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Author Topic: Rev. Graham: Obama won because Christians didn't vote  (Read 5331 times)
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CeeKay
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« on: November 16, 2012, 09:51:09 PM »

Feed them to the lions!

Quote
The outspoken Rev. Franklin Graham claimed today that the “majority of Christians” did not vote.

“We know that from of the statistics that I’ve heard that the majority of Christians in this country just did not vote for whatever reason,” he told the Christian Broadcasting Network’s David Brody. “The vast majority of evangelicals did not go to the polls.” He added, “God is in control, and if Christians are upset, they need to be upset at themselves.  We need to do a better job of getting our people- the church to vote.  Now, I’m not trying to tell you how to vote, you can vote, but vote, my goodness, and vote for candidates that stand for Biblical values.”

But Graham’s assertion -- and implication that had white Christian evangelicals just showed up in bigger numbers, President Obama would have lost -- is off base.

In fact, white evangelicals/born-again Christians made up the same percentage of the electorate as they did in 2008 – 26%. They voted for Mitt Romney, a devout Mormon, by a wider margin than they did for Sen. John McCain four years ago.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/16/15219396-no-its-not-christians-fault-obama-won?lite

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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 09:56:15 PM »

"Biblical values" is not synonymous with "morally right".  In fact, it's often counter to it.
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 10:10:23 PM »

This one is great:
Quote
"Now, I’m not trying to tell you how to vote, you can vote, but vote, my goodness, and vote for candidates that stand for Biblical values.”

Paraphrased: "I'm not trying to tell you how to vote, but I'm telling you how to vote. Capice?"
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 10:49:36 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 16, 2012, 09:56:15 PM

"Biblical values" is not synonymous with "morally right".  In fact, it's often counter to it.

Explain.

Now if you said: biblical values =! republican values I'm on board.

or biblical values =! romney's beliefs. I'm on board.

(in my head that's the not equal sign, but I could have it wrong...)

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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 10:50:03 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on November 16, 2012, 10:10:23 PM

This one is great:
Quote
"Now, I’m not trying to tell you how to vote, you can vote, but vote, my goodness, and vote for candidates that stand for Biblical values.”

Paraphrased: "I'm not trying to tell you how to vote, but I'm telling you how to vote. Capice?"

Paraphrase: What everyone who has ever supported a candidate has ever said.
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 10:50:57 PM »

Not everyone who has ever supported a candidate is making their claim from a pulpit though.

Quote from: ATB on November 16, 2012, 10:49:36 PM

Quote from: hepcat on November 16, 2012, 09:56:15 PM

"Biblical values" is not synonymous with "morally right".  In fact, it's often counter to it.

Explain.

Now if you said: biblical values =! republican values I'm on board.

or biblical values =! romney's beliefs. I'm on board.

(in my head that's the not equal sign, but I could have it wrong...)


Open the bible to almost any section and start reading.  That's the best way to answer your question.
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 11:11:15 PM »

By Graham's own reasoning ("God is in control"), Obama's victory was God's will. So what's the problem here?
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 11:50:43 PM »

Quote from: ATB on November 16, 2012, 10:49:36 PM

Quote from: hepcat on November 16, 2012, 09:56:15 PM

"Biblical values" is not synonymous with "morally right".  In fact, it's often counter to it.

Explain.

Now if you said: biblical values =! republican values I'm on board.

or biblical values =! romney's beliefs. I'm on board.

(in my head that's the not equal sign, but I could have it wrong...)


No, you're right.  Three times over, in fact.

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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 05:32:37 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 16, 2012, 10:50:57 PM

Not everyone who has ever supported a candidate is making their claim from a pulpit though.

Fair.
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 03:01:22 PM »

Quote from: ATB on November 16, 2012, 10:49:36 PM

(in my head that's the not equal sign, but I could have it wrong...)

More like "equal not" but we all knew what you meant.  icon_wink

For the record: !=
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 05:06:45 PM »

Quote from: ATB on November 16, 2012, 10:50:03 PM

Quote from: TiLT on November 16, 2012, 10:10:23 PM

This one is great:
Quote
"Now, I’m not trying to tell you how to vote, you can vote, but vote, my goodness, and vote for candidates that stand for Biblical values.”

