Obama vs. McCain - My Research PT. 1

[Knightshade Dragon]

Here is the research that I've done on these two candidates.  Hope you find it interesting, no matter which side you want to support.  For the votes, I just nabbed a few that I found interesting.  I've also tried to cite everything so you can go educate yourself on the issues.  I'm working on part 2 for those interested...


Taxes:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm?cnn=yes

Obama - 90% of Americans would pay less in taxes, lowest income paying least, those over 2.9million paying most.
McCain – Strike that, reverse it.

 
(numbers in parenthesis represent tax amounts going down)
 

                                    McCain                      Obama

Income                        Avg. tax bill                Avg. tax bill

Over $2.9M                 ($269,364)                   $701,885

$603K and up             ($45,361)                     $115,974

$227K-$603K             ($7,871)                       $12

$161K-$227K             ($4,380)                       ($2,789)

$112K-$161K             ($2,614)                       ($2,204)

$66K-$112K               ($1,009)                       ($1,290)

$38K-$66K                 ($319)                          ($1,042)

$19K-$38K                 ($113)                          ($892)

Under $19K                ($19)                            ($567)

Source: The Tax Policy Center                     

 

 

 

Obama Voting record:

   1. Voted to limit farm subsidies  (S Amdt 3695)
   2. Voted against freebie loans to Sugarcane growers in Hawaii (HR 4939)
   3. Voted against increasing the number of detention center beds for illegals in the US (takes 198 million away from the coast guard to do it) (HR 2360)
   4. Voted against allocation of 5 thousand dollars per year to USAID (US Agency for International Development) for 'entertainment' (HR 3057)
   5. Voted to extend education funding to members of the armed forces by 29 billion.  (S Amdt 4803)
   6. Voted to force a timeline to leave Iraq (HR 4156)
   7. Voted to extend tax credits for alternative energy research (S Amdt 1704)
   8. Voted against allowing the estate tax allowance to be raised to 5 million (HR 5970)
   9. Voted against H J Res 47 which would allow the public debt limit to increase to 8.97 trillion (H J Res 47)
  10. Voted to tax windfall crude oil profits, taxes to be fun low-income energy assistance program (HR 3010)
  11. Voted to close 10.8 billion dollar corporate tax loopholes (S Con Res 18) (Education Amendment)
  12. Voted to expand immigration enforcement and increase penalties against employers who hire illegals (SCon Res 70)
  13. Voted to strike telecommunication companies immunity for civil surveillance (168 hour maximum data hold time, can't be used in court – intel gather on foreigners abroad only)  (S 2248)
  14. Voted to use FISA as exclusive means of electronic surveillance (Vote to adopt an amendment that states that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is the exclusive means by which surveillance can be conducted on domestic wire, oral, or electronic communications.) (S 3910)
  15. Voted to prevent illegals convicted of felonies from obtaining legal status (S Amdt 1333)
  16. Voted to auto-expire guest worker cards after 5 years (S Amdt 1316)
  17. Voted to reduce the number of guest visas (S Amdt 1169)
  18. Voted to regulate lobbyist / donations to campaigns of any kind (S1)
  19. Voted for due process (Habeas Corpus) for Gitmo Detainees (S Amdt 2022)
  20. Voted against law preventing the burning of the flag (S J Res 12)
  21. Voted to investigate contract fraud in Iraq (S 1042)
  22. Voted against members of congress getting a raise in 2006 (HR 3058)
  23. Voted to increase technology-based enforcement of the border (UAVs etc.) (HR 6061)
  24. Voted to impose specified amount of time of 'rest' before a soldier can be re-deployed. (S Amdt 2909)
  25. Voted to increase funding for the education of those with disabilities  (HR 3010)
  26. Voted to prohibit the confiscation of firearms during emergencies (HR 5441)
  27. Voted to require that gun owners use a safety lock when transferring ownership of a weapon (S 397)
  28. Voted to inspect 100% of all incoming cargo containers destined for the US (HR 4954)
  29. Voted yes on Stem Cell Research Act of 2007 (and 2006 as well) (S5 and HR 810)
  30. Voted no on prohibiting individual states from recognizing marital status / legal benefits from any other unions other than that of a man and a woman. (Same Sex Ban) (SJ Res. 1)
  31. Voted against removing duties/taxes on goods coming from Dominical Republic/Central America (You know, where our illegal drugs come from?) (HR 3045)
  32. Voted to increase funding to VA Hospitals to account for population growth and inflation (HR 2863)
  33. Voted to increase funding to VA Hospitals to increase counseling, mental health, and rehab of PTSD or substance abuse (S 2020)

