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Author Topic: Redskins Lose Trademark  (Read 3022 times)
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hepcat
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« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2014, 02:06:43 PM »

Just to be fair:  Scraper has never given me reason to believe in any way, shape or form that he's racist. 
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« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2014, 02:15:19 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on June 19, 2014, 02:03:58 PM

Quote from: Scraper on June 19, 2014, 01:46:12 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 01:05:33 PM

Quote from: Scraper on June 19, 2014, 12:50:21 PM

The biggest problem I have with it is that we have a branch of the government deciding what is and isn't "offensive" based on speech. If you guys so clearly want to believe in the free market then why can't the USPTO sit back and watch the trademark wither away because the American people don't buy the products it's associated with?  

Why is it is so difficult to understand that this is out and out racism.  Redskin is NOT a tribal name, nor is it a person's name.  It's a racist slur.  Indians have been trying to get it banned for ages.  This isn't a new endeavor created by a "PC crowd".  If there was a team called the New York Kikes or the San Diego Tar Babies, would that be okay?  

And the American people have repeatedly proven that they aren't ALWAYS going to do the right thing.  As a matter of fact, if the government DIDN'T step in from time to time, we'd still have lynchings, whites only water fountains and segregation in many areas.

1. I never denied that it's offensive or racist.

2. Lynchings, whites only water fountains, and segregation are a far cry from a corporate logo and team name. In fact they're not even in the same ball park. We're not talking about basic human rights here, what we're talking about is hurting people's feelings. It's a slippery slope when the government starts making decisions based off of hurt feelings.
I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but the fact that Zeke agrees with you could be a hint that you might be wrong on this one. smile

I'm not so sure that Zeke does agree with me. His opinion from what I can tell is "Damn liberals are trying to force change on us again". My opinion is more rooted in the fact that I don't think the Government should decide what "hurts people feelings". The free market should do that in this case because it is a company selling a product. In this case the product name just happens to be offensive.

I know there are limits to the "Free Market" principle. We can't let companies do whatever they want all the time. In this case though we seem to be saying "it's ok for the government to deny trademark protection because the trademark hurts people's feelings". Which to me is a huge difference from a company that is actively denying people's rights or actively hurting the community. "Feelings" can be tricky.
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« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2014, 02:21:43 PM »

Honest question. Does the First Amendment extend to trademarks/patent rights?
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forgeforsaken
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« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2014, 02:23:19 PM »

Pretty sure that's always been the way though, you can't trademark obscenity or vulgarity.  The issue is what falls into those buckets does change over time and with society.
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« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2014, 02:30:21 PM »

You don't see racist slurs in product names on the shelves of your local store, right?  While it's mostly due to manufacturers not being that stupid, it's also because trademarks ARE federally regulated.  Being denied a trademark isn't something new.  That it took this long to happen is the surprising part.  

And while it may be seen as "PC", why is that a bad thing?  Shouldn't we STRIVE to be racially sensitive?

And this isn't a case of someone being denied the use of a name by the government.  They can still use the name as long as they want.  They just can't claim government protection for it.  The free market is most certainly NOT in any danger over this.
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« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2014, 02:33:17 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on June 19, 2014, 02:21:43 PM

Honest question. Does the First Amendment extend to trademarks/patent rights?

No. This is not a free speech issue in any way, shape, or form.
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« Reply #46 on: June 19, 2014, 02:34:45 PM »

Scraper, you're feelings on this issue are conservative-based. So not only do I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far, it has to include "damn liberals are trying to force change on us again"

So with the ganging-up on me, the minority on this forum, here already, I want to know when is the majority going to step in and defend me? My feelings are getting hurt. Where is the compassion????????

 icon_razz
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« Reply #47 on: June 19, 2014, 02:38:21 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:34:45 PM

Scraper, you're feelings on this issue are conservative-based. So not only do I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far, it has to include "damn liberals are trying to force change on us again"

So with the ganging-up on me, the minority on this forum, here already, I want to know when is the majority going to step in and defend me? My feelings are getting hurt. Where is the compassion????????

 icon_razz

I thought a hands off approach on government regulations was a conservative principle.  All we are talking about here is the deregulation of the usage of Redskins as applied to sports teams.  Shouldn't you be in favor?
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« Reply #48 on: June 19, 2014, 02:38:26 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 02:30:21 PM


And while it may be seen as "PC", why is that a bad thing?  Shouldn't we STRIVE to be racially sensitive?



