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Author Topic: So. If the US Hadn't Invaded Iraq...  (Read 7622 times)
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CSL
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2008, 11:17:01 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 06:03:08 AM

Saddam bears no responsibility? The people who kept Saddam in power bear no responsibility? Personally I'm of the mind that if you're under a tyrannical douchebag like Saddam Hussein then you should do every damn thing in your power to get rid of him. Those who did not do so bear some responsibility for Saddam's army shooting at American planes flying over the United Nations mandated No Fly Zone. They bear some responsibility for Saddam attempting to assassinate a former American president. They bear some responsibility for Iraq repeatedly defying United Nations mandates.

This is possibly the most fucked up thing I've heard you say. Sure you might be able to argue this kind of thing if Saddam had been elected, ala Adolf Hitler, but he wasn't.

The people bear no culpability Saddam's actions. To insiuate that they should have rose up to overthrow him is laughable at best. Sure you and maybe a few thousand others might have thought the same thing when Saddam got into power - he executed you well before the Iran-Iraq War. The Kurds also got that fancy idea after the Gulf War, remember, when they got a few assurances or at the very least the idea from the United States that Saddam had been weakened and could be dealt with. He gassed them.

This is possibly the stupidiest line of thought I've ever seen on these forums, so mind bogglingly stupid that you must have been drunk, intoxicated, or just plain fucking stupid. To suggest that because Saddam tried to have George Bush assassinated they share responsibility is mindboggling. If you're to go on that line of reasoning than every American shares responsibility for the rampantly illegal CIA move to oust Mohammed Mosaddeq, which directly led to the Iranian Revolution. Or I'll take it further, with that line of reasoning every white American bears some responsibility for slavery and the institutional racism that came after.

Of course, you simply forgot that since Saddam wasn't democratically elected - never was elected to anything - and to therefore even attempt to apportion blame to the wider populace is nothing less than sheer foolishness.
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cheeba
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« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2008, 02:32:06 PM »

Quote from: CSL on November 30, 2008, 11:17:01 AM

To suggest that because Saddam tried to have George Bush assassinated they share responsibility is mindboggling.
People share the responsibility for the government over them, at least somewhat. Obviously there are varying degrees, but in my view if you are oppressed then it is your responsibility to oppose it. I'm surprised that it's such an unusual concept for you that you're reduced to a bunch of petty insults and incapable of intelligent discussion.
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If you're to go on that line of reasoning than every American shares responsibility for the rampantly illegal CIA move to oust Mohammed Mosaddeq, which directly led to the Iranian Revolution.
Every American shares responsibility for the actions of the CIA. Our government is accountable to us. Of course government can go off and do its own thing. We are then responsible for fixing it.
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Or I'll take it further, with that line of reasoning every white American bears some responsibility for slavery and the institutional racism that came after.
Odd that you would call my arguments and me stupid and yet you seem unable to understand the argument. Every American that lived at the time of slavery bore some responsibility for it. Are we responsible for it now? I don't think so, but that's another subject. Are we responsible for racism now? Yes, I would say so, to some degree.
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Of course, you simply forgot that since Saddam wasn't democratically elected - never was elected to anything - and to therefore even attempt to apportion blame to the wider populace is nothing less than sheer foolishness.
Nope, never forgot. Don't care if he was elected or not. If you are ruled by a tyrannical dictator then you have at least some responsibility to oppose him or move your ass out of there.
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2008, 03:08:31 PM »

Evidence, Cheeba?

I'll start with an obvious fact.  Not everyone in the Middle East is a Radical Islamist, or Muslim, or Arab, or Jew, or Christian.  On that alone your touted professor's stereotypes and those of your own fail.

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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2008, 03:20:50 PM »

Quote from: cheeba
If you are ruled by a tyrannical dictator then you have at least some responsibility to oppose him or move your ass out of there.

cheeba, have you ever considered writing a book about all your keen geopolitical insights?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2008, 03:21:05 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 02:32:06 PM

If you are ruled by a tyrannical dictator then you have at least some responsibility to oppose him or move your ass out of there.

Iraqis have earned some sort of collective responsibility because they failed, in your privileged and nuanced estimation from the comfortable confines of your La-z-boy, to get themselves killed in sufficient numbers this time around?

To echo CSL, perhaps you weren't paying attention, but the first President Bush called for a rebellion in Iraq in 1991.   The Shia and Kurds obliged, and what happened?

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"You had this mantra being repeated in Washington, `We're not going to get involved in Iraq's internal affairs,' recalls Peter Galbraith, a Senate Foreign Relations Committee staffer who visited Iraq in March [1991]. 'This was a clear signal to Saddam that he could kill whoever he needed to kill to stay in power.'

Baghdad quickly deployed helicopter gunships against the poorly armed rebels -- violating the spirit of a cease-fire agreement -- and Republican Guards slipped out of Basra, under the noses of U.S. forces posted near main highways. As one senior officer puts it: 'We had overwatch of the traffic but we didn't interdict it.'

