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Author Topic: This country has gone insane  (Read 1765 times)
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Andrew Wonser
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2016, 11:04:00 PM »

I know I'm repeating myself here but I might be fine to keep the electoral if it was modified to balance all the states and reward those whose voters are more active.

So say all states are eligible to receive 10 votes but only if the percentage of eligible voters who also voted in every ballot from the previous Presidential up to the next is 90%. Then 80 for 9 and so on till anything below 15 will get 1. Reward the states that have the most turnout. Make it a point of pride to be a state that votes.

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In no way would the lower population states prefer to see the system change to a popular vote system no matter how logical or sensible it may seem.
That just baffles me. They would rather be a place of inconsequence than one where every vote matters? Ugh
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2016, 11:19:25 PM »

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on November 11, 2016, 11:04:00 PM

So say all states are eligible to receive 10 votes but only if the percentage of eligible voters who also voted in every ballot from the previous Presidential up to the next is 90%. Then 80 for 9 and so on till anything below 15 will get 1. Reward the states that have the most turnout. Make it a point of pride to be a state that votes.

There would be lots of systemic work that would need to be done (especially around voting access for lower income and minority voters) before we could or should even start thinking about implementing that sort of system.
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2016, 01:11:27 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on November 11, 2016, 11:19:25 PM

Quote from: Andrew Wonser on November 11, 2016, 11:04:00 PM

So say all states are eligible to receive 10 votes but only if the percentage of eligible voters who also voted in every ballot from the previous Presidential up to the next is 90%. Then 80 for 9 and so on till anything below 15 will get 1. Reward the states that have the most turnout. Make it a point of pride to be a state that votes.

There would be lots of systemic work that would need to be done (especially around voting access for lower income and minority voters) before we could or should even start thinking about implementing that sort of system.

That's another thing I've wondered. Why do not more states adopt mail in/drop off ballots? It seems like that would solve the issue of those that might not be able to make the polls. No more having to wait in line on a single day. I dropped mine off the Thursday prior but I could have done it the week before that even. Also I just checked and even if you are homeless or without mail delivery you can still vote. They only require an address to deliver the ballot which can be the county clerks office and you just pick it up.
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2016, 04:32:58 AM »

Let's take a look at what a potential Trump cabinet might look like

Sarah Palin as Secretary of the Interior
Joe Arpaio as Director of Homeland Security
Rudy Giuliani as Attorney General
Newt Gingrich as Sec of State

Two thoughts:
1.  Jesus Christ...someone please make this nightmare stop. This is utterly horrifying.
2.  I thought the whole appeal of Trump was that he was going to "drain the swamp".  He would bring in people who aren't career politicians to run government "like a business".  I guess not?
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2016, 06:30:44 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on November 11, 2016, 06:26:59 PM

People aren't offended, they're fucking scared.  Mainly because we're seeing shit like this done while invoking the name of the newly elected President.  It becomes incumbent on us to call this out as unacceptable at every single turn, and let people know that we are willing to stand up for, support, and protect them at all costs.


This. There is very real reason for certain groups to be scared, because of what Trump has proposed and what he stands for, giving rise to and legitimacy for hate crimes. There are hate groups celebrating his victory. There are people fearing their lives, who feel they have to hide who they are. This goes beyond simple politics and into the realm of civil rights and liberties. It's also why people are in mourning. There's a great sadness over what occurred that goes beyond political affiliations.
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2016, 04:16:36 AM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on November 09, 2016, 03:14:45 PM

If we are "past the point of no return on global warming" (as you say) then why would anything Trump does matter?

We are past the point of no return insofar as it is no longer possible to hold warming to the agreed-upon 2 degree safe maximum. We urgently need to prevent warming from going much higher than that, and we need to plan for the disruptions that are inevitably coming. To take just one implication: Whether the oceans rise another 2.5 feet by 2100 (already baked in) or another 23 feet (worst case, Greenland melts) is rather important.

Quote from: Gratch on November 09, 2016, 09:37:09 PM

this isn't the place I typically come to for nuanced political discussion.

Yeah, this. I just felt compelled to clarify that one point.
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« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2016, 06:40:07 PM »

Quote from: Dante Rising on November 09, 2016, 02:06:35 PM

The American people elected the lesser of the two evils. It is as simple as that. The overly dramatic teeth gnashing, the "America is DOOMED" rhetoric, have no place in calm discourse. The Republicans "survived" 8 years of Obama. The Democrats will "survive" 4 or 8 years of Trump. There is no apocalypse. Starbucks is still handing out coffee, Comcast still has sh!tty customer service, and your dog is still happy to see you when you walk in the door. The founding fathers did an admirable job creating a government of checks and balances. Have faith in their vision.

