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Author Topic: Women in combat  (Read 8585 times)
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2015, 01:20:22 PM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on July 23, 2015, 09:26:34 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on January 27, 2013, 06:15:52 PM

Emancipation, women's suffrage, desegregation, the Civil Rights Act, anti-semitism, gender discrimination, the Americans With Disabilities Act, sexual harassment law, hate crime legislation, the Fair Pay Act, gay rights -- every time America raises the idea of expanding the rights and protections for the voiceless members of society, the Conservative movement has been there to represent the losing side of history.  Many of the popular ones still do it: Ann Coulter will happily explain how women lack the intellectual capacity to responsibly vote, both Senators Paul are on record opposing the Civil Rights Act, and Rush Limbaugh's daily show has a daily three-hour show dedicated to telling "real Americans" how their moral Christian lifestyles are being endangered by the blacks, the feminists, and the gays.

-Autistic Angel

"Losing side of history" ?  Do you mean American history?


Yes.  The entire paragraph is discussing elements of the Civil Rights movement in the United States, but I've also gone ahead and boldfaced the part from your quote where that's precisely what I say.


Quote
You must absolutely detest Islam, along with a variety of other cultures and institutions around the globe.


Uh-huh.

Out of curiosity, is it my support for Civil Rights in America in general, or my specific support for allowing women to pursue military combat roles that you've...decoded as "anti-Islam?"

-Autistic Angel
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Dante Rising
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« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2015, 12:29:56 AM »

My meaning was clear. You've limited the scope of your rhetoric to the tyranny of the conservative movement, but I've not seen you show the same passion toward other movements that share some of the same apparent perspectives on a much grander, and far more violent scale. As one example, Islam in general, and radical Islam in particular, fall squarely into that category. Angst toward Rush Limbaugh but not Anjem Choudary or Abu Qatada? All three are conservatives by your definition.

I've not engaged in any far reaching discussions with you, so perhaps you limit your political leanings to the problems at home. I also don't often frequent the political portion of the forums, so perhaps I am unaware of your other discussions about such topics. But if one views history on a global scale, America and Western civilization are falling further into marginalization.

And let's not be too revisionist in our history of the country. Conservatism, which more closely aligns with Republicanism, was not on the wrong side of Emancipation.  Abraham Lincoln was a Republican president who issued the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War.  Furthermore, the 13th Amendment emancipating the slaves was passed with 100 percent of Republicans (88 of 88 in the House, 30 of 30 in the Senate) voting for it. Only 23 percent of Democrats (16 of 66 in the House, 3 of 8 in the Senate) voted for it. And while I will agree that Abraham Lincoln would be considered a moderate or liberal Republican by today's definition, a large number of the Republicans that voted YES we're quite conservative.

You may also wish to look more closely at the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the voting record, and some of the conservatives and conservative philosophies involved in that.

I truly wish I had more time for discussions such as these, but I simply lack the time. Any movement can be painted with a broad brush. Conservatism as a movement is far more multi-faceted than the one of which you speak. I hold this perspective to be equally truthful of the Democratic Party, Liberalism, Libertarians, etc.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 02:34:49 AM by Dante Rising » Logged
Autistic Angel
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« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2015, 09:06:38 PM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on July 24, 2015, 12:29:56 AM

You've limited the scope of your rhetoric to the tyranny of the conservative movement, but I've not seen you show the same passion toward other movements that share some of the same apparent perspectives on a much grander, and far more violent scale. As one example, Islam in general, and radical Islam in particular, fall squarely into that category. Angst toward Rush Limbaugh but not Anjem Choudary or Abu Qatada? All three are conservatives by your definition.


