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ATB
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« Reply #80 on: August 28, 2013, 03:19:49 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on August 28, 2013, 03:00:05 PM

Sorry, Obama. There Were No "Other Avenues" for Snowden's Whistle-Blowing.

Quote
But, contrary to what the president seems to think, Edward Snowden wasn’t concerned that the NSA was “improperly” collecting information on hundreds of millions of Americans. He was concerned that the government was collecting information on hundreds of millions of Americans. And how exactly does the president think Snowden should have raised that concern?

Snowden’s former employer, Booz Allen, which requires employees to report “all suspected violations of the law” and cautions them to “take care to not report a violation to someone that [they] believe is involved in the matter.”

Well, nearly everyone Edward Snowden worked for—up to and including the president of the United States—was involved in the matter. So, again, whom exactly should he have gone to with his concerns?

Begs the question: did he go through Booz Allen's channels first?

If I had been him, I probably wouldn't have trusted those either.
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« Reply #81 on: August 28, 2013, 03:37:57 PM »

Booz.... <snicker>
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« Reply #82 on: August 28, 2013, 06:16:12 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 09:58:09 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...

Vietnam, Korean War, Bay of Pigs, McCarthyism, HUAC, the arm's race, the spying (numerous and well documented)....

I fail to see how we were trying in any way to live up to a golden standard during the Cold War.  Heck, the feds, as ordered by Robert Kennedy, taped almost every single phone conversation of people like Dr. Martin Luther King because our government was afraid of what "the nation's most dangerous negro" could do to capitalism.  If anything, it was far worse back then.

Civil Rights movement, Gay rights movement, Women's rights movement, Indian reparations, Japanese internment reparations, Peace Corps.  I don't think there's any way in hell the Civil Rights movement happens without the Cold War and the need to show that our brand of freedom was better than communism, and that laid the groundwork for all the rest.
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« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2013, 06:24:32 PM »

As I've said before, there are three branches of government.  There are Congressional oversight committees, and there is the judicial system through which he could have sued anonymously.
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« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2013, 10:28:35 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 28, 2013, 06:24:32 PM

anonymously.

Surely you jest.
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« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2013, 10:56:58 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 28, 2013, 06:24:32 PM

As I've said before, there are three branches of government.  There are Congressional oversight committees, and there is the judicial system through which he could have sued anonymously.

You have a lot of faith in the "system" that a lot of people don't. Snowden was sitting on reams of information showing the US monitors just about every form of communication beyond smoke signals. He knows what's happened with NSA whistleblowers in the past. At that point, who does he feel safe contacting? How do you look at that much information and not feel there has to be some collusion from all branches of the government?

A congressman (even a Rep wanting to score points on Obama) would sell Snowden's ass out the moment it became politically prudent. They have a vested interest in the status quo because it fills their coffers during their time in office and gets them jobs on the college/lecture/lobbying circuit once they're out. Even now, after the brief initial show of indignation for the cameras, most of their concern is making sure a leak like this doesn't happen again. Ooo, and look over there: Syria <whew>!!

Anonymously through the judicial?  He's staring at data saying there is no more "anonymous", and judges are deferring more and more to enforcement agencies. For every point brought up in court the government attorneys would giggle amongst themselves and whisper "national security", at which point the judge nods and strikes said point from the record.

Going through any US-based civil rights groups or newspaper would have the FBI blowing in the doors of said group because OMG terrorism! Sure, the NYT will cry out demanding answers, but after a few weeks of congressman from both sides of the aisle showing up on Fox News saying they needed to contain this information (because, again, OMG terrorism!) people will soon move on to the Miley twerking controversy.

Snowden went forward with this information in the only way he felt would accomplish some change. "Checks and balances" is dead, except for the checks those in power are getting to maintain their balances.
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« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2013, 11:02:04 PM »

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 28, 2013, 06:16:12 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 09:58:09 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...

Vietnam, Korean War, Bay of Pigs, McCarthyism, HUAC, the arm's race, the spying (numerous and well documented)....

I fail to see how we were trying in any way to live up to a golden standard during the Cold War.  Heck, the feds, as ordered by Robert Kennedy, taped almost every single phone conversation of people like Dr. Martin Luther King because our government was afraid of what "the nation's most dangerous negro" could do to capitalism.  If anything, it was far worse back then.