My wife sees patients who have Obamacare. They are worried that they will lose it and be unable to get the healthcare they need. She's in neurology so we're talking major medical problems. She and I are worried for them.

We use a housecleaning service once a month. The women are all Hispanic. They are legal but they probably know and are friends with those who aren't. They worry for their friends.

My wife and I are friends with at least three Muslim families, two of which are from multiple generations of American citizens. Our daughter goes to a school where over 30% are African American, Muslim, or both. We worry for them.

We worry in a way that we haven't worried since finding out Bush Jr. was incompetent, in a way we haven't worried since finding out Bush Jr. got elected to another four years.

This time it feels different. I hope to God I'm wrong.
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« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2016, 07:07:17 PM »

Quote from: Zinfan on November 11, 2016, 09:57:27 PM

Never say never but I can't see the Electoral College being rescinded since it will need 75% of the states and 66% of the House and Senate to change the system.  In no way would the lower population states prefer to see the system change to a popular vote system no matter how logical or sensible it may seem.   That L.A. times article mentions some states want to send all their votes to the winner of the popular vote but look at the breakdown of this election and all those red states across the country, why would they cede power to the mass population centers?  It is a strange system but we aren't getting anything else anytime soon.

I agree it's not gonna change anytime soon, but it needs to be looked at by *anyone* who feels "disenfranchised".  I read over the weekend over 4 million votes from California hadn't even been counted yet, but were considered "inconsequential" to the outcome.  How can you convince people that their votes actually matter in such a system?  Do I have to move to freaking Ohio (no offense) to have a vote that "counts"?
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« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2016, 07:39:13 PM »

Haven't visited this neighborhood in awhile but I have to say I like this Dante guy.
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« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2016, 08:00:12 PM »

Quote from: Rip on November 14, 2016, 07:39:13 PM

Haven't visited this neighborhood in awhile but I have to say I like this Dante guy.

You're invading my safe space.

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« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2016, 08:26:47 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on November 14, 2016, 07:07:17 PM

Quote from: Zinfan on November 11, 2016, 09:57:27 PM

Never say never but I can't see the Electoral College being rescinded since it will need 75% of the states and 66% of the House and Senate to change the system.  In no way would the lower population states prefer to see the system change to a popular vote system no matter how logical or sensible it may seem.   That L.A. times article mentions some states want to send all their votes to the winner of the popular vote but look at the breakdown of this election and all those red states across the country, why would they cede power to the mass population centers?  It is a strange system but we aren't getting anything else anytime soon.

I agree it's not gonna change anytime soon, but it needs to be looked at by *anyone* who feels "disenfranchised".  I read over the weekend over 4 million votes from California hadn't even been counted yet, but were considered "inconsequential" to the outcome.  How can you convince people that their votes actually matter in such a system?  Do I have to move to freaking Ohio (no offense) to have a vote that "counts"?

I'd say yes you do have to move to Ohio for a vote that counts at least for this election cycle.  Swing states never stay the same (Florida seems to come up at lot though, could be the place to go for matter votes) so it's iffy on where to live.  I feel certain that California will remain a strong Democratic bastion for many years and thus while your vote counts it is swamped in a storm of like votes.  It just seems counter productive to blame the electoral college when it cannot reasonably be changed due to its constitutional protections. 

I'd like a system of splitting a states electoral votes based on popular vote totals within the state instead of a whole block going to a candidate because 40,000 votes out of several million cast won the state for that party.  I think at least two states do this (Maine maybe?) and it would be a way to readdress the electoral college while still being under the constitution since the states control how electoral votes are cast. 
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« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2016, 12:28:13 AM »

Quote from: Zinfan on November 14, 2016, 08:26:47 PM

It just seems counter productive to blame the electoral college when it cannot reasonably be changed due to its constitutional protections. 

Constitutional protections for who?  Slave owners?   icon_twisted

Some interesting reading:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/electoral-college-slavery-constitution/

http://people.uncw.edu/lowery/pls101/wilson_chapter_outlines/The%20Proslavery%20Origins%20of%20the%20Electoral%20College.pdf

As they mention, it is an inherently *undemocratic* system that no other country uses.  Sure there might be some complex system you could come up with to try to appease different factions, but ultimately someone would find something to bitch about, and what could be more truly democratic than having EVERY VOTE COUNT? 

