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Author Topic: What happens if McCain somehow wins?  (Read 8861 times)
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brettmcd
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« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2008, 05:50:54 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 03, 2008, 05:44:58 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:17:16 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on November 03, 2008, 04:02:59 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:14:08 AM

Quote from: leo8877 on November 03, 2008, 04:25:28 AM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 01, 2008, 10:01:03 PM

Quote from: leo8877 on November 01, 2008, 12:42:18 PM

Of all the topics that there are to back a candidate for in this day and age, with war and the economy crumbling, it boggles the mind that the one item you list is abortion. 

I'm not going to argue the point as it's a waste of time.

Quote
You are not a woman.  Let them choose on their own.

True, I'm not. I'm also not a pilot so I guess I should let them choose whether or not to let them land the plane upside down.

You are comparing letting a woman choose what to do with her body to a pilot crashing a plane and killing people.....wow.

Well her 'choice' does involve killing another human being.

Only if you can prove that the "victim" is in fact a "human being".  And so far your definition is based on your own belief structure, not on scientific evidence for proven sentience.  And I would expect your definition of "human being" to also fit your belief structure so as to ensure that your perspective is established, at least in your own mind. 

I base it completely on scientific evidence, human life begins at conception, that is a simple biological fact, nothing is going to change that, it has nothing to do with religion, a belief structure or anything like that, it comes from 8th grade biology.   

But in order to call abortion "murder", the crime must be committed against another human person.  Until you have an actual human to kill, it cannot be considered "murder".  After all, a zygote is not an actual person.  At least not yet.   

Abortion is legal in the united states past the age of viability as well, and that is completely supported by many in the pro choice movement.

Also if a zygote is not a human being what is it?   A frog?  A Cat?  An alien?
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« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2008, 05:56:28 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:50:54 PM

Also if a zygote is not a human being what is it?   A frog?  A Cat?  An alien?

A fertilized cell, that if viable, could lead to the development of a human.  But it is still just a fertilized cell.  It is far from being an actual human being.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2008, 06:03:51 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 03, 2008, 05:56:28 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:50:54 PM

Also if a zygote is not a human being what is it?   A frog?  A Cat?  An alien?

A fertilized cell, that if viable, could lead to the development of a human.  But it is still just a fertilized cell.  It is far from being an actual human being.

Well in most states the unborn have been given legal standing under the law, in many its considered 2 murder charges for someone who kills a woman who is pregnant.   So it seems that the law disagrees with you in most of the united states.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Fetal_homicide_in_the_United_States
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cheeba
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« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2008, 06:04:24 PM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on November 03, 2008, 03:16:58 PM

But I find it willfully ignorant that some people believe that Murder and Theft are illegal because the commandments of their one religion out of the many world religions forbids such acts, and since the acts were outlawed where they live, the laws must be a representation of a majority belief in the religion rather than the principles of the laws stand for unto themselves.
Do you think religion, specifically Christianity, has had no effect on the laws of the United States? There is undoubtedly a link between law and religion.
Quote
One doesn't have to believe in any religion at all and can still decide that Murder and Theft are wrong, and there exists religions which believed it was wrong long before the founding and scriptures of the Jewish or Christian religions.
I don't see anyone making the claim that people must be religious to believe it is wrong, nor is anyone claiming that Christianity was the first to make these moral declarations.
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Laws exist to handle the times where people chose on their own to not behave in the adherence to the common good.
There are plenty of laws on the book that have nothing to do with the common good. Many of these laws are created for religious and/or morality judgements. One of the southern states has an anti-sodomy law, for instance.
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PeteRock
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« Reply #84 on: November 03, 2008, 06:14:52 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 06:03:51 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on November 03, 2008, 05:56:28 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:50:54 PM

Also if a zygote is not a human being what is it?   A frog?  A Cat?  An alien?

A fertilized cell, that if viable, could lead to the development of a human.  But it is still just a fertilized cell.  It is far from being an actual human being.

Well in most states the unborn have been given legal standing under the law, in many its considered 2 murder charges for someone who kills a woman who is pregnant.   So it seems that the law disagrees with you in most of the united states.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Fetal_homicide_in_the_United_States

And yet we were just talking about zygotes, which precedes the embryonic phase.  It isn't until the cell splits that the embryonic phase begins.  But I didn't realize we were all of a sudden discussing fetal homicide, which doesn't include abortion.  You're welcome to consider abortion to be "murder."  I do not.

