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Author Topic: Obama seeking 1/2 Billion for Syrian Opposition  (Read 1612 times)
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Rip
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« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2014, 04:37:38 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 11, 2014, 04:23:45 PM

Don't you mean "THANKS OBAMA!".

p.s. It helps when you provide evidence to support your denial of that claim.   slywink

and here I was thinking the burden of proof should be on the person making a claim.
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« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2014, 04:42:23 PM »

Ah, good ol' Rip.  He hates to read the entirety of someone's posts before trying to belittle them.
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« Reply #82 on: August 11, 2014, 05:31:15 PM »

I think Moliere's semi-serious point is that the dems have been blaming everything on Bush from the beginning and are still doing so.

Now obviously, he got us into this mess in Iraq by lying his ass off, but Obama has not necessarily been stalwart or focused or consistent in how he deals with foreign policy flares ups  in the middle east anywhere.


AA unnecessarily long and citation heavy post in 3, 2, 1...
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« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2014, 05:49:02 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 11, 2014, 05:31:15 PM

AA unnecessarily long and citation heavy post in 3, 2, 1...

It's bad form to start a political discussion then get upset when someone provides a well documented counter argument.  

As for the belief that the dems are blaming everything on Bush, the dems said the GOP was doing the same thing after Clinton left office and Bush moved in.  It's an old and tired piece of rhetoric meant to trivialize any argument that you can't successfully disprove.
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« Reply #84 on: August 11, 2014, 06:00:00 PM »

What does it say when Laura Ingraham blames our initial intervention for their current sorry state of affairs?

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Ingraham added that she was “not saying” she wanted to see U.S. forces return to Iraq: “I don’t know if there’s a good solution right now, which is a horrible thing to say for the United States of America.”

Later in the segment, Ingraham pointed out that al Qaeda — through its ISIS offshoot group — was “becoming the Islamic state.”

“We tried to do all these things in Iraq, now Iraq is worse off!” she exclaimed. “I mean, I hate to say that, but Iraq is worse than before we went in to Iraq. Christians are gone, there’s no sense of order at all.”

“Saddam Hussein is gone. That’s a good thing, but what’s left? A more embolden Islamic state.”
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« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2014, 06:14:00 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on August 11, 2014, 06:00:00 PM

What does it say when Laura Ingraham blames our initial intervention for their current sorry state of affairs?

Quote
Ingraham added that she was “not saying” she wanted to see U.S. forces return to Iraq: “I don’t know if there’s a good solution right now, which is a horrible thing to say for the United States of America.”

Later in the segment, Ingraham pointed out that al Qaeda — through its ISIS offshoot group — was “becoming the Islamic state.”

“We tried to do all these things in Iraq, now Iraq is worse off!” she exclaimed. “I mean, I hate to say that, but Iraq is worse than before we went in to Iraq. Christians are gone, there’s no sense of order at all.”

“Saddam Hussein is gone. That’s a good thing, but what’s left? A more embolden Islamic state.”

Probably not much different than when Hillary blames it on Uncle Barry.

http://news.yahoo.com/clinton-blames-islamic-militants-rise-obama-policies-195239199.html;_ylt=AwrSyCNN8edTnRMAGVDQtDMD
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« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2014, 06:21:16 PM »

Why is she blaming the buildup of Islamic militants on a bar in Brooklyn?
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« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2014, 08:28:01 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 11, 2014, 04:23:45 PM

Don't you mean "THANKS OBAMA!".

p.s. It helps when you provide evidence to support your denial of that claim.   slywink
Hillary isn't exactly thanking Obama as she gears up for the election. Everything I've read has her distancing herself from him.

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Professional Clinton-watchers (and there are battalions of them) have told me that it is only a matter of time before she makes a more forceful attempt to highlight her differences with the (unpopular) president she ran against, and then went on to serve. On a number of occasions during my interview with her, I got the sense that this effort is already underway. (And for what it's worth, I also think she may have told me that she’s running for president—see below for her not-entirely-ambiguous nod in that direction.)

