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Author Topic: These "Occupy Whatever Groups" Define Idiocy  (Read 592 times)
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Eco-Logic
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« on: October 09, 2011, 03:00:58 PM »

And if any of my left leaning GT brethren are participating, well,
That is all.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2011, 03:05:14 PM »

Mr. Eko-Logic says:



"Just had to get that off my chest!"

-Autistic Angel
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Zarkon
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2011, 05:05:22 PM »

Seriously speaking, what would you prefer people do?  Sit and do nothing? 

I'm not saying that there's not a fair amount of silliness and stupidity involved.  The same can be said for any protest.  It doesn't mean that what they're protesting (and I'm fully with them in spirit) isn't valid and pretty damn true.

People are upset and apparently there's enough people that are tired of just sitting back and taking it for something like this to happen.  Combine that with social networking being absolutely huge and you have the recipe for a lot of different possibilities.
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2011, 05:06:19 PM »

I continue to be surprised at how much ambivalence is directed at this movement by people I know. Also amazes me how much people are trying to characterize it as strictly "left" when it seems to me very clear that the movement is trying to avoid political classification.

Is this statement idiocy?

Quote
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.

From another post on http://occupywallst.org/:

Quote
Frankly, I have been for this movement from the begining. Yet when I see protestors in the street, making life harder for the rest of the 99% I am ashamed. The powers we are fighting against are bad enough, how would you feel if, because you felt it necessary to march in the street, a father of four was fired for being late for work?

We should do all we can to show we care. Just our growing presence is enough, we don't need to disrupt their lives too.

Also, we hold signs like END the FED and Bring them home. While these seem like great and revolutionary ideas to you, they may not seem that way to the other half of the 99%. We claim to be the 99%, so we must represent the 99%. Not all of us want living wages or gun control. Just like we don't all want gay marriage to be illegal or more wars. We all have different ideals. This is not the time to push those ideals.

We need to UNITE under one common goal! Fix the system! Fix our Democracy! End the corruption! MAKE THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE!

Frankly, I find this all a bit refreshing. Our current political system is skewed dangerously towards corporate interests and I haven't felt it was 'for the people' in a very long, long time.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2011, 05:21:57 PM »

I'm most concerned about an 'astro-turfing' of the movement as time passes. This: http://occupyparty.org/ Is the absolute wrong approach and I feel is antithetical to the statement made above. Identifying a party as the 'left's tea-party' is stupid as hell. Especially since some of these concepts are damn near the same concepts brought forth by the Tea Party before IT got astro-turfed. Check this out: http://www.feedtheprotest.com/node/315
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 05:24:18 PM by th'FOOL » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2011, 05:39:35 PM »

On that point:

I was watching Anderson Cooper friday (in passing, was on break at work) and found it both amusing and sad that someone pro-Tea Party was complaining about #OccupyWallStreet...even though they're very similar in a lot of their goals (or were originally).

I was also disgusted by the Republican presidential candidates slamming #OWS when they've previously been all aglow about the Tea Party.  Politics as usual, and half the damn problem.  Yes, I'd feel the same way if it was a Democrat doing the opposite.

We don't need partisan politics.  We don't need 'politics as usual'.  We need the problems facing this country to be FIXED, and 'politics' isn't going to do it.  On top of all that, there's the fact that it takes upward of $100 million dollars for someone to run for President and get just to the primaries.  How can we expect someone who isn't in the 1% to lead us when they're the only ones who can afford to try?  How can we demand less corporate involvement in our electoral process when people can't afford to run for office without corporate contributions?
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Eco-Logic
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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2011, 01:04:22 AM »

I do apologize for the bluntness of the OP.  The local group actually caused me to be late to a meeting.  It's actually slightly funny and the group would probably be happy if they knew they made me late (I had to make an investment pitch to a prospect).  This same group dressed up as Zombies to protest something or another at TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority).   

I'm confident I agree with some of "platform", but it appears that a large percentage of the groups haven't the slightest idea what they're actually protesting. 

Also, the whole "Wall Street" angle is completely off base and started the whole thing on the wrong foot.

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« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2011, 03:10:01 AM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on October 10, 2011, 01:04:22 AM

a large percentage of the groups haven't the slightest idea what they're actually protesting.

I think they know.

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« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2011, 08:42:17 AM »

The problem I have with this is that "astro-turfing" doesn't just happen over time - it's pretty rapid. And it's not just a matter of either of the two major political parties co-opting the group, but anyone who can.

There's a lot on that list that's valid, and I agree that they're also sentiments the tea party would agree with. Other parts are outlandish. Poisoning the food supply? Where? How? And "colonialism"? I don't think whatever anger is building up in this country is over freaking colonialism. Nice to know they're letting sophomores contribute to the list, though.

But where they really lose me is treating a college degree as a "human right". First because it's another case of people pulling "human right"s out of their ass. More than that... the university/college system is damn near obsolete. It's a little like demanding that all citizens get awarded adequate farmland so as to build a homestead, work the land for sustenance, and mayhap raise a barn. Not only unworkable, but pretty damn late.

