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Author Topic: Religious Hatred........Why?  (Read 2403 times)
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Scuzz
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« on: December 04, 2008, 12:09:15 AM »

It is very obvious on the web as a whole that religion is seen as the great evil, which is somewhat ironic. Any attempt to discuss something involving religion leads to attacks on religion. Why?

It is not just this site. I have seen it on several forums.

I personally don't care for organized religion as I find it hard to deal with people who are so sure that they are right. Their cult is right, that cult is wrong.

But why do you hate religion? And it does seem to be a hate with some of you.

Is it the religious right wing? Is it the social implications of religion (anti-gay, anti-abortion)? Is it the mistaken belief that the US has a seperation of church and state clause, as none exists? What causes the rancor that exists with some of you?

I am not for/against religion. I really don't give a damn. But I don't "hate" it as some of you do.

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Lee
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2008, 12:43:48 AM »

Because of the way Christians have treated me throughout my life from the utter look of shock on their faces when they find out I am an atheist, to trying to convert me and disrespecting my beliefs ("I'll pray for you"). Them trying to inflict their beliefs on society and then over reacting when not everyone agrees makes it even worse. Plus the disdain for anyone who doesn't share their beliefs is a turn off (like I keep mentioning, Mormons, or that God forbid Obama might be a Muslim).

I know I come across as a huge Christian hater, but in reality I get on quite well with devout Christians once they realize they aren't going to convert me we usually enjoy debating and discussing our beliefs.
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2008, 01:47:16 AM »

I don't hate.  I love....


to make fun of it  icon_twisted
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the Nightbreeze
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2008, 02:04:51 AM »

The internet that I see worships cats with barely functional literacy and the ability to operate a PC.

Biases sometimes depend on what is observed, and sometimes on the observer.

That said, taking a half-baked, stab in the dark guess, perhaps some people hate the way some participants of some systems of belief behave to other people more than the tenets of the system of belief being discussed.  Also, Christianity gets brought up a great deal by both those who adhere and those who do not, and with great volume of comments one finds more opportunity for some of those comments to be unflattering about the subject.  Additionally. People who don't care about a subject will not bother to add anything to a discussion on that subject. Only the people who are passionate for it, or those with an beef with it have any motivation to put anything in to the pot.  So it would be folly to assume if one reads a majority of comments in a disparaging light, the majority of people in the population or even in a thread are also "down on Christianity" or what have you depending on the subject.  It just means more comments came down on one side rather than another because of the people who were moved to participate trended so, temporarily.
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2008, 02:20:22 AM »

Ironically, I've gotten the hateful end of the stick from both hardcore Christians AND from hardcore atheists. I can understand people having an irrational hatred of either side depending on who they've had to deal with in their lifetime.

My personal loathing is directed at the fundamentalist sects that I grew up in, as I've learned the more time passes that what they really want is a theocratic world with (their kind of) Christians running it and (their version of) the Bible legislated.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2008, 03:08:02 AM »

I hate religion, nut I don't hate religious people. I think part of the ease of instantly launching into anti-religious diatribes online is that I don't know the people I'm confronting personally, so it's easier to attack their personal beliefs.

I'd never tell my mom that her belief is not just ignorant but harmful for her mental health. Instead, I'll just say "ok mom" whenever she says "pray for me."
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2008, 03:32:53 AM »

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Religious Hatred........Why?

Because, speaking frankly as a Christian, we've been assholes and gotten caught up in irrelevant crap instead of setting a loving, Christlike example.  It's why I'm no longer an evangelical.
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Ironrod
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2008, 03:36:32 AM »

Holier-than-thou.
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2008, 03:44:47 AM »

I think Church has no place in the State. Common moral ground is established; we can all abide by those laws without praising god. For me (agnostic) I do believe that there is something out there; I just don't think the big 3 have gotten it right.

There is a long history of corruption and control in the past, and I agree with Kevin Smith when he put out the comment in Dogma that people should have ideas instead of beliefs; no one should be motivated to kill another based on religion - tying a belief into that causes a lot of those problems. Furthermore, to cast aside the label "cult" is dishonest and clearly a twisted perception: "culture" comes from "cult". Just because there is a definition that suggests illegitimacy doesn't mean the word doesn't fit.

