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Author Topic: So. If the US Hadn't Invaded Iraq...  (Read 7576 times)
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ATB
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« on: November 24, 2008, 05:48:44 PM »

Where would we be?

Assuming the administration had committed all of its resources to Afghanistan and secured that nation 'completely' before branching out, what would the impacts have been to GWB and the US?

There's the obvious stuff like trillions of dollars back into the US treasury from fighting a war that would never have happened, but what else?

Osama captured?
'Successful' presidency for GWB? 
McCain as President Elect?
Iraq and Iran fighting another war?
Russia not rattling so many sabres?

Another US terrorist attack (no i'm not equating the war with Iraq with preventing another one..)

What do you folks think would be different?
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« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 06:06:03 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 24, 2008, 05:48:44 PM

What do you folks think would be different?

This thread would be titled "Should the US have invaded Iraq to prevent..."
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« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 06:10:11 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 24, 2008, 05:48:44 PM

Another US terrorist attack (no i'm not equating the war with Iraq with preventing another one..)

Well, if the first terrorist attack didn't work well enough to justify Middle East interventionism on the part of the US, then the PNAC guys would just have to stage another, wouldn't they?  icon_twisted
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« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2008, 06:43:07 PM »

We would be frustrated to still be in Afghanistan, but the American people would accept it much better than what has gone on with Iraq.

There would still be saber rattling towards Iraq but with Iran getting the bomb? both Iraq and the US would be looking at them.

Bush would be leaving the presidency dis-liked by the left but still with some respect. McCain may have won the presidency.
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« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2008, 07:51:33 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on November 24, 2008, 06:43:07 PM

We would be frustrated to still be in Afghanistan, but the American people would accept it much better than what has gone on with Iraq.

There would still be saber rattling towards Iraq but with Iran getting the bomb? both Iraq and the US would be looking at them.

Bush would be leaving the presidency dis-liked by the left but still with some respect. McCain may have won the presidency.

this sounds perfectly reasonable.  bush's approval rating wouldn't be approaching single digits. 

i have to wonder, how would this have affected the current economic crisis?  slowdown in housing market would still have occurred but would not big enough to drag down the big banks. 

biggest change would be not looking a dem controlled legislative branch though. 
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« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2008, 07:58:40 PM »

well with all the saber rattling that occurred shortly after iraq, i predict that had we not invaded iraq the title of this thread would have been

So.  If the US Hadn't Invaded Iran...

the only difference would be that every instance of "iraq" in atbs thread would have been replaced with "iran" and vice versa
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« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2008, 09:02:56 PM »

Sabres come with pretty weak scabbards.
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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2008, 09:44:06 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 24, 2008, 05:48:44 PM

Where would we be?
Between Mexico and Canada still.

Osama captured? - Highly unlikely. There's only so many people that can look.
'Successful' presidency for GWB? - Nope. Financial crisis woulda still hit. Personally I think Iraq is his biggest success.
McCain as President Elect? - Possibly. Hard to tell. I'm not so sure Obama beats Hillary if not for Iraq, early on anyways.
Iraq and Iran fighting another war? - At least some squabbles yeah.
Russia not rattling so many sabres? - They'd still be rattling sabres. They got some new money which is not really affected by Iraq, and they want to feel good about themselves.
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« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 10:13:48 AM »

We'd certainly have more resources to hold Afghanistan.  We're not hearing about it that much, but Afghanistan is a mess once again.
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 01:25:58 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 24, 2008, 09:44:06 PM


Osama captured? - Highly unlikely. There's only so many people that can look.


We would have far more resources to dedicate to keep the peace in Afganistan (which is a mess today) and more troops to look for Bin Ladin.  Would we have found him?  Who knows.  But the country would be more stable, and stablity/prosperity is a key to rooting him out.  We've only had 20-30k troops in Afganistan for a number of years now.  It'd be very interesting to see what we could have done with 50k-60k troops.  And because we wouldn't have pissed off the world by invading Iraq (more on that later), we'd probably have more cooperation throughout the region and with our allies.  We would have had far more resources to dedicate in hunting down Osama.  Simply put, Bush took his eye off the ball. 

