War on Scientology?

[Knightshade Dragon]

A hacking group is aligning against the Church of Scientology - http://apcmag.com/7905/anonymous_threatens_to_dismantle_church_of_scientology_via_internet

In addition, it looks like the gay/lesbian community is going to march on the Church of Scientology in London:
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/460/1201116421097ig4.jpg

With the recent massive leaks of internal documents and videos, it seems that people have had it with Scientology.  While my personal bend is that I'd like to see a religion based on smoke/mirrors/works of obvious fiction go away, I ask you this:

Do we have the right?

Our country is founded on the principals that anyone can worship whatever or whomever they want, as long as you aren't hurting anyone.  In this case, you could make arguments that the CoS has hurt people through brainwashing, but there are also true believers that state flatly that they were saved by the church.  Any way you slice it, I think the War on Scientology has begun in earnest. 

[VynlSol]

Do we have the right?

Yeah.

As long as it's not the government doing the protesting...

[CeeKay]

don't worry, their midichlorines will save them.

[Purge]

Ron, the war has not begun yet.

Go play Syndicate Wars. THAT is a war on Scientology.

[CSL]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

[Scraper]

I happened to catch Jammie Kennedy (Yes the actor, but he is also the grandson of L Ron Hubbard) on a radio show last week and this guy absolutely HATES scientology. The things he had to say about it are incredible. Apparently the rest of his family won't talk about the "church" because of threats and actual assaults that have been made against them by the church, but he didn't seem to have a problem talking about it.

He is convinced that the church is nothing more than a pyramid type scheme that is designed to beneift those at the top. The guy talked for about 40 minutes straight on the subject and seemed pretty knowladgable. Even if only half the things he said are true it's pretty scary.

[Larraque]

Anything I can say on the subject of Scientology is pretty much bullshit, because I don't "understand" the religion. Are there any scientologists in the gaming trend community, who would care to speak up on the subject? I'm really quite curious to hear you talk about the church and the allegations and persecution that you're facing.

[ATB]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

[CSL]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

I guess you answered my question.

[Eduardo X]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

Yeah, Christianity is definitely worse than lunacy. You can at least treat lunacy.

[CeeKay]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

Yeah, Christianity is definitely worse than lunacy. You can at least treat lunacy.

!

[Canuck]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

Yeah, Christianity is definitely worse than lunacy. You can at least treat lunacy.

!

This is the second time I've seen this posted-what is it that I'm not getting here?  I suppose if rich people want to throw their money away on some cult then who are we to want them to stop?  Just as long as they don't start stealing our children.

[Calvin]

Ron, this will not end well.

[ATB]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

Yeah, Christianity is definitely worse than lunacy. You can at least treat lunacy.

!

This is the second time I've seen this posted-what is it that I'm not getting here?  I suppose if rich people want to throw their money away on some cult then who are we to want them to stop?  Just as long as they don't start stealing our children.

Put together by the brillant ATB, and copied by the talentless and unoriginal CK, it represents 'OH, SNAP!' in picture form.

Magnificent!

[Caine]

i have a hard time believing in any religion written by a bad b grade sci fi author, especially one involving aliens in airplanes dropping bombs on our volcanoes.  do you have to bat shit crazy to believe in this stuff?  no, but it helps.  hitting the crack pipe before the sermon would probably work too.

[Blackadar]

i have a hard time believing in any religion written by a bad b grade sci fi author, especially one involving aliens in airplanes dropping bombs on our volcanoes.  do you have to bat shit crazy to believe in this stuff?  no, but it helps.  hitting the crack pipe before the sermon would probably work too.

Actually, taken logically, most religions are batshit crazy.  This one just happens to be more modern and therefore easier to scrutinize.

[CSL]

i have a hard time believing in any religion written by a bad b grade sci fi author, especially one involving aliens in airplanes dropping bombs on our volcanoes.  do you have to bat shit crazy to believe in this stuff?  no, but it helps.  hitting the crack pipe before the sermon would probably work too.

Actually, taken logically, most religions are batshit crazy.  This one just happens to be more modern and therefore easier to scrutinize.

I'll take the notion of God over aliens. I mean, sure older religions are a wee bit batshit but still...

[Caine]

sure, taken in context, a man claiming to be born of a virgin mother, fathered by the one true god, and able to perform miracles does sound kooky.  as does a man claiming to get insight from a burning bush, or a sacred text only he can see or touch. 

it all asks the question, do we believe in these ideas because we truly believe the stories happened as they were written, or do we believe because we want to believe there's something greater than we can imagine, just beyond our ability to grasp?

of course, if the bible said that jesus had flown around in a stealth fighter and used nano technology to turn water to wine and feed the masses with a cloned fish, we would have probably laughed him out of town.  scientology goes over most people's suspension of disbelief.  L ron H should have made the lore less high tech and more generalized. 

