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Author Topic: So. Why Couldn't the Mumbai Attacks Happen in AnyCity USA/EU?  (Read 5025 times)
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ATB
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« on: November 29, 2008, 09:14:33 PM »

Frankly, I'm shocked that some 'small' scale attacks haven't happened.

If you recall, after 911 there was talk of terrorists getting hotel rooms and filling them with explosives....or doing coordinated attacks in movie theaters.

Seems pretty simple logistically to pull something off like that...one or two cells hook up with one or two other cells to storm an elementary school or hotel or something.

Why isn't this happening in the US?  Or Europe?  Is it the level of intelligence?
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gellar
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« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2008, 09:25:40 PM »

Of course it could.  It could happen anywhere in the world, for that matter.

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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2008, 10:10:25 PM »

Tossing a dart in the dark, I'd ballpark it at 3 parts vigilance to 2 parts greater opportunity to change one's station in life in the areas in question to 5 parts dumb luck.

Some would argue your assumed lower frequency of terror events in "Europe" as well, but I'll let that pass
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« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2008, 10:55:41 PM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on November 29, 2008, 10:10:25 PM

Some would argue your assumed lower frequency of terror events in "Europe" as well, but I'll let that pass

Well, true, but I wanted to be inclusive.
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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 10:56:11 AM »

Conducting these kinds of terror attacks has to have a strong ego component. It's a nice idea from the terrorists point of view to attack say, a school and murder the children of the infidel, political, or ethnic opponent - but its not flashy enough for many I think. They want to do something big and bold, which means complicated, which is why these attacks happen rarely and are often foiled in the planning stages. We should be happy that these groups are so bold, it lets us catch them most of the time instead of them going for the easy movements.
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Jaddison
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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2008, 03:01:46 PM »

Probably the biggest reasons would be that the Mumbai attacks relied on in large part of the never ending tension between the Hindu majority and the Muslim minority and the fact that many in the Muslim minority are unable to forgive the riots and deaths of so many Muslims in 2002 with little to nothing done about it.  Add that to the fact that we have propped up Pakistan for so long even though it is a haven, even inside it's own government, for Islamo-fascists and Pakistan's long standing conflict with India and it is not such a stretch to see why would be much easier to happen there than anywhere in Europe or America.
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« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 07:07:29 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 09:14:33 PM

Why isn't this happening in the US?  Or Europe?  Is it the level of intelligence?

I wonder if the argument could me made that, despite the general assumption of terrorism as a global pandemic, in reality there just aren't that many people in the world willing to travel to Europe or the U.S. to kill a few Westerners, and probably die themselves. 
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« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 09:16:57 PM »

How about the fact that it is harder to do here? Asian and European countries are much more ethinically mixed than the US. It is easier for the diehard to blend in.

Also the ego thing. The desire to do it big probably does make it harder to do here.

I am amazed it hasn't been done here in some way.

Of course, how do you top 9-11?
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Jaddison
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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2008, 05:36:58 PM »

You don't have to top 9/11 to promote terror effectively.

Imagine the paralyzing effect of exploding a van packed with high explosives on a major bridge during a rush hour scenario.

Sinking a large commercial vessel by blowing it up AND having it sink in the middle of a major harbor channel.

Having suicide bombers walk into different commercial venues like banks or drug stores and detonate within the same hour or so but have this happen at 10-15 locations..

There are so many easy targets...but from personal experience I can tell you that different organizations have been planning stuff like this wayyyyy before 9/11 and were never able to execute.

But probability said that eventually something was going to get through.  Unfortunately it would not be in our interest to let people know specifics because it would help the bad guys figure out how we do what we do.
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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2008, 05:37:49 PM »

According to a soon to be released government report, chances are likely that the US will see something worse than Mumbai in the next few years.

WMD FTL.
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2008, 02:33:21 AM »

I'm suprised we haven't seen any suicide bombings in the U.S. You see them all the time in places like Pakistan and Iraq.. and even in Israel. (Walking into a crowded cafe with explosives tied to your chest)
There are extremists here at home and all it takes is one of them to walk into a mall, a police station, or wherever, and he can take plenty of people with him.
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2008, 02:39:39 AM »

Quote from: pr0ner on December 02, 2008, 05:37:49 PM

According to a soon to be released government report, chances are likely that the US will see something worse than Mumbai in the next few years.