Strive? Sure. But by choice.
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« Reply #49 on: June 19, 2014, 02:40:04 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 19, 2014, 02:38:21 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:34:45 PM

Scraper, you're feelings on this issue are conservative-based. So not only do I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far, it has to include "damn liberals are trying to force change on us again"

So with the ganging-up on me, the minority on this forum, here already, I want to know when is the majority going to step in and defend me? My feelings are getting hurt. Where is the compassion????????

 icon_razz

I thought a hands off approach on government regulations was a conservative principle.  All we are talking about here is the deregulation of the usage of Redskins as applied to sports teams.  Shouldn't you be in favor?

Deregulated? Umm, no.....that would mean they can use whatever name they please.

The way it should be.
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forgeforsaken
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« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2014, 02:42:28 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:40:04 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 19, 2014, 02:38:21 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:34:45 PM

Scraper, you're feelings on this issue are conservative-based. So not only do I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far, it has to include "damn liberals are trying to force change on us again"

So with the ganging-up on me, the minority on this forum, here already, I want to know when is the majority going to step in and defend me? My feelings are getting hurt. Where is the compassion????????

 icon_razz

I thought a hands off approach on government regulations was a conservative principle.  All we are talking about here is the deregulation of the usage of Redskins as applied to sports teams.  Shouldn't you be in favor?

Deregulated? Umm, no.....that would mean they can use whatever name they please.

The way it should be.

But they can.  No one is making them change the name, the government is just saying they will no longer help them in instances where other parties name their teams the Redskins, or produce Redskin jerseys etc.  The government is saying, hey, you are on your own if you want to go with that.

Really, people that are upset about the trademark rejection are in fact arguing for government involvement. 

Cognitive dissonance kicking in yet Zekester?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 02:47:12 PM by forgeforsaken » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2014, 02:52:10 PM »

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 19, 2014, 02:42:28 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:40:04 PM

Quote from: forgeforsaken on June 19, 2014, 02:38:21 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:34:45 PM

Scraper, you're feelings on this issue are conservative-based. So not only do I agree with pretty much everything you've said in this thread so far, it has to include "damn liberals are trying to force change on us again"

So with the ganging-up on me, the minority on this forum, here already, I want to know when is the majority going to step in and defend me? My feelings are getting hurt. Where is the compassion????????

 icon_razz


I thought a hands off approach on government regulations was a conservative principle.  All we are talking about here is the deregulation of the usage of Redskins as applied to sports teams.  Shouldn't you be in favor?

Deregulated? Umm, no.....that would mean they can use whatever name they please.

The way it should be.

But they can.  No one is making them change the name, the government is just saying they will no longer help them in instances where other parties name their teams the Redskins, or produce Redskin jerseys etc.  The government is saying, hey, you are on your own if you want to go with that.

Really, people that are upset about the trademark rejection are in fact arguing for government involvement. 

Cognitive dissonance kicking in yet Zekester?

The Gov't is in fact denying the team's right to protect it's patent. This is different.

So let's take this PC stuff to the extreme......let's say the left manages to remove all words they feel are disparaging, then the right does the same, where do we end up? How far does this go? We're talking about words. Any word could be deemed offensive to anyone as some point.

It's absurdity.
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hepcat
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« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2014, 02:54:32 PM »

The only absurd thing here is your desire to equate the word "apple" with calling someone the n word.  

Do you believe the government should protect ANY word used in a trademark in order to allow that trademark to make money?
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« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2014, 02:57:46 PM »

The BET Channel is racist, and offends me. There is no WET Channel, so why are the rules different?