[Blackadar]

it all asks the question, do we believe in these ideas because we truly believe the stories happened as they were written, or do we believe because we want to believe there's something greater than we can imagine, just beyond our ability to grasp?

That's really the crux of the matter, isn't it?  Is religion just a crutch to deal with our own sense of mortality?

[Canuck]

Are Scientologists the new Mormons?

Nope. Mormons pervert Christianity. Scientology is just lunacy.  The former is far worse than the latter.

Yeah, Christianity is definitely worse than lunacy. You can at least treat lunacy.

!

This is the second time I've seen this posted-what is it that I'm not getting here?  I suppose if rich people want to throw their money away on some cult then who are we to want them to stop?  Just as long as they don't start stealing our children.

Put together by the brillant ATB, and copied by the talentless and unoriginal CK, it represents 'OH, SNAP!' in picture form.

Magnificent!

It's a little too big!  Here I fixed up for you-hereby insuring your and Ceekay's mutual destruction

[Mr. Fed]

Our country is founded on the principals that anyone can worship whatever or whomever they want, as long as you aren't hurting anyone.  In this case, you could make arguments that the CoS has hurt people through brainwashing,

Which would have no impact whatsoever of the vast majority of Scientologists to practice their beliefs, any more than Catholics are going to be prevented from going to church because of the priest abuse scandals.

Any way you slice it, I think the War on Scientology has begun in earnest. 

Because of an anonymous youtube video and an extremely well color-coordinated parade of people with bad teeth?

Isn't that just a little local TV news-ish?

[Scraper]

Having never actually met a scientologist I'm not sure how true this is, but I have heard that it's hard to find one (who isn't a celebrity) that doesn't look like your average Trekkie who hasn't gotten laid in about 6 years.

These are people who are desperately trying to fit in and find a cause they can believe in and Scientology offers them that in Spades.

[VynlSol]

I've never seen any indication of Scientologists around where I live. Yet after reading this thread, yesterday going to work I saw a parked yellow van with the words, "Ministries of the Church of Scientology, Greater Kansas City" printed on both sides.

I've since gone into hiding.

[Brendan]

Having never actually met a scientologist I'm not sure how true this is, but I have heard that it's hard to find one (who isn't a celebrity) that doesn't look like your average Trekkie who hasn't gotten laid in about 6 years.

Got any tips on recognizing a baptist or methodist?  I want to make sure my field guide's up to date.

These are people who are desperately trying to fit in and find a cause they can believe in and Scientology offers them that in Spades.

Remind me how that's any different from any other religious organization?

[Hrothgar]

Having never actually met a scientologist I'm not sure how true this is, but I have heard that it's hard to find one (who isn't a celebrity) that doesn't look like your average Trekkie who hasn't gotten laid in about 6 years.

Got any tips on recognizing a baptist or methodist?  I want to make sure my field guide's up to date.

Here ya go.  Baptist on the right, Methodist on the left.

[Scraper]

Having never actually met a scientologist I'm not sure how true this is, but I have heard that it's hard to find one (who isn't a celebrity) that doesn't look like your average Trekkie who hasn't gotten laid in about 6 years.

Got any tips on recognizing a baptist or methodist?  I want to make sure my field guide's up to date.

These are people who are desperately trying to fit in and find a cause they can believe in and Scientology offers them that in Spades.

Remind me how that's any different from any other religious organization?

No I don't have any tips.  , Except for the usual fish stickers and such on the back of peoples cars. I personally prefer the fish sticker with the legs coming out of it.

The point was I don't know if that stereotype is true, but it seems reasonable. It's a "religion" based on the writings of a bad science fiction writer. Just imagine if George Lucas decided to make his own religion, I would bet that enough people would buy into it that we would have herds of dorks running around with Jedi Robes, fake swords, bad personal hygiene and Gamorian Guard outfits. Oh wait we already have that at various trade shows and movie premiers.

[Brendan]

The point was I don't know if that stereotype is true, but it seems reasonable. It's a "religion" based on the writings of a bad science fiction writer.

Sure - he certainly was a bad writer.  I think the difference, however, is that we're (essentially) contemporaneous with the founding of it, whereas if we'd been born two thousand years ago, some number of us would be saying "What's the deal with that guy who claims to walk on water?" 

