely warrantless wiretapping program for years, and that Conservatives vigorously defended the practice as a necessary anti-terrorism tool right through the end of his term.

But, you know, whatever.  That 2005 thread predates the Politics & Religion section of the forums, so it would have been awkward to bump now that you've suddenly realized domestic spying is anathema to your Strong Core Principles.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #266 on: August 13, 2013, 03:49:57 PM »

Yes and candidate Obama campaigned and won partially on his promises that he would end programs like that, not expand them.   But then Obama should already have been impeached for the whole bit about how it is OK to assassinate US citizens without charge or trial.
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« Reply #267 on: August 13, 2013, 04:08:15 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 07, 2013, 11:56:35 PM


But, you know, whatever.  That 2005 thread predates the Politics & Religion section of the forums, so it would have been awkward to bump now that you've suddenly realized domestic spying is anathema to your Strong Core Principles.

-Autistic Angel

And I guess you're going back and retroactively supporting the Bush Admin. Everyone wins!
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« Reply #268 on: August 20, 2013, 12:18:43 PM »

Acting like blind thugs continues.

Quote
The White House knew the move was coming.
"There was a heads up that was provided by the British government," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said Monday.
So the United States knew it "was likely to occur, but it's not something that we've requested and it's something that was done specifically by the British law enforcement officials there," he said.

So they didn't request it, yet without Snowden leaking NSA documents, what reason would they have. Funny how willing England is to be a lap dog.

Quote
Miranda is quoted by the Guardian as saying: "So they think I have a big connection. But I don't have a role. I don't look at documents. I don't even know if it was documents that I was carrying. It could have been for the movie that Laura is working on."
"If the UK and U.S. governments believe that tactics like this are going to deter or intimidate us in any way from continuing to report aggressively on what these documents reveal, they are beyond deluded," said Greenwald.
"If anything, it will have only the opposite effect: to embolden us even further."

Good, time that all this dirty laundry was exposed.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/19/world/europe/greenwald-partner-detained/index.html

I thought this was the one area that would improve under the democrats but alas not so. The only differences between the parties these days seems to be what they waste money on, both parties have become jack booted thugs. Sickens me that they leave me hoping for a borderline isolationist like Paul because that may be the only way to end the aggressive authoritarian agenda the Dems AND Reps seem hell bent on.
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« Reply #269 on: October 30, 2013, 03:51:47 AM »

You guys were right. It was silly to expect scandal in the second term of a presidency.

Feel free to deride the source, but everyone has picked it up.

I want universal care to succeed, but

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« Reply #270 on: October 30, 2013, 04:13:05 AM »

Uhm, how could the President guarantee that insurers wouldn't do this? Was there a law passed forcing insurers to give people the same plan?

Policies and services change, and insurance companies (IE open market) are willing to change their offerings to ensure they make more money.

How is this news?

Also, why can I see her legs? I can't see other newscasters legs.
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« Reply #271 on: October 30, 2013, 04:14:43 AM »

goddamn...

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« Reply #272 on: October 30, 2013, 04:25:27 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:14:43 AM

goddamn...



Magic is dead. I've heard her talk.
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« Reply #273 on: October 30, 2013, 04:35:40 AM »

The only thing that surprises me is how many people actually thought that when he said "No matter what you have heard, I'm telling you. You can keep you insurance if you like it. You can keep your doctor."

Dupes.

Anyway in reference to this piece of the lie.

Quote
None of this should come as a shock to the Obama administration. The law states that policies in effect as of March 23, 2010 will be “grandfathered,” meaning consumers can keep those policies even though they don’t meet requirements of the new health care law. But the Department of Health and Human Services then wrote regulations that narrowed that provision, by saying that if any part of a policy was significantly changed since that date -- the deductible, co-pay, or benefits, for example -- the policy would not be grandfathered.

Quote
Buried in Obamacare regulations from July 2010 is an estimate that because of normal turnover in the individual insurance market, “40 to 67 percent” of customers will not be able to keep their policy. And because many policies will have been changed since the key date, “the percentage of individual market policies losing grandfather status in a given year exceeds the 40 to 67 percent range.” 
That means the administration knew that more than 40 to 67 percent of those in the individual market would not be able to keep their plans, even if they liked them.
Yet President Obama, who had promised in 2009, “if you like your health plan, you will be able to keep your health plan,” was still saying in 2012, “If [you] already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance.”
“This says that when they made the promise, they knew half the people in this market outright couldn’t keep what they had and then they wrote the rules so that others couldn’t make it either,” said  Robert Laszewski, of Health Policy and Strategy Associates, a consultant who works for health industry firms. Laszewski estimates that 80 percent of those in the individual market will not be able to keep their current policies and will have to buy insurance that meets requirements of the new law, which generally requires a richer package of benefits than most policies today.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21213547-obama-admin-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance

Note that is an NBC story, where if it is about the administration and it bad you know it has to be true or no way in hell would they print it.