I don't condemn those who don't believe in god, I don't capitalize god since I'm not sure that he/she/it/them cares. If "God" is the Christian one, I'm sure he'll understand. If it's Zeus, we're all screwed anyways.
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2008, 05:41:39 AM »

My reasons for hating religion are largely personal. I saw first hand my father go through the divorce with my mother and turn himself over to religion to ease his pain. He practically became a zombie. Reasoning had no place in his mind - he completely surrendered to religion and I saw before my eyes his change into someone who was no longer himself, who no longer thought his own thoughts. It was scary as hell. Largely due to that, although there were other reasons, I did not talk to my father for about 17 years. A little over a year ago I went down to see him because he was dying of cancer. He asked me if I was a good Christian who gave myself to Jesus. I lied to his face and said yes. Everyone tells me it was the right thing to do, to appease him while he's on his deathbed, but to this day I am pissed off that I had to lie to my father about who I am because if he knew the truth he would not have accepted me.

However, I have reasons for not hating religion as well which I may go into later. To me, it seems most on the internet hate religion because they want to seem intellectual and cynical. It may be intellectual to dissect the arguments for God, but wisdom has taught me that even logic and intellectualism can only get you so far. There are a large number of people much smarter than I who know in their hearts that God exists. It is not my place to tell them they are wrong any more than it's their place to tell me I should be religious.
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 07:03:51 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 04, 2008, 12:09:15 AM

It is very obvious on the web as a whole that religion is seen as the great evil, which is somewhat ironic.


That's a completely ridiculous overgeneralization.  There is more on the web than this forum.  I could find just as many places where religious people treat dissenters with just as much, if not more, disrespect and contempt.
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2008, 01:51:26 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 04, 2008, 12:09:15 AM

It is very obvious on the web as a whole that religion is seen as the great evil, which is somewhat ironic.

Its really not that ironic at all to many people. Great evil DOES come from religion. Open your eyes.

The internet is the only place people can truly speak about their disdain for religion without fear of repercussions, at least for a large number of folks. i.e. I think it was always there, just no where to talk about it.

I also think a lot of it is reciprocated angry/hatred. i.e. many religions preach a lot of hatred and vile toward atheist/non-believers (which is not helped by the fact the internets let us see the worst of the worst in this regard). It is only human to react to that with equal intensity.

Lastly, I think some people feel that the internet by its very nature is a vehicle of science, which of course often goes head to head with religion. So its akin to going to some science convention or venue and expressing your religious views. What do you expect to happen?


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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2008, 04:13:17 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on December 04, 2008, 05:41:39 AM

It may be intellectual to dissect the arguments for God, but wisdom has taught me that even logic and intellectualism can only get you so far. There are a large number of people much smarter than I who know in their hearts that God exists. It is not my place to tell them they are wrong any more than it's their place to tell me I should be religious.

I don't like to do the QFT thing often, but I absolutely have to use it here. Very well written Cheeba, I fully agree with this perspective.

I believe. I just don't dig many religious organizations and the crap that comes with them (particularly the promotion of hatred, divisiveness, and willful ignorance).
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Scuzz
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2008, 04:44:00 PM »

Personally the idea of a god doesn't bother me. It is the way it is put into practice thru organized religions.

Now I know the chirsitian religion has shattered into a million entities. And Islam is divided into groups that don't agree. Are there different Buddhists sects? Must be.

One more thing. The old arguement of seperation of church and state. I am right in thinking that came from Jefferson's writings and is not actually anywhere in the US constitution?

It is very obvious on the web as a whole that religion is seen as the great evil, which is somewhat ironic.

That's a completely ridiculous overgeneralization.  There is more on the web than this forum.  I could find just as many places where religious people treat dissenters with just as much, if not more, disrespect and contempt


My comment is based more on the observation that I have seen it on non-political/non-religious sites. CBSSportsline.com is full of anti-religion threads. Granted most are aimed at pissing someone off but the positive responses are vitriolic.
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Jeff
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2008, 05:38:02 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 04, 2008, 04:44:00 PM

My comment is based more on the observation that I have seen it on non-political/non-religious sites. CBSSportsline.com is full of anti-religion threads. Granted most are aimed at pissing someone off but the positive responses are vitriolic.

Often times, solid arguments against various religions are viewed by religious folks (or those sympathetic to religion) as being "vitriolic" or "militant". In my view, religion has always seemed to have had an 'off-limits' mentality by the general public. You can rail against someone's politics, but religion ... whoa there buddy, calm down, you're a "militant" for daring to question my preciously held beliefs! People seem to take it very personally.

