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Author Topic: Obama (already) plays the race card  (Read 7758 times)
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msduncan
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2008, 01:31:53 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 22, 2008, 01:26:08 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 21, 2008, 07:31:46 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 21, 2008, 06:49:50 PM

Are you just angry because the man is right?  We've already seen numerous examples of it (check out http://www.gamingtrend.com/forums/index.php/topic,27532.0.html).  I'm glad he called them out.

Seriously, I don't think I can even relate to your anger on this one. 

I discount what you are saying.   Why?  Because you've twice played the bigot card on me in these forums.
It's ridiculous.

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness. 

My "ilk"?    Roll Eyes
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« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2008, 01:34:27 AM »

Quote from: DarkEL on June 21, 2008, 08:12:01 PM

Quote from: Captain Caveman on June 21, 2008, 07:36:35 PM


Ugh - that video is absolutely horrible. A perfect example of the worst kinds of politics.

I hate to even think of crap like that ever making it onto television.

Is that actually a TV commercial or just a YouTube commercial?  I would hope that something like that never actually makes it onto television.  The problem with YouTube is that anyone can post anything they want.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2008, 01:35:02 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 22, 2008, 01:31:53 AM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 22, 2008, 01:26:08 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 21, 2008, 07:31:46 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 21, 2008, 06:49:50 PM

Are you just angry because the man is right?  We've already seen numerous examples of it (check out http://www.gamingtrend.com/forums/index.php/topic,27532.0.html).  I'm glad he called them out.

Seriously, I don't think I can even relate to your anger on this one. 

I discount what you are saying.   Why?  Because you've twice played the bigot card on me in these forums.
It's ridiculous.

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness. 

My "ilk"?    Roll Eyes

"ilk" - noun
1.   family, class, or kind: he and all his ilk.

My apologies for overestimating your intellect.
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msduncan
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2008, 01:38:09 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 21, 2008, 11:35:31 PM

Earlier this week, I received an e-mail chain letter purporting to "reveal the *real* Obama!!!" with a series of unsourced, context-free quotes which show him to be a bitter, angry, anti-white racist.  I doubt it was authored by a democrat; it certainly wasn't forwarded by one.

When you add in the rumors that Barack Obama is a radical Muslim who hates America because he's secretly sworn allegiance to "black Africa", plus the repeated Fox News slurs, I think it's perfectly fair to call out the Republicans out for their continuing pattern of race-baiting.

Quote from: msduncan
Hey Obama?   F___ you. finger finger finger

I hope you have a more articulate response ready for me than you did for Obama.

-Autistic Angel

Let's examine the videos by link"

"Repeated" -- watched the entire video.   Nothing racial about this at all.   They commented that it was an intimate way of communicating between Michele and Barack.   Her Terrorist Fist Jab comment was repeating titles to bloggers and stories about it that were all on fire those couple days afterwards.

"Fox News"  --  a link to a conglomeration of out of context snippets?   Do you even know what the conversation was when any of these quotes happened?

"slurs" -- use of a Michele Obamaism.   She's the one that quoted it first.
"
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msduncan
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2008, 01:39:24 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 22, 2008, 01:35:02 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 22, 2008, 01:31:53 AM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 22, 2008, 01:26:08 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 21, 2008, 07:31:46 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 21, 2008, 06:49:50 PM

Are you just angry because the man is right?  We've already seen numerous examples of it (check out http://www.gamingtrend.com/forums/index.php/topic,27532.0.html).  I'm glad he called them out.

Seriously, I don't think I can even relate to your anger on this one. 

I discount what you are saying.   Why?  Because you've twice played the bigot card on me in these forums.
It's ridiculous.

It seems you're just angry that your ilk aren't getting a free pass to promote their unique brand of sleaze under cover of darkness. 

My "ilk"?    Roll Eyes

"ilk" - noun
1.   family, class, or kind: he and all his ilk.

My apologies for overestimating your intellect.

And you immediately go personal.   You can't have a conversation without going personal, can you Blackadar?   
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2008, 03:00:22 AM »

Quote from: msduncan
So you are calling out Republicans for undocumented, unclaimed, anonymous internet chain emails?    What if they came from the Clinton camp?   She has the most to gain other than McCain in Obama losing....