Quote from: cheeba on November 24, 2008, 09:44:06 PM

'Successful' presidency for GWB? - Nope. Financial crisis woulda still hit. Personally I think Iraq is his biggest success.

First of all, if we weren't spending 10 Billion a month in Iraq over the last 4 years, we'd have far more money in which to stimulate the economy.  Also, gas prices probably wouldn't have risen as fast or as far, giving people more discretionary income this summer when the economy sorely needed it.  Governmental resources wouldn't have been so preoccupied on Iraq and it's likely that this financial mess could have been mitigated with earlier action.  So there are a lot of reasons to think the economy wouldn't be in such sad shape had we not gone into Iraq.

I don't know how you think Iraq is a "success", when the reasons we went over there turned out to be blatent lies.  When you get over 4,000 US troops killed, half a million civilians killed and 2 million displaced from a war based on lies, that's a mighty strange thing to consider a "success".  I guess it's all "Mission Accomplished" and "You're doing a great job, Bushie"! 

Do I think we would have had a successful Bush Presidency?  No, because I think the man is fundamentally flawed in that he has a preconceived agenda.  But without Iraq I think he wouldn't go down in history as one of the worst Presidents in US history (which he most definitely will) and the 2006 and 2008 elections would have gone far, far differently.  Essentially, the policies of the next 4 years (and the Dems continuing power from the huge new influx of young Democratic voters) are a direct result of a repudiation of Bush and the Republican party.  That wouldn't have happened without Iraq.

Quote from: cheeba on November 24, 2008, 09:44:06 PM

McCain as President Elect? - Possibly. Hard to tell. I'm not so sure Obama beats Hillary if not for Iraq, early on anyways.

We agree here.

Quote from: cheeba on November 24, 2008, 09:44:06 PM

Iraq and Iran fighting another war? - At least some squabbles yeah.

Uh, hell no.  Iraq's offensive warmaking capabilities were non-existent in 2002.  With no air force, few working modern tanks and no modern combat choppers, Iraq had no ability to fight a war.  They lived in fear of Iran.  Iran wouldn't have leaned on Iraq much at all, given the UN jurisdiction over much of Iraq.  They're not friendly, but don't consider them idiots either.

Quote from: cheeba on November 24, 2008, 09:44:06 PM

Russia not rattling so many sabres? - They'd still be rattling sabres. They got some new money which is not really affected by Iraq, and they want to feel good about themselves.

They probably would be sabre rattling, considering Putin's personality.  Of course, it's not like they haven't been provoked either.  Our decision to go into Iraq REALLY pissed them off and it's impossible to tell what we could have accomplished diplomatically with the worldwide goodwill from 9/11.  We squandered that when we went into Iraq and it's something in precious short supply right now. 
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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 08:37:32 PM »

What blackradar said.

Iran was always against the U.S. invasion of Iraq (as were most of Iraq's neighbors) so doubt any new war would have sparked up between them. We invaded them based off of lies because Dubya was thirsty for blood. He refused to give the weapons inspectors a chance to get their job done and if they had gotten the time they asked for, we'd learn the same thing we know now - they never had any WMD's.. although we wouldn't have wasted so many needless American lives and countless billions of our tax dollars on Dubya's war of choice.

Sad to think I voted for this moron back in 2000 when I was a diehard republican. He really changed the way I look at the republican party these days.
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« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2008, 09:26:57 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on November 25, 2008, 08:37:32 PM

if they had gotten the time they asked for, we'd learn the same thing we know now - they never had any WMD's..

Actually, we knew that before we went to war.