WMD FTL.

Quote
The sobering assessment of such threats, due for release as early as today, singled out Pakistan as a grave concern because of its terrorist networks, history of instability and arsenal of several dozen nuclear warheads. The report urged the incoming Obama administration to take "decisive action" to reduce the likelihood of a devastating attack.

let's invade!
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2008, 05:19:43 AM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on December 03, 2008, 02:33:21 AM

I'm suprised we haven't seen any suicide bombings in the U.S. ...

There are extremists here at home and all it takes is one of them to walk into a mall, a police station, or wherever, and he can take plenty of people with him.
As I've said and the liberal boys here love to quote, people who drive BMW's and listen to 50 Cent (or Miley Cyrus or whatever) on their iPods tend to not strap explosives to their chests. There are indeed some extremists here, like McVeigh, but by and large, participants in the consumerist culture of ours are not as receptive to throwing their lives away as those who live in more oppressive societies.
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2008, 03:51:20 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 03, 2008, 05:19:43 AM

As I've said and the liberal boys here love to quote,

You do know that you would get a lot less static if you would leave that garbage out of your statements and let your ideas stand or fall on their own merit, right?

Anyone pretending to be a victim is rather unbecoming.  At the very least the reactions would be less personal.  What do you gain by behaving so?
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2008, 03:58:55 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 02, 2008, 05:36:58 PM

You don't have to top 9/11 to promote terror effectively.

Imagine the paralyzing effect of exploding a van packed with high explosives on a major bridge during a rush hour scenario.

Sinking a large commercial vessel by blowing it up AND having it sink in the middle of a major harbor channel.

Having suicide bombers walk into different commercial venues like banks or drug stores and detonate within the same hour or so but have this happen at 10-15 locations..

There are so many easy targets...but from personal experience I can tell you that different organizations have been planning stuff like this wayyyyy before 9/11 and were never able to execute.

Well I'm not sure those are really that simple to execute.  I can tell you from personal experience that the second scenario is of major concern to US authorities and lots of resources are being employed to track vessels with that sort of potential and investigate their crew lists.    I would assume that the FBI is also heavily investing in being able to track anyone who tries to obtain explosives in such large quantities for the first scenario.

Which doesn't mean that something can't slip through but I would but those are scenarios that we do have some level of ability to anticipate and prevent.  But stopping someone from simply obtaining some guns and shooting up a public location is far harder to prevent. 
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cheeba
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2008, 05:42:16 PM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on December 03, 2008, 03:51:20 PM

Quote from: cheeba on December 03, 2008, 05:19:43 AM

As I've said and the liberal boys here love to quote,

You do know that you would get a lot less static if you would leave that garbage out of your statements and let your ideas stand or fall on their own merit, right?


Anyone pretending to be a victim is rather unbecoming.  At the very least the reactions would be less personal.  What do you gain by behaving so?
Who the fuck is pretending to be a victim? The fact is I've been quoted on this subject repeatedly. I'm pointing that out. Why it would bother you that I've pointed out people have quoted me, I have no fucking idea, but methinks you're taking things WAY too seriously.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2008, 05:45:33 PM »

No, it couldn't happen here unless it was some dark-skinned mysterious foreigners who perpetrated the event.  After all, violence is in their culture but we're a morally upstanding self-controlled culture.
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2008, 05:51:28 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on December 03, 2008, 03:58:55 PM

Quote from: Jaddison on December 02, 2008, 05:36:58 PM

You don't have to top 9/11 to promote terror effectively.

Imagine the paralyzing effect of exploding a van packed with high explosives on a major bridge during a rush hour scenario.

Sinking a large commercial vessel by blowing it up AND having it sink in the middle of a major harbor channel.

Having suicide bombers walk into different commercial venues like banks or drug stores and detonate within the same hour or so but have this happen at 10-15 locations..