Paraphrased: "I'm not trying to tell you how to vote, but I'm telling you how to vote. Capice?"

Paraphrase: What everyone who has ever supported a candidate has ever said.

Ummm   not true.  Most come right out and tell you that they want you to vote for their chosen candidate.  This guy contradicts himself in the same sentence. 

 As far as the term "biblical values"  thats pretty much an oxymoron.  These "values" are how ever the reader chooses to interpret the highly general statements in the bible, a document that has been constantly re-written, reinterpreted, translated and re-translated from several languages, altered, added to and subtracted from since it was first written.  Whether or not you choose to believe it is the  "written word of God", the fact of the matter is that like religion itself, it has become a tool in the hands of corrupt men.  Thus in my opinion, while it has value, on an individual and personal basis, politicizing it destroys any validity it may have on a larger scale.
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 01:34:23 PM »

I largely agree.

If the Body of Christ spent the time they waste on political barnstorming and instead spent it on evangelizing and being true to the love of God, many of the things they rail against may likely not need be political issues in the first place.

I guess Mr. Graham supported Romney? Well, there are clear biblical issues as to why that was a call worse than Obama.  But for the record, I'm a Christian and I voted...for a write in.

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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 02:42:21 AM »

Quote from: ATB on November 19, 2012, 01:34:23 PM

I guess Mr. Graham supported Romney? Well, there are clear biblical issues as to why that was a call worse than Obama.

Huh?
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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 07:54:04 PM »

This election has really brought the crazy...and is still delivering.  It's not like this when it's just 2 old boring white dudes running for President.   
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 10:50:38 AM »

If God really had wanted the Republicans to win wouldn't he have made it so already?
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2012, 10:35:21 PM »

Quote from: Roguetad on November 21, 2012, 07:54:04 PM

This election has really brought the crazy...and is still delivering.  It's not like this when it's just 2 old boring white dudes running for President.   

Yep nothing at all crazy happened during Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore.
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2012, 10:44:06 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on November 23, 2012, 10:35:21 PM

Quote from: Roguetad on November 21, 2012, 07:54:04 PM

This election has really brought the crazy...and is still delivering.  It's not like this when it's just 2 old boring white dudes running for President.   

Yep nothing at all crazy happened during Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore.

I think it's fair to say this particular election has been nuttier than the last several.
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2012, 12:12:25 AM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on November 23, 2012, 10:44:06 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on November 23, 2012, 10:35:21 PM

Quote from: Roguetad on November 21, 2012, 07:54:04 PM

This election has really brought the crazy...and is still delivering.  It's not like this when it's just 2 old boring white dudes running for President.   

Yep nothing at all crazy happened during Bush/Kerry or Bush/Gore.

I think it's fair to say this particular election has been nuttier than the last several.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that 2016, after four more years of polarization and gridlock and with no incumbent, is going to be even nuttier.
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2012, 01:03:58 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on November 21, 2012, 02:42:21 AM

Quote from: ATB on November 19, 2012, 01:34:23 PM

I guess Mr. Graham supported Romney? Well, there are clear biblical issues as to why that was a call worse than Obama.

Huh?

Still curious what this comment meant.  Care to elaborate ATB?
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2012, 02:45:56 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on November 24, 2012, 01:03:58 AM

Quote from: Gratch on November 21, 2012, 02:42:21 AM

Quote from: ATB on November 19, 2012, 01:34:23 PM

I guess Mr. Graham supported Romney? Well, there are clear biblical issues as to why that was a call worse than Obama.

Huh?

Still curious what this comment meant.  Care to elaborate ATB?

Teh Morminz?
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2012, 06:44:56 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on November 24, 2012, 02:45:56 PM

Quote from: Gratch on November 24, 2012, 01:03:58 AM

Quote from: Gratch on November 21, 2012, 02:42:21 AM

Quote from: ATB on November 19, 2012, 01:34:23 PM

I guess Mr. Graham supported Romney? Well, there are clear biblical issues as to why that was a call worse than Obama.