 

 

McCain Voting Record:

   1. Limit farm subsidies  (S Amdt 3695) (No Vote)
   2. Voted for and sponsored freebie loans to Sugarcane growers in Hawaii (HR 4939)
   3. Voted for and sponsored increasing the number of detention center beds for illegals in the US (takes 198 million away from the coast guard to do it) (HR 2360)
   4. Voted for allocation of 5 thousand dollars per year to USAID (US Agency for International Development) for 'entertainment' (HR 3057)
   5. Vote to extend education funding to members of the armed forces by 29 billion.  (S Amdt 4803) (No Vote)
   6. Voted to force a timeline to leave Iraq (HR 4156)  (No Vote)
   7. Voted to extend tax credits for alternative energy research (S Amdt 1704) (No Vote)
   8. Voted for allowing the estate tax allowance to be raised to 5 million (HR 5970)
   9. Voted for H J Res 47 which would allow the public debt limit to increase to 8.97 trillion (H J Res 47)
  10. Voted against tax windfall crude oil profits, taxes to be fun low-income energy assistance program (HR 3010)
  11. Voted against closing 10.8 billion dollar corporate tax loopholes (S Con Res 18)  (Education Amendment)
  12. Vote to expand immigration enforcement and increase penalties against employers who hire illegals (SCon Res 70) (No Vote)
  13. Voted to strike telecommunication companies immunity for civil surveillance (168 hour maximum data hold time, can't be used in court – intel gather on foreigners abroad only)  (S 2248)   (Both candidates agree)
  14. Voted against use FISA as exclusive means of electronic surveillance (Vote to adopt an amendment that states that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is the exclusive means by which surveillance can be conducted on domestic wire, oral, or electronic communications.) (S 3910)
  15.  Voted to prevent illegals convicted of felonies from obtaining legal status (S Amdt 1333) (Both candidates agree)
  16. Voted against auto-expire guest worker cards after 5 years (S Amdt 1316)
  17. Vote to reduce the number of guest visas (S Amdt 1169) (No Vote)
  18. Voted against the regulation lobbyist / donations to campaigns of any kind (S1)
  19. Voted against due process (Habeas Corpus) for Gitmo Detainees (S Amdt 2022)
  20. Voted for law preventing the burning of the flag (S J Res 12)
  21. Voted against the investigation of contract fraud in Iraq (S 1042)
  22. Voted for members of congress getting a raise in 2006 (HR 3058)
  23. Voted to increase technology-based enforcement of the border (UAVs etc.) (HR 6061) (Both candidates agree)
  24. Voted against allowing a specified amount of time of 'rest' before a soldier can be re-deployed. (S Amdt 2909)
  25. Voted against increased funding for the education of those with disabilities  (HR 3010)
  26. Voted to prohibit the confiscation of firearms during emergencies (HR 5441) (Both candidates agree)
  27. Voted to require that gun owners use a safety lock when transferring ownership of a weapon (S 397) (Both candidates agree)
  28. Voted against inspecting 100% of all incoming cargo containers destined for the US (HR 4954)
  29. Voted yes on Stem Cell Research Act of 2007 (and 2006 as well) (S5 and HR 810) (Both candidates agree)
  30. Voted no on prohibiting individual states from recognizing marital status / legal benefits from any other unions other than that of a man and a woman. (Same Sex Ban) (SJ Res. 1) (Both candidates agree)
  31. Voted for removing duties/taxes on goods coming from Dominical Republic/Central America (You know, where our illegal drugs come from?) (HR 3045)
  32. Voted against increased funding to VA Hospitals to account for population growth and inflation (HR 2863)
  33. Voted against increased funding to VA Hospitals to increase counseling, mental health, and rehab of PTSD or substance abuse (S 2020)

 

 

General Fun:

