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Eco-Logic
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« on: June 24, 2013, 08:01:22 PM »

No thread about him yet?  The cat and mouse is fun to watch. 

Will we catch him?

I've no doubt he is a criminal, and that he should be brought to justice. 

I'm glad he revealed what he revealed though, which makes me torn over my opinion of what his future should hold.   What say you Carrot Top?
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« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2013, 09:08:42 PM »

I'm torn. 

On the one hand, our government shouldn't be performing this much data collection on its own citizens and Snowden may have created an opening for a much needed dialog on what we're prepared to sacrifice for security in a post 911 world in which the internet and cellular phones are the medium for terrorist attacks and other criminal activity.

On the other, Snowden DID reveal national security secrets and may have placed at jeopardy our best hope for preventing future attacks/stopping truly horrendous crimes.

I think at the end of the day, Snowden did the wrong thing for the right reasons and it's going to result in both good and bad things happening.  What the outcome will be remains to be seen.
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« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2013, 09:10:28 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 24, 2013, 09:08:42 PM

I'm torn. 

On the one hand, our government shouldn't be performing this much data collection on its own citizens and Snowden may have created an opening for a much needed dialog on what we're prepared to sacrifice for security in a post 911 world in which the internet and cellular phones are the medium for terrorist attacks and other criminal activity.

On the other, Snowden DID reveal national security secrets and may have placed at jeopardy our best hope for preventing future attacks/stopping truly horrendous crimes.

I think at the end of the day, Snowden did the wrong thing for the right reasons and it's going to result in both good and bad things happening.  What the outcome will be remains to be seen.
Wow.  I agree completely.  smile
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« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 09:13:58 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 24, 2013, 09:08:42 PM

Snowden did the wrong thing for the right reasons

I like that part best  thumbsup
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« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 09:18:51 PM »

Anti-Anti is pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mXBco65t4g   slywink
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« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2013, 09:19:53 PM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on June 24, 2013, 09:13:58 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 24, 2013, 09:08:42 PM

Snowden did the wrong thing for the right reasons

I like that part best  thumbsup

aka
The end justifies the means. Yeah, that never backfires.  icon_wink
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« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2013, 09:55:08 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 24, 2013, 09:18:51 PM

Anti-Anti is pretty good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mXBco65t4g   slywink

icon_lol
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM »

Does saying that that government is doing something = espionage?

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

I'm not sure how providing an eyewitness account of something = treason.

(Congress commits treason every day- selling out the country to corporate interests. Let's prosecute them instead.)
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« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2013, 11:04:34 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM

Does saying that that government is doing something = espionage?

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

I'm not sure how providing an eyewitness account of something = treason.

(Congress commits treason every day- selling out the country to corporate interests. Let's prosecute them instead.)

From what I remember reading he did not have the requisite access rights to even view said information, so it's probably not so good for him.
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« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2013, 03:40:06 AM »

Quote from: ATB on June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM

Does saying that that government is doing something = espionage?

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

I'm not sure how providing an eyewitness account of something = treason.


When this story first broke I agreed with this. Criminal or not, he revealed something that it's important for citizens to know.

Since then, though, his globetrotting has the look of selling state secrets. The case for treason gets stronger with every flight he takes. Right now I'm vacillating between "whistleblower" and "traitor."

One story speculated that his ultimate destination is Cuba. If I were trying to avoid rendition, I don't think I'd head for the same island as Gitmo.
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« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2013, 04:15:02 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on June 25, 2013, 03:40:06 AM

Quote from: ATB on June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM

Does saying that that government is doing something = espionage?

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

I'm not sure how providing an eyewitness account of something = treason.


When this story first broke I agreed with this. Criminal or not, he revealed something that it's important for citizens to know.

Since then, though, his globetrotting has the look of selling state secrets. The case for treason gets stronger with every flight he takes. Right now I'm vacillating between "whistleblower" and "traitor."

One story speculated that his ultimate destination is Cuba. If I were trying to avoid rendition, I don't think I'd head for the same island as Gitmo.