You could argue all sorts of different ways about how such a system favors such and such, but the fact is you don't know what would happen, because we've never had this system.  No one can say exactly how it would affect voter turnout, and even what candidates rise to the top.  But there's no doubt it would be a more accurate representation of the true will of the people.

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« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2016, 01:03:23 AM »

Quote from: rittchard on November 15, 2016, 12:28:13 AM

Quote from: Zinfan on November 14, 2016, 08:26:47 PM

It just seems counter productive to blame the electoral college when it cannot reasonably be changed due to its constitutional protections. 

Constitutional protections for who?  Slave owners?   icon_twisted

Some interesting reading:

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/electoral-college-slavery-constitution/

http://people.uncw.edu/lowery/pls101/wilson_chapter_outlines/The%20Proslavery%20Origins%20of%20the%20Electoral%20College.pdf

As they mention, it is an inherently *undemocratic* system that no other country uses.  Sure there might be some complex system you could come up with to try to appease different factions, but ultimately someone would find something to bitch about, and what could be more truly democratic than having EVERY VOTE COUNT? 

You could argue all sorts of different ways about how such a system favors such and such, but the fact is you don't know what would happen, because we've never had this system.  No one can say exactly how it would affect voter turnout, and even what candidates rise to the top.  But there's no doubt it would be a more accurate representation of the true will of the people.



No you read my comment incorrectly, the Electoral College itself has constitutional protection due to it being in the Constitution with no regard to it's original basis for being in there.  While the every vote count thing seems fair it can be brought up time and again we are a Federal government not a Democracy in the traditional sense.
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« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2016, 01:59:40 AM »

Since OO is down I guess I will rebut the assertion that Stephen Bannon is an anti-Semite here.

http://zoa.org/2016/11/10342353-zoa-criticizes-adl-for-falsely-alleging-trump-advisor-bannon-is-anti-semitic/

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It is painful to see Anti-Defamation League (ADL) president Jonathan Greenblatt engaging in character assassination against President-elect Trump’s appointee Stephen Bannon and Mr. Bannon’s company, Breitbart media.  ADL/Greenblatt essentially accused Mr. Bannon and his media company of “anti-Semitism” and Israel hatred, when Jonathan Greenblatt/ADL tweeted that Bannon “presided over the premier website of the ‘alt right’ – a loose-knit group of white nationalists and anti-Semites.”    

In fact, as pro-Israel writer (and orthodox Jew) Joel B. Pollak wrote, Mr. Bannon is “an American patriot who defends Israel & has deep empathy for the Jewish people.”

ZOA’s own experience and analysis of Breitbart articles confirms Mr. Bannon’s and Breitbart’s friendship and fair-mindedness towards Israel and the Jewish people.  To accuse Mr. Bannon and Breitbart of anti-Semitism is Orwellian.  In fact, Breitbart bravely fights against anti-Semitism.

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ZOA President Morton Klein stated:  “The ZOA welcomes the appointment of Stephen Bannon as chief strategist to the incoming Trump/Pence administration.  We wish Mr. Bannon every success in his new position.  We urge Jonathan Greenblatt/ADL to withdraw and apologize for their inappropriate character assassination of Mr. Bannon and Breitbart Media.”

Would Trump’s extraordinary pro-Israel advisors such as Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Mike Pence, Sheldon Adelson, and Orthodox Jews Jared Kushner, David Friedman, and Jason Greenblatt ever allow an anti-Semite/Israel-hater to work with them? Would Trump’s Orthodox Jewish daughter Ivanka, whose children go to an Orthodox day school, ever allow an anti-Semite to work with her father? And, remember Donald Trump’s platform on Israel was the strongest pro-Israel platform ever. I’m also forced to ask – why didn’t ADL and other Bannon bashers complain that Hilary’s advisers included some very anti-Israel people starting with major donor to Hillary, the Israel-hating, George Soros? Where were ADL’s complaints then?
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« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2016, 02:30:37 AM »

Well, if David Duke and Peter Brimelow think he's the man for the job, who are we to argue?
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« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2016, 02:38:18 AM »

I care as much about what David Duke thinks as I do about what Mohammed Badie thinks, which is not at all. Douchebags that run hateful organizations and their opinions are of zero interest.
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« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2016, 02:32:27 PM »

Quote from: Rip on November 15, 2016, 02:38:18 AM

I care as much about what David Duke thinks as I do about what Mohammed Badie thinks, which is not at all. Douchebags that run hateful organizations and their opinions are of zero interest.