Face it what he aws saying was not true and HE KNEW it. Well in as much as he seems to know anything.
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« Reply #274 on: October 30, 2013, 04:36:55 AM »

Quote from: Purge on October 30, 2013, 04:25:27 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:14:43 AM

goddamn...



Magic is dead. I've heard her talk.

Nothing a ball gag won't fix.
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« Reply #275 on: October 30, 2013, 04:51:09 AM »

Quote from: Rip on October 30, 2013, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 30, 2013, 04:25:27 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:14:43 AM

goddamn...



Magic is dead. I've heard her talk.

Nothing a ball gag won't fix.

yeah, just stuff her secondary cockhole biggrin
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« Reply #276 on: October 30, 2013, 08:12:00 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:51:09 AM

Quote from: Rip on October 30, 2013, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 30, 2013, 04:25:27 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:14:43 AM

goddamn...



Magic is dead. I've heard her talk.

Nothing a ball gag won't fix.

yeah, just stuff her secondary cockhole biggrin

Its no wonder we don't have women on this board.
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A new one
Purge
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« Reply #277 on: October 30, 2013, 11:34:43 AM »

HEY! I just strongly disagree with her assessment of the "scandal".
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Scraper
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« Reply #278 on: October 30, 2013, 11:44:42 AM »

Quote from: Razgon on October 30, 2013, 08:12:00 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:51:09 AM

Quote from: Rip on October 30, 2013, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 30, 2013, 04:25:27 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on October 30, 2013, 04:14:43 AM

goddamn...



Magic is dead. I've heard her talk.

Nothing a ball gag won't fix.

yeah, just stuff her secondary cockhole biggrin

Its no wonder we don't have women on this board.

Is it because Purge's avatar keeps scaring them off?
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raydude
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« Reply #279 on: October 30, 2013, 12:50:34 PM »

Quote from: Rip on October 30, 2013, 04:35:40 AM

The only thing that surprises me is how many people actually thought that when he said "No matter what you have heard, I'm telling you. You can keep you insurance if you like it. You can keep your doctor."

Dupes.

Anyway in reference to this piece of the lie.

Quote
None of this should come as a shock to the Obama administration. The law states that policies in effect as of March 23, 2010 will be “grandfathered,” meaning consumers can keep those policies even though they don’t meet requirements of the new health care law. But the Department of Health and Human Services then wrote regulations that narrowed that provision, by saying that if any part of a policy was significantly changed since that date -- the deductible, co-pay, or benefits, for example -- the policy would not be grandfathered.

Quote
Buried in Obamacare regulations from July 2010 is an estimate that because of normal turnover in the individual insurance market, “40 to 67 percent” of customers will not be able to keep their policy. And because many policies will have been changed since the key date, “the percentage of individual market policies losing grandfather status in a given year exceeds the 40 to 67 percent range.” 
That means the administration knew that more than 40 to 67 percent of those in the individual market would not be able to keep their plans, even if they liked them.
Yet President Obama, who had promised in 2009, “if you like your health plan, you will be able to keep your health plan,” was still saying in 2012, “If [you] already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance.”
“This says that when they made the promise, they knew half the people in this market outright couldn’t keep what they had and then they wrote the rules so that others couldn’t make it either,” said  Robert Laszewski, of Health Policy and Strategy Associates, a consultant who works for health industry firms. Laszewski estimates that 80 percent of those in the individual market will not be able to keep their current policies and will have to buy insurance that meets requirements of the new law, which generally requires a richer package of benefits than most policies today.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21213547-obama-admin-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance

Note that is an NBC story, where if it is about the administration and it bad you know it has to be true or no way in hell would they print it.

Face it what he aws saying was not true and HE KNEW it. Well in as much as he seems to know anything.

I agree. He really should have had the balls to say "Look. If you have a crappy plan, you will be forced to drop your crappy plan. But face it, it's cheap because its crappy. Are you willing to risk your savings on a crappy plan that won't cover hospitalization, outpatient procedures, specialist referrals, or pre-existing conditions?"

Faced with this I think Congress has only one solution. Push for a Crappy Care Act that forces insurance companies to re-instate their crappy cheap plans with the caveat that people on the crappy plans are on the hook to pay any out-of-pocket costs.
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A Pew Research Center poll found nearly half of Americans hold the false belief that TARP was passed under President Obama, while only 34 percent know it originated under Bush.
"Oh yeah?" Bush replied. "50% of the people were wrong."
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