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WarPig
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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2013, 07:34:39 PM »

That sounds like counterthink, citizen. Double-plus-ungood.
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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2013, 08:04:22 PM »

I think the bigger issue isn't his guilt or innocence - it's the fact that the events that have come to light aren't being focused on.

Sure, dude aired dirty laundry, and it sounds like it's something that he felt he had to do. Regardless of his own interests (having a beef with mgmt, etc) should not be condemnation of the whistle-blower - they're doing all this to discredit and otherwise distract from the real issues.

Chasing the white bronco ain't saving Ron Goldman or Nichole Brown - so is it that (y)our freedoms are already dead, and we just don't know it?
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« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2013, 08:30:28 PM »

I think folks just kind of knew that what Snowden brought to light was happening all along.  No one that I know was really shocked at the level of domestic covert surveillance.  Most of the more vitriolic outrage I've seen has been born out of partisanship.  The rest of the outrage feels almost forced.  It's like children finding out their parents have sex.  We KNEW they had to be doing it...we just would have preferred to remain in the dark about it....

....especially when you find the drawer full of those odd shaped sex toys that take D cell batteries for christ's sake.  D Cell?  What, you bringing a Narwhal into your sessions, guys?  It's like a Francis Bacon painting in my mind even after all these years.  You can't just UNsee that shit, you know!

Anyway, where was I? 

Oh yeah...

I'm not condoning the acts that have come to light.  And I'm actually kind of annoyed that none of it appears to be resulting in the kind of national dialog I feel we need in order to set the ground rules.  But I think the holier than thou belief we as a nation held during World War 2 and earlier conflicts in which we were pretty close to the guys in the white hats has started to fade away.  It's being replaced with a deep seated and almost tragic realization that this is how things are done in a world that contains the internet, phones that can be used almost anywhere and extremists willing to kill children to get what they want. 

I really do hope it changes though.  I'm not a big fan of that kind of world.
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« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2013, 07:04:27 AM »

That moment when you realize we might be the bad guys...
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« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2013, 02:40:44 PM »

"The" Bad Guys?

Not even close.
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« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2013, 07:23:51 PM »

Quote from: davidrobots on July 11, 2013, 07:04:27 AM

That moment when you realize we might be the bad guys...

I'm torn on how to even respond as I see where you're coming from, but I don't want to give our resident kitten the satisfaction of agreeing with him either.

All I know regarding this topic is that I'm personally grateful to Snowden for bringing to light what many of us (but not everyone in this country) thought was likely going on.

I can't imagine any of us are content with what is taking place.
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« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2013, 07:29:28 PM »

****initiate shield****
Incoming remark from hepcat regarding the fact that it would not give him satisfaction if we agree on something.
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« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2013, 07:41:00 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 11, 2013, 07:23:51 PM

I'm torn on how to even respond as I see where you're coming from, but I don't want to give our resident kitten the satisfaction of agreeing with him either.

Quote from: Eco-Logic on June 24, 2013, 09:10:28 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 24, 2013, 09:08:42 PM

I'm torn.  

On the one hand, our government shouldn't be performing this much data collection on its own citizens and Snowden may have created an opening for a much needed dialog on what we're prepared to sacrifice for security in a post 911 world in which the internet and cellular phones are the medium for terrorist attacks and other criminal activity.

On the other, Snowden DID reveal national security secrets and may have placed at jeopardy our best hope for preventing future attacks/stopping truly horrendous crimes.

I think at the end of the day, Snowden did the wrong thing for the right reasons and it's going to result in both good and bad things happening.  What the outcome will be remains to be seen.
Wow.  I agree completely.  smile

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 11, 2013, 07:48:33 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 11, 2013, 07:38:55 PM

The reason you didn't find a thread on this issue in Off Topic is because it's borderline R&P now...and will most certainly cross the line sooner rather than later anyway.

With that in mind...

The Stand Your Ground law is inherently flawed and too ambiguous to exist within the legal system.  I have no issue with self defense, but the initial use of that law in the early days of the case drove that point home for me.

As for Zimmerman, a trial was necessary in light of the fact that a 17 year old kid was shot and killed by someone who was explicitly told NOT to confront someone who was NOT breaking any laws by a representative of the police.  If no trial had taken place, it would weaken any future attempts to challenge self defense cases with similar circumstances. 

Whether or not he should be found guilty of anything is up to the jury that has been exposed to far more facts surrounding the case than any of us.

I would also add that groups on both sides of the fence regarding the case have acted despicably on more than one occasion.

I agree completely.
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« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2013, 01:43:07 PM »

He's now seeking asylum in Russia. I hope he sees the irony.
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« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2013, 07:22:47 PM »

Quote from: Lee on July 12, 2013, 01:43:07 PM

He's now seeking asylum in Russia. I hope he sees the irony.
he probably does... since he has been trying nearly every South American country first?
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« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2013, 10:42:23 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 11, 2013, 02:40:44 PM

"The" Bad Guys?