McCain's Domestic Issues - http://rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_temper_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html

Inflammatory Terrorist Fist Jab comment by ED Hill on Fox News - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_vmQrTi3aM&feature=related

Hill Apologizes For "Terrorist" Tease
(She says it wasn't the way she characterized the bump, but rather how it "had been characterized by the media".  Looking through googlenews, I couldn't find any references prior to June 7th (and those were articles about Fox))


Michelle Obama uses the word "Whitey": http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/notape

The Truth About Obama: http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/fightthesmearshome/
(this site debunks about 99% of the bullshit that people have against Obama)

[Ralph-Wiggum]

                                    McCain                      Obama

Income                        Avg. tax bill                Avg. tax bill

Over $2.9M                 ($269,364)                   $701,885

$603K and up             ($45,361)                     $115,974

$227K-$603K             ($7,871)                       $12

Obama is apparently going hard for the $227K - $603K crowd. 

[McBa1n]

Damn fine work. I didn't realize Obama's voting record in regards to illegal immigrants... Definitly a present surprise. Strong work, KD.

[cheeba]

Don't have much time, but the problem I see with that research is you are really constricting McCain's voting record to match it with Obama's. If you compared their true voting records you'd see Obama's go on for about half a page or so while McCain's would be a dozen pages.

[Knightshade Dragon]

Don't have much time, but the problem I see with that research is you are really constricting McCain's voting record to match it with Obama's. If you compared their true voting records you'd see Obama's go on for about half a page or so while McCain's would be a dozen pages.

Sure, make me tip my hand on part two.

McCain has missed the most votes of any Senator:
McCain has missed 367 votes during the 110th Congress, 61.4 percent of those held.
Obama comes in 3rd place of most missed votes:
Barack Obama, who has missed 259 votes -- 43.3 percent.
(Hillary is 4th for frame of reference)
Source: The Washington Post (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/vote-missers/)
Obviously some of this is due to campaigning, but not that much.

I picked the things that matter to me and matched them up.  That only makes sense - apples to apples comparison.  Obama is a Jr. Senator.  McCain is a fossil who probably didn't show up for the vote on the flood.  The number speak for themselves though.  Sounds like Obama is there to do his job more than "I don't work the weekends" McCain.  I think by virtue of the fact that I listed out both candidates voting records on those topics and listed the bill involved makes it their 'true voting record' on the subjects that mattered to me.

[cheeba]

McCain is a fossil who probably didn't show up for the vote on the flood.  The number speak for themselves though.  Sounds like Obama is there to do his job more than "I don't work the weekends" McCain.

Not that you're throwing in any bias to your research or anything .

[Teggy]

Don't call me Dad, son.

[Knightshade Dragon]

Don't call me Dad, son.

heh, original target of message perhaps?

As for my bias, I think I've been pretty open about supporting Obama over McCain

[Teggy]

Now, I don't like McCain's tax plan because I am against deficit spending which is likely where he is headed. However, I must say that under Obama's plan, as it is written there, some rich folk are getting the screws put to them. I guess it is some kind of average, but as the numbers are there, a person making $3 million loses another 25% of their income.  I'd be curious to know what the actual effect on a person making that much is - maybe it is not nearly that bad.

Note: I fall into a tax bracket that would benefit from Obama's plan - I just don't subscribe to the whole "screw the rich" philosophy.  If they are getting unfair tax breaks in relation to the rest of the country, I am all for remedying that, but the numbers in the chart look a little unfair.

EDIT: Just caught this part - doesn't make me real happy about either plan now.

Under both plans, all American taxpayers could pay a price for their tax cuts: a bigger deficit. The Tax Policy Center estimates that over 10 years, McCain's tax proposals could increase the national debt by as much as $4.5 trillion with interest, while Obama's could add as much as $3.3 trillion.

The reason: neither plan would raise the amount of revenue expected under current tax policy - which assumes all the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts expire by 2011. And neither plan would raise enough to cover expected government costs during those 10 years.

"Distributionally, they're markedly different. But in terms of their impact on revenue, the two plans are not terribly different," said Roberton Williams, principal research associate at the Tax Policy Center and the former deputy assistant director for tax analysis at the Congressional Budget Office.