Huh?

Still curious what this comment meant.  Care to elaborate ATB?

Teh Morminz?

That's what I'm guessing, but I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind it.
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2012, 09:30:25 PM »

If one reads in Chronicles and Kings, it was the ascension of Kings who worshipped false Gods that facilitated the end of Israel as a nation and kingdom.

I didn't vote for Obama because I don't care for many of his policies, his evident arrogance, the lack of forward progress I feel this country has made and that he says he's a Christian and does so only to get votes as he clearly has a very superficial and empty understanding of the Bible or Christianity (I've gathered this through reading interviews and listening to him speak on the matter).

I didn't vote for Romney primarily because Mormonism is a false religion, with a false 'prophet', a false Christ and the potential to lead many astray was great...and I didn't trust a word he said. Not. One. Word.

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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2012, 04:04:07 PM »

Quote from: ATB on November 24, 2012, 09:30:25 PM

I didn't vote for Obama because I don't care for many of his policies, his evident arrogance,

While I can certainly understand not agreeing with his policies (I myself have taken issue with a few), his "evident arrogance" is not even remotely possible to prove.  I would suggest dropping "evident" from that sentence and reframing it as an opinion.

Quote
the lack of forward progress I feel this country has made

Science and gay rights would like to have a word with you.

Quote
and that he says he's a Christian and does so only to get votes as he clearly has a very superficial and empty understanding of the Bible or Christianity (I've gathered this through reading interviews and listening to him speak on the matter).

Again, not even remotely possible to prove this.  Just because he doesn't interpret the bible the way YOU'D like him to doesn't mean a thing.  If anything, it may serve to reinforce the opinion that you don't actually have an understanding of either topics in the eyes of many others.

Quote
I didn't vote for Romney primarily because Mormonism is a false religion, with a false 'prophet', a false Christ and the potential to lead many astray was great...and I didn't trust a word he said. Not. One. Word.

Which prophets are true?  I would just like to keep track.  I know Jews don't believe that Jesus was actually the son of God (Christ), so I suppose we'll never see you voting for one of their kind.  I'm also guessing Mohamed is right out.  And I'm sure the non-Christian prophets are most likely going to lead folks astray as well.  
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« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2012, 05:01:10 PM »

Many of the Christians I know do nothing but talk crap about how horrible the Mormon religion is and then still backed Romney. It's nice to hear that ATB stuck to his beliefs on this at least. I disagree with almost everything ATB said in his post, but I find it difficult to understand how Mormon bashing Christians ever could vote for one.
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« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2012, 05:17:32 PM »

I firmly believe in the separation of Church and State.  And to vote against a candidate just because you don't believe in the same God (or interpretation of God) at that level is something I believe flies in the face of our founding father's beliefs.
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« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2012, 06:17:50 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 25, 2012, 05:17:32 PM

I firmly believe in the separation of Church and State.  And to vote against a candidate just because you don't believe in the same God (or interpretation of God) at that level is something I believe flies in the face of our founding father's beliefs.

I agree 100% regarding the separation of church and state.  The founding fathers wanted to prevent religious mandates from driving politics as history has proven time and time again that it usually results in people dying.
  I do not believe it was the intentions of our founding fathers to separate religious beliefs from a persons vote.  People have the right to vote based on their religious and moral points of view.  Still, while religious beliefs, on an individual basis, will always affect that persons choices while voting, I do believe arbitrarily dismissing a candidate based solely on the candidates chosen religious beliefs is very short sighted and hopefully people consider far more than that in their voting choices.
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« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2012, 06:52:43 PM »

If you think a canadite is a member of a cult with beliefs that are extreme, how can you respect them enough to want them to run the country? Religion, and how the person uses it, says a lot about them. I, for the most part, agree with President Obama, but if he was constantly saying he made decisions based on what God told him and the Bible says, I wouldn't vote for him.
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« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2012, 07:05:55 PM »

Mormons are Christians, they just have a slightly different take on things.  At least that's how I view them.  I do agree that if someone was a member of a cult that had harmful beliefs (drastically so, that is), bias against that should be a part of the decision making process for any voter.  But I doubt we'll ever see any candidate presented to the public with that kind of background.   
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« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2012, 07:21:31 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 25, 2012, 07:05:55 PM

Mormons are Christians, they just have a slightly different take on things.   