Civil Rights movement, Gay rights movement, Women's rights movement, Indian reparations, Japanese internment reparations, Peace Corps.  I don't think there's any way in hell the Civil Rights movement happens without the Cold War and the need to show that our brand of freedom was better than communism, and that laid the groundwork for all the rest.

I think you need to read up a bit on your history.  Take for instance the NAACP attempting to get rid of segregation during WWII.  Though the Civil Rights movement existed well before that even.  But during the Cold War, African Americans weren't invited to march and protest.  Far from it.  They had to break the law to do it.  How is that a sign of American good will and an attempt to lead by example?  As I mentioned earlier, their own government was spying on prominent members of the Civil Rights movement to boot.

The Women's Rights movement began in the mid 1800's in the U.S..  They didn't get a boost from the Cold War.  Some strides may have been made during that time, but to say it was because of the Cold War is just not true.

The Gay Rights movement was not having a heyday during the Cold War in America.  I have no clue where you got that idea.  Homosexual baiting was a trusted tool of intimidation during the Cold War.  Wanna discredit a suspected dissident?  Accuse him of being gay.

No, my friend.  During the Cold War, the United States was accusing people of being commies left and right (or, if they REALLY wanted to smear them, they accused them of being cross dressing transvestites), making deals with shady governments in order to "stop the red menace", and generally doing what sovereign nations do when they feel threatened.  It was not a golden age of morality.  Almost everything you mention happened in spite of the Cold War, not because of it. 

...but I will give you the Peace Corps.  That was a fantastic bit of PR on Kennedy's part.   icon_wink
« Last Edit: August 28, 2013, 11:26:26 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2013, 11:14:35 PM »

I don't have faith in the system, I'm just saying that there were more options available than what have been explored by Manning, Snowden, etc.  We can't really assess their effectiveness if they've never been attempted, now can we?
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« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2013, 11:46:12 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 28, 2013, 11:14:35 PM

I don't have faith in the system, I'm just saying that there were more options available than what have been explored by Manning, Snowden, etc.  We can't really assess their effectiveness if they've never been attempted, now can we?

My problem with that is there was plenty of opportunity for your options to come to the fore when Binney and Co. came forward. There are 535 members of the Congressional Branch with the temerity to wear the flag pin on their lapel that should have followed up on this information and fought this fight. While I agree we can't know exactly what would have happened should Snowden have attempted those options, I do think he could make a pretty accurate guess.

We also agree here on another thing: I too would rather be watching hockey. icon_wink
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« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2013, 12:02:57 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 28, 2013, 11:02:04 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 28, 2013, 06:16:12 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 09:58:09 PM

Quote from: Pyperkub on August 27, 2013, 09:34:17 PM

During the Cold War however, we actually tried to live up to it - the GWoC (global war on communism) kind of demanded it.  We acknowledged that we weren't perfect, and tried to be an example.  Now we're more like Capitalism, YAY!  There is nothing we won't do for a dollar...

Vietnam, Korean War, Bay of Pigs, McCarthyism, HUAC, the arm's race, the spying (numerous and well documented)....

I fail to see how we were trying in any way to live up to a golden standard during the Cold War.  Heck, the feds, as ordered by Robert Kennedy, taped almost every single phone conversation of people like Dr. Martin Luther King because our government was afraid of what "the nation's most dangerous negro" could do to capitalism.  If anything, it was far worse back then.

Civil Rights movement, Gay rights movement, Women's rights movement, Indian reparations, Japanese internment reparations, Peace Corps.  I don't think there's any way in hell the Civil Rights movement happens without the Cold War and the need to show that our brand of freedom was better than communism, and that laid the groundwork for all the rest.

I think you need to read up a bit on your history.  Take for instance the NAACP attempting to get rid of segregation during WWII.  Though the Civil Rights movement existed well before that even.  But during the Cold War, African Americans weren't invited to march and protest.  Far from it.  They had to break the law to do it.  How is that a sign of American good will and an attempt to lead by example?  As I mentioned earlier, their own government was spying on prominent members of the Civil Rights movement to boot.

The Women's Rights movement began in the mid 1800's in the U.S..  They didn't get a boost from the Cold War.  Some strides may have been made during that time, but to say it was because of the Cold War is just not true.

The Gay Rights movement was not having a heyday during the Cold War in America.  I have no clue where you got that idea.  Homosexual baiting was a trusted tool of intimidation during the Cold War.  Wanna discredit a suspected dissident?  Accuse him of being gay.