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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2008, 06:39:53 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 25, 2008, 01:25:58 PM

We would have far more resources to dedicate to keep the peace in Afganistan (which is a mess today) and more troops to look for Bin Ladin.
First part is irrelevant to the question. As for more troops to look, who's to say that would help? We don't know.
Quote
First of all, if we weren't spending 10 Billion a month in Iraq over the last 4 years, we'd have far more money in which to stimulate the economy.
The credit crisis would have still happened. The money we are spending on stimulating the economy is having questionable gains as is.
Quote
Also, gas prices probably wouldn't have risen as fast or as far, giving people more discretionary income this summer when the economy sorely needed it.
And less incentive to buy more fuel efficient cars. And less reason for the auto companies to begin retooling for higher mileage cars.
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I don't know how you think Iraq is a "success", when the reasons we went over there turned out to be blatent lies.  When you get over 4,000 US troops killed, half a million civilians killed and 2 million displaced from a war based on lies, that's a mighty strange thing to consider a "success".  I guess it's all "Mission Accomplished" and "You're doing a great job, Bushie"!
Already been through this more than once. I don't care about WMD. I do care about having a democratic, mostly free, friendly major nation in the middle east. 
Quote
Uh, hell no.  Iraq's offensive warmaking capabilities were non-existent in 2002.
I didn't say Iraq would make war with them. I said there would be some squabbles, as in some fighting across the borders would hit the news every so often. Twenty dead here, ten dead there, bombing of a market suspected by Iraqis or Iranians. It's their culture.
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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2008, 12:38:17 PM »

Afghanistan could have been that democratic, mostly free, friendly major nation in the middle east.  But we left them to the dogs after getting our "victory" there.  Things were actually pretty good, according to reports, after we took control of Afghanistan, with more coalition help of course (other nations were more willing to help there since it was clear that Afghanistan harbored the terrorist organizations that executed the 9/11 attacks).

I suspect part of Bush's motivation to invade Iraq was that we didn't expend enough military hardware in Afghanistan since it fell pretty easily, besides disrupting oil markets by going into Iraq we use up more military hardware and put more money into the military industrial complex.
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« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2008, 05:46:44 AM »

Quote from: Turtle on November 26, 2008, 12:38:17 PM

Afghanistan could have been that democratic, mostly free, friendly major nation in the middle east.  But we left them to the dogs after getting our "victory" there.  Things were actually pretty good, according to reports, after we took control of Afghanistan, with more coalition help of course (other nations were more willing to help there since it was clear that Afghanistan harbored the terrorist organizations that executed the 9/11 attacks).

1. Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East - it's in Central Asia and is so dissimiliar to Middle East countries that you're analogy would be as wrong as saying Algeria is a European country.

2. Regardless of whether or not Iraq had been invaded or not there is no way that Afghanistan would have been a free, democratic nation by this time even with the best of conditions. It just isn't going to happen. You can't even have women going to school without the occassional acid in the face issue, so why should we think a democracy would have prevailed by now without Iraq.

3. Leaving behind the issue that Afghanistan doesn't have the historical development that would naturally lead to a friendly democracy anytime soon, we won't have a stable Afghan government under we've removed the issue of transborder terrorism from Waziristan.

Quote from: Turtle
I suspect part of Bush's motivation to invade Iraq was that we didn't expend enough military hardware in Afghanistan since it fell pretty easily, besides disrupting oil markets by going into Iraq we use up more military hardware and put more money into the military industrial complex.

I also think you're wrong here. I think he actually throught that Iraq was a threat and that it would best serve American interests and the ability of democracy to flourish in the Middle East if he took out Saddam. Now the people under him certainly may have pushed the idea of war to him on far, far shaddier notions.
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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2008, 03:29:24 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 26, 2008, 06:39:53 AM

I didn't say Iraq would make war with them. I said there would be some squabbles, as in some fighting across the borders would hit the news every so often. Twenty dead here, ten dead there, bombing of a market suspected by Iraqis or Iranians. It's their culture.