I've found that I don't share your opinions on a number of topics, and this is yet another area in which we differ.
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« Reply #85 on: November 03, 2008, 06:15:42 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 02, 2008, 05:03:30 AM

Quote from: Glycerine on November 01, 2008, 09:28:52 PM

The fact of the matter is conception occurs between two people, and no matter what you believe it's really none of your business if you aren't one of those two people.
You're apparently not understanding the pro-life position. If some woman I don't know chooses to murder her 8 year old son, is that any of my business? Should I get involved or just let her and the father deal with it? Many pro-lifers think that is a human soul created upon conception - a soul just like an 8 year old's or a 42 year old's, or whatever.

Prove it. Prove that those 4 cells, or 38 cells, or 280 cells has a SOUL. Prove that YOU OR I have one. See, Brett, this is where you are wrong.

Tell me that killing a parasitic growth inside you isn't taking a life simply because it can grow. You take antibiotics to kill organisms within you; you use detergents and cleaning products to kill mites, lice, insects and a host of biological "life-forms". We kill things bigger than zygotes every day. Killed a mouse? Good for you! Did you gain anything by killing it? Did you eat it's meat, or skin it, or just simply remove it because it was a pestilence on your existance?

That a human soul, that some sort of development and experience has been attached that you are "killing" with abortion is, in my mind, the product of religious conditioning that has only been put in place to increase their population. It's a cult, regardless of those who view a dead jewish man as their saviour. I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but as an agnostic who is tired of the Beige, Light Beige or Tan options (Judaism, Christianity and Muslim), where's the logic? You throw out the idea that the zygote is a human being and cite grade 8 biology; the POTENTIAL is there. If the zygote were removed from the parasite host, can it survive?

I'm not saying that I don't respect your rights to believe what you want. The fact remains that no matter how much I want to believe that the ticket I hold is going to win the lotto on Wednesday, while the potential exists the proof isn't there and if someone steals it from me I can't sue them for the value of the jackpot.

Conversely, I disagree with using abortion as a method of birth control. There should be limits and controls and pattern behaviour that can then be assessed and treated; it is not the "easy way out" for a hedonistic lifestyle.

I feel that if *BOTH* parents consent to the abortion, who am I to say they can't terminate the potential life?

Quote
Gah. That *is* America. That is every country. Law is created from morality (and vice versa, somewhat). We believe murder is wrong, so we outlaw it. We believe stealing is wrong, so we outlaw it. Etc.

Law and government have historically been tied to religion, as both had wealth. Now we have business in there with their lobbying and subsidizing the candidates for kickbacks etc.

Religion and Money have NO PLACE in government. None. There is not ONE GOOD REASON to include them. If I'm not mistaken, your US constitution protects the individuals rights to worship however they see fit as long as it's done within the confines of the Laws of State, correct?

Why should any ONE religion be able to flex itself outside that same law? How should a religious view be allowed to affect decision-making within legal confines, as law is clearly a commonality across any religions present? Does absolution bypass legal punishment for wrongdoing? Is religious doctrine allowed to mete out justice in place of State law?

Business is in the same boat; there should never be any under-the-table deals. All contracts should be open competition etc.

Back on topic:

If the McCain government either A: follows in Bush's footsteps, or B: has the president die before he completes his term, you have a fanatic with a very limited scope of vision in power. That right there scares the dickens outta me (as a Canadian, no less).

Look at the softwood lumber fiasco where Bush Jr. has been jerking Canada's chain in our "trade agreements". It's preposterous, and there's a big part of me who hopes that we join the Europeans in their trade as soon as we can.
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Jaddison
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« Reply #86 on: November 03, 2008, 06:17:52 PM »

Since half of all zygotes are naturally aborted then using that argument God is okay with abortion
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brettmcd
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« Reply #87 on: November 03, 2008, 06:19:16 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on November 03, 2008, 06:14:52 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 06:03:51 PM

Quote from: PeteRock on November 03, 2008, 05:56:28 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:50:54 PM

Also if a zygote is not a human being what is it?   A frog?  A Cat?  An alien?