The Rush Limbaugh Show is the highest rated radio talk show in the nation.  It airs on hundreds of radio stations, as well as the Armed Forces Radio Network which is broadcast to military personnel around the world, and is tremendously influential over Conservative politics in this country.  Since 2009, RNC Chairman Michael Steele, Republican Governor Mark Sandford, Representative Phil Gringey, and Representative Darrell Issa have all appeared live on his show, while serving in those offices, to ask forgiveness from him and his audience for daring to criticize his behavior.  As George Will observed in 2012, "[House Speaker John] Boehner comes out and says Rush's language was inappropriate. Using the salad fork for your entrée, that's inappropriate. Not this stuff.  And it was depressing because what it indicates is that the Republican leaders are afraid of Rush Limbaugh. They want to bomb Iran, but they're afraid of Rush Limbaugh."

The specific "inappropriate language" referenced there involved Rush Limbaugh calling graduate student Sandra Fluke a "slut" and "prostitute" after she testified about importance of access to the birth control pill for women.  He also frequently refers to women he does not like as "feminazis," claims the feminist movement exists solely to validate ugly women, and mocks the idea that women deserve equal pay because of all the maternity leave they get to take.

Guess how he talks about women in the military.

Quote from: Rush Limbaugh, Jan 25, 2013
So if we have women in combat, there's an easy way to do it. Now, here's what we know. We know that women who live together, or who are housed together -- in dormitories, for example, in sororities -- after a certain passage of time... This is one of the marvels of creation. No one can explain it, but it happens.

Menstrual cycles happen to synchronize.

You can get mad at me all you want for saying it, but it happens to be true. It's not a put-down, and it's not taking away from the individuality of any women or woman. It just happens. So what we do is we create a force. We call it the All-American First Cavalry Amazon Battalion, and we segregate women enough in various bases and barracks so that you have synchronized menstrual cycles.

They're timed in such a way that on any day of the year, you are guaranteed to have a fighting female force all in PMS, all during premenstrual syndrome. You can do it because they synchronize the cycles. So you house them together. It wouldn't take much of a computer program to figure this out. No matter when you need them, you're always going to have a combat-ready battalion of women on PMS. Pregnancy problem solved -- and, and they're pretty damn good during combat at the same time.

Talk to any man about it. I'm not being sexist here. We're just dealing with reality.


I reference Rush Limbaugh in a conversation about Women In Combat thread because he is tremendously influential on right-wing politics in this country and he denigrates women as weak, emotionally compromised baby incubators at every opportunity.

I do not reference Abu Qatada or Anjem Choudary because I have absolutely no idea what they have to do with this topic or what sort of sway you think they hold over the American political process.  We might as well discuss the civil rights opinions of Egon Spangler and Darkwing Duck.


Quote from: Dante Rising on July 24, 2015, 12:29:56 AM

And let's not be too revisionist in our history of the country. Conservatism, which more closely aligns with Republicanism, was not on the wrong side of Emancipation.  Abraham Lincoln was a Republican president who issued the Emancipation Proclamation during the Civil War.  Furthermore, the 13th Amendment emancipating the slaves was passed with 100 percent of Republicans (88 of 88 in the House, 30 of 30 in the Senate) voting for it. Only 23 percent of Democrats (16 of 66 in the House, 3 of 8 in the Senate) voted for it. And while I will agree that Abraham Lincoln would be considered a moderate or liberal Republican by today's definition, a large number of the Republicans that voted YES we're quite conservative.

You may also wish to look more closely at the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the voting record, and some of the conservatives and conservative philosophies involved in that.


Does anyone else want to walk Dante Rising through the fact that the Republican and Democratic parties swapped social ideologies midway through the 20th century, beginning with the New Deal and culminating with the Civil Rights Act?  He seems reasonable and earnest enough to be worth the effort but I'm trying to finish off a couple daily quests before tonight.

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: July 24, 2015, 11:13:39 PM by Autistic Angel » Logged
Ironrod
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« Reply #83 on: July 25, 2015, 02:44:35 AM »

Not in detail, no, but I'll back you up generally. The Solid South was solidly Democratic until the Johnson administration handed it over to the Republicans with the Civil Rights Act. (Just as an aside, I had the pleasure of seeing Bryan Cranston in All the Way last year; that play deals directly with this subject and is apparently going to be an HBO movie.) That's when the parties realigned into their present forms.

