Risk of non-citizen voters in Florida at center of election year struggle

[CeeKay]

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/01/12011581-risk-of-non-citizen-voters-at-center-of-election-year-struggle-in-florida-and-colorado?lite

The Justice Department entered the long-running struggle over voter eligibility Thursday, warning Florida that its program to check the citizenship status of registered voters violates both Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act and the 1993 National Voter Registration Act.

In a battleground state in a presidential election year, the voter eligibility scuffle may have big implications, especially when you consider that George W. Bush won Florida in 2000 by a mere 537 votes in a case ultimately decided by the U.S. Supreme Court.

The state said its initial check found 180,000 potential non-citizens who may be registered voters.

Florida Democratic Rep. Ted Deutch referred to the citizenship verification process as Republican Gov. Rick Scott’s “blatant campaign to suppress the vote immediately in advance of the presidential election.”

The struggle over who should be eligible to vote and who shouldn’t – not only in Florida, but in another battleground state, Colorado, and in other states as well – raises important policy questions

Technically the Republicans may be right- if it's illegal for someone to be voting then they shouldn't be counted for any election.  it is basically the Democrats saying 'we will turn a blind eye just to get our votes'.  of course they could also be shooting themselves in the foot since they are not guaranteed of getting these votes, in which case they'd probably turn around and cry foul.

[Fireball1244]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

Non-citizens shouldn't vote. Of course not. But it is *more* important that no actual citizen be denied his or her RIGHT to vote.

There has never been any proof provided of widespread incidents of non-citizens casting ballots. The potential danger there is *not* worth denying so much as one actual American citizen their vote.

[pr0ner]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

That's quite the outrageous claim.  Got concrete proof?

[Pyperkub]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

That's quite the outrageous claim.  Got concrete proof?

Yes.  Florida's voter purge has already been called into question because of it

[pr0ner]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

That's quite the outrageous claim.  Got concrete proof?

Yes.  Florida's voter purge has already been called into question because of it

And this is proof how?

[Autistic Angel]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

That's quite the outrageous claim.  Got concrete proof?

Yes.  Florida's voter purge has already been called into question because of it

And this is proof how?

It's the latest point in a long-running pattern.  The wave of restrictive new voting regulations that have been pushed into law by Republican state legislatures around the country.  Shuffling around which forms of photo ID are acceptable, passing draconian new restrictions on voter registration drives, cutting back on early and absentee voting...Florida even went out of its way to specifically ban early voting on the Sunday before the election, conveniently blocking the Get Out The Vote events traditionally held at many African American churches.

And then there's series of "isolated incidents" that occur every year where Democratic-leaning districts suddenly receive a rash of phone calls warning them that the election is being held a day later, or their polling place has been closed and the lines elsewhere are expected to be three hours long, or that police officers are going to be prowling around for unpaid parking tickets and broken tail lights.  My favorite variant: a "volunteer from the Democrat's campaign" calls up to thank you so much for your support, but victory has now been assured and you should feel free to relax at home.

The Republican Party isn't responsible for this punctual spate of isolated incidents, of course.  It's some shadowy, uncatchable prankster making thousands of robo-calls on their behalf, and they're anxious to decry "dirty tricks by both sides."  Republicans couldn't possibly be involved because they're much too busy trying to motivate voters in their own way.  Are you a registered Republican, pr0ner?  My mother is, and I've seen the push polls they drop in her mailbox every election season.


1) Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid want to slash the defense budget and rely on Europe to provide for our national defense!  Should Republicans continue to stand up for American independence?  Y / N

2) Republicans have a bold plan to get our America's economy moving in the right direction!  Should they abandon their principles and give in to the failed policies of Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid?  Y / N


So really, it's less of an "outrageous claim," and more of a "factual claim of outrageous behavior."  See the difference?

-Autistic Angel

[Teggy]

From what I understand, due to past issues in the south with racism-related disenfranchisement, there are a certain number of states (Florida included) that must get special permission before purging voter rolls. That is the issue in play here.