A fertilized cell, that if viable, could lead to the development of a human.  But it is still just a fertilized cell.  It is far from being an actual human being.

Well in most states the unborn have been given legal standing under the law, in many its considered 2 murder charges for someone who kills a woman who is pregnant.   So it seems that the law disagrees with you in most of the united states.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Fetal_homicide_in_the_United_States

And yet we were just talking about zygotes, which precedes the embryonic phase.  It isn't until the cell splits that the embryonic phase begins.  But I didn't realize we were all of a sudden discussing fetal homicide, which doesn't include abortion.  You're welcome to consider abortion to be "murder."  I do not.

I've found that I don't share your opinions on a number of topics, and this is yet another area in which we differ.

I am talking about abortion as a whole, which in the united states is still legal after the age of viability.   And in 24 of the 34 states that have fetal homicide laws, the age of the unborn child is not a factor to the law.    You are the one who wants to limit it to what makes you feel most comfortable discussing.

It makes no sense legally that a woman can kill her unborn child and there is no issue with that under the law, but if someone kills her while she is pregnant they get charged with a double murder.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #88 on: November 03, 2008, 06:21:56 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on November 03, 2008, 06:17:52 PM

Since half of all zygotes are naturally aborted then using that argument God is okay with abortion

Since I dont really believe in God I have no idea what such a mythical being would or would not be ok with.    But if you cant see the difference between something naturally happening, and someone making a conscious decision, well then im not sure how anything can be discussed.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #89 on: November 03, 2008, 06:45:52 PM »

Back to the original question:

If McCain somehow wins (which he won't without rampant election fraud), every Democrat in the country would act as a Presidential Secret Service agent.  They'd take a bullet for McCain so Palin doesn't occupy the Oval Office.  biggrin
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« Reply #90 on: November 03, 2008, 06:53:04 PM »

So Brett the morning after pill is a murder weapon in your eyes?

If killing a zygote is murder because it is a conscious choice how are you on war, the death penalty and other conscious choices to take life?

On another note, Sarah Palin as President or VP for that matter would certainly mean Emmys every year for the Daily Show and the Colbert Report at a minimum.
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« Reply #91 on: November 03, 2008, 07:08:01 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 03, 2008, 06:45:52 PM

Back to the original question:

Quote from: Purge on November 03, 2008, 06:15:42 PM

Back on topic:

There is no going back.
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« Reply #92 on: November 03, 2008, 07:13:26 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on November 03, 2008, 06:53:04 PM

So Brett the morning after pill is a murder weapon in your eyes?

Birth control pills would be as well, since one of their preventative measures is to reduce the chance of a zygote implanting on the uteral wall.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #93 on: November 03, 2008, 07:21:02 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:17:16 PM

Quote
Only if you can prove that the "victim" is in fact a "human being".  And so far your definition is based on your own belief structure, not on scientific evidence for proven sentience.  And I would expect your definition of "human being" to also fit your belief structure so as to ensure that your perspective is established, at least in your own mind. 

I base it completely on scientific evidence, human life begins at conception, that is a simple biological fact, nothing is going to change that, it has nothing to do with religion, a belief structure or anything like that, it comes from 8th grade biology.   

brettmcd, do you believe that pregnant women who choose to drink, smoke, or use drugs should be arrested and charged with a battery of child endangerment crimes?  How about women who are sexually active and therefore may not yet realize that they're pregnant?

If no, how do you reconcile that with your belief that human life begins at conception?

If yes, how do you reconcile that with your stated libertarian views?

-Autistic Angel
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brettmcd
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« Reply #94 on: November 03, 2008, 09:24:26 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 03, 2008, 07:21:02 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 05:17:16 PM

Quote
Only if you can prove that the "victim" is in fact a "human being".  And so far your definition is based on your own belief structure, not on scientific evidence for proven sentience.  And I would expect your definition of "human being" to also fit your belief structure so as to ensure that your perspective is established, at least in your own mind. 