In day to day dealings with regular people, I can't even use the very word 'atheist' to describe myself to someone, lest I receive looks of disdain or disgust, and it's as if I've just told someone I want to rape their children. Christians are often genuinely amazed that I don't believe in a god that they themselves have never seen, heard or encountered in any way except in their imagination. I am told by them that because I don't believe in their "loving" god, that this loving god is going to set me on fire one day and torture me forever in a place called hell.

As someone else has stated already, the internet gives a voice to those who have not had one. We (atheists and agnostics) have been demonized for hundreds of years by Christian preachers in the pulpit. We are viewed as being without morals, and akin to followers of Satan. We are the least respected minority group in the U.S., and you wonder why you see hostility online from unbelievers?
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Blackadar
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2008, 09:23:01 PM »

I don't hate religion.  It gives someone hope, helps them get through their day, for some it provides a moral code and in general helps a great many people be better people.

I hate organized religion.  I think belief in God is a personal matter.  When it gets organized, it gets lost.  Organized religions generally stress "us versus them", groupthink and rigid conformity.  Worse yet, some sects want to impose that conformity and groupthink on the general public.  When I see the Catholic Church organizing pickets outside abortion clinics because their view of their God tells them that's wrong, I get angry.  When the Mormons spend huge amounts of money trying to get Prop 8 passed in CA to legalize discrimination (and then have the gall to claim tax-exempt status), I get angry.  When fundamentalist Baptists try to get nativity scenes displayed on public grounds yet don't want displays by any other group, I get angry.  When people use God to justify killing Muslims, drinking Kool-Aid or have sex with underage kids, I get angry.

So I'm a big fan of religion.  I despise organized religion.
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2008, 09:27:37 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on December 04, 2008, 09:23:01 PM

I don't hate religion.  It gives someone hope, helps them get through their day, for some it provides a moral code and in general helps a great many people be better people.

I hate organized religion.  I think belief in God is a personal matter.  When it gets organized, it gets lost.  Organized religions generally stress "us versus them", groupthink and rigid conformity.  Worse yet, some sects want to impose that conformity and groupthink on the general public.  When I see the Catholic Church organizing pickets outside abortion clinics because their view of their God tells them that's wrong, I get angry.  When the Mormons spend huge amounts of money trying to get Prop 8 passed in CA to legalize discrimination (and then have the gall to claim tax-exempt status), I get angry.  When fundamentalist Baptists try to get nativity scenes displayed on public grounds yet don't want displays by any other group, I get angry.  When people use God to justify killing Muslims, drinking Kool-Aid or have sex with underage kids, I get angry.

So I'm a big fan of religion.  I despise organized religion.

Very well said, and mirrors my feelings exactly.
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2008, 09:28:04 PM »

+1 to everything Blackadar said.

To paraphrase Chris Rock from the movie Dogma - "I just think it's better to have ideas. A belief is much stronger. People have wars over beliefs. People die over them."

That's true - even in our daily life. We have a pseudo-war between the church and school over the teaching of evolution versus creationism.

Also to paraphrase Jay from the movie Dogma - "Big tittied women don't just fall out of the sky every day you know!"
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2008, 09:36:54 PM »

Most of the time I see forumers hating on religion their criticisms only really apply to Abrahamic religions.  Maybe it's just because I had a lot of Buddhist influence growing up but it feels like a shame that Eastern religions get lumped in with the resentment.  Case in point, just about every single reason to dislike religion given in this particular thread so far is directed at things specific to Western religion.

Not that Eastern religions are perfect, mind you, but in general I think the majority of them have a lot less cause for resentment.
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2008, 10:10:12 PM »

I also think there's one really antiquated belief that causes a lot of issues. "If you believe in God, you're going to heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell." Sound familiar? How many religions believe that?

So if I pick the wrong religion, I'm going to hell? Not a chance. God should be tolerant. As long as you believe - or even if you don't - as long as you've lived a good life and been kind to everyone as best you can - why would you go to hell for choosing Buddhism over Christianity?

I promote tolerance and understanding in my daily life. Try everything I can to not get mad at others, not offend others. If you think that your prodestant neighbour is going to hell because you're catholic - that's your right to think that way. If you try to force your beliefs - that's wrong. Push your good will and kindness onto others - don't push your intolerance of other belief systems onto others. 
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2008, 10:24:03 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on December 04, 2008, 09:36:54 PM

Most of the time I see forumers hating on religion their criticisms only really apply to Abrahamic religions.  Maybe it's just because I had a lot of Buddhist influence growing up but it feels like a shame that Eastern religions get lumped in with the resentment.  Case in point, just about every single reason to dislike religion given in this particular thread so far is directed at things specific to Western religion.