As reports of mass slaughter trickled out of Iraq, Pentagon officials drew up a plan for protecting the Shiites with a "safe haven" similar to the one that later shielded Kurds. But no one acted on it. "It was a non-starter. It ran into an administration which simply wasn't interested," says a Pentagon official familiar with the plan. "The attitude was, `the war's over, Kuwait's secured, let's get the hell out.'

I wonder why they weren't inclined to do it again.

Maybe you could help the war effort, Cheeba.  Send them a few emails exhorting them to rise up and die for freedom.  You're just like Patrick Henry, if Patrick Henry'd sat out the Revolutionary War entirely, choosing instead to mumble his rhetoric on a street corner in France.
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cheeba
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« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2008, 07:11:30 PM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on November 30, 2008, 03:08:31 PM

I'll start with an obvious fact.  Not everyone in the Middle East is a Radical Islamist, or Muslim, or Arab, or Jew, or Christian.  On that alone your touted professor's stereotypes and those of your own fail.
You're right, it is an obvious fact. It's also completely meaningless. Because we are arguing that tribal/religious violence is part of middle eastern culture does not mean we are arguing that every single man, woman and child partakes in it. I'd say hot dogs and baseball are part of American culture, but that doesn't mean there aren't some vegetarians who hate baseball out there.

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 30, 2008, 03:20:50 PM

cheeba, have you ever considered writing a book about all your keen geopolitical insights?
No one reads anymore. I'm looking into interpretive dance.

Quote from: Brendan on November 30, 2008, 03:21:05 PM

To echo CSL, perhaps you weren't paying attention, but the first President Bush called for a rebellion in Iraq in 1991.   The Shia and Kurds obliged, and what happened?
Yep, we screwed up there. Doesn't mean Iraqis aren't still at least partly responsible for their ruler.
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Maybe you could help the war effort, Cheeba.  Send them a few emails exhorting them to rise up and die for freedom.  You're just like Patrick Henry, if Patrick Henry'd sat out the Revolutionary War entirely, choosing instead to mumble his rhetoric on a street corner in France.
Ah here you go again on the old "if you support the war you must go out and fight" theme. When you come up with something new, or at the very least valid, let me know.
 deadhorse
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 07:13:09 PM by cheeba » Logged
the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2008, 07:42:20 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 07:11:30 PM

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on November 30, 2008, 03:08:31 PM

I'll start with an obvious fact.  Not everyone in the Middle East is a Radical Islamist, or Muslim, or Arab, or Jew, or Christian.  On that alone your touted professor's stereotypes and those of your own fail.
You're right, it is an obvious fact. It's also completely meaningless. Because we are arguing that tribal/religious violence is part of middle eastern culture does not mean we are arguing that every single man, woman and child partakes in it. I'd say hot dogs and baseball are part of American culture, but that doesn't mean there aren't some vegetarians who hate baseball out there.

And not every Middle eastern resident is strapping a bomb to their chest or setting up roadside bombs and going after the infidels.  You're willing to paint everyone in the Middle East for a minority of imbalanced people?    Your example is closer to calling your imagined vegetarians the norm of our American culture.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2008, 07:58:08 PM »

How many percentage of people have to be involved in tribal/religious violence for it to become a culture? How many percentage of people have to be against tribal/religious violence for it to become not a culture?

As for Iraq and Saddam Hussein, if you can blame Iraqi for it then I am sure we can also blame US for it and maybe all Americans too for supporting US government. Saddam Hussein seized power with help of CIA. The same with Indonesian dictator Suharto who seized power in 1965 with help of CIA. So maybe setting up dictators and giving them a list of death squad targets is part of American culture?
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Purge
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« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2008, 08:02:50 PM »

Cheeba, lets look back at what you said :

Quote from: cheeba on November 26, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 25, 2008, 01:25:58 PM

We would have far more resources to dedicate to keep the peace in Afganistan (which is a mess today) and more troops to look for Bin Ladin.
First part is irrelevant to the question. As for more troops to look, who's to say that would help? We don't know.
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First of all, if we weren't spending 10 Billion a month in Iraq over the last 4 years, we'd have far more money in which to stimulate the economy.
The credit crisis would have still happened. The money we are spending on stimulating the economy is having questionable gains as is.

So 120 Billion a year isn't noteworthy? Dismissive, ignoring the hard bottom line that money spent on explosives still goes boom.

Quote from: cheeba on November 26, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

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Also, gas prices probably wouldn't have risen as fast or as far, giving people more discretionary income this summer when the economy sorely needed it.
And less incentive to buy more fuel efficient cars. And less reason for the auto companies to begin retooling for higher mileage cars.

What, exactly is the point of that comment? Do you think that gas prices would still not have climbed, that greenhouse gasses and melting polar ice-caps wouldn't be affecting the world today?