Somebody say something about hateful organizations? How about these examples from Breitbart:

Hateful article, exhibit 1

hateful article, exhibit 2

hateful article, exhibit 3

We now have a douchebag from a hateful organization as Chief Strategist. This is why folks are worried.
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« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2016, 03:32:26 PM »

Those article aren't half as hateful as things said by Bill Ayers, Rev Wright, Sid Blumenthal.

Heck are we just going to totally ignore that Huma and her family are key people at Journal of Minority Muslim Affairs which is one of the most jew hating publications on the planet.

People in glass houses..........

In the end Milo is a shock jock anti-PC guy that pushes the edges. Unpleasant maybe.

In the end Breitbart doesn't dictate what their contributors can write about like we have found so many websites do and it makes little sense to infer the words of them all equal his.
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« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2016, 03:40:37 PM »

Quote from: Rip on November 15, 2016, 03:32:26 PM

Those article aren't half as hateful as things said by Bill Ayers, Rev Wright, Sid Blumenthal.

What cabinet positions did they hold again?
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« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2016, 04:34:38 PM »

The rise of nationalism

This is why it's scary, not because Trump won, but how.
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« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2016, 04:51:25 PM »

Quote from: Rip on November 15, 2016, 03:32:26 PM

Those article aren't half as hateful as things said by Bill Ayers, Rev Wright, Sid Blumenthal.

Heck are we just going to totally ignore that Huma and her family are key people at Journal of Minority Muslim Affairs which is one of the most jew hating publications on the planet.

People in glass houses..........

In the end Milo is a shock jock anti-PC guy that pushes the edges. Unpleasant maybe.

In the end Breitbart doesn't dictate what their contributors can write about like we have found so many websites do and it makes little sense to infer the words of them all equal his.

He was the head of the organization. That means he directs how the organization functions, what stories it produces, and how it slants them. It's no different than when Roger Ailes was head of Fox News. The leader sets the tone of the company. And that tone was dialed to "hate".
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« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2016, 05:05:49 PM »

Quote from: Rip on November 15, 2016, 03:32:26 PM

In the end Milo is a shock jock anti-PC guy that pushes the edges. Unpleasant maybe.

Here in the real world, we call that a racist misogynist who is worthy of every bit of scorn and derision we can muster.  But I suppose ymmv...

Quote
In the end Breitbart doesn't dictate what their contributors can write about like we have found so many websites do and it makes little sense to infer the words of them all equal his.

And yet we've heard for years now how Obama is solely responsible for, well, everything that has happened during his terms in office.  And how Clinton is entirely responsible for the actions of every employee of the State Department under her tenure.  Funny how that works.
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« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2016, 05:27:03 PM »

Quote from: Pyperkub on November 15, 2016, 04:34:38 PM

The rise of nationalism

This is why it's scary, not because Trump won, but how.

While I don't agree with everything in there (the idea that Obama's entire legacy is "putting Trump in the White House" seems a little extreme), it's a pretty fascinating read.  Thanks.
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« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2016, 05:50:07 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on November 15, 2016, 05:27:03 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on November 15, 2016, 04:34:38 PM

The rise of nationalism

This is why it's scary, not because Trump won, but how.

While I don't agree with everything in there (the idea that Obama's entire legacy is "putting Trump in the White House" seems a little extreme), it's a pretty fascinating read.  Thanks.

Yeah, you have to get past the blame part to get to the meat of the article. The blaming Obama and progressives part is rather bs. The tribalism and nationalism was already going strong long before Obama was in office.
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« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2016, 06:31:44 PM »

Let's check in on Trump transition team and see how they're handling the logistics of an administration changeover...oh God.
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2016, 03:08:18 AM »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38005993
 But don't worry Trump totally didn't pander to racists.
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« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2016, 05:58:46 PM »

Sorry to belabor the point, but another good article on the Electoral College, why it should change (but probably never will, and hey, even Donald Trump agrees!):

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-pol-sac-skelton-electoral-college-20161117-story.html

In the mean time, the lead is currently around 1.2 million.
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« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2016, 03:39:39 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on November 13, 2016, 04:16:36 AM

Quote from: Dante Rising on November 09, 2016, 03:14:45 PM

If we are "past the point of no return on global warming" (as you say) then why would anything Trump does matter?

We are past the point of no return insofar as it is no longer possible to hold warming to the agreed-upon 2 degree safe maximum. We urgently need to prevent warming from going much higher than that, and we need to plan for the disruptions that are inevitably coming. To take just one implication: Whether the oceans rise another 2.5 feet by 2100 (already baked in) or another 23 feet (worst case, Greenland melts) is rather important.