Not sure why wanting to avoid capture from a corrupt and constitution violating government is additional evidence for treason, but to each his own.
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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2013, 07:36:49 AM »

Quote from: ATB on June 25, 2013, 04:15:02 AM

Quote from: Ironrod on June 25, 2013, 03:40:06 AM

Quote from: ATB on June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM

Does saying that that government is doing something = espionage?

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

I'm not sure how providing an eyewitness account of something = treason.


When this story first broke I agreed with this. Criminal or not, he revealed something that it's important for citizens to know.

Since then, though, his globetrotting has the look of selling state secrets. The case for treason gets stronger with every flight he takes. Right now I'm vacillating between "whistleblower" and "traitor."

One story speculated that his ultimate destination is Cuba. If I were trying to avoid rendition, I don't think I'd head for the same island as Gitmo.

Not sure why wanting to avoid capture from a corrupt and constitution violating government is additional evidence for treason, but to each his own.

My concern is with what information he's bargaining with his hosts. It's one thing to show American citizens what our government is up to. Explaining the details to governments who don't like us takes it to a different level. Maybe he's just passing through without briefing our rivals, but I doubt it.
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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2013, 11:29:12 AM »

Quote from: ATB on June 25, 2013, 04:15:02 AM


Not sure why wanting to avoid capture from a corrupt and constitution violating government is additional evidence for treason, but to each his own.

I hear Obama drinks the blood of infants for his power too.
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2013, 11:47:39 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 24, 2013, 09:08:42 PM

I'm torn. 

On the one hand, our government shouldn't be performing this much data collection on its own citizens and Snowden may have created an opening for a much needed dialog on what we're prepared to sacrifice for security in a post 911 world in which the internet and cellular phones are the medium for terrorist attacks and other criminal activity.

On the other, Snowden DID reveal national security secrets and may have placed at jeopardy our best hope for preventing future attacks/stopping truly horrendous crimes.

I think at the end of the day, Snowden did the wrong thing for the right reasons and it's going to result in both good and bad things happening.  What the outcome will be remains to be seen.

OMG.   I agree.

 eek
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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2013, 11:48:56 AM »



Upon further reflection, it shouldn't surprise us that we agree.    This is an issue that most Americans *should* agree on.    We don't want our government blanket collecting data on us and monitoring our lives.

Benjamin Franklin had a quote for this sort of thing.
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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 12:39:12 PM »

But we also need to realize what is behind that process.  It's not an attempt to create an Orwellian state (in spite of what alarmists would like you to believe), it was an attempt to increase our security in this frightening new world of extremists who have no qualms with attacking civilians on our own soil.  

It's another case of doing the wrong thing for the right reason.

Thankfully, we live in a country in which this WILL result in a serious and sober discussion of what we're willing to sacrifice for security.  We can give everyone the assurance that they will never be a part of any data collection process performed in the name of national security...but they have to be aware of and comfortable with the simple truth that that means we probably WILL miss the signs of an attack or other hostile action at some point.  

I don't envy the lawmakers that are going to have to work through this one.
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« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2013, 02:06:58 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 25, 2013, 11:29:12 AM

Quote from: ATB on June 25, 2013, 04:15:02 AM


Not sure why wanting to avoid capture from a corrupt and constitution violating government is additional evidence for treason, but to each his own.

I hear Obama is drinks the blood of infants for his power too.

Think big picture, Hep. This long pre-dates Obama.  He's just expanding it far beyond what would have shocked and dismayed liberals just 6 years ago...but as a few have said, it all changes depending on who is in office.

I won't be saying it's okay once a repub gets back into office or Lord willing an independent (feel free to track me on that AA).

Quote
It's not an attempt to create an Orwellian state (in spite of what alarmists would like you to believe), it was an attempt to increase our security in this frightening new world of extremists who have no qualms with attacking civilians on our own soil.

And like we've discussed elsewhere, there are some things that the government should not be allowed to do in the name of safety.  

Trying to identify external threats at the expense of the rights of citizenry is not a great compromise.