Quote from: cheeba on November 26, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

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I don't know how you think Iraq is a "success", when the reasons we went over there turned out to be blatent lies.  When you get over 4,000 US troops killed, half a million civilians killed and 2 million displaced from a war based on lies, that's a mighty strange thing to consider a "success".  I guess it's all "Mission Accomplished" and "You're doing a great job, Bushie"!
Already been through this more than once. I don't care about WMD. I do care about having a democratic, mostly free, friendly major nation in the middle east. 

You have one; it's called Israel. They push people out of their homeland to suit their own needs, much like Bush (and his supporters) do. Hitler called it "Lebensraum" when he did the same to Poland. I forget Russia's reasoning with their occupation of eastern Europe.

Oh, and WMD was your justification to the world for the entry. If you were a lesser country (such as Iraq invading Kuwait for it's access to the Gulf), you would have had the entire United Nations come down on you. But you're a cowboy with nukes and the biggest bully in the playground, so what.

Quote from: cheeba on November 26, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

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Uh, hell no.  Iraq's offensive warmaking capabilities were non-existent in 2002.
I didn't say Iraq would make war with them. I said there would be some squabbles, as in some fighting across the borders would hit the news every so often. Twenty dead here, ten dead there, bombing of a market suspected by Iraqis or Iranians. It's their culture.

So why do we care about your students when they get shot up? I mean, it's in your culture. Also, how have you saved them from this "culture" with the invasion? I must have missed the memo, but the dying hasn't stopped. Sure, now it's your troops - who have been put in place to continue to bend a nations people against their collective will. Democracy at the end of a gun is no different than dictatorship. How many examples are there today with failed provisional governments, coup de-etats, and Presidents who have been put in place using terror to sway the vote of the populace? The entire country has to accept the value of a voting system for it to be effective; to do so under military pressure is no different than stripping a people of any choices.

As for the "Ah here you go again on the old 'if you support the war you must go out and fight' theme.": suck it up buttercup. A GT'er got hurt because of the irresponsible nature of your system of government. He's a soldier who has been put in a "make-work" project. There may be millions of people who are happy with the US occupation; there are more than a million who don't have a voice anymore.

A fire-fighter fights fire;
a crime-fighter fights crime.
WTF are you getting your freedom-fighters to do?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 08:06:47 PM by Purge » Logged

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cheeba
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« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2008, 08:55:29 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 30, 2008, 08:02:50 PM

So 120 Billion a year isn't noteworthy? Dismissive, ignoring the hard bottom line that money spent on explosives still goes boom.
$120 billion a year is certainly noteworthy. It's also going to what I believe is a good cause.
Quote
What, exactly is the point of that comment? Do you think that gas prices would still not have climbed, that greenhouse gasses and melting polar ice-caps wouldn't be affecting the world today?
I think gas prices would have gone up, but perhaps not as much or for as long. I think the high gas prices are mostly a positive, however, as they've broken us from the SUV craze and the American manufacturers are starting to concentrate on more fuel efficient vehicles. As for melting ice caps and global warming, bring it on. I'm tired of this early snow.
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You have one; it's called Israel. They push people out of their homeland to suit their own needs, much like Bush (and his supporters) do. Hitler called it "Lebensraum" when he did the same to Poland. I forget Russia's reasoning with their occupation of eastern Europe.
Ugh. Just ugh. Read some history. Those who were living in Israel had no more historical claim to that land than the jews did.
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But you're a cowboy with nukes and the biggest bully in the playground, so what.
Yippie ki-yay.
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So why do we care about your students when they get shot up? I mean, it's in your culture.
Just because it's part of the culture doesn't mean you don't work to change it or you don't care about it. I never said otherwise. I just stated that tribal/religious violence is indeed part of middle eastern culture. For some reason, that really raises y'all's heckles. "OMGZ he's GENERALIZING!" Yeah, I am. Violence is *still* part of the culture. Deal with it.
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Also, how have you saved them from this "culture" with the invasion?
Why do you insist on making this stuff up? Where have I said anything about saving them from this culture?
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I must have missed the memo, but the dying hasn't stopped.
Where did I say it has stopped? In fact, I said it would not stop because it's part of the goddamn culture!
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Sure, now it's your troops - who have been put in place to continue to bend a nations people against their collective will.
See the pictures above.
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Democracy at the end of a gun is no different than dictatorship. How many examples are there today with failed provisional governments, coup de-etats, and Presidents who have been put in place using terror to sway the vote of the populace?
I don't know, you tell me. Or are you like Brendan asking questions that you have no idea how to answer?
Quote
As for the "Ah here you go again on the old 'if you support the war you must go out and fight' theme.": suck it up buttercup. A GT'er got hurt because of the irresponsible nature of your system of government. He's a soldier who has been put in a "make-work" project. There may be millions of people who are happy with the US occupation; there are more than a million who don't have a voice anymore.
Kato's a hero, and I thank God for people like him every day. Unlike you, I don't believe he's completely useless over there. I think he and his fellow soldiers are having a positive impact on that nation and I think it will be a huge positive for the world.
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« Reply #50 on: November 30, 2008, 09:56:58 PM »