Roll Eyes Yes, it's within their culture to do so; it has nothing to do with politics... they just expect people to die in naturally occurring car-bombings because it's a part of their rich social tapestry.

It has nothing to do with either power struggles, land ownership or the ever-present "You don't believe in my Easter Bunny/Santa/Savior, and since I have nothing and nowhere to go, I may as well join an extremist group and go threaten peoples lives".

But don't think we have extremists here. They all live far away. Like in the woods whilst writing manifestos, or shooting up schools. Yes, everything is foreign. Or the media's fault.
 
Take your pick, the generalization brush doesn't discriminate.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 03:31:21 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2008, 05:25:17 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 27, 2008, 03:29:24 PM


Take your pick, the generalization brush doesn't discriminate.

At what point does it become part of their culture? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? 2000 years? 5000 years? 

Let's not race to paint everything with the PC brush.
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2008, 04:59:00 AM »

Quote from: Purge on November 27, 2008, 03:29:24 PM

It has nothing to do with either power struggles, land ownership or the ever-present "You don't believe in my Easter Bunny/Santa/Savior, and since I have nothing and nowhere to go, I may as well join an extremist group and go threaten peoples lives".
Um, yeah... all of that is part of their culture.
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But don't think we have extremists here. They all live far away. Like in the woods whilst writing manifestos, or shooting up schools. Yes, everything is foreign. Or the media's fault.
Holy shit dude. You're equivocating Christians picketing the movie Dogma with the troubles in the middle east? Wow, man. Yeah it's totally like that. We got people who don't like Dogma so they go over to the theater with a nasty sign and whine and bitch and then go home and turn on the TV and watch People's Court. They have different religious sects often crossing borders blowing each other up daily. Yeah, that's pretty similar.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 27, 2008, 05:25:17 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 27, 2008, 03:29:24 PM


Take your pick, the generalization brush doesn't discriminate.

At what point does it become part of their culture? 100 years? 200 years? 500 years? 2000 years? 5000 years? 

Let's not race to paint everything with the PC brush.

Political correctness has nothing to do with extremists and middle-eastern conflict. Nor does that conflict have to do with "THEIR" culture; conflict is just as much a part of ours. Seriously, Adam, I would have expected more from you.

From cheeba, not so much.

And cheeba, what I'm saying is:

YOU SAVED IRAQ FROM THEMSELVES. CONGRATS! YOU SAVIOUR YOU! YOU MAY LIVE ON IN THE GLORY OF GOD.
YEP, THAT INVASION, hrmm,  WRONGFUL OCCUPATION, no, that's not right... I know! "SHOCK AND AWE" WAS A GREAT IDEA.
THERE WAS NO BETTER COURSE OF ACTION, AND THAT WAS THE BEST WAY TO HANDLE THE SITUATION.
NOT ONLY WAS IT MONEY WELL SPENT, BUT THERE IS ALSO A LOVELY NATION OF HAPPY PEOPLE WHO NOW
SWEAR FEALTY TO THE ENLIGHTENED CULTURES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
GO BUSH!

I can't find a rollyeyes big enough. This will have to do. Roll Eyes Fact of the matter is that you already had "friends" in the middle east; the motivation to go there was under blatantly false pretences and have done nothing more than put the lives of US soldiers at risk for some rich people to get richer, and the US populace to foot that bill.

Oh, and before someone decides to get all pissy about my attitude towards organized religion, it is my belief that god compelled me to use sarcasm, so to attack that is to attack my beliefs. You know, how those mosques were attacked after 911? No, you wouldn't recall that... it's not part of your culture.
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2008, 01:36:57 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Fact of the matter is that you ... have done nothing more than put the lives of US soldiers at risk for some rich people to get richer, and the US populace to foot that bill.
To argue that the US (and other nations') military has accomplished nothing is insulting and offensive, and displays a lack of education.





