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Author Topic: So. If the US Hadn't Invaded Iraq...  (Read 7559 times)
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Scuzz
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« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2008, 06:52:11 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on December 02, 2008, 06:18:43 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

As for American religons, looking only at the present, when was the last time the Mormons killed people travelling thru Utah, or Babtists killed Mormons  going door to door, or Catholics attacked Jews. Or any religious group attacked a group of athiests.
In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day. Add the Kurds and Christians and violence between religious groups seems common.

In Massachusetts, someone just spray painted a swastika on a temple sign.  I guess antisemitism is just part of the culture in the northeast; they don't value love and kindness the way we do.

Swastikas were also used to vandalize supporters of Barack Obama.  I guess antisemitism is just part of the culture among conservatives; they cherish hatred and anger in the way that we cherish puppies.

Oh look, spray painted over signs supporting California's ban on gay marriage.  Gay people who support gay marriage must also support Nazi fascism that would sentence them to death.  I guess self-loathing and suicide is just a part of their culture; they just don't love life the way we do.

God, look at all the spray painted swastika stories.  I guess cowardly, anonymous threats of violence is just how Americans work out their differences; they just don't value civilized discourse like we do.

-Autistic Angel


The stories about Prop 8 in California go both ways......

Also I love how everyone always brings up the Nazi's and swastika's. As though they are a group like the Rotary or Lions Club. Look idiots are everywhere. Hate exists. But spray painting is not violence. Being anti-PC does not make violence.

I am sure there are better examples....go find them for me....you must have the time..
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2008, 08:15:59 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 06:52:11 PM

I am sure there are better examples....go find them for me....you must have the time..

If you are sure,  why are you not willing to do your own homework? 

Why is it always someone else's job around here?
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« Reply #82 on: December 02, 2008, 08:16:43 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 06:13:21 PM

Quote from: Brendan on December 02, 2008, 05:42:32 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 05:25:02 PM

Quote from: Brendan on December 02, 2008, 04:53:12 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day.

How often were they killing each other prior to the United States initiated invasion?


My guess would be Saddam said who would die and if you didn't do what he said you went on the list............

Your guess, huh?  If there were such a culture of violence, why would it matter what Saddam said?

The danger of someone taking you out because you took someone else out is a deterent....we aren't talking court of law here...

I imagine Hitler's Germany had a low incidence of murder (non-sanctioned) as well as Stalin's Russia.....

It seems that Godwin's law applies here too. Tongue

Nazi Germany had a very tight reign on their population... so did Russia. The horrendous crimes were being committed by the people above the law, not the general populace.

Quote
Hitler attempted to ensure that the Nazis were seen as a unique movement by discredting other nationalist and racialist political parties as being out of touch with the masses, especially lower-class youth, saying in 1922:

    The racialists were not capable of drawing the practical conclusions from correct theoretical judgements, especially in the Jewish Question. In this way the German racialist movement developed a similar pattern to that of the 1880s and 1890s. As in those days, its leadership gradually fell into the hands of highly honourable but fantastically naive men of learning, professors, district counsellors, schoolmasters, and lawyers - in short a bourgeois, idealistic and refined class. It lacked the warm breath of the nation's youthful vigour.[80]

Many scholars have discredited the Nazis' appeal to the working-class as neither being effective nor true in intent, and say that the Nazis were largely a movement of the middle-class.[81] Other scholars like Michael Burleigh have challenged this notion, claiming that there was a sizable number of working-class supporters of the Nazis.[82] Burleigh also claims that the financial situation of middle-class supporters must be considered, in that the economic situation of hyperinflation of currency in the 1920s smashed the financial situation of middle-class and caused high unemployment of middle-class people who previously held white-collar jobs.[83] Therefore, a larger percentage of declared middle-class support for the Nazis does not necessarily mean that a financially-stable middle-class supported the Nazis, but rather a financially-unstable middle-class.[84] In the early 1930s amid high unemployment and poverty in Germany, the Nazis emphasized their socialist policies by providing shelter and food to unemployed or homeless recruits to the SA.[85]

But hey, we're not talking about Nazis; that's a different culture entirely. slywink
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #83 on: December 02, 2008, 11:07:51 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 06:52:11 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on December 02, 2008, 06:18:43 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 04:33:32 PM

As for American religons, looking only at the present, when was the last time the Mormons killed people travelling thru Utah, or Babtists killed Mormons  going door to door, or Catholics attacked Jews. Or any religious group attacked a group of athiests.
In Iraq Sunni's and Shia kill each other every day. Add the Kurds and Christians and violence between religious groups seems common.

