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Author Topic: So now we torture on behalf of the Chinese?  (Read 6433 times)
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2008, 06:05:41 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 22, 2008, 05:15:55 PM

So, no movement in your position - this treatment of the Uighurs by the US governement and the Chinese interrogators isn't notable, and still isn't worthy of "outrage", then?

If the Uighurs are innocent then they should be released and the sooner the better.  While I would not call it outrage, I am very concerned if we are holding innocent people without reason.  The treatment of the Uighurs is not clear at this point so I don't feel much outrage over that situation.  The fact that Chinese interrogators were brought in does not concern me any more than if Canadian interrogators were brought in.
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2008, 06:10:36 PM »

It seems odd to me that we officially acknowledge that China oppresses the Uighurs, and refuse to send Uighurs back to China for that reason, but we soften them up for interrogation by China and give Chinese interrogators access to them.

Would we let Cubans come in and interrogate exiles?
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Brendan
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2008, 06:11:06 PM »

MrZubbleWump - The Uighurs are innocent.  The DOD has admitted as much twice, officially, over the last six years.  They haven't been released because we won't send them to China because we admit that the Chinese will torture them.  We are apparently unwilling to release them in the United States, and so have held them in solitary confinement for six years.

I don't understand why would feel that things are "not clear at this point."  I've provided plenty of documentation for you.  If you have some reason to believe that they are not innocent or not being held in prison, I would be happy to read it and comment.
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2008, 08:45:02 PM »

Read what I wrote.  I am very concerned when we hold anyone who is innocent for no good reason.  I AGREE WITH YOU, I'm just not outraged.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 08:47:40 PM by MrZubbleWump » Logged
Brendan
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2008, 10:08:15 PM »

Quote from: MrZubbleWump on May 22, 2008, 08:45:02 PM

Read what I wrote.  I am very concerned when we hold anyone who is innocent for no good reason.  I AGREE WITH YOU, I'm just not outraged.

I did read what you wrote - you offered an unjustified qualification saying that their treatment was "not clear at this point," so that was the basis of my query.
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2008, 12:42:00 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 22, 2008, 10:08:15 PM

Quote from: MrZubbleWump on May 22, 2008, 08:45:02 PM

Read what I wrote.  I am very concerned when we hold anyone who is innocent for no good reason.  I AGREE WITH YOU, I'm just not outraged.

I did read what you wrote - you offered an unjustified qualification saying that their treatment was "not clear at this point," so that was the basis of my query.

The reason that I said "if" is because it's not 100% clear to me since I am taking your word for it that the DOJ has found them innocent.  I'm not even certain what authority the DOJ has in this matter since they are being held on a military base outside of the U.S.  If I told you that I'm "outraged" would you drop this?
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Brendan
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« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2008, 02:04:06 AM »

There's nothing to drop - I'm just trying to understand your mentality and the method by which you come to your conclusions.
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Brendan
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« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2008, 04:00:51 AM »

In a sick irony, the methods that we used to torture people at Guantanamo Bay... were gleaned from a 1957 report written by the Air Force about techniques the Chinese used to elicit false confessions.

Yes, seriously.

Quote
In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C.I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners.

Just when I thought the administration's prosecution of the "war on terror" couldn't be more incompetent, they prove me wrong.

Apparently the "harshest" interrogation was that of Mohamed al-Kahtani, who they arrested in 2003.  They dropped all the charges against him in May of this year, five years after throwing him in prison.  He spent twenty hours a day in interrogation rooms for six weeks after they first brought him in.
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Geezer
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« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2008, 01:26:30 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on July 02, 2008, 04:00:51 AM

In a sick irony, the methods that we used to torture people at Guantanamo Bay... were gleaned from a 1957 report written by the Air Force about techniques the Chinese used to elicit false confessions.

Yes, seriously.

Quote
In 2002, the training program, known as SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape, became a source of interrogation methods both for the C.I.A. and the military. In what critics describe as a remarkable case of historical amnesia, officials who drew on the SERE program appear to have been unaware that it had been created as a result of concern about false confessions by American prisoners.

Just when I thought the administration's prosecution of the "war on terror" couldn't be more incompetent, they prove me wrong.

Apparently the "harshest" interrogation was that of Mohamed al-Kahtani, who they arrested in 2003.  They dropped all the charges against him in May of this year, five years after throwing him in prison.  He spent twenty hours a day in interrogation rooms for six weeks after they first brought him in.

Do you suppose we won his heart or his mind?
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Brendan
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« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2008, 02:18:25 PM »

He's still being held at Guantanamo, so apparently we're not done winning either of them.
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Jaddison
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« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2008, 02:55:59 PM »

The disinformation in this whole torture thing remains amazing.  Many have started spouting that we are releasing people who are then caught fighting against us....except that there is not one proven or even alleged case of that nor is DoD or any other government entity tracking released prisoners....this however does not prevent a Supreme Court justice from citing this in his dissenting opinion.  Scalia is more and more just becoming a caricature of a justice.
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2008, 05:53:53 PM »

Quote from: Jaddison on July 02, 2008, 02:55:59 PM

The disinformation in this whole torture thing remains amazing.  Many have started spouting that we are releasing people who are then caught fighting against us....except that there is not one proven or even alleged case of that nor is DoD or any other government entity tracking released prisoners....this however does not prevent a Supreme Court justice from citing this in his dissenting opinion.  Scalia is more and more just becoming a caricature of a justice.

Apparently you just don't understand.  One of them wrote an op-ed in the New York Times.  The New.  York.  TIMES.  If that's not joining the enemy on the battlefield, what is?
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Jaddison
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« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2008, 06:03:34 PM »

That is the New Yawk Times that also pimped the WMD hyperbole in the run up to invading Iraq.  The same times that used information fed to it by Cheney et al and then had Cheney say look at what the Times is saying about WMDs to prop up their case for war?  The Times used to be a good paper IIRC.
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Brendan
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« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2008, 05:35:50 PM »

In other news relating to military incarcerations and the nuance of what is/isn't torture:

The military says that these "segregation boxes" currently in use in prisons in Iraq are not torture because, in part, they're checked every 15 minutes and prisoners are given food and water while in them.

I would submit these details:

"Some of the boxes are as small as 3 feet by 3 feet by 6 feet tall, according to military officials, although they did not release a picture of a box that size."
"It said detainees, who stand in the boxes, are isolated for no more than 12 hours at a time."

12 hours in a 3x3x6 box?  Perhaps they could argue that they're just pre-death coffins.
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« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2008, 06:13:02 PM »

Zubbles point about parents and dinner: that's not punishment, it's discipline. It originates from the word disciple, as in its teaching exercise. What do you suppose solitary confinement is teaching innocent chinese?

How about they put them up at the Delta instead; maybe some better treatment while they get their US citizenship since they've clearly taken ownership of them anyways.
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Brendan
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« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2008, 07:19:25 PM »

About fucking time.

Quote
Today, for the first time, a federal court ordered the release into the United States of 17 innocent Uighur men who have been imprisoned at Guantánamo Bay for nearly seven years. The men are refugees who would face persecution and imprisonment, if not death, if returned to their native China.

“In the history of our Republic, the military never imprisoned any man so harshly, and for so long, let alone men who are not the enemy. We have broken faith with the rule of law, and been untrue to the generosity of spirit that is our national character,” said Sabin Willett, Partner at Bingham McCutchen who argued the case for the detainees today.
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