Quote from: Gratch on November 09, 2016, 09:37:09 PM

this isn't the place I typically come to for nuanced political discussion.

Yeah, this. I just felt compelled to clarify that one point.

Speaking of belaboring points, I was waiting for a good link to support this argument. Here's one.
Quote
The IEA’s annual World Energy Outlook stated that reaching the Paris targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions was possible and that meeting those targets would slow climate change. Yet the IEA’s estimates also showed that the result of those reductions was not likely to keep the temperature increase beyond preindustrial levels “well below” 2 degrees Celsius, as hoped. Instead, the report’s authors estimated, meeting the national commitments to reduce carbon dioxide emissions would still allow temperatures to rise 2.7 degrees Celsius by 2100.

Meeting the most ambitious temperature goal discussed at the conference would be next to impossible, the report stated: “The transformation required for a reasonable chance of remaining within the temperature goal of 1.5 degrees Celsius is stark.”

So yeah, point of no return reached and surpassed. Now that the US government is threatening to reneg on its already inadequate targets...well, we're fucked. Or rather, your children and grandchildren are. Old child-free people like me will be fine.
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« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2016, 05:20:52 AM »

I imagine what most of the people who followed this would both say "You're lucky you got the nations to agree on anything." as well as "It's not perfect, but it's a start.".

Would think most solutions would come from the private sector, but probably only if backed by the various governments financially. As well as making a big push for an emphasis on the various sciences at university level.
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« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2016, 02:33:29 PM »

In case anyone likes reading horror stories that will keep them awake at night :
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/17/13626514/trump-systemic-corruption
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« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2016, 03:54:44 PM »

There is going to be an event in the next three years in which the phrase "spiral out of control" is going to be the defining line.

This will be like WWII all over again. Or WWI. Some otherwise isolated political event will create a fucking shitstorm due to otherwise unrelated political climates that will ensure the unrest covers the globe.

House of cards, indeed.

As a future American prisoner (because, hey, why WOULDN'T the US annex Canada and simply occupy us), I'm pretty damn scared.
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« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2016, 05:47:57 PM »

The one thing I have constantly seen across social media, from Trump supporters, is that the reason why there are protests and the still constant hand wringing is because the Democrat candidate lost and we cannot accept it so we whine. While there is some truth in that we wished one had won over the other that isn't why these things are happening. The other thing I've seen is the call to give him a chance to show what kind of President he will be before jumping to conclusions. Why wait when we already know what kind of person he is now.

I've been through several elections. Sometimes my ideology lost, sometimes it won, but I'd never thought it was the end of the world. This is different, this is dangerous. When others and myself say Trump is not fit to be President it's not some knee jerk reaction to our preferred candidate losing. He is fundamentally unqualified. As the Vox article Canuck posted mentions this is a man that does not react with shame when caught and as such is not weighed down by conscience or fear of going too far. He is petty and quick to lash out at any who question his statements or interests (https://t.co/pkMc5ngHox). He has shown no restraint in personally lying or passing on the lies of others to get what he wants and when caught doesn't stop but keeps going with the same statement. We know he is a misogynist which shows that he does not value women no matter what else he may say. And while you might be able to debate this I personally believe he is also a bigot and racist. The only person he seems to care about is himself, but we already knew that. Indeed professors are already adopting his name as the most textbook examples of narcissism. When he says that he knows more about ISIS than our military and I know he believes it and that's scary. He has shown no knowledge of our government or the way it works. A favorite of mine is him saying that the military should set up a court system to deal with sexual assaults. I also think there are many in the GOP that somehow believe that when faced with the task of actually leading that he will turn to them for guidance. He certainly wasn't willing to do that during the primary or election, so why would he now?

So what now?

Right now there is a push to get the oversight committee to demand a review his financial background for potential financial conflicts of interest. If found unfit the GOP would select someone else to be President but I believe Pence would still remain as VP. The latter I'm not sure on. Instructions below.
Spoiler for Hiden:

Call your Congressmen and insist that they do not let Trump go unchallenged and step up if need be.

As for me beyond those things I feebly hold on to two very unlikely hopes. The electoral college decides to not vote for him and enough change to Clinton or heck I would be fine if they banded together and chose Ryan. Or the House and Senate quickly find grounds for impeachment. Though we would still be left with Pence which isn't a much better person.
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« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2016, 08:06:57 PM »

Good luck with that.

When the apocalypse doesn't happen all the Henny Penny's will be exposed.
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Andrew Wonser
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« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2016, 05:45:53 PM »

Thank you for wishing me luck.

I too wish you luck on that breathing through sand thing you've got going on.
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