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Author Topic: Tucson gun store owner cancels purchase by Gabrielle Gifford's husband  (Read 962 times)
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corruptrelic
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« on: March 26, 2013, 04:35:37 AM »

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The owner of a Tucson gun store where former U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' husband purchased a semi-automatic rifle has canceled the transaction.

Doug MacKinlay said Monday that a full refund was sent to Mark Kelly via express mail because the former astronaut didn't plan to keep the AR-15-style rifle for his personal use.

Kelly bought the gun March 5 at Diamondback Police Supply, saying he wanted to show how easy it is to buy an assault weapon. He planned to turn it in to Tucson police.

MacKinlay tells The Arizona Daily Star (http://bit.ly/X6mRe1 ) that he terminated the transaction Thursday before Kelly could take possession of the firearm.

Giffords was among 13 people wounded in a January 2011 shooting outside a Tucson supermarket that left six others dead.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/25/tucson-gun-store-owner-cancels-ar-15-purchase-by-gabrielle-giffords-husband/

What does it matter if he's buying the gun for political reasons? So the gun store owner loses out on a sale and the guy goes next door to buy the same thing. In the end he stops nothing, other than losing out on a few dollars.
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2013, 07:45:02 PM »

Good for him. He made his point didn't he?
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2013, 08:10:50 PM »

That law abiding citizens can do completely legal things to acquire legal firearms?  Stop the presses. 
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2013, 09:11:27 PM »

He's certainly well within his rights to cancel the transaction, and I'm sure the publicity he generates within his core demographic will more than offset the one lost sale.

I personally think it makes him look like a petulant child, but am pretty confident he won't lose any sleep over that fact.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2013, 09:34:08 PM »

I find him running into the hands of the gun control crowd a bit odd, even given his wife's issues, as he's a former Naval aviator.  Military types generally don't run that way, although I suppose naval members have less day to day experience with firearms than anyone except maybe Air Force personnel, and that only because they keep the Marines around to keep them in line.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 01:49:04 PM »

Thinking that it is appropriate for the military to have assault weapons and not thinking that it's appropriate for private citizens to have assault weapons does not seem contradictory to me.  In fact, that's my exact view.

Though I guess if all you are saying is that people in the military are less likely to favor gun control, then that is surely true.  Then again, there may have been something in his past that made him think that stricter gun control is a good idea... but how are we to know?
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 05:50:16 PM »

Tongue

Regarding the "assault" weapons, there is no functional difference between an AR-15 and a similarly calibrated hunting rifle. Both are semi-auto and only fire one round per trigger pull.

When the military wants to kill things, they use weapons like the M16 and the MP5, which are capable of burst and auto fire. Weapons with those capabilities are already highly restricted in civilian hands and not widely available with a LOT more hoops and regulations to go through.
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kratz
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 03:17:15 AM »

There is a functional difference between a 5 round top feed magazine and a 30 round removable box magazine.
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kratz
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« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 03:18:53 AM »

And for the record, I don't think that banning assault weapons is going to really make a big difference in the damage someone can do in most cases... but it sets a different tone for how view ourselves as a country.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 03:30:56 AM »

They make 30 round magazines for M1 carbines as well. 

And banning weapons because they look scary absolutely sets a tone for how we view ourselves as a country.  It tells me that we're more interested in doing something, no matter how pointless or ill conceived, based on emotion rather than addressing the real causes of violence. 

And Europe has the same problems with massacres that we do, despite having much more draconian gun control measures, which are usually just as kneejerk in the response to violent events as we attempt to pass, but it doesn't seem to prevent these things.
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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 06:14:04 AM »

M1 carbines are hardly hunting rifles.  I'm not an encyclopedia or state by state gun laws, but you certainly couldn't hunt big game with that round in this state.  I imagine that's the case in most, if not all, states.

Comparing European gun violence to US gun violence is silly.  The number of people killed with guns in this country vs. Europe is something like 34 times higher.  I don't think assault rifle bans will solve the gun violence problems we have in this country, I'm not that naive. 

Look, the cat is out of the bag.  To reduce the violence, we have to change attitudes.  I think the attitude that ordinary citizens for some reason need assault weapons, or that their rights are somehow being violated if they don't get to have them is what is scary - not the 'look' of the weapons themselves.  Don't put words in my mouth.  I think there is absolutely a point in, as a society, saying 'hey, we need to reign ourselves in, this is destructive'.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2013, 05:47:54 PM »

And I think the idea that "assault" weapons are the problem is ludicrous.  A lot more people die from handguns than long rifles or "assault" weapons.  And again, all of them are semi-auto, one bullet per trigger pull.  Extended magazines exist for pistols as well.