I'm calling out Republicans for inventing and spreading specious lies about how the Clintons murdered Vince Foster and how John Kerry's service in Vietnam was marked by cowardice and dishonesty, and for actively engaging in voter suppression and political caging.  There's a pretty specific pattern here, all within the last few election cycles, and it forms a straight line towards the sort of vicious lies that have been spread about Barack Obama.

Quote from: msduncan
Her Terrorist Fist Jab comment was repeating titles to bloggers and stories about it that were all on fire those couple days afterwards.

Her comment was based on a single post by an anonymous commenter responding to someone's political blog.  "Guy Posts Something Stupid On Internet" is not a valid news story, yet Fox News found the prospect of a "Terrorist Fist Jab" ominous enough to tease an upcoming segment with.

Quote from: msduncan
"Fox News"  --  a link to a conglomeration of out of context snippets?   Do you even know what the conversation was when any of these quotes happened?

Okay, here's one with lots of context.

When "Insight Magazine" ran an unsourced, uncorroborated report claiming that Hilary Clinton's campaign was digging up scandalous details about Barack Obama's secret upbringing as a radical Muslim, Fox News ran with it.  Note the glee with which he underscores "Barack Hussein Obama!"  The story was completely false.

Quote from: msduncan
"slurs" -- use of a Michele Obamaism.   She's the one that quoted it first.

I think this is the part where I challenge you to back that up, and you explain how the phrase baby mama, which has a very specific and pejorative connotation, is somehow equivalent to the phrase "my babies' daddy" which does not.

The truth is that you know very well why Fox News is so quick to run nasty chyrons, phony stories, and repeat Barack Obama's middle name again and again.  The question is: why are you pretending there's some legitimate journalistic purpose to it all?

-Autistic Angel
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helot2000
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« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2008, 05:38:56 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 21, 2008, 10:28:11 PM

He's not 'my guy' so I don't have a lot of nice things to say about him.   'My guy' was governor Huckabee, who got my vote in the primaries and won my state.
Your guy had some pretty good tips for Republicans this week.  In his own words...

Quote
What I am saying is that we need to challenge Obama on the basis that his ideas are the wrong ones—not attacking him personally. If people spend their time repeating a bunch of internet driven drivel about his middle name (he didn’t choose his anymore than I chose mine), or his race (I do sincerely celebrate that our country has moved to a place where a person’s race doesn’t limit him from aspiring to the highest office in our land, but I just believe that due to his proposals and lack of substantive experience, he’s gone far enough—not because of his race, but because of his sincere, but misguided proposals), or his church (there are far more important reasons for us to elect Senator McCain than where Obama went to church).

Elections ought to be about elevating the best ideas and exposing the worst ones—not engaging in character assassination with half truths, innuendoes, and disputable “internet facts.”
Testify Huckabee, testify...
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msduncan
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« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2008, 01:12:49 PM »

Quote from: helot2000 on June 22, 2008, 05:38:56 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 21, 2008, 10:28:11 PM

He's not 'my guy' so I don't have a lot of nice things to say about him.   'My guy' was governor Huckabee, who got my vote in the primaries and won my state.
Your guy had some pretty good tips for Republicans this week.  In his own words...

Quote
What I am saying is that we need to challenge Obama on the basis that his ideas are the wrong ones—not attacking him personally. If people spend their time repeating a bunch of internet driven drivel about his middle name (he didn’t choose his anymore than I chose mine), or his race (I do sincerely celebrate that our country has moved to a place where a person’s race doesn’t limit him from aspiring to the highest office in our land, but I just believe that due to his proposals and lack of substantive experience, he’s gone far enough—not because of his race, but because of his sincere, but misguided proposals), or his church (there are far more important reasons for us to elect Senator McCain than where Obama went to church).

Elections ought to be about elevating the best ideas and exposing the worst ones—not engaging in character assassination with half truths, innuendoes, and disputable “internet facts.”
Testify Huckabee, testify...