Quote
 We can give everyone the assurance that they will never be a part of any data collection process performed in the name of national security...but they have to be aware of and comfortable with the simple truth that that means we probably WILL miss the signs of an attack or other hostile action at some point.  

Hostile action is going to happen again regardless.  How much are we willing to give up to delay the inevitable?

I don't know what the answer is, but domestic spying through the mass collection of private data of us citizens isn't it.
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« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2013, 02:10:39 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on June 25, 2013, 07:36:49 AM


My concern is with what information he's bargaining with his hosts. It's one thing to show American citizens what our government is up to. Explaining the details to governments who don't like us takes it to a different level. Maybe he's just passing through without briefing our rivals, but I doubt it.

Fair point.  Hopefully he's a 'patriot' and not a 'spy'.

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« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2013, 02:13:50 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 25, 2013, 02:06:58 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 25, 2013, 11:29:12 AM

Quote from: ATB on June 25, 2013, 04:15:02 AM


Not sure why wanting to avoid capture from a corrupt and constitution violating government is additional evidence for treason, but to each his own.

I hear Obama is drinks the blood of infants for his power too.

Think big picture, Hep. This long pre-dates Obama.  He's just expanding it far beyond what would have shocked and dismayed liberals just 6 years ago...but as a few have said, it all changes depending on who is in office.

The Obama joke was in reply to your constant need to demonize government instead of trying to be reasonable and figure out why they're doing what they're doing.

Quote
And like we've discussed elsewhere, there are some things that the government should not be allowed to do in the name of safety.  

And like I said, figuring out just what should be allowed should be discussed.

Quote
Trying to identify external threats at the expense of the rights of citizenry is not a great compromise.

What is a good compromise?  I hate to keep repeating myself, but my point was "figuring out just what should be allowed should be discussed".

Quote
Hostile action is going to happen again regardless.  How much are we willing to give up to delay the inevitable?

And again, "figuring out just what should be allowed should be discussed".

Quote
I don't know what the answer is, but domestic spying through the mass collection of private data of us citizens isn't it.

Which is why I said, "figuring out just what should be allowed should be discussed".

I'm guessing you wanted to agree with me, but felt the need to reiterate almost everything I wrote in your words.   icon_wink


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« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2013, 03:04:47 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 25, 2013, 02:13:50 PM

I'm guessing you wanted to agree with me, but felt the need to reiterate almost everything I wrote in your words.   icon_wink

That's usually the case.  icon_razz

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« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2013, 03:13:19 PM »



Citizens should always eye government with a suspicious eye.    In fact, the people working at the NSA and those in charge of these government agencies should, in the right universe, look at these policies and double check themselves (are we doing the wrong thing here?   should we perhaps tread cautiously when looking internally?   are we upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States?   are we violating the spirit of the Constitution even if we THINK we are following proceedure?)

Unfortunately some of these agencies are on islands and seem to view themselves as having authority to do things beyond what the public and voters believe they should have.   The images of a hoard of cops beating the shit out of a guy on the street in the 1990s come to mind.    The police are overwelmingly good people that got into it for the right reason.    However, power corrupts.... and when left unchecked it is dangerous.
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2013, 03:38:40 PM »

I don't agree that this is an example of corruption.  I think that is the go to answer for way too many things and it ends up trivializing the real issues.  This wasn't Watergate in which the end goal was one man's wishes.  This was a case of "what are we prepared to do to prevent another 911".  I know it's easier to view everyone involved as Snidely Whiplash, twirling their mustache as they plan on how to steal the widow's farm; but it's more like an overly strict father that needs to be told to loosen the reigns a bit (and yes, I know THAT is a case of trivializing the issue...but it was the most apropos analogy I could come up with at the moment).  
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2013, 04:43:11 PM »

I'm in complete agreement with a lot of what you guys are saying.  He's the guy who said "I know this ruins my life, but somebody has to say something".  I admire him for that.  That said, leaking state secrets is a bad thing.   In the end, if I had but one choice, I'd say we err on the side of caution and not discourage whistleblowers with a lesser sentence or a non-pursuit sort of thing.  He's in the wind - we leave him there. 
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2013, 08:04:04 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 25, 2013, 11:29:12 AM

Quote from: ATB on June 25, 2013, 04:15:02 AM


Not sure why wanting to avoid capture from a corrupt and constitution violating government is additional evidence for treason, but to each his own.