Not even close.

Well...in many places the US is 'THE' bad guy.  
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« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2013, 10:48:19 PM »

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« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2013, 03:17:19 AM »

Quote from: ATB on July 13, 2013, 10:42:23 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 11, 2013, 02:40:44 PM

"The" Bad Guys?

Not even close.

Well...in many places the US is 'THE' bad guy.  

And in many places it isn't.
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2013, 03:14:44 PM »

Edward Snowden nominated for Nobel Peace Prize

Quote
The Swedish internet service provider that once hosted the machines behind Wikileaks is nominating NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Bahnhof, a builder of futuristic-looking data centers based in Stockholm, will make the purely symbolic nomination in its latest quarterly financial report, set to be released when European financial markets open on Tuesday.

The U.S. has charged Snowden with theft and espionage for leaking secret documents that outline the National Security Agency’s domestic surveillance programs. But to many, he’s a heroic whistleblower who has shone a light on a shadowy and excessive government effort to track our personal behavior online.
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2013, 03:23:11 PM »

I nominate Finn from Adventure Time.  Now, if only I had a bunch of money to back that nomination up...
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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2013, 04:38:44 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 14, 2013, 03:17:19 AM



And in many places it isn't.

Given that we tried to convince Russia to hand him over by pinky swearing we wouldn't torture or kill him, I'd say our reputation might be a bit tarnished at the moment.
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2013, 04:47:04 PM »

That we had to promise not to do something awful that the country we were negotiating with has a proven track record of doing 27 times before breakfast is no indication that it was ever going to happen.

But then again look at the well documented torture of Manning!
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« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2013, 05:20:47 PM »

He got 112 days days knocked off his sentence for that.
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« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2013, 05:26:10 PM »

Yeah, I was surprised to find that while looking for any substantial evidence of torture of american citizens .  

I still don't believe we're the villainous country that some would like us to believe, though.  We do the same crap that most countries have done or are doing.  The only difference is that we're one of the biggest kids on the block and we're supposed to be better than that.  However, the reality is that the world sometimes forces us to do things we don't want to in order to protect ourselves.  Not an excuse, but it's not damning either.

I'm not willing to flatly state that we're evil, that's all I'm saying.   Every single person on earth is capable of doing some pretty heinous things in order to defend themselves.  Government's are just guilty of the same shortcomings.  But I think the fact that our citizens are able to call our government out when these things happen shows that we're not Stalinist Russia.
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« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2013, 05:43:55 PM »

After reading about Operation Gladio, we resort to dirty tricks on a regular basis, even against allies.  There's an old chestnut that I heard that stated the only countries we don't spy on are Britain, Canada, and Australia, and I'm not even sure if that's true. 

We seek advantage wherever we can, because the Soviets were certainly doing it, and you know that the militant factions of whatever group pull no punches. 

The myth of American exceptionalism in terms of a moral high ground is just that, a myth.  I've said it before.  There's a line there somewhere as to what we should and shouldn't do, but I have no idea where it is.  And not knowing the full truth of what we're up against, I imagine that I never will.
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« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2013, 05:46:45 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 27, 2013, 05:43:55 PM

There's a line there somewhere as to what we should and shouldn't do, but I have no idea where it is.  And not knowing the full truth of what we're up against, I imagine that I never will.

This
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« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2013, 05:49:49 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 05:26:10 PM

 However, the reality is that the world sometimes forces us to do things we don't want to in order to protect ourselves.  

I agree. But the rest of the sometimes is us sticking our noses uninvited where it has no business.
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« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 27, 2013, 05:43:55 PM

After reading about Operation Gladio, we resort to dirty tricks on a regular basis, even against allies.  There's an old chestnut that I heard that stated the only countries we don't spy on are Britain, Canada, and Australia, and I'm not even sure if that's true. 

We seek advantage wherever we can, because the Soviets were certainly doing it, and you know that the militant factions of whatever group pull no punches. 

The myth of American exceptionalism in terms of a moral high ground is just that, a myth.  I've said it before.  There's a line there somewhere as to what we should and shouldn't do, but I have no idea where it is.  And not knowing the full truth of what we're up against, I imagine that I never will.

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...
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« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2013, 09:50:02 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 27, 2013, 05:43:55 PM

After reading about Operation Gladio, we resort to dirty tricks on a regular basis, even against allies.  There's an old chestnut that I heard that stated the only countries we don't spy on are Britain, Canada, and Australia, and I'm not even sure if that's true. 