Quote from: CSL on November 30, 2008, 11:17:01 AM

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 06:03:08 AM

Saddam bears no responsibility? The people who kept Saddam in power bear no responsibility? Personally I'm of the mind that if you're under a tyrannical douchebag like Saddam Hussein then you should do every damn thing in your power to get rid of him. Those who did not do so bear some responsibility for Saddam's army shooting at American planes flying over the United Nations mandated No Fly Zone. They bear some responsibility for Saddam attempting to assassinate a former American president. They bear some responsibility for Iraq repeatedly defying United Nations mandates.

This is possibly the most fucked up thing I've heard you say. Sure you might be able to argue this kind of thing if Saddam had been elected, ala Adolf Hitler, but he wasn't.

The people bear no culpability Saddam's actions. To insiuate that they should have rose up to overthrow him is laughable at best. Sure you and maybe a few thousand others might have thought the same thing when Saddam got into power - he executed you well before the Iran-Iraq War. The Kurds also got that fancy idea after the Gulf War, remember, when they got a few assurances or at the very least the idea from the United States that Saddam had been weakened and could be dealt with. He gassed them.

This is possibly the stupidiest line of thought I've ever seen on these forums, so mind bogglingly stupid that you must have been drunk, intoxicated, or just plain fucking stupid. To suggest that because Saddam tried to have George Bush assassinated they share responsibility is mindboggling. If you're to go on that line of reasoning than every American shares responsibility for the rampantly illegal CIA move to oust Mohammed Mosaddeq, which directly led to the Iranian Revolution. Or I'll take it further, with that line of reasoning every white American bears some responsibility for slavery and the institutional racism that came after.

Of course, you simply forgot that since Saddam wasn't democratically elected - never was elected to anything - and to therefore even attempt to apportion blame to the wider populace is nothing less than sheer foolishness.

It's typical "blame the victim" bullshit.
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Brendan
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« Reply #51 on: November 30, 2008, 10:07:16 PM »

Iraq shouldn't have been wearing that short skirt.  It was totally asking for it.
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cheeba
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« Reply #52 on: November 30, 2008, 11:24:07 PM »

Whether or not someone living under tyranny has a responsibility to oppose it/run is just an opinion, and to each his own. But none of y'all are gonna take on Professor Salzman's opinion that violence is part of middle eastern culture, huh?
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« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2008, 12:32:56 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 06:03:08 AM

The people who kept Saddam in power

You realize that's the Reagan administration, right?
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2008, 12:53:20 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 11:24:07 PM

Whether or not someone living under tyranny has a responsibility to oppose it/run is just an opinion, and to each his own. But none of y'all are gonna take on Professor Salzman's opinion that violence is part of middle eastern culture, huh?

I did.  look again.  Or don't for all that it matters, since Opinions are not facts.

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cheeba
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« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2008, 12:57:28 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on December 01, 2008, 12:32:56 AM

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 06:03:08 AM

The people who kept Saddam in power

You realize that's the Reagan administration, right?
In part, yes. Also in part were the Republican Guard, the sunnis, baathists, etc.
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cheeba
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« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2008, 12:58:50 AM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on December 01, 2008, 12:53:20 AM

I did.  look again.  Or don't for all that it matters, since Opinions are not facts.
No, they are not facts, but there are opinions substantiated by better reasoning and evidence. When a professor of anthropology writes a book on the subject and argues that violence is a part of middle eastern culture, that carries more weight than someone arguing, "nuh uh, not everyone," which doesn't even really address the issue at all.
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2008, 01:35:15 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 01, 2008, 12:58:50 AM

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on December 01, 2008, 12:53:20 AM

I did.  look again.  Or don't for all that it matters, since Opinions are not facts.
No, they are not facts, but there are opinions substantiated by better reasoning and evidence. When a professor of anthropology writes a book on the subject and argues that violence is a part of middle eastern culture, that carries more weight than someone arguing, "nuh uh, not everyone," which doesn't even really address the issue at all.

The issue is that you are stereotyping.  How does pointing it out not address the issue of you stereotyping?

I mean if you are determined to ignore facts, I suppose anyone can reach any conclusion.  If you mean to ignore it, that's your problem.  It is not on me to prove anything here.  IT's not my job to prove your flawed premise
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« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2008, 04:30:57 PM »

I'm not surprised that Cheeba failed to address the forced voting, and continues to refer to violence as being a part of "their" culture when it's the US that initiated both military conflicts, rather than settling on diplomacy... you know, that thing with words?