In Massachusetts, someone just spray painted a swastika on a temple sign.  I guess antisemitism is just part of the culture in the northeast; they don't value love and kindness the way we do.

Swastikas were also used to vandalize supporters of Barack Obama.  I guess antisemitism is just part of the culture among conservatives; they cherish hatred and anger in the way that we cherish puppies.

Oh look, spray painted over signs supporting California's ban on gay marriage.  Gay people who support gay marriage must also support Nazi fascism that would sentence them to death.  I guess self-loathing and suicide is just a part of their culture; they just don't love life the way we do.

God, look at all the spray painted swastika stories.  I guess cowardly, anonymous threats of violence is just how Americans work out their differences; they just don't value civilized discourse like we do.

-Autistic Angel

The stories about Prop 8 in California go both ways......

Also I love how everyone always brings up the Nazi's and swastika's. As though they are a group like the Rotary or Lions Club. Look idiots are everywhere. Hate exists. But spray painting is not violence. Being anti-PC does not make violence.

I am sure there are better examples....go find them for me....you must have the time..

...okay.

For clarity, I was posting examples of silly it is to try to pass judgment on large swaths of people based on anecdotal incidents that involve only a tiny percentage of them.  I thought that by using the same "evidence" to draw four wildly incompatible conclusions, it would provide an overly absurd parody of some of the ridiculously ethnocentric attitudes in this thread.

Since you appear to have drawn the conclusion that I think liberals, conservatives, gay people, and Americans are all pro-Nazi -- and that Barack Obama is Jewish -- I guess I should have been even less obtuse.

The point, Scuzz, is that picking out the worst behavior from a group and then shrugging, "Well, that's just part of their culture, it's how those people are," would surely lead you to assume that poor people teach their kids how to rob liquor stores rather than get jobs, white people teach their kids to hate and fear minorities, and sports fans are mostly drunk, violent yahoos who riot at the slightest provocation.

In reality, the broad and ill-defined groups identified as "poor people," "white people," and "sports fans" do not nurture crime, racism, or violence to any extent worthy of calling it "part of their culture."

When a car bomb detonates in the middle of Baghdad rush hour traffic, the students, engineers, accountants, and restaurant cooks maimed in the explosion are not taking pride in a long heritage of death.  Their friends and colleagues do not greet news of the destruction with a casual indifference, nor do their families dismiss their loss as a typical day in their culture of violence.

This kind of ethnocentric "those people aren't civilized like we are" nonsense has been propagated by ignorant fools and racists to dehumanize victims in conflicts throughout history, often to justify wanton carnage brought on by vague ideological grounds like "manifest destiny," "racial purity," or "spreading civilization."  If it wasn't true about the Native Americans, the Spanish, the Confederates, the Germans, the Hooverville residents, the Japanese, the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Communists, or the Romulans, what makes you so confident that this time you've finally picked out the *real* Culture of Death?

-Autistic Angel
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cheeba
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« Reply #84 on: December 02, 2008, 11:48:23 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on December 02, 2008, 11:07:51 PM

The point, Scuzz, is that picking out the worst behavior from a group and then shrugging, "Well, that's just part of their culture, it's how those people are," would surely lead you to assume that poor people teach their kids how to rob liquor stores rather than get jobs, white people teach their kids to hate and fear minorities, and sports fans are mostly drunk, violent yahoos who riot at the slightest provocation.
Political Correctness attacking intellectualism. Arguing that we shouldn't recognize that tribal/ethnic/religious violence is an aspect of middle eastern culture because some idiots may take a huge logical (mis)step into racism is plain anti-intellectualism. Can you truly understand black American culture if you don't recognize that a hugely disproportionate number of black men are in jails? Can your business run a successful advertising campaign in Italy without recognizing the machismo coveted by Italian men? Can you make an informed decision about strategy in Afghanistan without understanding the tribalism and warlord influence?