[pr0ner]

The simple solution to all that would be to *gasp* CUT SPENDING, but there's no chance in hell of that happening.  With either president.

And I shudder to think about the increases in spending if Obama becomes president and tries to institute socalized medicine.

[Knightshade Dragon]

And I shudder to think about the increases in spending if Obama becomes president and tries to institute socalized medicine.

I shudder to think about the increases in spending if McCain becomes president and declares war in Iran. 

I think socialized medicine will be ultra-cheap by comparison to three wars in three countries. 

[McBa1n]

I dunno, I kind of like my neighbors, friends and countrymen(persons? heh) fighting pointless wars - getting injured for life, killed, tortured by mental issues if/when they get home or leaving their families to serve a purpose that does nothing for the people of the US.

Health Insurance? F that, I've had it for 2-3 years in my adult life - it's totally over-rated. When I was having major issues and paid out of pocket, I really enjoyed that. I was totally hoping to lose my savings(including future) to save my life. I would rather corporate america pay average americans substandard wages and cut their benefits. Universal Healthcare, what a joke. It's socialized medicine, that's what commies have. I'd rather be dead than Red.

*puts gun to head*
I can't see where McCain can beat Obama on economic issues outside of helping people that already have tremendous wealth and ability to generate even more.

[Toe]

With all the crap they add to bills these days it is hard for me to really put much weight in how they vote. There could be a pork clause in a bill that would cause a person to vote against it even though they were for the main point of the proposed legislation.

[warning]

Obama Voting record:

  32. Voted to increase funding to VA Hospitals to account for population growth and inflation (HR 2863)
  33. Voted to increase funding to VA Hospitals to increase counseling, mental health, and rehab of PTSD or substance abuse (S 2020)

McCain Voting Record: 

  32. Voted against increased funding to VA Hospitals to account for population growth and inflation (HR 2863)
  33. Voted against increased funding to VA Hospitals to increase counseling, mental health, and rehab of PTSD or substance abuse (S 2020)

Good to know that the veteran and war hero is taking care of his fellow vets.  *sigh*

And as someone who has worked in the healthcare field for the past 20 years I can't wait until we finally have socialized medicine.  It really saddens me to see people who need but can't afford health care and insurance every single day.

[Zarkon]

Just a side note.

Most of those rich who are looking at possible tax increases?

Yeah, they've have significant tax breaks to begin with.  Why do you think so many rich people donate to charity?  It's all a tax break.  Start a business and have it fail?  Tax writeoff. 

And I'm not even a tax lawyer.  I'm sure one of those could really explain some of the breaks that are available to everyone, but that only the wealthy can truly take advantage of.

[Trappin]

It makes no difference.. for-profit or socialized medicine - The lawyers, pharma/insurance companies, medical equipment/sundry wholesalers and unionized health care workers get the benefits while self employed people like myself get the shaft.

Will wholesale prices be standardized and regulated?

Who awards the contracts?

How do we handle the price of patented drugs?

What about cheap unregulated Chinese generic pharmaceuticals ?

What about no fault medical malpractice?

Will health care workers be tenured for life via union contracts?






 

[Booner]

With all the crap they add to bills these days it is hard for me to really put much weight in how they vote. There could be a pork clause in a bill that would cause a person to vote against it even though they were for the main point of the proposed legislation.

Aye, thinking of that got me to doing a little poking around.

Lets take a look at the 'VA hospital funding' (HR 2863). If you look at that bill, here, it's a defense appropriations bill that in which McCain voted against an amendment that formulated the way the VA would formulate future increases, here....there were no increases in funding in this amendment, just the way it would be formulated.

So, to say that either of these men voted for or against funding is wrong.

Look at the mental care issue, it's an amendment attached to s2020..here. s2020 is a tax relief bill for the areas hit by the Hurricanes in 2005, but go look at the text at what else is included in the amendment submitted by Sen Boxer(SA 2634)... phasing out itemized tax deductions on those earning more than 1m/yr. Hell, just read over what else was submitted to any bills....it's absolutely maddening.

So ask yourself....do you really think either of these mens votes were about the veterans, in either of these cases? As Toe said, using bills to figure out how anyone on capitol hill stands on anything is damn near impossible.