As for the culture thing, if you really want to argue that tribal/religious fighting has not been part of the middle eastern way of life for many, many, many years, that's your mistake to make.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2008, 01:40:52 PM by cheeba » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2008, 03:03:07 PM »

How many of the people in those photographs are dead, Cheeba?  What we've perpetrated in Iraq is like making a badly charred and inedible 3-egg omelette by breaking one million eggs.  Except that the eggs are people who've been killed because of this war.

The insanely high human cost of this conflict is something that you've always minimized, and that's truly the "insulting and offensive" behavior here. 

There's one thing we know:  If the US hadn't invaded Iraq, there'd be a million more Iraqis still alive, millions more would not have been displaced, and, of course, there'd be four thousand fewer dead and thirty thousand fewer wounded United States Soldiers.

I have no idea what cost is too high for your tone deaf Miley Cyrus vision, but for most educated people, we're long past that point.
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2008, 04:21:38 PM »

Awesome. Iraqis getting to cast meaningless votes is worth roughly a million lives? Ok...
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2008, 05:57:07 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on November 29, 2008, 03:03:07 PM

How many of the people in those photographs are dead, Cheeba?
I don't know, Brendan. How many of those people are dead?
Quote
There's one thing we know:  If the US hadn't invaded Iraq, there'd be a million more Iraqis still alive
How do you know this? From the mass graves Saddam filled with his enemies?
Quote
I have no idea what cost is too high for your tone deaf Miley Cyrus vision, but for most educated people, we're long past that point.
I don't know what cost is too high either. What cost is too high for freedom? Considering I'm one of those "live free or die" types, I would pay a pretty fucking high cost. If 1 million Americans had to die for the freedom of our nation, is it worth it? I would say yes, even if I were one of those million Americans. The Iraqis may of course have different values than I, so, unlike others, I'll not attempt to speak for them. It will probably take a generation before we truly know if it is/was worth it to them.
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2008, 06:28:11 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Yowza.

If you want to discuss US involvement over the decades in the ME that's one thing.  To say that religious extremism in the form of violence is not part of Middle Eastern culture is absurd.  Is it Middle Eastern counter-culturalism? Perhaps, but it's still apart of their culture.

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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2008, 07:23:19 PM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 06:28:11 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Yowza.

If you want to discuss US involvement over the decades in the ME that's one thing.  To say that religious extremism in the form of violence is not part of Middle Eastern culture is absurd.  Is it Middle Eastern counter-culturalism? Perhaps, but it's still apart of their culture.

Based on that same line of reasoning, shall we assume that you feel child molestation is a part of the culture in the Catholic church?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2008, 08:51:35 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 29, 2008, 07:23:19 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 06:28:11 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Yowza.

If you want to discuss US involvement over the decades in the ME that's one thing.  To say that religious extremism in the form of violence is not part of Middle Eastern culture is absurd.  Is it Middle Eastern counter-culturalism? Perhaps, but it's still apart of their culture.

Based on that same line of reasoning, shall we assume that you feel child molestation is a part of the culture in the Catholic church?

-Autistic Angel

Since SS is willing to group all "cultures" regardless of how diverse the beliefs are, I suppose we could hold all of christianity responsible for JUST the crimes committed by the catholic faith. After all, we're not splitting hairs between perpetrators and victims; why would we care if Jesus wore a blue hat or a red one?
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2008, 09:11:26 PM »

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:51:35 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 29, 2008, 07:23:19 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 06:28:11 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Yowza.

If you want to discuss US involvement over the decades in the ME that's one thing.  To say that religious extremism in the form of violence is not part of Middle Eastern culture is absurd.  Is it Middle Eastern counter-culturalism? Perhaps, but it's still apart of their culture.

Based on that same line of reasoning, shall we assume that you feel child molestation is a part of the culture in the Catholic church?

-Autistic Angel

Since SS is willing to group all "cultures" regardless of how diverse the beliefs are, I suppose we could hold all of christianity responsible for JUST the crimes committed by the catholic faith. After all, we're not splitting hairs between perpetrators and victims; why would we care if Jesus wore a blue hat or a red one?