Look at the facts. There has been tribal/ethnic/religious fighting in the middle east pretty much since history was recorded. It is imperative that the United States understand this aspect of middle eastern culture if it is to be successful there.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #85 on: December 02, 2008, 11:50:14 PM »

I don't see the Arab/Muslim are the "real culture of death". I do think they look at things differently than we do. That is not good or bad. I think in the present day Arab/Muslim culture there is a strong, minority (probably) belief that the culture suffers because of the western culture. That the west has chosen the Jew over the Arab. That violence in response to this is okay.

I don't think they all think that way. When I was younger I knew a bunch of Palistinian's who attended the local college. They liked to drink, smoke, womanize and have a good time like any other college kid. But when it came to the middle east, they viewed it from a whole different angle than we did. They saw Israel and America's support of it as an unexplainable thing. They would never have killed anyone for their beliefs, but I do think they would have supported someone who did.

I started into this thread by disagreeing with  someone on the comparison of America and the Arab/Islam "culture" of violence. I believe the acceptance of social violence is different in the cultures. We can agree to dis-agree.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #86 on: December 02, 2008, 11:53:13 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 02, 2008, 11:48:23 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on December 02, 2008, 11:07:51 PM

The point, Scuzz, is that picking out the worst behavior from a group and then shrugging, "Well, that's just part of their culture, it's how those people are," would surely lead you to assume that poor people teach their kids how to rob liquor stores rather than get jobs, white people teach their kids to hate and fear minorities, and sports fans are mostly drunk, violent yahoos who riot at the slightest provocation.
Political Correctness attacking intellectualism. Arguing that we shouldn't recognize that tribal/ethnic/religious violence is an aspect of middle eastern culture because some idiots may take a huge logical (mis)step into racism is plain anti-intellectualism. Can you truly understand black American culture if you don't recognize that a hugely disproportionate number of black men are in jails? Can your business run a successful advertising campaign in Italy without recognizing the machismo coveted by Italian men? Can you make an informed decision about strategy in Afghanistan without understanding the tribalism and warlord influence?

Look at the facts. There has been tribal/ethnic/religious fighting in the middle east pretty much since history was recorded. It is imperative that the United States understand this aspect of middle eastern culture if it is to be successful there.


Cheeba, I think where we dis-agree is that based on what you just wrote we should never have gone into Iraq with the belief that we could somehow make them accept western democracy. The entire Iraq invasion and take over are based on false assumptions, which were exasperated by poor planning afterwards.
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cheeba
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« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2008, 12:59:18 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 02, 2008, 11:53:13 PM

Cheeba, I think where we dis-agree is that based on what you just wrote we should never have gone into Iraq with the belief that we could somehow make them accept western democracy. The entire Iraq invasion and take over are based on false assumptions, which were exasperated by poor planning afterwards.
There have been people arguing since before the war that because of the violence inherent in middle eastern culture that we have no business attempting to set up a democratic (or any other type of) government. That's been a valid criticism, in my view, and probably the best reason for not going to war. However, just because it is part of the culture doesn't mean it cannot be dealt with. It just has to be understood before it can be challenged. So far I think they're doing a good job.
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2008, 03:10:06 AM »

A Sensitivity to military occupation is not the same thing as being inherently violent.   And repeating a false premise will not make it true no mater how long that you persist.

Over and out. nothing happening here worth watching anymore.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2008, 09:23:20 PM »

However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[7]

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« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2008, 03:31:30 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 03, 2008, 09:23:20 PM

However, Godwin's Law itself can be abused, as a distraction or diversion, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent's argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate. A 2005 Reason magazine article argued that Godwin's Law is often misused to ridicule even valid comparisons.[7]

And the 7 means what? Or was that just a sloppy copy and paste?  icon_cool
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VynlSol
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« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2008, 05:26:46 AM »

Quote
Or was that just a sloppy copy and paste? 

Damn wikipedia! Damn them!
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Scuzz
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« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2008, 04:32:52 PM »

I think it meant that I suck when it comes to copy and paste..........7 times
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