My absolute favorite for President, Newt Gingrich, has been saying the same thing for months.     I'm not disputing the fact that we need to have a plan and run on it as Newt (and Huckabee) say.   I'm disputing the idea counter to my original post that Republicans are running on race.   They aren't.   They are running on a weak message from a weak candidate.   

If you guys are going to lump every loony's comments out there as 'the republicans', then it is fair game for me to talk about how the Democrats want to nationalize oil refineries and socialize America, among many other things the extreme left fringe is saying.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 01:57:47 PM by msduncan » Logged
Autistic Angel
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« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2008, 01:30:50 PM »

Quote from: msduncan
If you guys are going to lump every loony's comments out there as 'the republicans', then it is fair game for me to talk about how the Democrats want to nationalize oil refineries and socialize America, among many other things the extreme left fringe is saying.

As I said to brettmcd, if you want to denounce all those Fox News clips as the work of jabbering lunatics, you won't get much of a fight from me.  Just don't forget that less than two weeks ago you also championed it as "a conservative channel."

-Autistic Angel
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msduncan
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« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2008, 01:59:05 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 22, 2008, 01:30:50 PM

Quote from: msduncan
If you guys are going to lump every loony's comments out there as 'the republicans', then it is fair game for me to talk about how the Democrats want to nationalize oil refineries and socialize America, among many other things the extreme left fringe is saying.

As I said to brettmcd, if you want to denounce all those Fox News clips as the work of jabbering lunatics, you won't get much of a fight from me.  Just don't forget that less than two weeks ago you also championed it as "a conservative channel."

-Autistic Angel

Well like I said again -- many of those quotes were taken out of context.    The few that weren't probably equal out to the same left-slanted jabbering from the CNN's and MSNBC's out there.
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« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2008, 02:11:03 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 22, 2008, 01:39:24 AM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 22, 2008, 01:35:02 AM

My apologies for overestimating your intellect.

And you immediately go personal.   You can't have a conversation without going personal, can you Blackadar?   

Yep, this is the same guy who starts off the thread with Hey Obama?   F___ you.    finger  finger  finger, tells me to "go to hell" and then complains about me going personal.   icon_lol
Whatever...but in the interest of not having another Blackadar vs. msduncan thread locked, let's turn back to the issue.

Seriously, I'm not sure what your complaint is here.  That Hillary did it, so it's ok for Republicans to do it?  That it's not happening and that each of these incidents were accidents or done by the fringe Right?  That all of this is "taken out of context"?  You expect us to believe that after the swift-boat crap of 2004, that Dems are just going to stand by and let it happen again?  It's a pattern of deceit and lies that we've seen time and time before in elections by some of the Republican Right.  Damn straight for Obama taking this head-on and I'm somewhat surprised that McCain doesn't address it himself.  After all, he was attacked with the same shit in SC in 2000 - "McCain's illegal black baby" caused him to lose the state and ultimately, the nomination.  That he doesn't condemn it is just another sign that the man has sold his soul.  

As I said in another thread, "I'm cynical as hell about it, but I think it's because some conservatives know that they don't stand a chance of winning this election on the issues, so they're trying to stir racial differences in order to create "white flight" at the polling booth.  Since Obama seems to be teflon when it comes to race (since he's a mix), what better way than to portray his wife as an unpatriotic, white-hating, angry black bitch?  I hate to be blunt about it, but there's no doubt that there are certain conservative elements that are trying to encourage that perception.  It's the same thing when Faux News talks about a "terrorist fist jab".  It's a thinly-veiled attempt at trying to link Obama to being a Muslim yet again.  It's race-baiting and religion-baiting...and I think they'll keep at it."
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 02:12:39 PM by Blackadar » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2008, 03:23:25 PM »

Quote from: msduncan
Well like I said again -- many of those quotes were taken out of context.

...which is why I posted an example with lots of context.  Just out of curiosity, what is the legitimate policy-based context for repeating "Barack Hussein Obama" over and over again?

Quote
The few that weren't probably equal out to the same left-slanted jabbering from the CNN's and MSNBC's out there.