I mean, look, in a couple hundred years, the memes about scientology will evolve and shift, and while it's possible that future generations may think that Hubbard was a con artist, time softens people's rememberances.  There's plenty of evidence that Joseph Smith was a con artist, but the church he founded has millions of adherents. 

I just think it's pointless to single out their particular brand of delusion and not the others.  Scientologists aren't the only ones who'll believe crazy shit because of their faith.

[olaf]

Man check this out

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865-1,00.html

That article is 16+ years old...

[VynlSol]

Man check this out

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865-1,00.html

That article is 16+ years old...

...time softens people's rememberances.

[Scraper]

The point was I don't know if that stereotype is true, but it seems reasonable. It's a "religion" based on the writings of a bad science fiction writer.

Sure - he certainly was a bad writer.  I think the difference, however, is that we're (essentially) contemporaneous with the founding of it, whereas if we'd been born two thousand years ago, some number of us would be saying "What's the deal with that guy who claims to walk on water?" 

I mean, look, in a couple hundred years, the memes about scientology will evolve and shift, and while it's possible that future generations may think that Hubbard was a con artist, time softens people's rememberances.  There's plenty of evidence that Joseph Smith was a con artist, but the church he founded has millions of adherents. 

I just think it's pointless to single out their particular brand of delusion and not the others.  Scientologists aren't the only ones who'll believe crazy shit because of their faith.

I mostly agree with you. But the biggest difference that I see with Scientology is that they require one to spend LARGE amounts of money to participate in their "religion", unlike Christianity, Judeism, etc, one can choose to donate to the church but they don't have to pay money to be a part of it. One can simply pick up a copy of the bible and read it and start attending church to become a christian.

THe other major difference is that those who leave the "church" are often highly critisized and often times publicly humiliated by scientologists. Their behavior is much more cult like.

The final difference I would point out is that many of the "churches" teachings are secret and can only be revealed to certain people. Which is the biggest pointer of BS.

For all of these reasons Scientology should not be given a free pass to act like a religion.

[Purge]

Christianity doesn`t cost a cent, just your soul.

The first thing you pay is in guilt. (Catholicism first and foremost).

[Brendan]

I mostly agree with you. But the biggest difference that I see with Scientology is that they require one to spend LARGE amounts of money to participate in their "religion", unlike Christianity, Judeism, etc, one can choose to donate to the church but they don't have to pay money to be a part of it. One can simply pick up a copy of the bible and read it and start attending church to become a christian.

Tithing's been a part of religious culture for a very long time - famously, many mormons pay 10% of their gross(!) income to the church.  Back when Christianity was being established, tithes were often required by law - in England, the practice effectively lasted until the 70s, while in other countries (Germany, Austria, etc) it's still in force today.  There are evangelical megachurches which apparently require adherents to sign membership "covenants" stating that they're willing to tithe a consistent percentage of their income.  One doesn't see churches lobbying for that practice of taxation to end, particularly when some Christian churches explicitly teach that not tithing can jeopardize your soul.  You might say "Go to another church", but that ignores that people are taught that particular faiths/denominations are the only way to eternal life, which effectively means that those people either pay up or, y'know, go to hell.

In the end, all of these groups are just trying to perpetuate themselves indefinitely through whatever means they see necessary.  Scientology has some ridiculous and distasteful practices, but in the context of history, there's not much difference with any of the other sects.  Islam actually comes out ahead in this comparison - one of the seven pillars of the religion is to give 2.5% to charity.  (Of course, as you might expect, it's mandatory in many Islamic states).

[Scraper]

I mostly agree with you. But the biggest difference that I see with Scientology is that they require one to spend LARGE amounts of money to participate in their "religion", unlike Christianity, Judeism, etc, one can choose to donate to the church but they don't have to pay money to be a part of it. One can simply pick up a copy of the bible and read it and start attending church to become a christian.

Tithing's been a part of religious culture for a very long time - famously, many mormons pay 10% of their gross(!) income to the church.  Back when Christianity was being established, tithes were often required by law - in England, the practice effectively lasted until the 70s, while in other countries (Germany, Austria, etc) it's still in force today.  There are evangelical megachurches which apparently require adherents to sign membership "covenants" stating that they're willing to tithe a consistent percentage of their income.  One doesn't see churches lobbying for that practice of taxation to end, particularly when some Christian churches explicitly teach that not tithing can jeopardize your soul.  You might say "Go to another church", but that ignores that people are taught that particular faiths/denominations are the only way to eternal life, which effectively means that those people either pay up or, y'know, go to hell.