I'm willing to look at efforts to improve restrictions to licensing regulations.  But when the ratio is 17:1 of handgun to all rifle deaths, I see the focus on "assault" rifles as ludicrous.  I understand it's because of the visibility due to the recent shootings, but again, people in this country, and a lot of others, are more interested in doing something that has a high visibility than spending the time to do the right thing and actually have an impact.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2013, 12:49:39 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on March 31, 2013, 05:47:54 PM

And I think the idea that "assault" weapons are the problem is ludicrous.  A lot more people die from handguns than long rifles or "assault" weapons.  And again, all of them are semi-auto, one bullet per trigger pull.  Extended magazines exist for pistols as well.

I'm willing to look at efforts to improve restrictions to licensing regulations.  But when the ratio is 17:1 of handgun to all rifle deaths, I see the focus on "assault" rifles as ludicrous.  I understand it's because of the visibility due to the recent shootings, but again, people in this country, and a lot of others, are more interested in doing something that has a high visibility than spending the time to do the right thing and actually have an impact.

So maybe instead of "assault" rifle ban, you need handgun ban. smile
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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 12:40:42 PM »

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we're more interested in doing something, no matter how pointless or ill conceived, based on emotion rather than addressing the real causes 

Grim meet politics. Politics, Grim.

Also, pretty much sums up the TSA.
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kratz
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« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2013, 10:55:07 PM »

Yeah, we should control all firearms a lot better than we do, not just assault weapons.  Which we still don't need.  The Russians are not going to invade, the dead are not going to rise from the grave, etc, etc. 
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2013, 12:50:58 AM »

There should be a valid reason for removing access to anything in a free society. Having rifles be 5% of the weapon chosen for murders doesn't meet that standard, in my opinion.

I might not agree with them on most social issues, but at least my reps won't sell me out on pointless gun restrictions.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2013, 02:03:51 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on April 03, 2013, 12:50:58 AM

There should be a valid reason for removing access to anything in a free society. Having rifles be 5% of the weapon chosen for murders doesn't meet that standard, in my opinion.

I might not agree with them on most social issues, but at least my reps won't sell me out on pointless gun restrictions.

Do you support a handgun ban?
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2013, 03:28:26 AM »

I do not.
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2013, 04:18:15 AM »

So what's the magic number for you to be on board with having better control and restriction of firearms?  Is there a certain body count where you say 'Ok, we need to rein this shit in'?

I don't totally disagree with you, fwiw.  As I said, the cat is out of the bag, and I think that everyone now suddenly being all anti-assault weapon is just reactionary.

I do think that the enforcement of even our already existing gun laws is a goddamned joke.  I do think that assault weapons are pointless, and just feed this macho 'I need to be able to cap some fuckers!' mindset that a lot of assault weapon owners have.  I do think that in terms of actual crime, handguns are clearly far more dangerous.

I live in the state with the highest percentage of gun ownership in the country, but the per capita gun murder rate is super, super low.  I think something like 80% of the guns owned in this state are bolt action hunting rifles.  There is a cultural difference to how firearms are regarded here vs. other places.  I know a lot of responsible gun owners.  I have even been one.  So how do we foster that sort of an attitude elsewhere?  How do we keep guns out of the hands of people who want to use them do do bad shit?

I am willing to see my 'rights' (I put that in quotations, because I think it's a silly thing to be so up in arms about (sic), really) curtailed somewhat in the interest of the greater good.  We do this all the time - we have speed limits, even though that infringes on my right to drive 120mph.  We have a legal drinking age, even though that curtails my son's right to get brain damaged...

I'm not sure what it is about this particular issue that makes people so unwilling to give an inch, though I suspect it has a lot to do with the macho nature of the subject to begin with... and especially with how that macho nature is especially strong in the average guy who feels the need to own an assault rifle.  I take issue with that attitude.

I also sort of get it... they are neat as shit, and I'd love to go shoot one sometime.  I think it would be super fun.  But I don't *need* to, and I certainly don't feel like my life will have been bereft of freedom if I'm denied that chance.

I am probably not explaining this well, because it's sort of an intangible concept in a lot of ways.  Oh well.
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« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2013, 01:58:35 PM »

Who said I'm not on board with better controls and restrictions?

I'm fine with dealing with some more hoops to jump through, as long as they are reasonable and well thought out. Banning certain weapon types because they look scary is neither rational nor effective.