Read again, both of you. Remember the expression counter-culuture? Kthxbye.

And saying something is a part of a culture does not mean that all people in that culture practice it. Comprende?
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« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2008, 10:04:02 PM »

If you wanted the analysis to go only a certain way, you might have started a thread based on facts and not on opinions and conjecture.

You're getting exactly what you deserve for trying to solve the world's vaugeries in only one internet thread
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« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2008, 10:24:26 PM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on November 29, 2008, 10:04:02 PM

trying to solve the world's vaugeries in only one internet thread

No doubt. You need at least three internet threads to solve the world's vaugeries.
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2008, 12:30:31 AM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 09:11:26 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:51:35 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 29, 2008, 07:23:19 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on November 29, 2008, 06:28:11 PM

Quote from: Purge on November 29, 2008, 08:32:30 AM

Yowza.

If you want to discuss US involvement over the decades in the ME that's one thing.  To say that religious extremism in the form of violence is not part of Middle Eastern culture is absurd.  Is it Middle Eastern counter-culturalism? Perhaps, but it's still apart of their culture.

Based on that same line of reasoning, shall we assume that you feel child molestation is a part of the culture in the Catholic church?

-Autistic Angel

Since SS is willing to group all "cultures" regardless of how diverse the beliefs are, I suppose we could hold all of christianity responsible for JUST the crimes committed by the catholic faith. After all, we're not splitting hairs between perpetrators and victims; why would we care if Jesus wore a blue hat or a red one?

Read again, both of you. Remember the expression counter-culuture? Kthxbye.

And saying something is a part of a culture does not mean that all people in that culture practice it. Comprende?

When some Catholic priests practice the molestation of children, are you saying that's emblematic of their culture, or their "counter-culture, but still a part of their culture"?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2008, 01:03:11 AM »

As a descendant of Mennonites, I can tell you that although my grand parents, great-grandparents and beyond all had their asses kicked without raising a hand in defence by invading forces- their pacifism is part of the culture but the violent nature of the conflicts brought upon them most certainly was NOT. My great-grandfather was a minister in a town in Russia - land gifted to them by Katherine the Great- who was then incarcerated during the revolution since a town leader no matter how insignificant, he was percieved to have "power" and eventually died in a Siberian camp.

So before you ride off into the sunset with your kthxbye bullshit and some gleaming white sword of righteousness blessed by the virgin mother of a zombie, you can put a little consideration to the fact that to suggest DYING in borderland skirmishes in what amounts to little more than modern-day fifedom does not a culture make.

But I could be wrong; perhaps you are acutely aware of why those naturally occurring deaths-by-violence are a cultural tradition of the middle-east rather than the overspilling of intolerance. How many years have you lived there?
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cheeba
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2008, 01:26:50 AM »

Quote from: Purge on November 30, 2008, 01:03:11 AM

you can put a little consideration to the fact that to suggest DYING in borderland skirmishes in what amounts to little more than modern-day fifedom does not a culture make.
Uh, great Mennonite? No one is saying religious/tribal violence "makes" middle eastern culture. We're just arguing that religious/tribal violence is part of middle eastern culture. Do you disagree? Simple yes/no will suffice.

Autistic, what about you? Yes/no? Or would you rather talk about who touches young boys?
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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2008, 03:32:44 AM »

And domestic violence is part of US culture.

I'm trying to figure out the point of this conversation now and it's just not making sense to me.
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2008, 03:49:56 AM »

Quote from: Farscry on November 30, 2008, 03:32:44 AM

I'm trying to figure out the point of this conversation now and it's just not making sense to me.
Might have something to do with you bringing in irrelevant aspects of American culture into the discussion. The question was if Iran and Iraq would war if the US had not invaded Iraq. I said there'd inevitably be some fighting as it's part of middle eastern culture. That's when you relativists started talking about touching young boys and beating wives and apparently Purge thinks he owns land in Russia or something.
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2008, 04:43:58 AM »

Cheeba. your opinions, which stereotype Middle Easten culture unflatteringly, are not facts.