I hear Obama drinks the blood of infants for his power too.

I told him how to do it properly; before he was using any old infant but then I told him infants from South America had more kick in their blood.
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« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2013, 08:11:50 PM »



I'm sure the intent of the program is to make America safe and obviously we all agree that isn't a bad thing.   The potential for abuse with this type of system is huge though.  I personally hope Snowden succeeds in avoiding being apprehended and doesn't leak anything else.
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« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2013, 08:23:09 PM »

Ron Paul is being sensationalist for the sake of his constituents with that quote.  Simple fact is that Snowden DID reveal national secrets and he did it in a way that the international community learned just as much as we did at the same time as us.  I stick by what I said above, but I don't believe that indicting Snowden for espionage is any kind of proof that the government views its citizens as the enemy. 
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« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2013, 08:23:17 PM »

Ron Paul's understanding of espionage is incorrect, from a legal sense.
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« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2013, 08:35:41 PM »

Ron Paul is just still upset about this.
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« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2013, 12:42:56 AM »

I heard they have proof that he is fleeing Russia on horseback:

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« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2013, 12:56:45 AM »

I don't really agree with Paul either.  I just thought the quote was interesting.
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2013, 12:57:00 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 26, 2013, 12:42:56 AM

I heard they have proof that he is fleeing Russia on horseback:

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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2013, 10:01:43 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

He has revealed information on our hacking attempts against China:

Quote from: ZDNet
The former technican for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and contractor for the NSA had provided documents revealing attacks on [Chinese] computers over a four-year period, South China Morning Post (SCMP) reported on Sunday.

The documents had listed operational details of specific attacks on computers including Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, dates of attacks and whether a computer was still being monitored remotely.

IMO that takes him pretty clearly from possible whistle blower to very clearly a traitor.

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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2013, 10:06:58 PM »

Quote from: ydejin on June 26, 2013, 10:01:43 PM

Quote from: ATB on June 24, 2013, 10:17:06 PM

I must have missed it, but did he provide specifics about techniques or just  relate things that he saw?  Saying we spy on phones vs saying how it is done specifically...

He has revealed information on our hacking attempts against China:

Quote from: ZDNet
The former technican for the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and contractor for the NSA had provided documents revealing attacks on [Chinese] computers over a four-year period, South China Morning Post (SCMP) reported on Sunday.

The documents had listed operational details of specific attacks on computers including Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, dates of attacks and whether a computer was still being monitored remotely.

IMO that takes him pretty clearly from possible whistle blower to very clearly a traitor.



Yep that is where the line was crossed in my mind as well.
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2013, 10:22:16 PM »

Still a hero to me. Any one here listen to Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast? It's great political stuff (very non-partisan) and he really enunciates well why Snowden is a hero. Has he said anything that everyone doesn't already know? We know the government spies on us, we know the US hacks China. Hopefully this will lead to changes but I suspect not. Hell, he had to go to a British newspaper for his big reveal because there is no longer a news organisation in the US that hasn't been a co-opted. Did you hear David Gregory suggest to Glen Greenwald that perhaps he should be charged, simply for doing his job as an investigative journalist? Shocking. Perhaps if more US news organisations stopped collaborating with the government and doing their jobs which is to report to us the things the government doesn't want us to know then we'd have a much more trustworthy government.
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2013, 10:44:23 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on June 26, 2013, 10:22:16 PM

Still a hero to me. Any one here listen to Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast? It's great political stuff (very non-partisan) and he really enunciates well why Snowden is a hero. Has he said anything that everyone doesn't already know? We know the government spies on us, we know the US hacks China. Hopefully this will lead to changes but I suspect not. Hell, he had to go to a British newspaper for his big reveal because there is no longer a news organisation in the US that hasn't been a co-opted. Did you hear David Gregory suggest to Glen Greenwald that perhaps he should be charged, simply for doing his job as an investigative journalist? Shocking. Perhaps if more US news organisations stopped collaborating with the government and doing their jobs which is to report to us the things the government doesn't want us to know then we'd have a much more trustworthy government.