There are so many easy targets...but from personal experience I can tell you that different organizations have been planning stuff like this wayyyyy before 9/11 and were never able to execute.

Well I'm not sure those are really that simple to execute.  I can tell you from personal experience that the second scenario is of major concern to US authorities and lots of resources are being employed to track vessels with that sort of potential and investigate their crew lists.    I would assume that the FBI is also heavily investing in being able to track anyone who tries to obtain explosives in such large quantities for the first scenario.

Which doesn't mean that something can't slip through but I would but those are scenarios that we do have some level of ability to anticipate and prevent.  But stopping someone from simply obtaining some guns and shooting up a public location is far harder to prevent. 

Not saying it would be easy but none of those would "top" 9/11 but I think would certainly promote terror and in several cases cause some major economic damage.

Even 9/11 planning was not all that stealthy, complacency and economics got us more than anything...economics because the airlines were better off paying the fines for security violations than spending the money to fix their security problems which if they had been forced to fix 9/11 would have been much much harder to pull off.
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2008, 06:15:24 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on December 03, 2008, 05:45:33 PM

After all, violence is in their culture but we're a morally upstanding self-controlled culture.
Huh, that would seem to be a reference to me, and yet I clearly stated before:

Quote from: cheeba on December 03, 2008, 05:19:43 AM

There are indeed some extremists here, like McVeigh
Did you not understand that reference was to Timothy McVeigh, a white American? Or did you not read it? Or did you just see a chance to be smarmy and said, "screw relevance, I'm going for it!"
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2008, 07:08:09 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on December 03, 2008, 05:45:33 PM

No, it couldn't happen here unless it was some dark-skinned mysterious foreigners who perpetrated the event.  After all, violence is in their culture but we're a morally upstanding self-controlled culture.

So who did you think perpetrated 9/11 when it first happened? Be honest.

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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2008, 08:24:25 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 02, 2008, 05:36:58 PM

Imagine the paralyzing effect of exploding a van packed with high explosives on a major bridge during a rush hour scenario.

Sinking a large commercial vessel by blowing it up AND having it sink in the middle of a major harbor channel.

Having suicide bombers walk into different commercial venues like banks or drug stores and detonate within the same hour or so but have this happen at 10-15 locations..

I think you've put too much thought into this.  eek Explosives aren't all that easy to come by. You can make your own but they aren't typically as effective as some of the other options and the supplies to make them in significant quantities would raise red flags, particularly in the post-McVeigh, post 9/11 world. The Army taught me how to use TNT, C4, det cord, and a few other toys effectively, but you can't just pick them up at Home Depot.

Even with all that, it's certainly possible to have such a terror attack on US Soil, but to what effect? They cause the US to raise it's guard further and spend more money on rooting out terror, generate sympathy for the US on the world stage and not much else. On the other hand, attacks in India cause conflict between India and Pakistan drawing attention away from Afghanistan possibly making it easier to accomplish some other goal. If they are going after the US they do have to do it big, like 9/11. You don't shoot a bear with a 22, you'll jsut piss it off.
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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2008, 08:47:05 PM »

It would not be at all hard to, though hard is a relative term, to sail into a harbor with a merchant full of explosives and sink it.  Foreign flagged vessels are entering harbors daily.

Nor would be hard to have a merchant of the coast drop off teams in swift boats that are nearly invisible to radar and ferry explosives ashore to be stored for some coordinated strike.  Foreign sales from multiple sources no record in the US at all.

I think the real problem for them is that most of the men willing to sacrifice their lives are not all that educated nor are they very astute in walking around and blending into a western country...those that are are probably not all that keen of dying.

I think trying to give "Al Qaida" a credit toward having such a grand strategic vision is giving them too much credit or perhaps it is better stated a strategic plan that is actually workable.

India has had such long simmering Hindu-Islam tensions and the riots/deaths of 2002 that anything that happens is probably more due to that innate conflict than a worldwide Al Qaida push.