I'm skeptical that it even makes sense to apply conservative/liberal labels to Lincoln's time, but you'd have to go through some gyrations to classify Lincoln as a conservative.
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Dante Rising
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« Reply #84 on: July 25, 2015, 02:18:08 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on July 24, 2015, 09:06:38 PM

Does anyone else want to walk Dante Rising through the fact that the Republican and Democratic parties swapped social ideologies midway through the 20th century, beginning with the New Deal and culminating with the Civil Rights Act?  He seems reasonable and earnest enough to be worth the effort but I'm trying to finish off a couple daily quests before tonight.
-Autistic Angel

Ha! This is why I love being a gamer. It reminds me of the time I was discussing politics with a friend while fighting a very difficult boss in Dark Souls. In frustration I eventually turned to him and said, pointed to the TV and said, "Mike, can this discussion wait until tomorrow? I'm getting dismantled over here..."

I'm well aware of the changing landscapes of the of the parties, then and more recently. I've had that discussion all the way through how Regan could not lead the modern GOP and Kennedy could not lead the modern Democratic party, despite the parties hypocritically using both men as billboards to forward their political desires. But not the governing philosophies, of course.

My point regarding the Republican voting record was to drill further into the history of those men, as many of them were quite conservative in philosophy. It was not directed strictly to Republican/Democratic governance of the time. And please note I'm referring to the more progressive American conservatism, obviously not the same thing as European conservatism, which was more concerned with aristocracy, restoring pre-revolution tradition almost a century later, and a greater focus or hierarchical rule. (Or, of course, you may subscribe to the meanderings of Amrose Bierce, who defined conservatism as “a person who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.” smile  )

And regarding Rush, I view him through the same prism as Mike Malloy, who has stated wonderful things such as:

“These teabag bastards, who by the way, I just wish they would all go away, or like in Passover, I just wish there was an angel of the Lord that would pass over, instead of killing the first born in all the households of Egypt, just wipe out all the teabaggers. Just, you know, the terrible swift sword, just (Malloy emulates sound of sword cutting repeatedly through the air) lop their heads off.”

-or-

"You're average Republican wants slaves back in the cotton fields, and women stricken of their right to vote." He then mildly commented that only one half of that statement was true, but he would let his audience decide which part was which.


I periodically listen to Rush's rhetoric simply to marvel at how one man has been given so much power by both his fans and his enemies. And he actually does makes sense at times...until he jumps the shark. But I suppose to be equitable I can say that of Mike Malloy and Michael Moore also.

As I mentioned earlier, I wish I had more time for these conversations. My point of all of these long-winded posts was just this- Conservatism is not one ideology, one group of talking heads, or one monolithic movement. I become frustrated when people point a finger at Rush and assume he IS the Conservative movement. (And I'm not suggesting Autistic Angel was defining it as such, but it seemed to be moving in that direction from an earlier post.)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 03:08:13 PM by Dante Rising » Logged
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« Reply #85 on: July 28, 2015, 07:29:10 AM »

 nod
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« Reply #86 on: July 28, 2015, 12:09:16 PM »

SCIENCE! Holy crap! A civil, well-reasoned discussion on politics... Eco needs to quit more often! biggrin
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« Reply #87 on: August 18, 2015, 12:23:26 PM »

CNN

Quote
For the first time in history, two women have completed the vigorous training curriculum and will graduate from Army Ranger School on Friday.

However, the Pentagon isn't expected to make final decisions about exactly what combat roles women will be allowed to fulfill until later this year.