Do more research KD, you're not looking deep enough! 

[Canuck]

Bloody hell, making 600k and only paying 12 bucks in taxes!?  That is ludicrous!

[Electronic Dan]

Bloody hell, making 600k and only paying 12 bucks in taxes!?  That is ludicrous!

It's the amount their tax bill is changing, not their total tax bill.

[DarkEL]

And as someone who has worked in the healthcare field for the past 20 years I can't wait until we finally have socialized medicine.  It really saddens me to see people who need but can't afford health care and insurance every single day.

What's shocking me recently is how I've recently discovered how wrong I've been about the whole healthcare crisis.

For the longest time, I was thinking that the issue was that some people just couldn't afford health insurance. But recently I've discovered that several people I know professionally and who make good money don't have health insurance simply due to the fact that insurance companies won't insure them.

I went out to dinner with another programmer in the area a few weeks back ago and he was telling me how stressed he is now that he found out his wife is pregnant because they don't have insurance and have been denied it due to the fact that he's a bit overweight and has asthma and she's diabetic.

[Geezer]

Just a side note.

Most of those rich who are looking at possible tax increases?

Yeah, they've have significant tax breaks to begin with.  Why do you think so many rich people donate to charity?  It's all a tax break.  Start a business and have it fail?  Tax writeoff. 

And I'm not even a tax lawyer.  I'm sure one of those could really explain some of the breaks that are available to everyone, but that only the wealthy can truly take advantage of.

They have tax breaks because the *give away or lose* the money.  Let's say that a rich guy makes one million dollars.

The rich guy makes a $500k charitable contribution.  Then he loses 400K in a bad business startup.  He's left with a taxable 100K. (And incidentally - that 400K he lost? It went to employees, who paid income tax, or vendors, who pay tax or have employees who pay tax.)

Now lets say another guy makes 100K and doesn't give any to charity and doesn't start a business.  He also has 100K in taxable income.

Do you REALLY think the rich guy is somehow "cheating the system?"  It's not like he got to keep the money he gave away. 

Serioulsy -- when people talk about all the "tax breaks" the rich get, I honestly wonder if they understand what a "tax deduction" is and why people get them.

[msduncan]

Just a side note.

Most of those rich who are looking at possible tax increases?

Yeah, they've have significant tax breaks to begin with.  Why do you think so many rich people donate to charity?  It's all a tax break.  Start a business and have it fail?  Tax writeoff. 

And I'm not even a tax lawyer.  I'm sure one of those could really explain some of the breaks that are available to everyone, but that only the wealthy can truly take advantage of.

They have tax breaks because the *give away or lose* the money.  Let's say that a rich guy makes one million dollars.

The rich guy makes a $500k charitable contribution.  Then he loses 400K in a bad business startup.  He's left with a taxable 100K. (And incidentally - that 400K he lost? It went to employees, who paid income tax, or vendors, who pay tax or have employees who pay tax.)

No lets say another guy makes 100K and doesn't give any to charity and doesn't start a business.  He also has 100K in taxable income.

Do you REALLY think the rich guy is somehow "cheating the system?"  It's not like he got to keep the money he gave away. 

Serioulsy -- when people talk about all the "tax breaks" the rich get, I honestly wonder if they understand what a "tax deduction" is and why people get them.

Thank you geezer.   It's class warfare, plain and simple.    It's really easy to scare people with 'tax breaks for the rich' or 'rich guy cheating the system'.   It's much more difficult to get people to realize how it really works.

[Ironrod]

Willie Sutton robbed banks because "That's where the money is."

[Autistic Angel]

When a company lays off a couple hundred workers as a "cost-saving measure" while awarding the top echelon million-dollar bonuses, it's called "capitalism."

When somebody complains about it, it's called "class warfare."

-Autistic Angel

[Brendan]

Geezer's scenario is a strawman one anyway - people making 100k a year are getting a tax cut under Obama, not a tax increase.  People making $603,000 a year are paying $12 more.  That's pretty seriously devaluing the term "class warfare".  Save it for the French or Russian Revolutions.

PS - if people making a million dollars a year are inclined to donate 50% of their gross annual income to charity, that's great and deserves a tax break.  No one arguing in favor of a progressive taxation system thinks that's "cheating".