We seek advantage wherever we can, because the Soviets were certainly doing it, and you know that the militant factions of whatever group pull no punches. 

The myth of American exceptionalism in terms of a moral high ground is just that, a myth.  I've said it before.  There's a line there somewhere as to what we should and shouldn't do, but I have no idea where it is.  And not knowing the full truth of what we're up against, I imagine that I never will.

Of course it isn't true, we spy on EVERYBODY, ourselves included. We even have our spies spy on each other. Moreso now than ever before and until people realize it and become determined to stop it we always will.
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« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2013, 09:58:09 PM »

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...

Vietnam, Korean War, Bay of Pigs, McCarthyism, HUAC, the arm's race, the spying (numerous and well documented)....

I fail to see how we were trying in any way to live up to a golden standard during the Cold War.  Heck, the feds, as ordered by Robert Kennedy, taped almost every single phone conversation of people like Dr. Martin Luther King because our government was afraid of what "the nation's most dangerous negro" could do to capitalism.  If anything, it was far worse back then.
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« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2013, 10:23:38 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 09:58:09 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...

Vietnam, Korean War, Bay of Pigs, McCarthyism, HUAC, the arm's race, the spying (numerous and well documented)....

I fail to see how we were trying in any way to live up to a golden standard during the Cold War.  Heck, the feds, as ordered by Robert Kennedy, taped almost every single phone conversation of people like Dr. Martin Luther King because our government was afraid of what "the nation's most dangerous negro" could do to capitalism.  If anything, it was far worse back then.

You think that now because you don't know. Your kids and grandkids (or mine) will look back and realize it is even worse when the truth eventually finds a way out. Of course they may be very well saying exactly what you are in denial of how bad it will be by then. With capabilities constantly improving it is a natural progression absent an actual determination to reverse it. I have seen nothing to indicate that there is any determination to do that at this point in history. Someday perhaps, or at least we can hope so.

I think that is the epiphany that made 1984 such a good book. Just that the pace was accelerated to make it a more exciting and concerning story. 1984 is coming it is just going to be far later than that, probably not even in our lifetime but we are certainly far closer today than we were when the book was written and will be even closer by the time all of us have died. Barring of course some major event that reverses our course.
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« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2013, 10:35:29 PM »

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 10:23:38 PM


You think that now because you don't know.

And you think that now because you don't know your history.
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« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2013, 11:16:00 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 10:35:29 PM

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 10:23:38 PM


You think that now because you don't know.

And you think that now because you don't know your history.

It isn't a matter of history so much as what I know about what we are doing now, and Snowden's revelations are but the tip of the iceberg. We can come back and argue over who was right or wrong in 30 or 40 years.
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« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2013, 12:59:17 AM »

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 11:16:00 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 10:35:29 PM

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 10:23:38 PM


You think that now because you don't know.

And you think that now because you don't know your history.

It isn't a matter of history

It is when you insist that things are worse now then they've ever been. 
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« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2013, 01:10:07 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2013, 12:59:17 AM

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 11:16:00 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 10:35:29 PM

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 10:23:38 PM


You think that now because you don't know.

And you think that now because you don't know your history.

It isn't a matter of history

It is when you insist that things are worse now then they've ever been. 

I guess it depends on whether you consider more intel gathering worse. I do and perhaps you do not, or perhaps you think that despite an increased ability to gather intel the government is now much more trusting so chooses to not actually use that capability? I won't even explore the possibilty that there is not an increased capability because that is just silly talk.
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« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2013, 01:19:42 AM »

It's silly talk because you don't want to believe it.  I know you got a partisan bug up your ass but try not to conveniently forget that this shit is just a continuation of what started under bush.  It's been going on for longer than even that in one form or another.   You may not believe it, but it doesn't change the truth.
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« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2013, 01:22:53 AM »

Having thought for a few minutes trying to figure out your process on this I think I may finally have figured out what it is that we differ on when it comes to this subject.

Do you perhaps think that Nixon and all those Cold War leaders were just paranoids and din't respect privacy etc and that now our leaders are enlightened to the point that they now while having the ability to gather more intel restrain themselves based on a sense of right and wrong, due process, and limited government. Such that while they may not like what some people are saying but will only engage in collecting intel on them if they have substantial evidence that the person is engaged in a plot against our government?
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« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2013, 01:31:59 AM »

You probably want to keep thinking a bit more.  I've repeatedly said it's crappy.  I just don't agree it's getting worse.  And I especially don't agree that it's getting worse under our current administration.  That doesn't magically morph into "hepcat believes Obama is doing the right thing!" though.  It just means that this crap has been happening for ages.  The technology to do it has become more refined, but so has our ability to discover when it does happen (which is why this thread even exists).