The history of blame for Iraq can start with the Sykes–Picot Agreement. Then we can blame various governments, political parties, and agencies for the next 50 years. Starting in the 80s we can blame Reagan and the Democratic Congress for funding the Taliban against the Russians and funding Saddam as a buffer against Iran. The fallout of that mess then got passed on from President to President, like a mideast baton relay.
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« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2014, 01:02:22 PM »

But we're discussing the current situation in Iraq, not the broader topic of violence and unrest in the Middle East.  In particular, the breakdown of Iraq due to sectarian violence and their inability to work together in any meaningful capacity.  That, I truly believe, can be laid at the feet of Bush Jr..  Even his father knew not to play kingmaker and backed off before doing so.
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« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2014, 02:39:34 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 12, 2014, 01:02:22 PM

But we're discussing the current situation in Iraq, not the broader topic of violence and unrest in the Middle East.  In particular, the breakdown of Iraq due to sectarian violence and their inability to work together in any meaningful capacity.  That, I truly believe, can be laid at the feet of Bush Jr..  Even his father knew not to play kingmaker and backed off before doing so.
You asked for evidence of someone other than Bush Jr to blame for the sectarian violence and I provided you a link to a treaty between Britain and France after WWI that divided the area up by spheres of influence rather than ethnic and religious considerations. The U.S. has been making kings all over the world for the last hundred years. Read "Legacy of Ashes" by Tim Weiner or "The Trial of Henry Kissinger" by Christopher Hitchens for a depressing list of examples.
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« Reply #90 on: August 12, 2014, 04:44:18 PM »

Ah semantics, I do so love you.

I think you know exactly what I meant.  The discussion is about the current crisis in Iraq, not the long standing existence of sectarian violence in the middle east.  Before Bush Jr. took Saddam down, the region was relatively stable.  Granted, it was through violence on his part, but you can't take down a tyrant who controls a large group of people who have shown they can't live together without a greater force to keep them in check without having a decent plan to address that.  He played kingmaker (again, I'm fully aware that word existed before Bush Jr..  That doesn't mean its validity is immediately negated due to that) without listening to anyone but a bunch of hawks who had no plan for what to do after they toppled the current regime.  
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 04:54:36 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: August 12, 2014, 05:09:40 PM »

They didn't even really have a plan for the war other than to race for baghdad.  If they had consolidated as they went it would have made things more secure, but probably more bloody and protracted for the original invasion.

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« Reply #92 on: August 12, 2014, 05:24:49 PM »

I don't even see Bush Jr. as the chief architect of the failed campaign.  I primarily blame Cheney, Rumsfeld and his deputy Wolfowitz.  They were the ones whispering in Bush's ear that the people would welcome the United States with open arms and that the revenue from oil and other Iraqi commodities would pay for the clean up following Saddam's removal.  

Do I believe we've made mistakes under Obama?  Of course I do.  But by that point, mistakes on his part were like deck chairs being tossed off the Titanic. 
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 05:26:47 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #93 on: August 12, 2014, 05:50:59 PM »

I'm about 100 pages into Cobra II, and at one point, they were counting on leveraging the existing Iraqi armed forces and police to keep the peace so that we could send fewer troops.  Talk about a pipe dream.  They wanted to fight a war of their own choosing, keep the troop footprint as low as possible to tamp down discontent at home, and make an example out of the regime, convinced on faulty intelligence that there were still WMDs.
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« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2014, 10:29:16 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 12, 2014, 01:02:22 PM

But we're discussing the current situation in Iraq, not the broader topic of violence and unrest in the Middle East.  In particular, the breakdown of Iraq due to sectarian violence and their inability to work together in any meaningful capacity.  That, I truly believe, can be laid at the feet of Bush Jr..  Even his father knew not to play kingmaker and backed off before doing so.


Obama's decision to withdraw completely is partly to blame for the current breakdown in order and marginalization of US influence. The administration could have twisted arms harder for a favorable agreement to keep a US presence. I supported full withdrawal and I'm glad that we don't have a trigger force there that would draw us back into another buildup...but I also believe that it's partially to blame for the current deterioration.

There is plenty of blame to go around for everybody. Might as well blame Saddam for being dickish enough to bring the US hammer down, too (although he might well have been deposed during the Arab Spring anyway, leading to the same power vacuum that exists today). 
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