I base it completely on scientific evidence, human life begins at conception, that is a simple biological fact, nothing is going to change that, it has nothing to do with religion, a belief structure or anything like that, it comes from 8th grade biology.   

brettmcd, do you believe that pregnant women who choose to drink, smoke, or use drugs should be arrested and charged with a battery of child endangerment crimes?  How about women who are sexually active and therefore may not yet realize that they're pregnant?

If no, how do you reconcile that with your belief that human life begins at conception?

If yes, how do you reconcile that with your stated libertarian views?

-Autistic Angel

My libertarian views fit exactly into my anti abortion views, as I do believe the government should stay out of peoples lives as much as possible unless they are harming or taking away the rights of someone else, which abortion most certainly does.

People can already be charged with child abuse for things they do that harm a child, unborn or otherwise, women who have abused drugs while pregnant and give birth to an addicted child can have the child taken away or be charged with a crime.    Same thing with fetal alcohol syndrome.

And again its not a belief, its a simple biological fact, nothing more then that.
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« Reply #95 on: November 03, 2008, 09:25:48 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on November 03, 2008, 07:13:26 PM

Quote from: Jaddison on November 03, 2008, 06:53:04 PM

So Brett the morning after pill is a murder weapon in your eyes?

Birth control pills would be as well, since one of their preventative measures is to reduce the chance of a zygote implanting on the uteral wall.

Yes on the morning after pill, no on birth control, as the way it is supposed to work is to prevent the egg from being released, not just by preventing implantaton.
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« Reply #96 on: November 03, 2008, 09:34:43 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:24:26 PM


And again its not a belief, its a simple biological fact, nothing more then that.

You stating it doesn't make it so.  Many scientists can't agree on when human life starts and I guarantee your 8th grade science education isn't going to be the defining word on the subject.
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« Reply #97 on: November 03, 2008, 09:39:16 PM »

I don't think it is a biological fact that a zygote is a person.  it is a potential.  The body self aborts half of all zygotes but you contend that a zygote needs human defense by rule of law so that a woman does not have the option to not see that zygote through to birth.

You want the law to get a zygote to birth but after that a libertarian would say government should stay out of peoples lives.  Outlawing abortion to the point where even the morning after pill is illegal means you are willing to interfere in a woman's life to any extent to defend that unborn life.  Then why would you not be in favor of very intrusive monitoring of families to ensure the children post birth were just as protected?  After for many years they are unable to care for themselves.  As it stands now child abuse or killing a child is only something you find out after it happened.  To protect those children to the same extent you want to protect a one day old zygote I would think you want the same sort of assurance for the child after birth.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #98 on: November 03, 2008, 09:42:44 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 03, 2008, 09:34:43 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:24:26 PM


And again its not a belief, its a simple biological fact, nothing more then that.

You stating it doesn't make it so.  Many scientists can't agree on when human life starts and I guarantee your 8th grade science education isn't going to be the defining word on the subject.

No I think that its pretty much an accepted fact that human life begins at conception biologically, there are many other issues people do disagree with about when that human life deserves any protections from the law or otherwise, but when human life begins is pretty easy to deliniate.  

And ive had far more then an 8th grade science education, thats just the first year I took an actual biology class when it was given at my school, so keep your insults about my intelligence to yourself, they have no place here.
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« Reply #99 on: November 03, 2008, 09:45:42 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:25:48 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on November 03, 2008, 07:13:26 PM

Quote from: Jaddison on November 03, 2008, 06:53:04 PM

So Brett the morning after pill is a murder weapon in your eyes?

Birth control pills would be as well, since one of their preventative measures is to reduce the chance of a zygote implanting on the uteral wall.

Yes on the morning after pill, no on birth control, as the way it is supposed to work is to prevent the egg from being released, not just by preventing implantaton.

Here is a list of birth control pills from drugs.com that make it harder for a fertilized egg to attach to the uterus, in addition to trying to prevent egg release:

Apri
Aranelle
Aviane
Balziva
Brevicon
Cryselle
Cyclessa
Desogen

Whew! This is taking forever.  Let me instead list the ones I spotted that don't try to stop fertilized eggs from attaching to the uteral lining:

[this space intentionally left blank]

Now, I just scanned the rest of the list, but all the rest of the alphabet of oral contraceptives seemed to have the same active ingredients as the eight I listed above.
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« Reply #100 on: November 03, 2008, 09:51:14 PM »

Regardless of whether brettmcd's simplistic assertion is correct or not, there's one place in the country that's about to decide whether a fertilized egg is a "person" constitutionally.