But I suppose you (cheeba) don't recognize your own cultural need for violence; the cold war ends and rather than saying "wow, I'm glad THAT is over." your administration says "Keep those tanks warmed up; we'll find SOMEONE to use them against." Culturally you disavow responsibility for your actions, while claiming that you are defending your beliefs. In reality you are not defending your beliefs; you are forcing them on others. USA still considers it a crime to travel/deal with Cuba ... for what? Economic sanctions for three decades because they are socialist? It was less than a century where women wouldn't be able to work and you have somehow claimed the moral high-ground? Just look at where your "terrorists" got their training, look at Panama etc... you really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to foreign policy or diplomacy. The UN is created for a fair and equitable representation, and then you blatantly ignore them when you want to wage war? Bitch, please...

Don't bother with responding though, I think I'm done with this what-if scenario. We all know it was impossible for your government to leave them alone; I mean clearly you caught Bin Laden in Iraq so congrats on your win. Next time I think Cheeba should be held to his word that the conflict is the right thing by putting himself on the front lines... I mean, what's scarier than a right-wing troll?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 04:34:41 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2008, 06:11:15 PM »

Actually, I think we should have cheeba airdropped into North Korea immediately.  Once he explains to the brutally oppressed people there that all they need to do is oppose the dictator...or move away, I bet we'll have a flourishing democracy there in no time!

Then we can start tackling the problem of world hunger with his cunning "Just Go to the Store and Buy Food!" initiative.

-Autistic Angel
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cheeba
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« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2008, 07:07:17 PM »

Quote from: Purge on December 01, 2008, 04:30:57 PM

I'm not surprised that Cheeba failed to address the forced voting, and continues to refer to violence as being a part of "their" culture when it's the US that initiated both military conflicts, rather than settling on diplomacy... you know, that thing with words?
You are aware there was fighting in Iraq long before we were ever there, are you not Purge? I'm not sure you are, so please do not assume that was a rhetorical question. You have some knowledge of the history of the area, do you not?
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But I suppose you (cheeba) don't recognize your own cultural need for violence
Huh. So to you it's OK to say violence is part of American culture, but when someone says violence is part of middle eastern culture your little political correctness antennae go crazy. That's odd. I'd agree that violence is part of American culture. I'd also say that has nothing to do with my statement that violence is part of middle eastern culture, as middle eastern violence goes back long before America was a glint in a pilgrim's eye.
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Culturally you disavow responsibility for your actions
Where did I disavow responsibility? I'm just sayin' violence is part of middle eastern culture. Why do you keep making up stuff that I've supposedly said? Violence is part of middle eastern culture. That's it. Don't assume that means I disavow responsibility or that I say some culture isn't violent or that there aren't reasons for it or anything but that simple, little sentence.
Quote
USA still considers it a crime to travel/deal with Cuba ... for what?
Jesus Christ you're all over the place. When you're able to address a simple question, please let me know.
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cheeba
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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2008, 07:18:35 PM »

Quote from: Purge on December 01, 2008, 04:30:57 PM

I mean, what's scarier than a right-wing troll?
This is something I feel should be addressed as well. I am not a troll. I really believe what I am writing. I am just here to offer my opinion in a forum with people of similar tastes (gaming). I thought that's what this forum was about. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just here to talk. So relax and take a breath before you post and maybe try to be respectful of someone even if he has a different opinion than you.
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« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2008, 07:29:54 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 01, 2008, 07:18:35 PM

Quote from: Purge on December 01, 2008, 04:30:57 PM

I mean, what's scarier than a right-wing troll?
This is something I feel should be addressed as well. I am not a troll. I really believe what I am writing. I am just here to offer my opinion in a forum with people of similar tastes (gaming). I thought that's what this forum was about. I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just here to talk. So relax and take a breath before you post and maybe try to be respectful of someone even if he has a different opinion than you.

I generally don't chime in on a lot of cheeba posts, but he is square on the money on this one.  It's his opinion, whether misguided or not.  Others need to recognize that cheeba and others here (it's not just you, cheeba) have demonstrated through their series of posts that their opinions cannot and will not be changed, no matter how well your argument may be made.

Everyone is free to debate all they want, but realize that a lot of times you are typing at a wall.  If your goal is to change someone's mind, you ARE going to get very frustrated.

gellar
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« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2008, 07:32:25 PM »

Yes, time to stop making this thread personal toward cheeba.  If it keeps on (from either side) thread is going to be locked. 
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cheeba
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« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2008, 08:21:11 PM »

Quote from: gellar on December 01, 2008, 07:29:54 PM

Others need to recognize that cheeba and others here (it's not just you, cheeba) have demonstrated through their series of posts that their opinions cannot and will not be changed, no matter how well your argument may be made.
Uh, no. Depending on the issue, my opinion can certainly change. Someone will not change my mind on abortion or my religious beliefs, obviously (and so I don't tend to argue about them), but on other issues I can certainly be convinced to alter my opinion. I used to be against gay marriage, for instance. I'd be happy to change my opinion that violence is a part of middle eastern culture if someone were to post a convincing argument.
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« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2008, 09:08:30 PM »

Quote
violence is a part of middle eastern almost every culture... if someone were to post a convincing argument.

that do it for ya?

and i would possibly even change "culture" to ruling institution of a given size... i know if "culture" is viewed as divorced from the ruling body its much less violent for its own sake (and yes culture does NOT always feed back onto the ruling body as much as a governed people would like - the nature of being governed almost implies those governing often have a much greater impact on culture than the other way around)
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« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2008, 09:09:45 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 01, 2008, 08:21:11 PM

I'd be happy to change my opinion that violence is a part of middle eastern culture if someone were to post a convincing argument.