You started this thread by giving Barack Obama the finger because he warned supporters that Republicans would use fear-mongering racially-charged innuendo to attack his campaign, and when I posted specific examples where the channel *you* described as the "conservative channel" has been doing exactly that, you dismiss it as probably being almost as bad as stuff the other channels might be doing, maybe?

Even if you can back that up -- and I don't think you can -- how would that justify your original "point" of
"Hey Obama?   F___ you.    finger finger finger"?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2008, 04:32:57 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 22, 2008, 02:11:03 PM

You expect us to believe that after the swift-boat crap of 2004, that Dems are just going to stand by and let it happen again?  It's a pattern of deceit and lies that we've seen time and time before in elections by some of the Republican Right.

As an aside, Kerry's still fighting the swift boat liars.  Turns out T. Boone Pickens is full of shit and won't pay up on his million dollar bet that Kerry couldn't disprove the charges.
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« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2008, 07:04:26 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 22, 2008, 03:23:25 PM

Quote from: msduncan
Well like I said again -- many of those quotes were taken out of context.

...which is why I posted an example with lots of context.  Just out of curiosity, what is the legitimate policy-based context for repeating "Barack Hussein Obama" over and over again?

There is nothing new under the sun.

Quote
That evoked a response today from the White House spokesman, Marlin Fitzwater, who was asked at a press briefing in Washington whether Mr. Quayle's comments represented an ethnic slur.

"No, that's his name," Mr. Fitzwater said. "Mario, Mario, Mario, Mario, Mario, Mario. He better get used to it."
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« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2008, 12:23:19 AM »

MSD in my opinion, your anger is misplaced about the article - I just don't see what you are talking about.  The fact is that Obama is right.  This country was built on racism and thrives on racism.  You are fooling yourself if you don't think this going to be the ugliest, most racially charged, Presidential Election ever.  It goes without saying that it's going to come from the Republican Base, afterall, they don't want a Deomcrat to win they want a Republican to win. 

This is going to be so ugly to see.  Hope this country is ready for it and I sure hope that it doesn't destroy our country. 
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« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2008, 12:50:38 AM »

Quote from: deadzone on June 23, 2008, 12:23:19 AM

MSD in my opinion, your anger is misplaced about the article - I just don't see what you are talking about.  The fact is that Obama is right.  This country was built on racism and thrives on racism.  You are fooling yourself if you don't think this going to be the ugliest, most racially charged, Presidential Election ever.  It goes without saying that it's going to come from the Republican Base, afterall, they don't want a Deomcrat to win they want a Republican to win. 

This is going to be so ugly to see.  Hope this country is ready for it and I sure hope that it doesn't destroy our country. 

His democratic opponent and her supporters went down this path, i didnt know they were part of the republican base.  Guess one learns something new every day.
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« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2008, 01:40:08 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 22, 2008, 01:59:05 PM

Well like I said again -- many of those quotes were taken out of context.    The few that weren't probably equal out to the same left-slanted jabbering from the CNN's and MSNBC's out there.

Interestingly enough, I had to go to the UK to get the best sense of the quotes - the NY times article states that the most inflammatory one may not even be accurate.

Ultimately, I feel that those who stand to gain the most from a Republican President will attack Obama in any way possible, and the email and tv ads listed above will continue.  They will not necessarily be officially Republican, but the bottom line is that in this election more so than any other, those who see race first may well do anything to stop him, more than other Republicans, and the fact of the matter is that Obama has to defend against all of these attacks and attack back. 

One of the tools he has to use to defend against these attacks is the fact that some of them are racially motivated.  The Democrats have seen what happens when you ignore slurs from anyone of questionable character in the past, and getting the Republicans to police their more "out-there" supporters helps Obama.
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« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2008, 03:18:29 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on June 23, 2008, 12:50:38 AM

Quote from: deadzone on June 23, 2008, 12:23:19 AM

MSD in my opinion, your anger is misplaced about the article - I just don't see what you are talking about.  The fact is that Obama is right.  This country was built on racism and thrives on racism.  You are fooling yourself if you don't think this going to be the ugliest, most racially charged, Presidential Election ever.  It goes without saying that it's going to come from the Republican Base, afterall, they don't want a Deomcrat to win they want a Republican to win. 