Absurdity.
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« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2014, 02:59:19 PM »

Why is the BET offensive to you?  Because it features African Americans?

And you do have a WET.  It's called "everything other than BET".
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« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2014, 03:01:26 PM »

Who said anything about the n word hepcat? You're being idiotic, and you offended me with this.

The PC crowd, or any person bent on forcing others to think like they do, are far more offensive to me than any particular race could be.
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« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2014, 03:03:59 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 02:59:19 PM

Why is the BET offensive to you?  Because it features African Americans?

And you do have a WET.  It's called "everything other than BET".

Now this is one of the most racist things i've ever heard on any forum.
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« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2014, 03:04:21 PM »

You were the one who said a channel featuring African Americans offended you.  
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« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2014, 03:04:49 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:52:10 PM

The Gov't is in fact denying the team's right to protect it's patent. This is different.

Trademark, not patent. This is different.

Quote
So let's take this PC stuff to the extreme......let's say the left manages to remove all words they feel are disparaging, then the right does the same, where do we end up? How far does this go? We're talking about words. Any word could be deemed offensive to anyone as some point.

It's absurdity.

What's absurd is a slippery slope argument. Racist and other slurs, profanity, these things aren't defined arbitrarily. And this isn't proactive government action. A complaint was filed, and adjudicated under the process laid out by law.
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« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2014, 03:06:17 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:57:46 PM

The BET Channel is racist, and offends me. There is no WET Channel, so why are the rules different?

Is there a bigoted slur or profanity in the name BET? If so, you could complain that it should not be granted a trademark. Otherwise, the comparison falls flat.
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« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2014, 03:07:14 PM »

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:04:49 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:52:10 PM

The Gov't is in fact denying the team's right to protect it's patent. This is different.

Trademark, not patent. This is different.

Quote
So let's take this PC stuff to the extreme......let's say the left manages to remove all words they feel are disparaging, then the right does the same, where do we end up? How far does this go? We're talking about words. Any word could be deemed offensive to anyone as some point.

It's absurdity.

what's the matter, don't like the idea of this? why not just play along and answer?
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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2014, 03:08:06 PM »

You're hardly in a position to call someone out for not answering questions considering you still haven't answered

Quote
Do you believe the government should protect ANY word used in a trademark in order to allow that trademark to make money?
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« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2014, 03:10:18 PM »

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:06:17 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:57:46 PM

The BET Channel is racist, and offends me. There is no WET Channel, so why are the rules different?

Is there a bigoted slur or profanity in the name BET? If so, you could complain that it should not be granted a trademark. Otherwise, the comparison falls flat.

There is no White Entertainment Channel......or any other race-only-in-name channel that i'm aware of. Why is a minority allowed to break their own moral-rule?

Just the fact that there is no WET Channel proves that therwe should be no BET, if we're gonna play by the PC-crowd, racism rules.
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« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2014, 03:11:46 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:08:06 PM

You're hardly in a position to call someone out for not answering questions considering you still haven't answered

Quote
Do you believe the government should protect ANY word used in a trademark in order to allow that trademark to make money?

Yes, I do.

It's not the US Gov't job to dictate what words come out of Americans mouths.
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« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2014, 03:11:56 PM »

I genuinely cannot understand a single logical reason why people would be OK with calling a team the Redskins. It's fucking baffling.
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« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2014, 03:14:04 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:10:18 PM

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:06:17 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:57:46 PM

The BET Channel is racist, and offends me. There is no WET Channel, so why are the rules different?

Is there a bigoted slur or profanity in the name BET? If so, you could complain that it should not be granted a trademark. Otherwise, the comparison falls flat.

There is no White Entertainment Channel......or any other race-only-in-name channel that i'm aware of. Why is a minority allowed to break their own moral-rule?

Just the fact that there is no WET Channel proves that therwe should be no BET, if we're gonna play by the PC-crowd, racism rules.

There could certainly be a WET from a legal/government standpoint. No laws against it. It's just such a confoundingly stupid idea that no one has done it.
It's awful marketing and PR.