Quote from: Pentagon press release
Nineteen women and 381 men started Ranger Class 06-15 on April 20, 2015. Eight women successfully completed RAP week; however, all were recycled into Ranger Class 07-15 as Darby inserts for a second attempt at patrolling. After the second Darby Phase attempt, five were dropped from the course and three were given a Day one recycle into Ranger Class 08-15, starting the course again on June 21, 2015. These three women successfully met the standards of the Benning Phase and moved on to the Mountain Phase on July 10, 2015. All three women passed the knot test, military mountaineering skills assessment, the foot movement up Mount Yonah, and were given opportunities to lead patrols. One woman recycled into Ranger Class 09-15 to start the Mountain Phase again on Aug. 9, 2015. Two women received a passing grade in the mountains during platoon level combat patrols and moved on to the Swamp Phase on Aug. 1, 2015. The two women also met the standards of the Swamp Phase, proficiently leading waterborne platoon level combat patrols and will earn the Ranger Tab on Aug. 21, 2015.
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« Reply #88 on: September 09, 2015, 03:26:53 PM »

Having served for years in a mobile 155mm self-propelled Howitzer, I don't believe for a second a woman could do that job.

Women in Combat is a very, very bad idea. There is a natural balance to things. I feel like this rocks that boat too much.

We had gals in rear-eshelon they were great. Put a rifle in their hands and they giggle, bless their little cotton socks, aww.

I just think it goes against what we know of men and women. The jealousy's , the distraction, the down time in bivowac.

Come on folks, think about your sweetie in olive-drab, totting an Assault rifle, with a 50lb pack on her back.

Just doesn't make sense.

But not much these days does to me.
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« Reply #89 on: September 09, 2015, 04:40:17 PM »

[sarcasm]

I believe all this crap started when we gave dames the right to vote!  

[/sarcasm]

I'm fine with the belief that woman may not be physically equipped for some things.  That I can understand.  But then you had to go and ruin your assertions with sexist drivel.  You may as well have said all women should remain pregnant, barefoot and in the kitchen.  When your beliefs are essentially the same as Muslim fundamentalists, it's time to rethink things.   icon_wink
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« Reply #90 on: September 09, 2015, 04:41:02 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on September 09, 2015, 03:26:53 PM

Put a rifle in their hands and they giggle, bless their little cotton socks, aww.

I just think it goes against what we know of men and women. The jealousy's , the distraction, the down time in bivowac.


There's not a  Roll Eyes big enough for this bullshit.

Quote
Come on folks, think about your sweetie in olive-drab, totting an Assault rifle, with a 50lb pack on her back.

The thought is terrifying, mostly because I'm pretty sure she could kick most of our asses.
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« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2015, 05:07:36 PM »

The bottom line is that if a man or women desires to be in a combat MOS or go for that elite tab, they will take the training seriously or fail.
Just for some context, I was infantry for 3 years before I passed the force recon course and I failed twice before I finally succeeded.  At only 135 lbs I struggled and was only able to succeed gaining 15 lbs of muscle.  I can only imagine the challenge a female will go through doing the same thing I did.

To be fair Arclight, I know that you served in a "different" time, as did I. But you know that the women that did giggle are just POGs and  probably never hold a rifle until they have to re-qual at the range.  Men are just as guilty doing that as well, and i can't blame them. Those rear echelon types have a different job and role.  The women that desire to become Rangers or any other elite force WILL take this shit seriously.
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Lee
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« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2015, 07:16:24 PM »

Quote from: USMC Kato on September 09, 2015, 05:07:36 PM

To be fair Arclight, I know that you served in a "different" time, as did I. But you know that the women that did giggle are just POGs and  probably never hold a rifle until they have to re-qual at the range.  Men are just as guilty doing that as well, and i can't blame them. Those rear echelon types have a different job and role.  The women that desire to become Rangers or any other elite force WILL take this shit seriously.

Yikes Kato, I served about the same time you did and don't consider it a different time!

I can't speak to combat because I was in the AF noncombat job, but in jobs that I had that required lots lot grunt work or weapons, the majority of the women were not going to give anyone a chance to say they couldn't hack it, they made sure of it. Sure there were women who couldn't do everything thrown at them, but there were just as many guys who couldn't either.