I do think Pakistan is now ground zero for Al-Qaida and we are paying the price for the Bush team letting Pakistan pretend to be our friend.  If we had let Iraq go and finished Afghanistan and dealt with Pakistan Al Qaida would be hurting big time...since Al Qaida was never going to flourish in a SH Iraq.  But it is what it is and Pakistan is Al Qaida central.
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2008, 08:55:59 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 03, 2008, 08:47:05 PM

It would not be at all hard to, though hard is a relative term, to sail into a harbor with a merchant full of explosives and sink it.  Foreign flagged vessels are entering harbors daily.

And those vessels have a huge amount of resources tracking them, flagging vessels of interest, investigating their crew members, arranging USCG escorts/interceptions, etc.  I know because I used to be peripherally involved in it.  This possibility receives daily attention from the highest levels of the Navy, Coast Guard, FBI, CIA, etc. 

Would it still be possible?  Of course.  But it is actually relatively hard to do. 
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« Reply #23 on: December 03, 2008, 09:11:40 PM »

As I said easy and hard are relative terms.  My use of easy was in "easier than another 9/11 scenario".

I worked counter-terrorism in the mid to late 80s and am retired Navy.  I am aware of the efforts you speak of...and of the soft spots and the reality of what all that tracking means.  I won't say more as it would be imprudent even if it is unclassified.

My first note in this thread remarked on how many things have been planned but thwarted over the years.  Way before 9/11 many many things were stopped at different stages.  Again you will never see details because that would aid our enemies and not be of much help other than to scare the hell out of people.  Too bad our intelligence agencies are chronically politicized at the upper levels no matter who is president.
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« Reply #24 on: December 03, 2008, 09:17:00 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 03, 2008, 09:11:40 PM

As I said easy and hard are relative terms.  My use of easy was in "easier than another 9/11 scenario".

I worked counter-terrorism in the mid to late 80s and am retired Navy.  I am aware of the efforts you speak of...and of the soft spots and the reality of what all that tracking means.  I won't say more as it would be imprudent even if it is unclassified.


Very true but I'm sure you realize that after 9/11 there is a lot more effort being put into this area than there was in the time you served.

As to the easy-hard scale, considering the range between "easy" (pick up some small arms and open fire in a public place) and "hard" (coordination of 9/11 attacks) I would place "load containers with sufficient explosives to sink a super-tanker in channel without being detected and infiltrate the crew such that the device can be detonated at the appropriate time " is much closer to the hard end of the scale. 
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cheeba
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« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2008, 09:55:15 PM »

Isn't it like pretty damn easy to make a fertilizer bomb? I've seen that somewhere, maybe on mythbusters or something. Not sure if I should look it up on google or not, lol.
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« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2008, 10:00:31 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 03, 2008, 09:55:15 PM

Isn't it like pretty damn easy to make a fertilizer bomb? I've seen that somewhere, maybe on mythbusters or something. Not sure if I should look it up on google or not, lol.

Yes, however acquiring and transporting sufficient quantities to make it a significant bomb without raising red flags is another story.
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« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2008, 11:22:14 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on December 03, 2008, 09:17:00 PM

Quote from: Jaddison on December 03, 2008, 09:11:40 PM

As I said easy and hard are relative terms.  My use of easy was in "easier than another 9/11 scenario".

I worked counter-terrorism in the mid to late 80s and am retired Navy.  I am aware of the efforts you speak of...and of the soft spots and the reality of what all that tracking means.  I won't say more as it would be imprudent even if it is unclassified.


Very true but I'm sure you realize that after 9/11 there is a lot more effort being put into this area than there was in the time you served.



As to the easy-hard scale, considering the range between "easy" (pick up some small arms and open fire in a public place) and "hard" (coordination of 9/11 attacks) I would place "load containers with sufficient explosives to sink a super-tanker in channel without being detected and infiltrate the crew such that the device can be detonated at the appropriate time " is much closer to the hard end of the scale. 

Didn't retire in the 80s just worked counter-terrorism for a bit back then.  I have been and am still involved in C4I for the Navy.  There is a part of me that wishes I could share some of the scenarios but again wouldn't be prudent.