And guess what?
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« Reply #101 on: November 03, 2008, 09:53:01 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:42:44 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 03, 2008, 09:34:43 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:24:26 PM


And again its not a belief, its a simple biological fact, nothing more then that.

You stating it doesn't make it so.  Many scientists can't agree on when human life starts and I guarantee your 8th grade science education isn't going to be the defining word on the subject.

No I think that its pretty much an accepted fact that human life begins at conception biologically, there are many other issues people do disagree with about when that human life deserves any protections from the law or otherwise, but when human life begins is pretty easy to deliniate.  

And ive had far more then an 8th grade science education, thats just the first year I took an actual biology class when it was given at my school, so keep your insults about my intelligence to yourself, they have no place here.

Now we're into the typical Brett debate pattern.

Brett: "The sky is red.  It's a fact."
Anyone else: "Uh, no, it's not."
Brett:  "Yes, it is.  I learned it on the back of a matchbook."
Anyone else:  "Uh, no, it's not.  It's comprised of a spectrum of light...yadda..."
Brett:  "It's a fact.  So there!"
Anyone else:  "No, it's not.  Show me where it's a fact."
Brett:  "It's a fact."
Anyone else:  "No, it's not.  And the back of a matchbook isn't a reliable source."
Brett:  "IT IS A FACT!!!!!  Stop insulting me!"
Anyone else:  " Roll Eyes"

Repeat for the next 20 posts.

So, I'm now obligated to post the following:   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #102 on: November 03, 2008, 09:57:56 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:42:44 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 03, 2008, 09:34:43 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 09:24:26 PM


And again its not a belief, its a simple biological fact, nothing more then that.

You stating it doesn't make it so.  Many scientists can't agree on when human life starts and I guarantee your 8th grade science education isn't going to be the defining word on the subject.

No I think that its pretty much an accepted fact that human life begins at conception biologically, there are many other issues people do disagree with about when that human life deserves any protections from the law or otherwise, but when human life begins is pretty easy to deliniate.

It is easy to determine when the beginning stages of human life commence.  However, the beginning of pregnancy != human life.  It is merely the beginning steps in the eventual development of a human being.  But there are a number of steps beyond conception before you have an actual human to provide legal protection.  Conception does not automatically equal "human being."  A fertilized egg is not a human.  It is merely a fertilized egg.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #103 on: November 03, 2008, 10:00:50 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on November 03, 2008, 09:51:14 PM

Regardless of whether brettmcd's simplistic assertion is correct or not, there's one place in the country that's about to decide whether a fertilized egg is a "person" constitutionally.

And guess what?

And yet Colorado already has on file a law that says if you kill an pregnant mother you can be charged with 2 counts of murder.   So guess what, they already do give the unborn legal status there.
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« Reply #104 on: November 03, 2008, 10:15:03 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 10:00:50 PM

And yet Colorado already has on file a law that says if you kill an pregnant mother you can be charged with 2 counts of murder.   So guess what, they already do give the unborn legal status there.

No, they don't.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #105 on: November 03, 2008, 10:21:09 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on November 03, 2008, 10:15:03 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 03, 2008, 10:00:50 PM

And yet Colorado already has on file a law that says if you kill an pregnant mother you can be charged with 2 counts of murder.   So guess what, they already do give the unborn legal status there.

No, they don't.

It seems you are correct, I was going by the wikipedia article and map that I posted earlier, they are one of only 12 states that does not.    My apologies for the error, I was only going by the information I had.
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« Reply #106 on: November 03, 2008, 10:26:53 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 03, 2008, 09:53:01 PM

Now we're into the typical Brett debate pattern.
There is no need for this. brettmcd is arguing his point without insulting people, why can you not return the sentiment?
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« Reply #107 on: November 04, 2008, 02:10:12 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 03, 2008, 10:26:53 PM

There is no need for this. brettmcd is arguing his point without insulting people, why can you not return the sentiment?