[Geezer]

Geezer's scenario is a strawman one anyway - people making 100k a year are getting a tax cut under Obama, not a tax increase.  People making $603,000 a year are paying $12 more.  That's pretty seriously devaluing the term "class warfare".  Save it for the French or Russian Revolutions.

PS - if people making a million dollars a year are inclined to donate 50% of their gross annual income to charity, that's great and deserves a tax break.  No one arguing in favor of a progressive taxation system thinks that's "cheating".

No one thinks it's cheating once it's explained.. but unfortunately all many people hear is that Rich Guy X made TEN BILLION DOLLARS and only paid a 22% marginal tax rate!  Golly - that's less than you and me - they must be using those special rich guy accounting tricks that only rich guys can use to keep all their money!    It is, of course, never stressed that even at that 22% tax rate the poor guy still handed over 2.2 BILLION dollars to the government waste bin.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing for or against tax breaks -  I was simply trying to illustrate the fact that charitable donations and business write-downs aren't some sort of magical "rich guy" break that lets them keep money they're not entitled to - because they don't actually keep it under most of the "nasty rich guy not paying their fair share" scenarios.

I just used 100K and 1m as nice round numbers for illustrative purposes.

I should have also mentioned that anyone that wants to can write off gambling losses (assuming they have them).

[gellar]

I dunno Geezer - I donate $50k a year to Teh GellarFUNd and my accountant seems to be A-OK with it.

gellar

[Austin]

I went out to dinner with another programmer in the area a few weeks back ago and he was telling me how stressed he is now that he found out his wife is pregnant because they don't have insurance and have been denied it due to the fact that he's a bit overweight and has asthma and she's diabetic.

I wonder if he can get high deductible insurance.  I can't recall the number but I think it's $5000/year that you can put into a Health Savings account, tax free.  You can use that money on health care, tax free, and it's your money.  You carry the High Deductible Insurance (~2500 deductible) in case you run into something really bad, like cancer or a problem pregnancy.  Otherwise you pay for stuff out of your HSA.  That money is yours and passes down with your estate.  Were I self-employed, I'd probably head in that direction.  (But again, I don't know if they're a shoe-in for a high deductible insurance policy)

[brettmcd]

Well its nice to see that both sides can put up totally misleading and useless lists of 'facts' about the other candidate and how horrible he is.   Because of how washington works and the crap thats put into bills that have nothing to do with the original bill we have no idea what was actually being voted for or against.   But a nice bit of misinformation at least.

[Geezer]

I dunno Geezer - I donate $50k a year to Teh GellarFUNd and my accountant seems to be A-OK with it.

gellar

That's because you can afford one of those fancypants richguy accountants and because you qualify for the special richguy laws.  Or because you created "Gellar Cheats With AWD Subie Performance Co." and can write stupid shit off. 

[LordMortis]

1)  I'm more curious about their spend proposals than am their tax proposals.  Sadly, more taxes is what we need as we continue to sell more and more debt overseas.

2)  I don't know what they say about tax breaks but I don't think tax breaks are broken for the wealthy.  I think they are just flat out broken.  The wealthy can take advantage of them more easily because they are spending more money that they can make business cases for.  Joe in the factory isn't inclined to get a consultant and write off all of his clothes as work clothes and even if he did, he's buying twenty dollar jeans when he gets them.  He's not able to make buisness case to make write off his Tahoe.  (Which theoretically gets revamped this year...  The year that people finally wake up and realize that communing in SUVs is not so smart)  He doesn't do business lunches.  He doesn't understand depreciating his work benches as assests.  Joe factory worker doesn't do shit until he becomes a contractor and sees that he's paying an outrageous tax bill himself and seeing a much more outrageous tax bill than he did when was working for someone else.  Then all of a sudden hiring a consultant becomes necessary and he joins the ranks of people who take advantage of broken system and behaves like he is wealthy.  Then he is writing off those twenty dollar jeans and his truck and every mile he drives it and lunch while he's at work and...  He instantly goes from a liability that was way worse than when he was an employee to using every tool he can to make his liability much less than when he was an employee and he doesn't have to be "rich" to do it.