Honestly, Arclight's might be ok if he was 90 and that was the culture, but it honestly it isn't deserving of a reply.
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« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2015, 07:30:51 PM »

Quote from: Lee on September 09, 2015, 07:16:24 PM

Quote from: USMC Kato on September 09, 2015, 05:07:36 PM

To be fair Arclight, I know that you served in a "different" time, as did I. But you know that the women that did giggle are just POGs and  probably never hold a rifle until they have to re-qual at the range.  Men are just as guilty doing that as well, and i can't blame them. Those rear echelon types have a different job and role.  The women that desire to become Rangers or any other elite force WILL take this shit seriously.

Yikes Kato, I served about the same time you did and don't consider it a different time!

I can't speak to combat because I was in the AF noncombat job, but in jobs that I had that required lots lot grunt work or weapons, the majority of the women were not going to give anyone a chance to say they couldn't hack it, they made sure of it. Sure there were women who couldn't do everything thrown at them, but there were just as many guys who couldn't either.

Honestly, Arclight's might be ok if he was 90 and that was the culture, but it honestly it isn't deserving of a reply.

Yeah yeah you're right. It's just that in my final years instructing Rangers, and even now teaching military personnel combatives, these new active duty guys/gals are a truly a different kind of animal slywink
I won't elaborate at this time, but maybe later
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« Reply #94 on: September 11, 2015, 12:08:36 PM »

Study finds all male units more effective than units with females.
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« Reply #95 on: September 11, 2015, 03:23:59 PM »

Quote from: ATB on September 11, 2015, 12:08:36 PM

Study finds all male units more effective than units with females.

Great read! I suspect those percentages would be a lot closer together if the physical assessment requirements for women are the same as men during the screening process. That is....qualifying to just get into Marine Corps Bootcamp, to graduate boot camp, and especially to graduate from School of Infantry (6 months of hard training) that the men already do.
This all starts at the very beginning and while most women that go through the same process as their male counterparts would fail, the women that pass would most likely succeed in a line unit.
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« Reply #96 on: September 12, 2015, 01:13:26 AM »

It's definitely a different time now.  I had a friend go through training a couple years ago and he was facebooking throughout.  ridiculous
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« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2015, 01:55:19 AM »

Listened to the news on NPR and the one question I had was answered from the link. Namely were they underperforming because of lack of ability or because their male counterparts felt, even if not true, like that had to help. Also like a couple quotes at the end saying they are not closing the book on having women serve as infantry. Need more time and training. Think that new tech will also be something that helps out.
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« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2015, 02:15:34 AM »

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on September 13, 2015, 01:55:19 AM

Listened to the news on NPR and the one question I had was answered from the link. Namely were they underperforming because of lack of ability or because their male counterparts felt, even if not true, like that had to help. Also like a couple quotes at the end saying they are not closing the book on having women serve as infantry. Need more time and training. Think that new tech will also be something that helps out.

I'll have to go ahead and try to find that NPR segment as I find this subject a fascinating debate.

Another small thing I wanted to add. My fellow veterans here at GT know that personnel in a unit (platoon/squad/fire team) must not only know their own job, but be proficient below and above their current role in the team.

I used to think that the Marines were a bit cruel assigning me a heavy gunner MOS. I competed boot camp weighing 135 lbs, then graduates school of infantry 6 months later at 150lbs. It is undoubtedly the heaviest and most strenuous load to carry in light infantry. The wisdom is that I would eventually become strong enough to be effective even with my smaller frame. 
I understand that the Marine Corps data was taken over a year, I just want to know what kind of preparation these female Marines had before throwing them into a line unit
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« Reply #99 on: September 13, 2015, 02:26:03 AM »

Quote from: USMC Kato on September 13, 2015, 02:15:34 AM


My fellow veterans here at GT know that personnel in a unit (platoon/squad/fire team) must not only know their own job, but be proficient below and above their current role in the team.