Then again, it looks like someone recognized that with the comments on the 99% bit. So hey, maybe there's hope. Hell, if these guys and the Tea Party actually teamed up, I think it could scare the crap of the people who are in dire need of scaring.
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2011, 12:01:58 PM »

Quote
One day after demonstrators closed the National Air and Space Museum, Republican presidential contender Herman Cain amplified his criticism of the Occupy Wall Street movement, calling protesters jealous Americans who "play the victim card" and want to "take somebody else’s" Cadillac.

Cain’s remarks Sunday on CBS’ "Face the Nation" came amid an escalating war of words between Republicans and Democrats over the merits of the movement, which has spread from New York to other cities, including Washington, Chicago and Los Angeles.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/us_politics/view/20111010herman_cain_slams_wall_street_demonstrators/

Cain then went on to say if elected there'd be a pizza in every oven for 2012.

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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2011, 01:14:10 PM »

Not only was that protest not directly associated with the Occupy movement, but a 'reporter' for American Spectator published a story about how he infiltrated the group and in fact, helped instigate the clash with police himself:

Quote
“I wasn’t giving up before I had my story,” he writes, describing how he continued to rush past security into the museum itself. “I strained to glance behind me at the dozens of protesters I was sure were backing me up, and then I got hit again, this time with a cold realization: I was the only one who had made it through the doors....So I was surprised to find myself a fugitive Saturday afternoon, stumbling around aircraft displays with just enough vision to keep tabs on my uniformed pursuers. ‘The museum is now closed!’”

American Spectator has taken the article down, but the Post uploaded it to a Google Doc here

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« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 01:41:09 PM »

Whatever. These groups have POWER!



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« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 03:36:32 PM »

I find that oftentimes whenever you don't agree with a group protesting something, they're idiots.  I have the same reaction to the Tea Party.
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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2011, 04:46:04 PM »

Couple of veterans speak up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0aaTGsGdp4c

Funny how it's always the ones who have never been to war (and in many cases never even served) who are always pushing for new wars, while those who have actually been there are the ones pushing for caution.
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« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2011, 01:08:27 PM »

Great link describing the goals of the movement:

http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1

Quote
(An early list of "grievances" included some legitimate beefs, but was otherwise just a vague attack on "corporations." Given that these are the same corporations that employ more than 100 million Americans and make the products we all use every day, this broadside did not resonate with most Americans).

So, what are the protesters so upset about, really?

Do they have legitimate gripes?

To answer the latter question first, yes, they have very legitimate gripes.

And if America cannot figure out a way to address these gripes, the country will likely become increasingly "de-stabilized," as sociologists might say. And in that scenario, the current protests will likely be only the beginning.

The problem in a nutshell is this: Inequality in this country has hit a level that has been seen only once in the nation's history, and unemployment has reached a level that has been seen only once since the Great Depression. And, at the same time, corporate profits are at a record high.

In other words, in the never-ending tug-of-war between "labor" and "capital," there has rarely—if ever—been a time when "capital" was so clearly winning.

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« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2011, 01:13:31 PM »

I hope it catches more momentum. Labeling it left or right is detrimental to us all.  It's borne of frustration from all sides and rather than uniting we doing just as the Dems/Repubs would have us do and  latch on to the us vs. them mentality...

Frankly, I'm shocked that the Arab Spring didn't awaken more protests in America...and revolution. Literal blood on the street, storm the capital revolution.

Our government needs to be replaced wholesale...and I can see a time when a revolution will happen...but apathy is SO powerful.  Would I give up what I have on the off chance that it would bring about lasting change? I look at my kids and our house and I don't know that I would...could.

I wonder what a civil war would look like in the 2000s.

Let's tip the power balance and tear down their crown. Educate the masses, We'll burn the White House down. -QR
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« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2011, 03:08:14 PM »

Calling for a revolution and then talking about blood in the streets does not cast you in a good light.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:23:33 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2011, 03:30:22 PM »

Someone made a good point on NPR that when Egyptians were protesting everyone in the US thought it was the greatest and scolded the Egyptians for cracking down. In the US, people protest and they send out cops with pepper spray to break it up or arrest people (see Boston).
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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2011, 03:35:01 PM »

A couple of things to remember:

Not a single one of the protestors in the US  have disappeared permanently or shown up dead in the streets afterwards.

Not one gun has been fired.

The pepper spray incidents (while deplorable in most of the cases) are not widespread and in some cases are the response of scared cops being attacked with garbage cans and rocks (although the jackass new york cop who just pepper sprayed women out of spite can not be justified).

I know it's the in thing to try and compare the police response to current US protests on the economy to the response to protests about corrupt governments in Iran and Egypt, but it's disingenuous to do so and trivializes the very real sacrifices made by those involved in the latter protests.

For the most part I support the points that the Occupy folks are trying to bring to light.  And I think for the most part, the protestors themselves are generally peaceful, fed up citizens who are using their right to protest in the way it's meant to be used...and are cognizant of the fact that they DO live in a country where they can do so.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 03:39:49 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2011, 03:38:57 PM »

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
    John F. Kennedy, In a speech at the White House, 1962

Not that I'm predicting violent revolution. I do, however, expect to see these protests evolve into rioting next summer if nothing is done to address their main concerns (i.e., income inequality and shrinking opportunities).
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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2011, 04:19:42 PM »



Alright, and after it's all over, you say "Ooh, what a lovely tea party".
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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2011, 04:36:56 PM »

These Occupy groups are doing fine so far. Now, when things get bad as they're currently in Syria, we should worry.
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