If you have not yet listened to people who would tell you there are entire countries, faith groups, and towns in the middle east that are not populated with militants and abhor violence as much as any Quaker might,  I say with all due respect that if in your shoes I wouldn't wait for people to invest their time and effort on this goal to your benefit.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 09:11:28 PM by the Nightbreeze » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2008, 09:21:01 PM »

Quote from: Purge on December 01, 2008, 04:30:57 PM

...it's the US that initiated both military conflicts, rather than settling on diplomacy... you know, that thing with words?
So the Iraqis just spawned in Kuwait?  

The question today is not about continuing the blame game as to who started what in this war.  That's the normal politico BS that they do at every level of government.  

The real question is how to extricate ourselves from this mess while leaving behind a stable government that doesn't result in the whole country/region dropping back into the pot.  An unplanned, unphased pullout leaves the entire nation with a power vacuum a lot larger than exists currently.  We don't need a carbon copy of our government to exist.  The Germans and the Japanese certainly don't have that.  

We went in for the wrong reasons.  Let's leave for the right ones.  Let's make sure that we leave behind a self-determining government that has the potential to serve its people in the best way possible.  Lets make sure that the people that have died and suffered did not do so in vain.  Let's give these people a chance.
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« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2008, 09:38:05 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 01, 2008, 08:21:11 PM

Quote from: gellar on December 01, 2008, 07:29:54 PM

Others need to recognize that cheeba and others here (it's not just you, cheeba) have demonstrated through their series of posts that their opinions cannot and will not be changed, no matter how well your argument may be made.
Uh, no. Depending on the issue, my opinion can certainly change. Someone will not change my mind on abortion or my religious beliefs, obviously (and so I don't tend to argue about them), but on other issues I can certainly be convinced to alter my opinion. I used to be against gay marriage, for instance. I'd be happy to change my opinion that violence is a part of middle eastern culture if someone were to post a convincing argument.

Evidence to the contrary.

In all seriousness - it's an opinion that would be difficult to change.  The subject matter is up to interpretation.

gellar
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« Reply #69 on: December 02, 2008, 05:09:13 AM »

Man, I just took offence to off-hand comments that amounted to "meh, it's THEIR culture". In the scenario played out by the OP, he was asking for the differences and where we felt the world would be, so Cheeba, your response is effectively -dead now, would have been dead anyways. First of all, the difference in body count from a few skirmishes to a full-scale invasion is staggering; the two are not anywhere close to the same. Secondly, to dismiss the deaths of victims - ANY victims - as a culture issue isn't intellectually responsible unless you can back it up. Unless we're talking about human sacrifice that is the edict of the governing body and accepted by the masses - think Mayan sacrifice ... or even early Christian animal sacrifices for that matter - and that they are part of the culture and by no means an illegal behaviour.

There is a stark difference between being a victimized populous who have grown jaded to random acts of violence due to a flaccid or uncaring government and having a culture that supports violent deaths at the whims of the few; the weeds are still not part of the garden even if they exist in the same space.

To suggest that carbombs, suicide bombers and the like are accepted and legal behaviours and that the US invaded them to save them from themselves and from all the injustice and dying is wildly misplaced. To state that it's an opinion is a sad defence to putting a little empathy towards the people you callously cast away in the husk of the word "culture". Those people, the ones who died? I'm pretty sure they were someone's kid. I certainly wouldn't appreciate it if someone wrote off my kids in such a manner. I'm guessing here, but the indifferent nature that we as North Americans take to the plight of the middle-eastern refugee and the way in which they were used by your prior administrations (and I don't know that Canada was involved, so I'm going to extend the responsibility to us for the sake of not looking like a finger-pointing exercise) is a root cause of the animosity.

The only people who's culture it is for the (not so) random acts of terror is the terrorists themselves; to suggest the 28 million people living there enjoy eating their dinner while hearing the local marketplace blow up seems pretty ridiculous, doesn't it? Here, let me put it to you another way - try adding death by explosion to the following article.

I don't want this to get uglier; I just want the point recognized. This really was my last attempt at getting it across. I'm not angry (anymore) ... I'm just baffled.

As to the troll comment - it seems like you were deliberately missing the essence of what I was saying to get a rise out of me. I have no idea if that is the case; it certainly looked that way.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2008, 06:11:51 AM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2008, 04:02:05 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 01, 2008, 07:18:35 PM

This is something I feel should be addressed as well. I am not a troll. I really believe what I am writing. I am just here to offer my opinion in a forum with people of similar tastes (gaming). I thought that's what this forum was about.