Actually for us AF maintenance guys, we know our own job and let the other guy do their own job. icon_biggrin

Off topic, but the college I go to is on a Navy port(?) and they have a flyer up for a job in which the person "...must be familiar with the military (Army, Navy, Marines, C.G)..." They literally didn't include the AF, but list the Coast Guard?!
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« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2015, 04:40:22 PM »

Quote from: USMC Kato on September 13, 2015, 02:15:34 AM


I'll have to go ahead and try to find that NPR segment as I find this subject a fascinating debate.

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/11/439381263/all-male-combat-units-performed-better-than-mixed-units-study-concludes
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« Reply #101 on: December 03, 2015, 07:52:37 PM »

Open the gates!

Quote
Defense Secretary Ashton B. Carter said Thursday that he is opening all jobs in combat units to women, a landmark decision that ends a three-year period of research with a number of firsts for female service members and bitter debate at times about how women should be integrated.

The decision opens the military’s most elite units to women who can meet the rigorous requirements for the positions for the first time, including in the Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces and other Special Operations Units. It also opens the Marine Corps infantry, a battle-hardened force that many service officials had openly advocated keeping closed to female service members.

“There will be no exceptions,” Carter said. “This means that, as long as they qualify and meet the standards, women will now be able to contribute to our mission in ways they could not before.”
...
The services will have 30 days to provide plans to Carter on how they will implement the policy change, he said. By law, the military also must notify Congress formally and wait that long before making any changes.
...
About 220,000 jobs and 10 percent of the military remained closed to women before Tuesday’s announcement, Carter said. Another 110,000 jobs in careers like artillery officer were opened in a series of decisions since 2013.
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« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2015, 06:58:54 PM »

I'm happy for this as long as the baseline requirements are not lowered to meet any silly quotas.
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« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2016, 04:19:13 PM »

Senate approves the draft

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The Senate overwhelmingly passed a $602 billion defense bill Tuesday that included an amendment that would require women to register for the draft -- also known as the selective service -- for the first time in history.

The National Defense Authorization Act passed 85-13, although some Republican senators protested against the inclusion of the provision pertaining to women and the draft.

Sen. Ted Cruz, R-Texas, slammed the measure last week during a Senate session, calling it "a radical departure" from American history.

"The idea that we should forcibly conscript young girls into combat to my mind makes little or no sense," he said.

But the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, rebuked Cruz's stance, calling including women in the draft "simply fair" now that the Pentagon has opened all military roles to women.

"Every uniform leader of the United States military seemed to have a different opinion from the senator from Texas, whose military background is not extensive," McCain said.
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« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2016, 03:02:29 AM »

Ermahgerd, a new post in P&R! I feel compelled to say something, even if it's st00pid.

So how about this: If you think you're ever going to draft the marshmallow generation, you have another think coming.
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« Reply #105 on: June 19, 2016, 01:32:33 AM »

I like the Starship Troopers way of doing things.  You can only vote if you serve
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« Reply #106 on: June 19, 2016, 02:01:25 AM »

If everyone in this country had to serve at some point (South Korea, Thailand, Venezuela, etc) I believe we would be a lot more hesitant to have boots on ground
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PSN ID: USMC_Kato
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Harkonis
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« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2016, 03:47:44 AM »

vote yes for jetpacks!
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USMC Kato
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« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2016, 03:49:43 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on June 20, 2016, 03:47:44 AM

vote yes for jetpacks!

I would like to know more!
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Semper Fidelis

Gamertag: USMC Kato
PSN ID: USMC_Kato
Gamecenter ID: USMC Kato
Wii U Nintendo ID: USMC_Kato
Isgrimnur
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« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2016, 02:53:16 PM »

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Hadron Smasher on 360; IsgrimnurTTU on PS3
kitsnow
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« Reply #110 on: July 06, 2016, 02:56:30 PM »

Good to see the equality!
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