I don't want to use the same abrasive language as you, but this comment "reinforces the opinion that you don't actually have an understanding of either topics."

The difference isn't slight. Mormonism is heresy.

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« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2012, 07:40:20 PM »

Some of the best groups of people in history have been called heretical by Christians.  A lot of the time, they're actually saying it about other Christians.   icon_lol
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:49:04 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2012, 07:50:51 PM »

Once again we find ourselves at a divide.  There's no way for me to effectively convey what I'd like to without this becoming a tit for tat waste of time.

Bottom line, I didn't vote for either guy and I have legitimate reasons for not voting for either.  You may bend it any way you want to satisfy your preconceptions and that's fine with me.

Edit to accommodate your edit: Even a cursory review of Mormonism shows that it is not in any way in alignment with the Bible.
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« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2012, 07:58:19 PM »

Really?

Quote
Most will agree that Christians believe...  

that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, foretold in the Old Testament of the Bible.  "Mormons" also believe this.

that Jesus of Nazareth is the Savior of the world.  "Mormons" also believe this.

that God loved us so he sent His Son Jesus to suffer for our sins  "Mormons" also believe this.

that after Jesus died on the cross, he was resurrected.  "Mormons" also believe this.

that we must accept Jesus as our Savior to return to live with God.  "Mormons" also believe this.

that the Bible is God's word  "Mormons" also believe this.

Cursory must have a different meaning to you.

p.s. what part of their religous beliefs do you believe is harmful?  I'm just curious.  I can find nothing in their stated beliefs that can even be remotely construed as such.  On the contrary, they seem to believe that doing good deeds is a requirement of the church.  They're encouraged to do missionary work at a young age, as a matter of fact.  And that missionary work is usually in the form of charity work in third world countries and other impoverished areas.

All religion exists on faith.  I don't know why that also has to mean faith that the other guy is wrong.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 08:16:24 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2012, 08:22:28 PM »

I was going to say Hepcat, try telling a Christian that Mormons are Christians also, but ATB took care of that. Gets certain Christians quite worked up. :-)
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« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2012, 08:34:01 PM »

Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants...they've all been accused of not being Christians at some point in history.  It's all just internecine bickering by folks who think they're right.  Christians are sometimes the most UNChristian folks around.
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« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2012, 09:09:30 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 25, 2012, 07:05:55 PM

Mormons are Christians, they just have a slightly different take on things.  At least that's how I view them.

I'd fully agree with this as well.  Every sect of Christianity has its own "flavor", if you will, and Mormonism is simply another version of the story.  Other Christians seem to get really bent out of shape about Mormons being in an (apparently) exclusive club, but to an impartial observer, they're all just their own wacky variations on a theme.

Branding Mormons as "heretics" seems a bit harsh (and "crusades"-ish) to me, but to each their own.
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« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2012, 10:58:08 PM »

I'll leave the digging to you if you're really interested.

A couple of key things to seek out:

Joseph Smith > Jesus

A faithful Mormon becomes a God when he dies.  Thus God was was once man.

Book of Mormon > Bible

Praying people into heaven vs Salvation of Christ

Jesus and Satan = 'Spirit Brothers'



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« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2012, 11:20:12 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on November 25, 2012, 09:09:30 PM

Quote from: hepcat on November 25, 2012, 07:05:55 PM

Mormons are Christians, they just have a slightly different take on things.  At least that's how I view them.

I'd fully agree with this as well.  Every sect of Christianity has its own "flavor", if you will, and Mormonism is simply another version of the story. 