Spot on. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. smile

Quote from: cheeba
I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just here to talk. So relax and take a breath before you post and maybe try to be respectful of someone even if he has a different opinion than you.

Quote from: cheeba
[in response to me]Might have something to do with you bringing in irrelevant aspects of American culture into the discussion. The question was if Iran and Iraq would war if the US had not invaded Iraq. I said there'd inevitably be some fighting as it's part of middle eastern culture. That's when you relativists started talking about touching young boys and beating wives and apparently Purge thinks he owns land in Russia or something.

I've been following the thread, but the reason I never bothered to clarify my earlier post is precisely because you chose to be disrespectful towards me in your reply, so I saw little point in conversing further. Since you seem to have decided that respect is worth giving, let's give it a shot, eh?

My broader point (as others have made) is that to claim the Middle East is any different from the US as far as having violence be a part of their culture is simply not true. The US has a long history of wars throughout its short existence, just like the Middle East. Motivations may be different in some ways, but the violence is equally a part of both cultures. Both have a lot of support for capitol punishment, both have widespread militia-ish violence (gang/mafia violence in the US, gang/religious extremist violence in the Middle East), both have strong theocratic movements with violence and intimidation tactics conducted against atheists/non-majority religions, and both have a lack of control over weapon distribution and usage within national borders.

In other words, from what I see in a big-picture view, the claim that "violence is a part of middle eastern culture" is irrelevant because it's no different from our own issues.
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« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on December 02, 2008, 04:02:05 PM

Quote from: cheeba on December 01, 2008, 07:18:35 PM

This is something I feel should be addressed as well. I am not a troll. I really believe what I am writing. I am just here to offer my opinion in a forum with people of similar tastes (gaming). I thought that's what this forum was about.

Spot on. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. smile

Quote from: cheeba
I'm not insulting anyone, I'm just here to talk. So relax and take a breath before you post and maybe try to be respectful of someone even if he has a different opinion than you.

Quote from: cheeba
[in response to me]Might have something to do with you bringing in irrelevant aspects of American culture into the discussion. The question was if Iran and Iraq would war if the US had not invaded Iraq. I said there'd inevitably be some fighting as it's part of middle eastern culture. That's when you relativists started talking about touching young boys and beating wives and apparently Purge thinks he owns land in Russia or something.

I've been following the thread, but the reason I never bothered to clarify my earlier post is precisely because you chose to be disrespectful towards me in your reply, so I saw little point in conversing further. Since you seem to have decided that respect is worth giving, let's give it a shot, eh?

My broader point (as others have made) is that to claim the Middle East is any different from the US as far as having violence be a part of their culture is simply not true. The US has a long history of wars throughout its short existence, just like the Middle East. Motivations may be different in some ways, but the violence is equally a part of both cultures. Both have a lot of support for capitol punishment, both have widespread militia-ish violence (gang/mafia violence in the US, gang/religious extremist violence in the Middle East), both have strong theocratic movements with violence and intimidation tactics conducted against atheists/non-majority religions, and both have a lack of control over weapon distribution and usage within national borders.

In other words, from what I see in a big-picture view, the claim that "violence is a part of middle eastern culture" is irrelevant because it's no different from our own issues.

I haven't weighed in on this because it is really going nowhere. However I think that there has been a lot of generalization going on here. Look at current day events in both countries. Look at the people. Sure, there is violence in the US, it happens every day, read the paper. But it tends to be economic in nature or of a personal nature. (you always kill the one you love). It seems (and I have never been there) that in parts of the Arab world there still remains a wild west attitude that allows social, economic and personal problems to be resolved with violence that the state will turn it's back on. Treatment of women as an example. Violence against individuals seems to be more accepted for social purposes.

As for American religons, looking only at the present, when was the last time the Mormons killed people travelling thru Utah, or Babtists killed Mormons  going door to door, or Catholics attacked Jews. Or any religious group attacked a group of athiests.
In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day. Add the Kurds and Christians and violence between religious groups seems common.

The US will not change the Islamic/Arab way of doing things. Democracy will not lead to such changes. That is the BIG mistake we made going into Iraq.
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« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2008, 04:53:12 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day.

How often were they killing each other prior to the United States initiated invasion?
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« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2008, 05:12:43 PM »

source

Deaths attributed to violence for the months of June-August 2008.
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« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2008, 05:25:02 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on December 02, 2008, 04:53:12 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day.

How often were they killing each other prior to the United States initiated invasion?


My guess would be Saddam said who would die and if you didn't do what he said you went on the list............
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« Reply #75 on: December 02, 2008, 05:42:32 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 05:25:02 PM

Quote from: Brendan on December 02, 2008, 04:53:12 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day.

How often were they killing each other prior to the United States initiated invasion?