In the end, all of these groups are just trying to perpetuate themselves indefinitely through whatever means they see necessary.  Scientology has some ridiculous and distasteful practices, but in the context of history, there's not much difference with any of the other sects.  Islam actually comes out ahead in this comparison - one of the seven pillars of the religion is to give 2.5% to charity.  (Of course, as you might expect, it's mandatory in many Islamic states).

I'm not really debating Tithing. What I am syaing is wrong is the withholding of information unless you pay a certain amount to the "church". At least with Christianity one can easily pick up a bible and learn most of what they need to know (along with the testaments, etc.) In Scientology they activily keep things secret from members of the "church" until such time as they have paid a certain amount of money and have reached a certain level within the church (see pyramid scheme and brainwashing).

I'm not going to argue with you that other religions don't have their own faults and insane beliefs. Because they certainly do, it's just that Scientology seems to take it to a whole new level.

[Brendan]

Sure, as far as I know, there's only one book to buy with most of the other religions. I haven't progressed to the upper echelons of any of them, however. 

[unbreakable]

Scientology sounds an aweful lot like the "lodge" system.  Maybe they've been taken over by TEH ILLUMINATI!!!!111!

[CeeKay]

Sure, as far as I know, there's only one book to buy with most of the other religions. I haven't progressed to the upper echelons of any of them, however. 

well, for Christianity you just steal it from a hotel, so no real buying there either.

[Ragnarok]

Man check this out

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865-1,00.html

That article is 16+ years old...

Wow.  The magazine form of that article was used by my grade 11 world religions teacher (14-ish years ago) to teach us about cults.  We also learned about David Koresh & Waco as well as the 'Anthill Kids'.

I mostly agree with you. But the biggest difference that I see with Scientology is that they require one to spend LARGE amounts of money to participate in their "religion", unlike Christianity, Judeism, etc, one can choose to donate to the church but they don't have to pay money to be a part of it. One can simply pick up a copy of the bible and read it and start attending church to become a christian.

Tithing's been a part of religious culture for a very long time - famously, many mormons pay 10% of their gross(!) income to the church.  Back when Christianity was being established, tithes were often required by law - in England, the practice effectively lasted until the 70s, while in other countries (Germany, Austria, etc) it's still in force today.  There are evangelical megachurches which apparently require adherents to sign membership "covenants" stating that they're willing to tithe a consistent percentage of their income.  One doesn't see churches lobbying for that practice of taxation to end, particularly when some Christian churches explicitly teach that not tithing can jeopardize your soul.  You might say "Go to another church", but that ignores that people are taught that particular faiths/denominations are the only way to eternal life, which effectively means that those people either pay up or, y'know, go to hell.

In the end, all of these groups are just trying to perpetuate themselves indefinitely through whatever means they see necessary.  Scientology has some ridiculous and distasteful practices, but in the context of history, there's not much difference with any of the other sects.  Islam actually comes out ahead in this comparison - one of the seven pillars of the religion is to give 2.5% to charity.  (Of course, as you might expect, it's mandatory in many Islamic states).

I'm not really debating Tithing. What I am syaing is wrong is the withholding of information unless you pay a certain amount to the "church". At least with Christianity one can easily pick up a bible and learn most of what they need to know (along with the testaments, etc.) In Scientology they activily keep things secret from members of the "church" until such time as they have paid a certain amount of money and have reached a certain level within the church (see pyramid scheme and brainwashing).

I'm not going to argue with you that other religions don't have their own faults and insane beliefs. Because they certainly do, it's just that Scientology seems to take it to a whole new level.

Isn't 'Dianetics' Scientology's version of a Bible?  They were selling those on the street in from of the CoS Toronto headquarters to anyone who was interested. 

[unbreakable]

Isn't 'Dianetics' Scientology's version of a Bible?  They were selling those on the street in from of the CoS Toronto headquarters to anyone who was interested. 

I think Dianetics is their "primer" for Scientology.

One of my coworkers mentioned she called a commercial to get a free copy of the book.  This was over ten years ago, and she still gets some sort of mail from them every day.  That's a lot of dead trees.

[CeeKay]

Isn't 'Dianetics' Scientology's version of a Bible?  They were selling those on the street in from of the CoS Toronto headquarters to anyone who was interested. 

I think Dianetics is their "primer" for Scientology.

One of my coworkers mentioned she called a commercial to get a free copy of the book.  This was over ten years ago, and she still gets some sort of mail from them every day.  That's a lot of dead trees.

fracking tree killers!!!  cut down some trees and crucify them!

[unbreakable]

Wow... this is weird:  Scientology Given Direct Access To eBay Database.

Guess I can't get my Thetans counted without going through "official" channels.