You want to make firearm insurance mandatory to own one? Fine. But put in protections so that it's not used as a weapon to reduce opportunities to use them. Cars are supposed to be licensed and insured, and they're much more necessary for modern life. Of course, the requirements for licensing, registration, and insuring cars are regularly violated today.

But if you want to make it so its an unnatural burden for a law-abiding citizen to acquire a weapon for sporting or defense use, I'm going to oppose it. There are hundreds of millions of weapons in this country that are never used in a criminal endeavor.
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« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2013, 07:47:36 PM »

The only thing that gets under my skin in this current topic is when some folks start screaming about how the government is trying to disarm them, that they're trying to take away their rights and that we're living under tyrants.  yet they fail to recognize that our government is working exactly as planned when a majority votes for something...and it passes.

...and can we never bring up cars again in any discussion about gun laws?  Pretty please?
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« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2013, 08:08:37 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 07:47:36 PM

yet they fail to recognize that our government is working exactly as planned when a majority votes for something...and it passes.

To play devil's advocate, couldn't the same thing be said about existing bans on gay marriage?  They were passed by majority vote, after all.
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« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2013, 08:10:51 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on April 03, 2013, 08:08:37 PM

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 07:47:36 PM

yet they fail to recognize that our government is working exactly as planned when a majority votes for something...and it passes.

To play devil's advocate, couldn't the same thing be said about existing bans on gay marriage?  They were passed by majority vote, after all.

To play devil's advocate, couldn't the same thing be said about segregation?  Slavery?

Some things aren't intrinsic human rights that should be afforded any other human being in a society of equals, some things are.  Unless you believe that gays and minorities are lesser human beings, I don't think you can use that analogy.
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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 08:23:40 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 08:10:51 PM

Quote from: Gratch on April 03, 2013, 08:08:37 PM

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 07:47:36 PM

yet they fail to recognize that our government is working exactly as planned when a majority votes for something...and it passes.

To play devil's advocate, couldn't the same thing be said about existing bans on gay marriage?  They were passed by majority vote, after all.

To play devil's advocate, couldn't the same thing be said about segregation?  Slavery?

Some things aren't intrinsic human rights that should be afforded any other human being in a society of equals, some things are.  Unless you believe that gays and minorities are lesser human beings, I don't think you can use that analogy.

Most ardent gun supporters that I know feel that the 2nd amendment is proof that bearing arms is an intrinsic right determined by the founding fathers.  

Not that I agree, mind you, but it's definitely out there as a prevailing school of thought.
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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 08:35:13 PM »

It's not an intrinsic HUMAN right.
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« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2013, 08:40:41 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 08:35:13 PM

It's not an intrinsic HUMAN right.

Who defines this?
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« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2013, 08:41:30 PM »

Self defense is an intrinsic right of life.  Plants release chemicals to try and stave off invading fungus and insect invaders.  Nature is not long in tooth and claw because they serve for mating purposes.  And we are not the only tool-using species.
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2013, 08:44:49 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 08:35:13 PM

It's not an intrinsic HUMAN right.

You and I agree on that...lots of others don't.  

Then again, I live in a state that is seriously considering making it legal to carry a concealed weapon without any sort of permit, training, or registration.  So I'm not exactly dealing with the most rational individuals on the topic.  smile
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« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2013, 08:45:59 PM »

Self defense can be performed using any number of tools.  Should I claim owning a nuclear missile (other than the one in my pants...BAM!) is a basic human right?  

As for defining a human right, read on.  Then read some more.

To equate human rights with the right to bear arms in the United States is utterly ludicrous and trivializes such things as the Civil Rights Movement.
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« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2013, 09:30:18 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 08:45:59 PM

Self defense can be performed using any number of tools.  Should I claim owning a nuclear missile (other than the one in my pants...BAM!) is a basic human right?  

As for defining a human right, read on.  Then read some more.

To equate human rights with the right to bear arms in the United States is utterly ludicrous and trivializes such things as the Civil Rights Movement.

Yeah. The constitution disagrees with you.
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« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2013, 09:35:45 PM »

No, it doesn't.
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« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2013, 09:43:51 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 03, 2013, 08:45:59 PM

Self defense can be performed using any number of tools.  Should I claim owning a nuclear missile (other than the one in my pants...BAM!) is a basic human right?  

As for defining a human right, read on.  Then read some more.

To equate human rights with the right to bear arms in the United States is utterly ludicrous and trivializes such things as the Civil Rights Movement.

Is it a MIRV?

Ale
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2013, 09:45:20 PM »

Let's just say that when it goes off, a lot of people die..

..wait...that doesn't work.   icon_confused
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