Not that Eastern religions are perfect, mind you, but in general I think the majority of them have a lot less cause for resentment.

This is a great point. I think this has to do with the fact that most of the monotheistic, and especially the Abrahamic religions have been extremely aggressive (historically) in their desire to convert others or force others to their will and views. Often this was (and still is) done with violence.

Like Blackadar said, I have nothing against personal religious views, and I even fully understand the very human desire to want to continue to live beyond the grave - to want there to be something more. What I hate is aggression from religion, and organized religion attempting to force others, through legal means or otherwise to their belief systems.

Of course in the U.S. (and the west in general) we're going to focus on those religions that affect our day to day lives.
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2008, 10:37:01 PM »

My father in law went thru the born again thing years ago. They lived near a naval base and would have young sailors who went to the same church over for the holiday meals. I often ended up getting in "polite" discussions with them over the heaven and pergatory thing.

The item that stuck in my craw was the arguement that even little kids who died in far away non-christian countries could not get into heaven without accepting the proper God. They went to pergatory. I figure if these guys were right I am going to be spending an eternity with a bunch of people I can't understand.
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2008, 03:33:03 AM »

Quote from: DragonFyre on December 04, 2008, 10:10:12 PM

I also think there's one really antiquated belief that causes a lot of issues. "If you believe in God, you're going to heaven. If you don't, you're going to hell." Sound familiar? How many religions believe that?

So if I pick the wrong religion, I'm going to hell? Not a chance. God should be tolerant. As long as you believe - or even if you don't - as long as you've lived a good life and been kind to everyone as best you can - why would you go to hell for choosing Buddhism over Christianity?

I promote tolerance and understanding in my daily life. Try everything I can to not get mad at others, not offend others. If you think that your prodestant neighbour is going to hell because you're catholic - that's your right to think that way. If you try to force your beliefs - that's wrong. Push your good will and kindness onto others - don't push your intolerance of other belief systems onto others. 

C.S. Lewis, in the final book of the Narnia series, has a character who is one of the Calormen who worship Tash, the evil deity of that world. In the end, because he was a good and faithful man to what he knew in his heart was the truth (true goodness, that which Aslan represents), Aslan accepts him as one of his followers.

That's my concept of God. It's not so much what you say, or who you say you worship, or any of that. It's who you are that matters. That's universal, and doesn't matter if you even believe in any sort of god or religion.

This perspective of mine is one of the ways in which I differ from many Christians, and am probably not even considered one by their standards. And that's fine. I'm at peace with my beliefs, and am happy to discuss them with anyone who wishes, and I don't have a need to "convert" people or judge them by what they believe. The only people I have a problem with are those who allow their greed or arrogance to brew hatred amongst others, and those people are abundant in all corners of life from my experience, from the dregs of society to the most seemingly "holy" church.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2008, 06:40:03 AM »

Quote from: DragonFyre on December 04, 2008, 10:10:12 PM

So if I pick the wrong religion, I'm going to hell? Not a chance. God should be tolerant. As long as you believe - or even if you don't - as long as you've lived a good life and been kind to everyone as best you can - why would you go to hell for choosing Buddhism over Christianity?

If the right religion is Christian then you'll go to hell for choosing the wrong one. But if the right religion is Buddhism then it doesn't matter if you choose Buddhism or any other religion, you'll go to hell or heaven based on if you're a good person or not. The law of karma will affect you, you don't need to believe in it or know about it. You can be a hard core christian that never heard of Buddhism teaching and you'll still be able to go to Buddhism's heaven if you're a good person.

So I guess it is smart not to choose religion like Buddhism since there is no risk of punishment for doing that.
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2008, 12:29:29 PM »

I didn't think Buddhism believed in Heaven as a place in the afterlife.
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« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2008, 01:43:40 PM »

Quote from: warning on December 05, 2008, 12:29:29 PM

I didn't think Buddhism believed in Heaven as a place in the afterlife.

They believe in some form of heaven which is also just a temporary place. There are multiple world and heaven is just one of them which is a slight upgrade to our current one. If you're a good person, you'll be reincarnated to a better place (for example Heaven/Paradise). If you're bad person then you will be reincarnated to worst place. But the goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of reincarnation and finally get the ultimate rest.