There's imbalanced people who do awful things in every system of belief and region.

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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2008, 04:53:40 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 29, 2008, 05:57:07 PM

What cost is too high for freedom? Considering I'm one of those "live free or die" types, I would pay a pretty fucking high cost. If 1 million Americans had to die for the freedom of our nation, is it worth it? I would say yes, even if I were one of those million Americans. The Iraqis may of course have different values than I, so, unlike others, I'll not attempt to speak for them. It will probably take a generation before we truly know if it is/was worth it to them.

Cheeba, you may not have noticed, but we invaded Iraq - we're the ones who decided those million people's lives were worth sacrificing, not them.  It's pretty laughable that you'd say something like they "may of course have different values than I, so, unlike others, I'll not attempt to speak for them," given that we're the ones who're responsible for the entire fucking debacle, and that you, specifically, have lauded the decision to go in there and inflict this on them.

So maybe what's going on with Iraqi citizens is a little different than you sitting in suburban Michigan and pretending as though there's some scenario in which you might have to "die for the freedom of our nation."
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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2008, 05:22:34 AM »

Quote from: Purge on November 30, 2008, 01:03:11 AM

gleaming white sword of righteousness blessed by the virgin mother of a zombie

Finally I know what I want for xmas.
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cheeba
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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2008, 05:42:12 AM »

Quote from: the Nightbreeze on November 30, 2008, 04:43:58 AM

Cheeba. your opinions, which stereotype Middle Easten culture unflatteringly, are not facts.
OK, what evidence do you have to support this statement? As for my evidence, Philip Carl Salzman, professor of Anthropology and author of a book on the subject:
Quote
Conflicts within the Middle East cannot be separated from its peoples' culture. Seventh-century Arab tribal culture influenced Islam and its adherents' attitudes toward non-Muslims. Today, the embodiment of Arab culture and tribalism within Islam impacts everything from family relations, to governance, to conflict. While many diplomats and analysts view the Arab-Israeli dispute and conflicts between Muslim and non-Muslim communities through the prism of political grievance, the roots of such conflicts lie as much in culture and Arab tribalism.
I'll leave it at that, for the moment, and will post further evidence if needed.
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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2008, 05:49:28 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on November 30, 2008, 03:49:56 AM

Quote from: Farscry on November 30, 2008, 03:32:44 AM

I'm trying to figure out the point of this conversation now and it's just not making sense to me.
Might have something to do with you bringing in irrelevant aspects of American culture into the discussion. The question was if Iran and Iraq would war if the US had not invaded Iraq. I said there'd inevitably be some fighting as it's part of middle eastern culture. That's when you relativists started talking about touching young boys and beating wives and apparently Purge thinks he owns land in Russia or something.

 retard
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2008, 06:03:08 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on November 30, 2008, 04:53:40 AM

we're the ones who're responsible for the entire fucking debacle, and that you, specifically, have lauded the decision to go in there and inflict this on them.
Saddam bears no responsibility? The people who kept Saddam in power bear no responsibility? Personally I'm of the mind that if you're under a tyrannical douchebag like Saddam Hussein then you should do every damn thing in your power to get rid of him. Those who did not do so bear some responsibility for Saddam's army shooting at American planes flying over the United Nations mandated No Fly Zone. They bear some responsibility for Saddam attempting to assassinate a former American president. They bear some responsibility for Iraq repeatedly defying United Nations mandates.
Quote
So maybe what's going on with Iraqi citizens is a little different than you sitting in suburban Michigan and pretending as though there's some scenario in which you might have to "die for the freedom of our nation."
I've no idea what's going on with Iraqi citizens. That's why I'm not going to say if their costs are too high or not here. Looks like your bleeding heart doesn't prohibit you from doing the same.
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