But i never claimed the ship in the channel was easy, though it wouldn't take  a ship full of explosives to sink the sucker.  A ship full of explosives would be an impressive and devastating explosion though.  For pure chaos wouldn't need to be US port either.

Anything that causes us to be more fearful and spend more money to stop terror plays into a strategic approach to basically bankrupt us and from that angle, if Bin Laden were playing that line (and I think that may be a part of it), 9/11 succeeded spectacularly.

I have ended up reading a few books of fourth generation warfare......here is hoping that people in position to make decisions do too...clearly Rummy and boys didn't.
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2008, 03:30:36 AM »

Quote from: Jaddison on December 03, 2008, 11:22:14 PM

I have ended up reading a few books of fourth generation warfare......

Recommend any good ones?
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2008, 11:10:30 AM »

The Sling and the Stone: On War in the 21st Century by USMC, Colonel Thomas X. Hammes this was the best by far, Hammes is a serving Marine, i appreciate his courage in writing something that basically says "DoD you are not helping us win 4GW"

War of the Flea by Robert Taber

On Guerrilla Warfare by Mao Tsetung   The bible of insurgency

Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife: Counterinsurgency Lessons from Malaya and Vietnam  John Nagl
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2008, 01:12:35 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on December 03, 2008, 07:08:09 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on December 03, 2008, 05:45:33 PM

No, it couldn't happen here unless it was some dark-skinned mysterious foreigners who perpetrated the event.  After all, violence is in their culture but we're a morally upstanding self-controlled culture.

So who did you think perpetrated 9/11 when it first happened? Be honest.



When it first happened?  No idea.
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2008, 09:19:43 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on December 06, 2008, 01:12:35 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on December 03, 2008, 07:08:09 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on December 03, 2008, 05:45:33 PM

No, it couldn't happen here unless it was some dark-skinned mysterious foreigners who perpetrated the event.  After all, violence is in their culture but we're a morally upstanding self-controlled culture.

So who did you think perpetrated 9/11 when it first happened? Be honest.



When it first happened?  No idea.

So you thought no one did it? You coudn't come up with one plausible possibility in your head? I'll take a page out of your book and call BS on that. There's no way you sat there watching the towers fall and thought 'I have no possible inklings as to who could have done such a thing.'

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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2008, 10:16:17 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on December 06, 2008, 09:19:43 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on December 06, 2008, 01:12:35 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on December 03, 2008, 07:08:09 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on December 03, 2008, 05:45:33 PM

No, it couldn't happen here unless it was some dark-skinned mysterious foreigners who perpetrated the event.  After all, violence is in their culture but we're a morally upstanding self-controlled culture.

So who did you think perpetrated 9/11 when it first happened? Be honest.



When it first happened?  No idea.

So you thought no one did it? You coudn't come up with one plausible possibility in your head? I'll take a page out of your book and call BS on that. There's no way you sat there watching the towers fall and thought 'I have no possible inklings as to who could have done such a thing.'



I don't give a crap if you don't believe me.  I didn't see the towers fall until after 5:00 PM that evening on CNN.  I was working in client sites out in the boondocks that day and only vaguely knew about the terrorist attacks.  I knew some airliners had been flown into buildings - the WTC and Pentagon - and that was it.  Since the radio in my tech's truck was broken, we didn't know much more beyond "it wasn't an accident".  Given that the last massive terrorist attack had been carried about by white nutjobs in OKC, we didn't have any preconceptions of who did it.  It was a very strange day - every building/office we were schedule to visit was empty save like a maintenance guy who didn't speak English.  We hit 3 different locations like that and the 4th was locked up at 3:00, so we returned to our (abandoned) office and I went home a half-hour early.  By the time I got home and turned on CNN, it was pretty well established that the attacks had been carried out by Middle Eastern men, mostly of Saudi nationality. 

That may be why I'm still very intrigued by the attacks.  It was an event collectively shared by most of the US, but not by me (until late that day). 
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2008, 01:46:06 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on December 06, 2008, 10:16:17 PM

I don't give a crap if you don't believe me. 