I guess we can think of Buddhism as the concept of immortals that can't permanently die who want to search for a way to finally die.
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« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2008, 09:33:05 PM »

I think to understand peoples reaction to religion you have to view religion in it's historical context, and that history goes far back. Certainly far more detailed and extensive than the history most people are typically taught in school. Much of what I think people are reacting to in NA are recent actions and words of people who are evangelizing the semitic/Abrahamic religions. And many of those actions and words stem from doctrine that are deep rooted in history.

Having ancient history/studies as a hobby -yes I know I'm weird- I've been lucky to have read a lot about the formation of religious thought, politicization and conflict. I always have a lot of mixed emotions about religion and the so called 'church'. Whereas I can definitely see the danger of mixing state and religion -and like many I'm opposed to it- I can also see the significant and benevolent contributions many members of churches have made to humanity throughout history. And yes some of those contributions came in an environment when the church held dominion over much of the state. Although I have more in depth knowledge of Western civ history, I do know enough about Eastern history to know it's a mistake to think that Eastern religions haven't been guilty of atrocities too; yes even some acting in the name of Buddhism.

I do think Christianity in particular is going to be in a rough ride for the next few years; especially the Catholic church. For one the leaders of the Catholic church somehow in their minds though it appropriate to elect Joseph Ratzinger as their new pope Benedict XVI. Based on the current state of conflict between semitic religions I don't see where it's appropriate to have a man that was once in the Hitler Youth or even under the influence of 'Hitler's Cardinal' during his formative years as a pope. And yes I know he was begrudgingly a member of the HY and his father was somewhat opposed to Nazism, but there's such a thing as a prudent and diplomatically wise move even for the Catholic church. So far he's managed to expound some real fuel for controversy regarding Turkey, Islamism and pre-Columban indigenous people; and that's just after 3 years in office!

As well the recent Christian evenangelical movements in the US military -ie Air Force Academy at Colorado Springs- is a negative and serious development and could well lead to a dangerous scenario for the new Obama administration. Add to that the recent official apology by the Spanish government for the inquisition and recent calls by groups for an apology from The Catholic church on the extermination of the Templars and there's plenty of reasons why people may form a negative opinion.

I don't think I even need to go into detail about Judaism and Islamism as no doubt everyone here is well aware of how actions from certain minorities are casting those faiths in a very negative light.
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« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2008, 11:25:24 PM »

Quote
Add to that the recent official apology by the Spanish government for the inquisition and recent calls by groups for an apology from The Catholic church on the extermination of the Templars and there's plenty of reasons why people may form a negative opinion.

I can kinda understand the Spanish Inquisition apology (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition), but who is upset about the Templars. The Da' Vinci Code fan club....
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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2008, 12:44:42 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 05, 2008, 11:25:24 PM

Quote
Add to that the recent official apology by the Spanish government for the inquisition and recent calls by groups for an apology from The Catholic church on the extermination of the Templars and there's plenty of reasons why people may form a negative opinion.

I can kinda understand the Spanish Inquisition apology (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition), but who is upset about the Templars. The Da' Vinci Code fan club....

The Templars still exist as an organization and have members in many European countires; current Grand Master resides in Portugal. As well many Mason's still hold the Templars in high regard and they even have a youth organization for boys called the Order of DeMolay which is named after the last medieval Templar Grand Master; Jacques DeMolay. DeMolay was murdered, in 1309 IIRC, on orders from the Catholic church. You're right that the DaVinci Code created a lot of interest in the fate of the Templars, but it's really Henry Lincoln's speculative history books which Dan Brown took ideas from that started the more mordern revival. Some of Lincoln's books, particulary The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, were very big sellers in Europe.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2008, 12:49:28 AM »

I have heard of the Order of DeMolay. I had no idea they were somehow tied into the Templars....

And of course my dad is a Mason.........
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« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2008, 12:57:36 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 06, 2008, 12:49:28 AM

I have heard of the Order of DeMolay. I had no idea they were somehow tied into the Templars....

And of course my dad is a Mason.........

Yeah there's been quite a lot written about a link between the the Knights Templar and the later Free Mason movement. I don't know if anyone's come up with conclusive historical evidence of a link, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone eventually does.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2008, 08:19:21 AM »

My grandfather and uncle were/are Masons.  My Dad - went Air Force.  I've thought about looking into the Masons myself, just never pulled the trigger.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2008, 04:54:47 PM »

Neither me or my brothers followed my Dad into the Masons. I don't have the religion for it and we just aren't joiners that way. I have heard here in town that it is an ageing group.
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