Wow Canuck, where have you been.  Great observations.
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This signature is not personal, at all.  If you're not awake enough to realize our country is being taken down by an organized effort from a puppet chimp being controlled by a movement older than me.  Wake the freaking fack up.
Moliere
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2013, 11:02:05 PM »

2009 Snowden would have shot 2013 Snowden in the balls.

Quote
< TheTrueHOOHA>    WTF NYTIMES
< TheTrueHOOHA>    Are they TRYING to start a war?
Jesus christ
they're like wikileaks
< User19>    they're just reporting, dude.
< TheTrueHOOHA>    They're reporting classified shit
< User19>    shrugs
< TheTrueHOOHA>    about an unpopular country surrounded by enemies already engaged in a war
and about our interactions with said country regarding planning sovereignity violations of another country
you don't put that shit in the NEWSPAPER
< User19>    meh
< TheTrueHOOHA>    moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this?
< TheTrueHOOHA>    those people should be shot in the balls.
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ydejin
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2013, 11:23:18 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on June 26, 2013, 10:22:16 PM

Still a hero to me. Any one here listen to Dan Carlin's Common Sense podcast? It's great political stuff (very non-partisan) and he really enunciates well why Snowden is a hero. Has he said anything that everyone doesn't already know? We know the government spies on us, we know the US hacks China. Hopefully this will lead to changes but I suspect not. Hell, he had to go to a British newspaper for his big reveal because there is no longer a news organisation in the US that hasn't been a co-opted. Did you hear David Gregory suggest to Glen Greenwald that perhaps he should be charged, simply for doing his job as an investigative journalist? Shocking. Perhaps if more US news organisations stopped collaborating with the government and doing their jobs which is to report to us the things the government doesn't want us to know then we'd have a much more trustworthy government.

There was no point in releasing information on the IP addresses of computers we are trying to hack into in China other than for Snowden to ingratiate himself with the Chinese government.  When you have a security clearance and you release top secret information not for the betterment of society but to ingratiate yourself with a rival government that pretty clearly makes you a traitor.  So regardless of what other good he might have done ultimately he is a traitor.

Requesting a security clearance and then releasing the information you gained from it for all but the highest purposes shows a real lack of morals.  Using the information for your own personal benefit as Snowden did in China is morally repugnant.  
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gellar
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2013, 11:42:07 PM »

It's entirely possible he is both.
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Moliere
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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2013, 03:08:55 PM »

In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A.

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The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long, reveal that the court has taken on a much more expansive role by regularly assessing broad constitutional questions and establishing important judicial precedents, with almost no public scrutiny, according to current and former officials familiar with the courtís classified decisions.

The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.

A secret court issuing secret rulings for a secret data collection agency to collect even more secret information. What could go wrong?
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2013, 03:32:56 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on July 08, 2013, 03:08:55 PM

In Secret, Court Vastly Broadens Powers of N.S.A.

Quote
The rulings, some nearly 100 pages long, reveal that the court has taken on a much more expansive role by regularly assessing broad constitutional questions and establishing important judicial precedents, with almost no public scrutiny, according to current and former officials familiar with the courtís classified decisions.

The 11-member Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, known as the FISA court, was once mostly focused on approving case-by-case wiretapping orders. But since major changes in legislation and greater judicial oversight of intelligence operations were instituted six years ago, it has quietly become almost a parallel Supreme Court, serving as the ultimate arbiter on surveillance issues and delivering opinions that will most likely shape intelligence practices for years to come, the officials said.

A secret court issuing secret rulings for a secret data collection agency to collect even more secret information. What could go wrong?

 icon_eek

Seriously....where the hell is this country going?!
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