Speaking as an outsider, a Christian is anybody who believes that Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection is literally true, not a metaphor or allegory. The rest of it is extraneous detail that divides the many sects. Mormons are "out there" with their magic spectacles and invisible tablets and angelic appearances and whatnot, but they do believe in the central miracle that defines Christianity, so they're in the club...whether the other sects welcome them or not.

That's how it looks to this particular nonbeliever, anyway. I don't pay attention to or care about the doctrinal differences between sects. (The one that I was raised in didn't consider Catholics to be Christians, btw.)
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« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2012, 11:37:40 PM »

ATB, you may want to do a bit more research.  Some very quick thoughts on what you think Mormon beliefs entail:

Quote from: ATB on November 25, 2012, 10:58:08 PM

Joseph Smith > Jesus

Not even remotely close to accurate.  Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was the person chosen by the godhead to bring Jesus' true teachings back to the earth.  They absolutely, 100% do not believe that he is greater than Christ in any way.  From the church's website:  "Some think Mormons worship Joseph Smith, but that is not true. Rather we deeply revere him. We worship God the Eternal Father and His Son Jesus Christ. We respect Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and an instrument of Heavenly Father in restoring back to the earth the Church of Jesus Christ in its fullness."

Quote
A faithful Mormon becomes a God when he dies.  Thus God was was once man.

Sort of true, although the church has distanced itself from this quite a bit over the last 20 years.  There's an interesting perspective on it here

Quote
Book of Mormon > Bible

A very, very inaccurate statement.  Basically, Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ, dealing with his exploits in the Americas.  They do not believe it supercedes the Bible in any way, rather that it supplements it.  Continues the story, as it were.

Quote
Praying people into heaven vs Salvation of Christ

I can only assume you're referring to the baptism of the dead practice.  Basically Mormons believe that when a person dies, they go to a sort of spiritual purgatory to await the resurrection of Christ.  Once that happens, people are judged according to their works (of which acceptance of Christ is one) and go to one of three levels of heaven (you can read it in more detail here).  They realize that there are hundreds of millions of people who lived here that were never exposed to Mormon doctrine.  As a result they complete an ordinance called Baptism for the Dead.  They believe this rite will give a person in this purgatory state the opportunity to hear their teachings.  Ultimately, the choice as to whether or not they decide to believe in Christ and live by his teachings is still up to them...the symbolic act of "baptism" simply opens the door in case they want to walk through it.

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Jesus and Satan = 'Spirit Brothers'

True, I suppose.  Mormons believe that all beings are "spirit children" of God, but that Jesus is the only one who was made flesh.  There is no equivalence drawn from the statement that they are 'spirit brothers', rather just that they were descended from the same divine lineage.

For the record, I'm not an active Mormon and haven't been for nearly 20 years.  However, I was brought up in the LDS church and most of my family (including my wife) are still very active.  I don't believe most of what they do, but it does bug me a bit when I see it misrepresented. 
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hepcat
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« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2012, 12:15:00 AM »

I'm curious as to what specific church ATB claims membership.  Also, I wonder if his proven ignorance of Mormonism can be attributed to them or just poor research on his part?  

Question for ATB:  would you support a Jewish or even Muslim candidate if they espoused policies you could get behind?  Or is the prerequisite for POTUS based on their being a Christian by your definition?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 12:22:45 AM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2012, 01:13:12 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 26, 2012, 12:15:00 AM

Also, I wonder if his proven ignorance of Mormonism can be attributed to them or just poor research on his part?

That's completely unfair because this is a classic religion argument, in that both sides claim something but the truth lies somewhere inbetween. Christians are going to claim Mormons are out there, Mormons are going to paint the picture they aren't. Neither side proved anything in this exchange that you could plead ignorance of ATB. No offense to Gratch, but his argument was pretty much out of the book denial arguments. The fact is they do hold Joseph Smith to great esteem (and his reputation is questionable at best), they do baptize famous dead people against their family's protests, they do wear magic underwear, they do treat the Book of Mormon as an equal to the Bible, they were openly racist until recently, etc.
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