I'll let someone else handle whether or not it is being done for political reasons. What is not debatable is that there are already examples of legal voters getting letters that they will be purged.

[Blackadar]

I actually don't have a problem with states using the DHS database to check on legal status.

But in this case, it's not hard to read between the lines.  As AA pointed out, Republicans have been actively trying to suppress the vote for years and there are literally dozens of examples to be had.  If someone doesn't recognize this, then they're an ostrich.  The whole effort over Voter ID isn't about fraud since there's never any examples they can point to.  It's largely about putting up barriers to entry in poor and minority districts that tend to vote Democratic. 

For example, when a study showed that 1/2 of the students at Benedict College in SC (a historically black college) didn't have the required ID for SC and wouldn't be able to vote if their law stands, one of the strategists of the SC Republican Caucus said that's why the law was needed - not because they shouldn't vote, but that now they wouldn't be able to.  Or that the GOP in Ohio tried to pass (it was pulled after it became apparent that a voter referendum wouldn't support it) a law that would have forbid poll workers from trying to help people find their correct voting place - the 2nd most common reason for a tossed ballot.  Guess who that would impact most?  Or how the GOP passed a law preventing early access voting in Ohio a week before the voting weekend...the election night robocalls in MD telling people to take it easy and not vote to 50,000 people in Democratic districts...

The timing of getting this done now isn't coincidental either.  They've had 4 years to deal with this issue since the last Presidential election.  Trying to do it 6 months in advance of the general election isn't simply an accident - there's no doubt in my mind that if these Republicans had their way, 180,000 Floridians in largely Democratic districts would be wiped off the roles with no good notification system so that when they showed up to vote they'd simply be ineligible. 

Oh, and this gives a bit more information:  http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/florida-gop-takes-voter-supression-to-a-brazen-new-extreme-20120530

The GOP Campaign Slogan: If you can't beat 'em, cheat 'em!

[Ironrod]

Why don't they focus their efforts on phantom voters created by faulty machines?

Oh wait, here's a reason:

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Almost half of Florida’s voters will have their ballots counted this November by machines that can malfunction in as little as two hours and start adding votes.

...

The addition of extra votes can generate overvoting - instances where two or more candidates are chosen on a ballot in the same race. If a voter doesn’t correct the ballot, his or her vote in that race is thrown out.

In 2008, overvoting rates were so high in Florida counties using the scanner that an estimated 11,000 people lost their vote for president, an analysis by the nonprofit watchdog group Florida Fair Elections Coalition concluded.

Miami-Dade County precincts with large numbers of minority and non-English-speaking voters were especially hit hard

[pr0ner]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

That's quite the outrageous claim.  Got concrete proof?

Yes.  Florida's voter purge has already been called into question because of it

And this is proof how?

It's the latest point in a long-running pattern.  The wave of restrictive new voting regulations that have been pushed into law by Republican state legislatures around the country.  Shuffling around which forms of photo ID are acceptable, passing draconian new restrictions on voter registration drives, cutting back on early and absentee voting...Florida even went out of its way to specifically ban early voting on the Sunday before the election, conveniently blocking the Get Out The Vote events traditionally held at many African American churches.

And then there's series of "isolated incidents" that occur every year where Democratic-leaning districts suddenly receive a rash of phone calls warning them that the election is being held a day later, or their polling place has been closed and the lines elsewhere are expected to be three hours long, or that police officers are going to be prowling around for unpaid parking tickets and broken tail lights.  My favorite variant: a "volunteer from the Democrat's campaign" calls up to thank you so much for your support, but victory has now been assured and you should feel free to relax at home.

The Republican Party isn't responsible for this punctual spate of isolated incidents, of course.  It's some shadowy, uncatchable prankster making thousands of robo-calls on their behalf, and they're anxious to decry "dirty tricks by both sides."  Republicans couldn't possibly be involved because they're much too busy trying to motivate voters in their own way.  Are you a registered Republican, pr0ner?  My mother is, and I've seen the push polls they drop in her mailbox every election season.


1) Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid want to slash the defense budget and rely on Europe to provide for our national defense!  Should Republicans continue to stand up for American independence?  Y / N

2) Republicans have a bold plan to get our America's economy moving in the right direction!  Should they abandon their principles and give in to the failed policies of Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid?  Y / N


So really, it's less of an "outrageous claim," and more of a "factual claim of outrageous behavior."  See the difference?

-Autistic Angel

Once again, this is proof how?

At least Blackadar could provide some, which I appreciate.

[Autistic Angel]

pr0ner, the proof is that the long, ever growing list of ways Republicans are dreaming up to make voting harder, more expensive, and less representative is being in enacted in the complete absence of any legitimate problem.  Every single independent study done on the issue of electoral fraud, including ones commissioned by true believers on the Right, has demonstrated that the "problem" is statistically nonexistent.

And these laws are a solution searching for a problem. Conservatives have long bemoaned the menace of voter impersonation, but the evidence for this threat is nonexistent. George W. Bush's Justice Department spent years ferreting out voter fraud and managed to prosecute not one voter for impersonating another. "Out of the 300 million votes cast [between 2002 and 2007] federal prosecutors convicted only 86 people for voter fraud," Rolling Stone reported. A 2007 study by the Brennan Center found the instances of voter fraud to be literally infinitesimal. "You're more likely to get killed by lightning than commit in-person voter fraud," says the Brennan Center's Michael Waldman. Which only makes sense: That thousands of people are casting illegal votes in others' names while evading determined detection (always managing to choose people who weren't going to vote anyway) doesn't pass the smell test.

When the stated goal of this legislative pattern is to prevent a crime that no one is committing, you start looking for other reasons why Republicans might benefit from laws that disproportionately discourage the poor, the sick, the elderly, college students, and ethnic minorities from casting votes.  You don't have to look very hard.

-Autistic Angel

[Autistic Angel]

By the way, there are now reports coming in that voters in Wisconsin are receiving anonymous robocalls assuring them that if they're already signed the recall petition, their vote has already been recorded and they don't need to go out to the polls tomorrow.

-Autistic Angel

[Alefroth]

Democrats are *not* trying to allow non-citizens to vote. The Republicans are trying to block actual citizens who are more likely to vote Democratic from voting by setting up "proof of citizenship" standards that millions of Americans can't meet -- particularly poor Americans, old Americans, women and college students.

That's quite the outrageous claim.  Got concrete proof?

Yes.  Florida's voter purge has already been called into question because of it

And this is proof how?

It's the latest point in a long-running pattern.  The wave of restrictive new voting regulations that have been pushed into law by Republican state legislatures around the country.  Shuffling around which forms of photo ID are acceptable, passing draconian new restrictions on voter registration drives, cutting back on early and absentee voting...Florida even went out of its way to specifically ban early voting on the Sunday before the election, conveniently blocking the Get Out The Vote events traditionally held at many African American churches.

And then there's series of "isolated incidents" that occur every year where Democratic-leaning districts suddenly receive a rash of phone calls warning them that the election is being held a day later, or their polling place has been closed and the lines elsewhere are expected to be three hours long, or that police officers are going to be prowling around for unpaid parking tickets and broken tail lights.  My favorite variant: a "volunteer from the Democrat's campaign" calls up to thank you so much for your support, but victory has now been assured and you should feel free to relax at home.

The Republican Party isn't responsible for this punctual spate of isolated incidents, of course.  It's some shadowy, uncatchable prankster making thousands of robo-calls on their behalf, and they're anxious to decry "dirty tricks by both sides."  Republicans couldn't possibly be involved because they're much too busy trying to motivate voters in their own way.  Are you a registered Republican, pr0ner?  My mother is, and I've seen the push polls they drop in her mailbox every election season.


1) Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid want to slash the defense budget and rely on Europe to provide for our national defense!  Should Republicans continue to stand up for American independence?  Y / N

2) Republicans have a bold plan to get our America's economy moving in the right direction!  Should they abandon their principles and give in to the failed policies of Barack Hussein Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid?  Y / N


So really, it's less of an "outrageous claim," and more of a "factual claim of outrageous behavior."  See the difference?

-Autistic Angel

Once again, this is proof how?

At least Blackadar could provide some, which I appreciate.

So you've got nothing to say about the proof?

Ale

[Pyperkub]

pr0ner, the proof is that the long, ever growing list of ways Republicans are dreaming up to make voting harder, more expensive, and less representative is being in enacted in the complete absence of any legitimate problem.  Every single independent study done on the issue of electoral fraud, including ones commissioned by true believers on the Right, has demonstrated that the "problem" is statistically nonexistent.

And these laws are a solution searching for a problem. Conservatives have long bemoaned the menace of voter impersonation, but the evidence for this threat is nonexistent. George W. Bush's Justice Department spent years ferreting out voter fraud and managed to prosecute not one voter for impersonating another. "Out of the 300 million votes cast [between 2002 and 2007] federal prosecutors convicted only 86 people for voter fraud," Rolling Stone reported. A 2007 study by the Brennan Center found the instances of voter fraud to be literally infinitesimal. "You're more likely to get killed by lightning than commit in-person voter fraud," says the Brennan Center's Michael Waldman. Which only makes sense: That thousands of people are casting illegal votes in others' names while evading determined detection (always managing to choose people who weren't going to vote anyway) doesn't pass the smell test.

When the stated goal of this legislative pattern is to prevent a crime that no one is committing, you start looking for other reasons why Republicans might benefit from laws that disproportionately discourage the poor, the sick, the elderly, college students, and ethnic minorities from casting votes.  You don't have to look very hard.

-Autistic Angel

In other words, there have probably been more laws introduced to address this alleged problem than there have been of confirmed incidences of it, to say nothing of all the noise being drummed up about it.

And amazingly enough, every one of those proposed laws manages to make it more difficult for citizens who would demographically tend to vote D to vote. 

Or maybe not so amazing, as they are all pretty much based on model legislation written by ALEC to do exactly that - reduce the effectiveness of democratic get out the vote efforts.

[CeeKay]

a little update:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/28/us/victory-for-floridas-push-against-illegal-voters.html?ref=politics

A federal judge on Wednesday rebuffed the Department of Justice’s emergency request to stop Florida’s attempt to remove people who are not American citizens from its voter registration rolls.

Judge Robert L. Hinkle of United States District Court in Tallahassee said federal laws did not bar the state from identifying and removing ineligible voters from its rolls, though the Aug. 14 primary is less than 90 days away. The laws, Judge Hinkle said, are to block the removal of legitimate voters: people lawfully registered to vote before being eligible for removal, like felons or the deceased. They do not apply to people, like noncitizens, who never should have been on the rolls.

But Judge Hinkle, who delivered his ruling from the bench, chastised the state as having handled the matter cavalierly.

“Determining citizenship is not as easy as the state would have it,” Judge Hinkle said, according to The Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel. “Questioning someone’s citizenship isn’t as trivial as the state would have it.”

Still, ineligible voters should not be allowed to vote, he said, because it can cause “irreparable harm” to legitimate voters.

Wednesday’s narrow ruling nonetheless lets the Justice Department lawsuit move forward.

[notrich]

So you've got nothing to say about the proof?

Ale

he is just askin questions...  

where is the proof that 180,000 people are illegally voting?  oh thats right there is none?

The state said its initial check found 180,000 potential non-citizens who may be registered voters.

180,000 is a scary number... if you ignore words that have meaning

as long as you are someone that does not fit the profile of a "potential non-citizen" then everything is aok - right?