No, my friend.  During the Cold War, the United States was accusing people of being commies left and right (or, if they REALLY wanted to smear them, they accused them of being cross dressing transvestites), making deals with shady governments in order to "stop the red menace", and generally doing what sovereign nations do when they feel threatened.  It was not a golden age of morality.  Almost everything you mention happened in spite of the Cold War, not because of it. 

...but I will give you the Peace Corps.  That was a fantastic bit of PR on Kennedy's part.   icon_wink

Actually, you are mistaken.  While there were a ton of Civil Rights abuses during the Cold War, I don't see any way that the Civil Rights Act passes without the need to look good to the Third World:

Quote
Yet one aspect of the Civil Rights movement has always been neglected in the conventional history of the movement. This was its connection to the Cold War. For America to win the Cold War, Civil Rights was a necessity. Continuing domestic discrimination against non-white minorities would make it impossible to win over the newly-free Third World.

Politicians at the time understood this very well, and it wasn’t as if they kept this fact secret. Presidents, such as Harry Truman, explicitly linked the Cold War to America’s race relationships. They put it in their speeches. They put it in their political advertisements.

You could also try this one = The Effect of the Cold War on African-American Civil Rights: America and the World Audience, 1945-1968

As to Women's and Gay Rights, etc, there was a concerted push after the Civil Rights movement in both of those areas- the Equal Rights Amendment movement for women, as well as the Stonewall riots courage to fight back against oppression movements don't happen without the Civil Rights movement laying the groundwork.

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« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2013, 12:34:55 AM »

The Civil Rights movement was well on its way before Nixon.  That it gained support after they realized that the mood of the country was begining to swing does not mean that the Civil Rights movement itself owes its success to the Cold War.  As I said, most of what you attribute to the Cold War happened in spite of US policy, not because of it.   Citing riots that occured during the Cold War doesn't exactly make it sound like the U.S. was trying to be model world citizens.   icon_wink

It also seems a little insulting to say that the struggles of the African American citizens during this time, a struggle that resulted in so many acts of injustice by American politicans that you believe were trying to set an example, only bore fruit because the U.S. wanted to look good on the world stage.

But the original argument was whether or not America was trying to do the right thing during the Cold War and was setting an example.  And as I've said (and shown), that just didn't happen. 

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« Reply #91 on: August 29, 2013, 05:38:05 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 29, 2013, 12:34:55 AM

The Civil Rights movement was well on its way before Nixon.  That it gained support after they realized that the mood of the country was begining to swing does not mean that the Civil Rights movement itself owes its success to the Cold War.  As I said, most of what you attribute to the Cold War happened in spite of US policy, not because of it.   Citing riots that occured during the Cold War doesn't exactly make it sound like the U.S. was trying to be model world citizens.   icon_wink

It also seems a little insulting to say that the struggles of the African American citizens during this time, a struggle that resulted in so many acts of injustice by American politicans that you believe were trying to set an example, only bore fruit because the U.S. wanted to look good on the world stage.

But the original argument was whether or not America was trying to do the right thing during the Cold War and was setting an example.  And as I've said (and shown), that just didn't happen. 



Not only, but probably would have failed.  Heck, it (the Civil Rights Act) might not have passed if it weren't for Kennedy's assassination either.  It was not an easy thing, and there was a confluence of a variety of factors that all needed to be happening for it to occur.  That's one of the things that makes it so amazing.
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« Reply #92 on: August 29, 2013, 12:52:32 PM »

I'm sorry, but I still completely disagree with your earlier statement:

Quote
 I don't think there's any way in hell the Civil Rights movement happens without the Cold War

The Civil Rights Movement did not come into existence because of the Cold War.  Nor did it come into existence during the Cold War.  That it saw a modicum of success DURING the Cold War I can agree with.  Although most historical accounts of the Civil Rights Movement rarely (if ever) mention the Cold War as anything more than a minor factor in the success of the movement, or as a footnote explaining how it effected the international view of our country (at least until Vietnam eclipsed it).
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« Reply #93 on: August 29, 2013, 11:37:50 PM »

As I noted, in many ways we trust our "friends" even less than our enemies, and our own people even less yet.

http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/middle-east-north-africa/319513-leaked-documents-reveal-us-sees-israel-as-a-major-spying-threat

If anyone in the intel business ever says they trust you, watch your back.
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« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2013, 12:24:04 AM »

Ben-ami Kadish and Jonathan Pollard.  How is it news that the Israelis spy on us?  We bend over backwards to carry water for them internationally, give them sweetheart deals on our technology, and even then, they try to steal the secrets that we won't give them.
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« Reply #95 on: August 30, 2013, 01:00:16 AM »

Yeah, I'm not seeing how that bit of (unsurprising) news makes us any worse than any country on Earth.
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« Reply #96 on: August 30, 2013, 01:18:02 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 30, 2013, 12:24:04 AM

Ben-ami Kadish and Jonathan Pollard.  How is it news that the Israelis spy on us?  We bend over backwards to carry water for them internationally, give them sweetheart deals on our technology, and even then, they try to steal the secrets that we won't give them.