By the way there are # of asian specific channels with either Asia or specific countries referenced in the name. It's not just BET.
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« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2014, 03:14:31 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:11:46 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:08:06 PM

You're hardly in a position to call someone out for not answering questions considering you still haven't answered

Quote
Do you believe the government should protect ANY word used in a trademark in order to allow that trademark to make money?

Yes, I do.

It's not the US Gov't job to dictate what words come out of Americans mouths.

So you're okay with yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater?  

Also,what if someone created a line of condoms using your girlfriend's name and words insinuating that she uses them with all her tricks?  

Of course you would be upset.  And you would have every right to be.  No one should be able to profit off something like that.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 03:17:52 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2014, 03:19:41 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:14:31 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:11:46 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:08:06 PM

You're hardly in a position to call someone out for not answering questions considering you still haven't answered

Quote
Do you believe the government should protect ANY word used in a trademark in order to allow that trademark to make money?

Yes, I do.

It's not the US Gov't job to dictate what words come out of Americans mouths.

So you're okay with yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater?  

Also,what if someone created a line of condoms using your girlfriend's name and words insinuating that she uses them with all her tricks?  

Of course you would be upset.  And you would have every right to be.  No one should be able to profit off something like that.



says who? you?

who is the almighty word dictator in your world?
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« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2014, 03:20:52 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:10:18 PM

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:06:17 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:57:46 PM

The BET Channel is racist, and offends me. There is no WET Channel, so why are the rules different?

Is there a bigoted slur or profanity in the name BET? If so, you could complain that it should not be granted a trademark. Otherwise, the comparison falls flat.

There is no White Entertainment Channel......or any other race-only-in-name channel that i'm aware of. Why is a minority allowed to break their own moral-rule?

Just the fact that there is no WET Channel proves that therwe should be no BET, if we're gonna play by the PC-crowd, racism rules.

Straw men upon straw men.  We are talking specifically about a slur here, not a race only name.  Basically change the Fighting Irish to the Fighting Micks or Taigs and you'd have a somewhat fair comparison.
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« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2014, 03:21:37 PM »

I have honestly never heard "taig" before.   icon_confused

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:19:41 PM

who is the almighty word dictator in your world?

Folks who aren't racist and think it's funny to insult others based on their color, religion or sexual preference?
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« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2014, 03:22:57 PM »

you all defending this type of thing are fine with it until the right gets a hold of the same power and uses it.

lol it's baffling to me that you're not realizing it.
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« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2014, 03:23:07 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:10:18 PM

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:06:17 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 02:57:46 PM

The BET Channel is racist, and offends me. There is no WET Channel, so why are the rules different?

Is there a bigoted slur or profanity in the name BET? If so, you could complain that it should not be granted a trademark. Otherwise, the comparison falls flat.

There is no White Entertainment Channel......or any other race-only-in-name channel that i'm aware of. Why is a minority allowed to break their own moral-rule?

Just the fact that there is no WET Channel proves that therwe should be no BET, if we're gonna play by the PC-crowd, racism rules.

So start one. No one is saying that BET gets to exist by law, but a WET doesn't. If you want there to be a "White Entertainment Television" channel, go ahead and start one. Since, like BET, there's no racial slur in the name, you could even trademark it. This is a complete nonsequitor  
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« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2014, 03:24:22 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:21:37 PM

I have honestly never heard "taig" before.   icon_confused

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:19:41 PM

who is the almighty word dictator in your world?

Folks who aren't racist and think it's funny to insult others based on their color, religion or sexual preference?

according to you

I want to deem the word hepcat to be offensive and therefore removed here. by your logic, would you go along with it?

and no one is laughing at Indians. They're enjoying the hell out of rooting for their beloved Indian-named team! LOL
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« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2014, 03:24:52 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:22:57 PM

you all defending this type of thing are fine with it until the right gets a hold of the same power and uses it.

lol it's baffling to me that you're not realizing it.