I'm fairly certain that were this the day after the invention of the telegraph, you'd be saying the same thing.  Unless the administration was one you voted for, that is.
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« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2013, 03:04:13 AM »

Crap, I don't care about all that. It is a question of capabiltiy as a matter of technology and the affordabilty of it.

That is what always has and always will be the one true limit to intelligence gathering. Always has always will as they say.

It transcends politicians who get replaced, people who die, and even governments that fall.

At some point pretty much everywhere outside and many places inside are going to be monitored pretty much 24x7. From near or far via CCTV/Drone advanced satellite.

Of course the bright side is if some psycho wants to lay waste to a school full of little kids maybe the cops will be able to meet him at the door.

I can't even say whether it is better or worse just how I feel about it, a little of both I suppose, but to me it is scientific evolution. A lot of the evolution of science I love, this one not so much.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent because I know you are talking about whether it is the fault of us or them. I just don't really think it matters, they are both heading the same direction on a one way street.
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« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2013, 04:18:18 AM »

Quote from: Moliere on August 27, 2013, 03:14:44 PM


No, he wasn't. Some random person saying "this guy should win the Nobel Peace Prize!" doesn't actually nominate you for the prize.
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2013, 04:22:54 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 27, 2013, 05:43:55 PM

There's an old chestnut that I heard that stated the only countries we don't spy on are Britain, Canada, and Australia, and I'm not even sure if that's true. 

Of course that's not true. Everyone spies on everyone.

Quote
The myth of American exceptionalism in terms of a moral high ground is just that, a myth.  I've said it before.  There's a line there somewhere as to what we should and shouldn't do, but I have no idea where it is.  And not knowing the full truth of what we're up against, I imagine that I never will.

America has never had clean hands. Our treatment of the Native Americans alone is as bad as most of what we condemned communist countries for during the Cold War. We spent decades knocking over third world leaders and replacing them with our puppets, even if that meant financing brutal oppression of local populations. We backed the apartheid regime in South Africa, which was, of course, morally abhorrent.

However, America has also done amazing good in the world, often when there was little benefit to us, geopolitically. For all our mistakes of recent years, and all the bad we've done before, it still remains that most of the time throughout history that someone has looked up and seen troops with American flags on their uniforms streaming into their city it's meant their lives were about to get better, not worse.
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Fireball
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2013, 04:25:45 AM »

Quote from: Rip on August 27, 2013, 10:23:38 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 09:58:09 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...

Vietnam, Korean War, Bay of Pigs, McCarthyism, HUAC, the arm's race, the spying (numerous and well documented)....

I fail to see how we were trying in any way to live up to a golden standard during the Cold War.  Heck, the feds, as ordered by Robert Kennedy, taped almost every single phone conversation of people like Dr. Martin Luther King because our government was afraid of what "the nation's most dangerous negro" could do to capitalism.  If anything, it was far worse back then.

You think that now because you don't know.

I consider the blanket recording of all calls of targeted individuals like Dr. King, who were targeted because of their (relatively anodyne) domestic policy agenda, far more troubling than the NSA creating a vast catalogue of cell phone call metadata for everyone in the country.
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hepcat
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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2013, 01:01:22 PM »

Quote from: Rip on August 28, 2013, 03:04:13 AM

I can't even say whether it is better or worse just how I feel about it, a little of both I suppose, but to me it is scientific evolution. A lot of the evolution of science I love, this one not so much.

That's a rationale I can understand, if not fully support when it comes to the conclusions you draw.
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2013, 02:28:36 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2013, 01:01:22 PM

Quote from: Rip on August 28, 2013, 03:04:13 AM

I can't even say whether it is better or worse just how I feel about it, a little of both I suppose, but to me it is scientific evolution. A lot of the evolution of science I love, this one not so much.

That's a rationale I can understand, if not fully support when it comes to the conclusions you draw.

and not many would support that level of monitoring. That is why it only works in baby steps so the change over a lifetime seems small to those living it. But if a society heads down a road always going the same direction how fast they go doesn't change the destination. Just when you arrive there.
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« Reply #79 on: August 28, 2013, 03:00:05 PM »

Sorry, Obama. There Were No "Other Avenues" for Snowden's Whistle-Blowing.

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But, contrary to what the president seems to think, Edward Snowden wasn’t concerned that the NSA was “improperly” collecting information on hundreds of millions of Americans. He was concerned that the government was collecting information on hundreds of millions of Americans. And how exactly does the president think Snowden should have raised that concern?

Snowden’s former employer, Booz Allen, which requires employees to report “all suspected violations of the law” and cautions them to “take care to not report a violation to someone that [they] believe is involved in the matter.”

Well, nearly everyone Edward Snowden worked for—up to and including the president of the United States—was involved in the matter. So, again, whom exactly should he have gone to with his concerns?
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