We were spying on them and them on us well before those events. I think people (not I) are more surprised that they appear on the same level of the threat list as the likes of NK. What people don't realize is what our relationship friendliness wise is with a country has VERY little to do with it, the criteria is about ability. If Canada had as much capability of spying on us as Israel they would be there as well.
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« Reply #97 on: August 30, 2013, 02:29:11 AM »

I think it may be based more on precedence, actually. 
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« Reply #98 on: September 03, 2013, 05:55:02 PM »

Drug Agents Use Vast Phone Trove, Eclipsing N.S.A.’s

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The Hemisphere Project, a partnership between federal and local drug officials and AT&T that has not previously been reported, involves an extremely close association between the government and the telecommunications giant.

The government pays AT&T to place its employees in drug-fighting units around the country. Those employees sit alongside Drug Enforcement Administration agents and local detectives and supply them with the phone data from as far back as 1987.

Can we stop pretending there is such a thing as the 4th Amendment?
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« Reply #99 on: September 03, 2013, 08:43:08 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 29, 2013, 12:52:32 PM

I'm sorry, but I still completely disagree with your earlier statement:

Quote
 I don't think there's any way in hell the Civil Rights movement happens without the Cold War

The Civil Rights Movement did not come into existence because of the Cold War.  Nor did it come into existence during the Cold War.  That it saw a modicum of success DURING the Cold War I can agree with.  Although most historical accounts of the Civil Rights Movement rarely (if ever) mention the Cold War as anything more than a minor factor in the success of the movement, or as a footnote explaining how it effected the international view of our country (at least until Vietnam eclipsed it).

Yeah, I was a bit too hasty in my language there.  Later I qualified it to passage of the Civil Rights Act.  There would have been a Civil Rights movement after WW II regardless.  However, without an incentive such as the Cold War on the world stage it could well have turned into Apartheid or even Egypt/Syria situation.  I'm not saying it would have, but I can certainly picture the freedom rides without federal involvement and with a Malcom X inspiration rather than an MLK inspiration.  Non-violence would have had a much tougher time overcoming when the whole world wasn't watching.
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« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2013, 03:38:49 PM »

NSA Can Spy on Smart Phone Data

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The United States' National Security Agency intelligence-gathering operation is capable of accessing user data from smart phones from all leading manufacturers. Top secret NSA documents that SPIEGEL has seen explicitly note that the NSA can tap into such information on Apple iPhones, BlackBerry devices and Google's Android mobile operating system.

ANZEIGE
The documents state that it is possible for the NSA to tap most sensitive data held on these smart phones, including contact lists, SMS traffic, notes and location information about where a user has been.

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« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2013, 05:03:59 PM »

I've always assumed that cell phones are wide open whenever they're turned on and within range of a tower.
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« Reply #102 on: September 10, 2013, 12:35:08 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 28, 2013, 04:18:18 AM

Quote from: Moliere on August 27, 2013, 03:14:44 PM


No, he wasn't. Some random person saying "this guy should win the Nobel Peace Prize!" doesn't actually nominate you for the prize.

Not exactly some "random guy". Nomination is nomination. It doesn't mean he's won it.
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« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2014, 05:28:32 PM »

With the latest revelation about U.S. spying, I think it's time we, as a country, finally admit the truth:

We are the real life Maxwell Smart of international espionage. 

The government should immediately issue shoe phones to all agents overseas.  A cone of silence needs to be installed in the White House.  And operatives need to be highly trained in the use of the "Would you believe?" method of getting out of scrapes.

That is all.
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« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2014, 12:47:06 AM »

What's the latest revelation?
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« Reply #105 on: July 12, 2014, 11:01:32 PM »

We got caught paying spies in Germany
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« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2014, 04:44:05 AM »

Most of them don't want to get paid in gum.
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« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2014, 12:58:31 AM »

Most, not all.
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