The law says you can't use bigoted pejorative terms or profanity in trademarked names. How could this be abused? There's an appeals process, so it's not like you can just wave your hand and say "Apple is now a racist word, so that trademark is revoked!" The only one here positing unlimited power on behalf of the Trademark & Patent Office is you.
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« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2014, 03:25:56 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:22:57 PM

you all defending this type of thing are fine with it until the right gets a hold of the same power and uses it.

lol it's baffling to me that you're not realizing it.

I'm fine with conservatives trying to stop racist terms from being used in trademarks.

The best part of this discussion is watching people repeatedly trying to explain to Zeke why calling someone an Indian isn't offensive but calling them a Redskin is, and Zeke completely missing that point.  Zeke hates comprehension like a fish hates dry land.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 03:28:13 PM by hepcat » Logged

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Zekester
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« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2014, 03:26:47 PM »

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:24:52 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:22:57 PM

you all defending this type of thing are fine with it until the right gets a hold of the same power and uses it.

lol it's baffling to me that you're not realizing it.

The law says you can't use bigoted pejorative terms or profanity in trademarked names. How could this be abused? There's an appeals process, so it's not like you can just wave your hand and say "Apple is now a racist word, so that trademark is revoked!" The only one here positing unlimited power on behalf of the Trademark & Patent Office is you.

you're dead wrong. ANY word could be deemed offensive to ANYONE at any given time.

Slippery slope indeed.
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I am....Migaloo
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« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2014, 03:27:31 PM »

Getting past all the arguments, here is what I see as the likely outcome of this case. The Redskins appeal the decision, which is a lengthy process (Their last appeal on this issue took 17 years). While the appeal is open they retain their trade mark protection. BUT the NFL steps in (Much like the NBA) and kindly tells Dan Snyder that they need to change the name and logo. The combination of pressure from the NFL, activist groups and the amount of money the Redskins will have to spend just to appeal this case could be enough to make then "voluntarily" change the name.

ON the other hand Snyder could take the the Donald Sterling approach and say F-you all and fully litigate it. In which case who knows what the outcome will be.
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Zekester
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« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2014, 03:27:39 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:25:56 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:22:57 PM

you all defending this type of thing are fine with it until the right gets a hold of the same power and uses it.

lol it's baffling to me that you're not realizing it.

I'm fine with conservatives trying to stop racist terms from being used in trademarks.

Racist according to us?
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I am....Migaloo
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forgeforsaken
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« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2014, 03:28:20 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:24:22 PM

Quote from: hepcat on June 19, 2014, 03:21:37 PM

I have honestly never heard "taig" before.   icon_confused

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:19:41 PM

who is the almighty word dictator in your world?

Folks who aren't racist and think it's funny to insult others based on their color, religion or sexual preference?

according to you

I want to deem the word hepcat to be offensive and therefore removed here. by your logic, would you go along with it?

and no one is laughing at Indians. They're enjoying the hell out of rooting for their beloved Indian-named team! LOL

Again, he goes to the straw man.  How about you actually address the actual issue.  The word isn't being banned by the government, the government is refusing to protect the exclusive monetization of the word.  
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Fireball
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« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2014, 03:31:06 PM »

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:26:47 PM

Quote from: Fireball on June 19, 2014, 03:24:52 PM

Quote from: Zekester on June 19, 2014, 03:22:57 PM

you all defending this type of thing are fine with it until the right gets a hold of the same power and uses it.

lol it's baffling to me that you're not realizing it.

The law says you can't use bigoted pejorative terms or profanity in trademarked names. How could this be abused? There's an appeals process, so it's not like you can just wave your hand and say "Apple is now a racist word, so that trademark is revoked!" The only one here positing unlimited power on behalf of the Trademark & Patent Office is you.

you're dead wrong. ANY word could be deemed offensive to ANYONE at any given time.

Slippery slope indeed.

God, you're so obtuse.

The law doesn't give the power to the trademark office to reject trademarks that are "offensive" in some vague and undefined way, but instead categories of offensive terminology such as well-known slurs and profanity.
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