My guess would be Saddam said who would die and if you didn't do what he said you went on the list............

Your guess, huh?  If there were such a culture of violence, why would it matter what Saddam said?
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« Reply #76 on: December 02, 2008, 06:00:26 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

Look at current day events in both countries. Look at the people. Sure, there is violence in the US, it happens every day, read the paper. But it tends to be economic in nature or of a personal nature. (you always kill the one you love). It seems (and I have never been there) that in parts of the Arab world there still remains a wild west attitude that allows social, economic and personal problems to be resolved with violence that the state will turn it's back on. Treatment of women as an example. Violence against individuals seems to be more accepted for social purposes.

As for American religons, looking only at the present, when was the last time the Mormons killed people travelling thru Utah, or Babtists killed Mormons  going door to door, or Catholics attacked Jews. Or any religious group attacked a group of athiests.
In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day. Add the Kurds and Christians and violence between religious groups seems common.

I do understand these points, and I understand that it's the same points that Cheeba is making. My contention is that it doesn't matter. The problems with violence matter more to me than the motives behind them. Is it really more acceptable for a society to have to deal with widespread gang/mafia violence rather than religious extremist motivated violence? To me, both problems are serious, legitimate issues, and neither is somehow a "better" problem than the other.

We trade their religiously motivated violent bigotry for ethnic/homophobic-motivated violent bigotry (and non-violent religious bigotry).

I do agree that on a governmental level, too many of the middle eastern nations are still failing to provide rights and protections to religious minorities and women. It'd be silly of me to claim that they're not behind the curve on modernization in that regard.

I'm just contesting that the "violent culture" claims are overblown when you set aside wartime (i.e. resistance fighter) actions.
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« Reply #77 on: December 02, 2008, 06:10:53 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on December 02, 2008, 06:00:26 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

Look at current day events in both countries. Look at the people. Sure, there is violence in the US, it happens every day, read the paper. But it tends to be economic in nature or of a personal nature. (you always kill the one you love). It seems (and I have never been there) that in parts of the Arab world there still remains a wild west attitude that allows social, economic and personal problems to be resolved with violence that the state will turn it's back on. Treatment of women as an example. Violence against individuals seems to be more accepted for social purposes.

As for American religons, looking only at the present, when was the last time the Mormons killed people travelling thru Utah, or Babtists killed Mormons  going door to door, or Catholics attacked Jews. Or any religious group attacked a group of athiests.
In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day. Add the Kurds and Christians and violence between religious groups seems common.

I do understand these points, and I understand that it's the same points that Cheeba is making. My contention is that it doesn't matter. The problems with violence matter more to me than the motives behind them. Is it really more acceptable for a society to have to deal with widespread gang/mafia violence rather than religious extremist motivated violence? To me, both problems are serious, legitimate issues, and neither is somehow a "better" problem than the other.

We trade their religiously motivated violent bigotry for ethnic/homophobic-motivated violent bigotry (and non-violent religious bigotry).

I do agree that on a governmental level, too many of the middle eastern nations are still failing to provide rights and protections to religious minorities and women. It'd be silly of me to claim that they're not behind the curve on modernization in that regard.

I'm just contesting that the "violent culture" claims are overblown when you set aside wartime (i.e. resistance fighter) actions.



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« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2008, 06:13:21 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on December 02, 2008, 05:42:32 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 05:25:02 PM

Quote from: Brendan on December 02, 2008, 04:53:12 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day.

How often were they killing each other prior to the United States initiated invasion?


My guess would be Saddam said who would die and if you didn't do what he said you went on the list............

Your guess, huh?  If there were such a culture of violence, why would it matter what Saddam said?

The danger of someone taking you out because you took someone else out is a deterent....we aren't talking court of law here...

I imagine Hitler's Germany had a low incidence of murder (non-sanctioned) as well as Stalin's Russia.....
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« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2008, 06:18:43 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

As for American religons, looking only at the present, when was the last time the Mormons killed people travelling thru Utah, or Babtists killed Mormons  going door to door, or Catholics attacked Jews. Or any religious group attacked a group of athiests.
In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day. Add the Kurds and Christians and violence between religious groups seems common.

In Massachusetts, someone just spray painted a swastika on a temple sign.  I guess antisemitism is just part of the culture in the northeast; they don't value love and kindness the way we do.

Swastikas were also used to vandalize supporters of Barack Obama.  I guess antisemitism is just part of the culture among conservatives; they cherish hatred and anger in the way that we cherish puppies.

Oh look, spray painted over signs supporting California's ban on gay marriage.  Gay people who support gay marriage must also support Nazi fascism that would sentence them to death.  I guess self-loathing and suicide is just a part of their culture; they just don't love life the way we do.

God, look at all the spray painted swastika stories.  I guess cowardly, anonymous threats of violence is just how Americans work out their differences; they just don't value civilized discourse like we do.

-Autistic Angel
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