I'll assume you're using the term 'arguing' very loosely.
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« Reply #108 on: November 04, 2008, 02:26:56 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 03, 2008, 10:26:53 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 03, 2008, 09:53:01 PM

Now we're into the typical Brett debate pattern.
There is no need for this. brettmcd is arguing his point without insulting people, why can you not return the sentiment?

While I support the sentiment that he should not be attacked, his comment about learning this in eighth grade was in the same vein.

The response to it with "I guarantee your 8th grade science education isn't going to be the defining word on the subject." didn't seem to be a personal attack; it was speaking to the level brought forth. After re-reading it I could see how Brett took it personally.

I think it's pretty important for people to remember here that being nasty isn't going to convince anyone else about your viewpoint, neither is belittling others. Be clever, be creative, and let's have a clean match on reds vs. blues, mmmkay? slywink

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« Reply #109 on: November 04, 2008, 04:20:32 AM »

Quote from: Purge on November 04, 2008, 02:26:56 AM

...belittling others.

As an American of slightly above average height, I'm tired of all these foreign midgets running amok.
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« Reply #110 on: November 04, 2008, 05:07:37 AM »

Quote from: Jeff Jones on November 04, 2008, 02:10:12 AM

I'll assume you're using the term 'arguing' very loosely.
No, I am not. Very few people here will ever know what it is like to be one arguing against several, with no backup, no one supporting you. It's not easy. It takes guts, and I admire brettmcd for making his argument. I don't agree that life starts at conception, but I respect his view.
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« Reply #111 on: November 04, 2008, 05:36:12 AM »

Just pointing out that there are Christians who take a much more moderate approach to the abortion issue.

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If we as followers of Christ truly believed in the agenda of life, why have we not taken seriously the proven correlation between poverty and increased abortion rates?  Why have we not spoken out on supportive health care for women and children? Why have we not cried out about preventative education to minimize unplanned pregnancies that frequently lead to termination? And why, oh why, do we not see war, torture, creation care, or the death penalty also as fundamental issues of life?

The question is, will evangelicals expand their understanding of social influences and actually work towards healing the causes, or just wait around to outlaw the symptom?

Fundamentalists and/or evangelicals != "all Christians"
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« Reply #112 on: November 04, 2008, 12:13:10 PM »

Probably the most "freaky" part about Freakanomics was his argument that the beginning of the large drop in the US crime rate began about 12 or 13 years after after Roe v. Wade and he showed how it was R v W that was the major cause not any of the other causes that have been cited to pour money back into them.

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« Reply #113 on: November 04, 2008, 02:09:36 PM »

I think it should also be pointed out that when someone kills a child in someone elses womb (and potentially the mother for a double-murder) they are an outside influence and had the parent's will be followed, that child should have been born (and the rate of success beyond the first trimester is significant given the parent's willingness to conceive).

So really abortion != murder, as the unborn child is not an entity. If you destroy or harm the parasite host and interrupt the growth of said child you can then be held accountable.
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« Reply #114 on: November 04, 2008, 03:52:45 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 04, 2008, 05:07:37 AM

Quote from: Jeff Jones on November 04, 2008, 02:10:12 AM

I'll assume you're using the term 'arguing' very loosely.
No, I am not. Very few people here will ever know what it is like to be one arguing against several, with no backup, no one supporting you. It's not easy. It takes guts, and I admire brettmcd for making his argument. I don't agree that life starts at conception, but I respect his view.

Just want to note that I've been in his position, and it wasn't on an internet message board. It was in my religious community. After enough patronizing, mocking attitude thrown my way for maintaining my personal beliefs in the face of others with different ones, and them behaving as though their beliefs were sanctioned by the Almighty himself while mine were wrong, I was all but driven out. I felt they were definitely not espousing the kind of attitudes that Jesus would.

THAT takes guts. Speaking your mind on an internet message board in the face of opposition online? Not really so much, though I'm happy he's willing to stick to his beliefs and speak his mind. That's what we're all supposed to be able to do, whether we agree with one another or not. icon_biggrin
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« Reply #115 on: November 04, 2008, 06:06:31 PM »

I thought of this thread when I stumbled across Cecil Adams's column this morning: When Does Human Life Begin? For the lazy, Cecil concludes:

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1. Human life begins at conception.

2. Big deal.

The rest of his column is a bit more nuanced than that. It's a fun read.
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