Maybe you've learned a lesson then. It's aggravating to be called a liar.

Quote
I didn't see the towers fall until after 5:00 PM that evening on CNN.  I was working in client sites out in the boondocks that day and only vaguely knew about the terrorist attacks.  I knew some airliners had been flown into buildings - the WTC and Pentagon - and that was it.  Since the radio in my tech's truck was broken, we didn't know much more beyond "it wasn't an accident".  Given that the last massive terrorist attack had been carried about by white nutjobs in OKC, we didn't have any preconceptions of who did it.  It was a very strange day - every building/office we were schedule to visit was empty save like a maintenance guy who didn't speak English.  We hit 3 different locations like that and the 4th was locked up at 3:00, so we returned to our (abandoned) office and I went home a half-hour early.  By the time I got home and turned on CNN, it was pretty well established that the attacks had been carried out by Middle Eastern men, mostly of Saudi nationality. 

That may be why I'm still very intrigued by the attacks.  It was an event collectively shared by most of the US, but not by me (until late that day). 

That's a pretty cool/crazy/odd story.  As for the white nut jobs, I was a lone dissenting voice at GG when the towers got hit reminding folks of McVeigh.  Others were going wild with what turned out to be accurate Middle Eastern pronouncements.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2008, 04:10:30 AM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on December 07, 2008, 01:46:06 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on December 06, 2008, 10:16:17 PM

I don't give a crap if you don't believe me. 

Maybe you've learned a lesson then. It's aggravating to be called a liar.

Why would it be aggravating?  If something's true and you're called a liar, it's not aggravating, it's just the other person is being an idiot.  If it's false and you're called a liar, they're just being accurate.  Either way, it's of no great consequence to me.  smile

As for the WTC story, yea, it was a very weird day.  I probably hadn't been out of the office in a month prior to that and just happened to pick that day to ride with a tech.  Every place we went was a ghost town.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 04:14:17 AM by Blackadar » Logged

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Drazzil
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 08:04:57 PM »

The next terrorist attack is going to involve a hijacked supertanker, perhaps multiple supertankers filled with liquid chemical fertilizer and sailed into major commerical ports, Long Beach, New York or Philidelphia, perhaps all at once. The blast would be large enough to basically wipe out portions of whole cities.

This would be a crippling blow to our economy as well, and may cripple shipping to and from the United States, the world economy would grind to a halt.
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ATB
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 10:02:40 PM »

Quote from: Drazzil on December 22, 2008, 08:04:57 PM

the world economy would grind to a halt.

As opposed to...
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CSL
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« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2008, 10:30:00 PM »

Quote from: Drazzil on December 22, 2008, 08:04:57 PM

The next terrorist attack is going to involve a hijacked supertanker, perhaps multiple supertankers filled with liquid chemical fertilizer and sailed into major commerical ports, Long Beach, New York or Philidelphia, perhaps all at once. The blast would be large enough to basically wipe out portions of whole cities.

This would be a crippling blow to our economy as well, and may cripple shipping to and from the United States, the world economy would grind to a halt.

I'm glad I don't live in your farcical dream world.

Five suitcase bombs are more likely to go off in the United States at the same time than for a terrorist group to successfully hijack a supertanker, fill it with liquid chemical fertilizer (wonder where they'll get enough to fill a supertanker and have the time to do it without being caught), then get the whole thing into an American port without anyone batting an eyelash.

How much cheap Tom Clancyesque rags have you been reading?
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2008, 11:22:56 PM »

Something that big gets hijacked, jets or attack helicopters will be scrambled when they pull the old Han Solo "Fine  Everything is fine, here... now...How are you?" on radio contact with the harbor master/coast guard.   Ships don't just float into harbors willy-nilly.

And I doubt we import fertilizers .  Seems more like something we would export, and if need be, ship from domestic producers  to domestic consumers via interstate rail.  Port cost on that stuff would be silly
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gellar
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« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2008, 11:54:21 PM »

There are very fast, very invisible cargo ships.  Duh.

gellar
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