This is going to be so ugly to see.  Hope this country is ready for it and I sure hope that it doesn't destroy our country. 

His democratic opponent and her supporters went down this path, i didnt know they were part of the republican base.  Guess one learns something new every day.

I think what deadzone was saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong dead -- is that politics is dirty and this will get as dirty as it ever has.    And if the shoe was on the other foot and there was a Republican African American candidate -- some Democrats would be pulling out all the stops--including race--to take them down, dirty or not.

Is that what you were saying deadzone?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 03:22:05 AM by msduncan » Logged
msduncan
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« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2008, 03:21:37 AM »

Quote from: Pyperkub on June 23, 2008, 01:40:08 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 22, 2008, 01:59:05 PM

Well like I said again -- many of those quotes were taken out of context.    The few that weren't probably equal out to the same left-slanted jabbering from the CNN's and MSNBC's out there.

Interestingly enough, I had to go to the UK to get the best sense of the quotes - the NY times article states that the most inflammatory one may not even be accurate.

Ultimately, I feel that those who stand to gain the most from a Republican President will attack Obama in any way possible, and the email and tv ads listed above will continue.  They will not necessarily be officially Republican, but the bottom line is that in this election more so than any other, those who see race first may well do anything to stop him, more than other Republicans, and the fact of the matter is that Obama has to defend against all of these attacks and attack back. 

One of the tools he has to use to defend against these attacks is the fact that some of them are racially motivated.  The Democrats have seen what happens when you ignore slurs from anyone of questionable character in the past, and getting the Republicans to police their more "out-there" supporters helps Obama.

And my point was that Obama basically lumped all Republicans into the racist bunch by making the statements he did.    He said Republicans (that's me) will use race against me.   *I* am not, and neither is Huckabee or many other Republicans that understand the significance of his nomination.   But he's already labeled us as racist by making statements like that.    And I take offense.
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« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2008, 03:29:28 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 23, 2008, 03:21:37 AM



And my point was that Obama basically lumped all Republicans into the racist bunch by making the statements he did.    He said Republicans (that's me) will use race against me.   *I* am not, and neither is Huckabee or many other Republicans that understand the significance of his nomination.   But he's already labeled us as racist by making statements like that.    And I take offense.

That's a plausible reading.  Generalizations, as common as they are in modern politics, are regrettable.

How do you feel about throwing the first stone regarding generalizations?
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« Reply #60 on: June 23, 2008, 03:45:21 AM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on June 23, 2008, 03:29:28 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 23, 2008, 03:21:37 AM



And my point was that Obama basically lumped all Republicans into the racist bunch by making the statements he did.    He said Republicans (that's me) will use race against me.   *I* am not, and neither is Huckabee or many other Republicans that understand the significance of his nomination.   But he's already labeled us as racist by making statements like that.    And I take offense.

That's a plausible reading.  Generalizations, as common as they are in modern politics, are regrettable.

How do you feel about throwing the first stone regarding generalizations?

I long ago apologized about the generalizations of which you speak, and they were on the other forum besides.   I am also not running for President on a platform that supposedly changes direction from that.   

btw -- I'm still self enforcing a break from OO R&P until the conventions, as I promised.
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« Reply #61 on: June 23, 2008, 06:46:52 AM »

I'm truly amazed that msduncan sees no hint of coded racism in any of the various Fox News clips linked here, no hints in all of the talk about the "Hamas endorsement" or Senator Obama's middle name - none, at least, that he can detect without presumably seeing the "full context" of every quote.  I'd be inclined to think "wow, this guy's just completely tone deaf when it comes to race," except that he's constantly, constantly, trying to make a case that white people are the victims of anti-white racism by black people with his anti-Jeremiah jeremiads.

I think it's also hilarious that he's stomping his feet for an apology and claiming that Senator Obama "lumped all Republicans into the racist bunch", just a couple of days after writing, based on comments by a single member of the house of representatives, that "Democrats want to socialize America and yet scream when people call them socialists."

Every day brings a new delight.
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« Reply #62 on: June 23, 2008, 07:11:28 AM »

The neocon arm of the Republican party built it's core over racism fear mongering (before the democrats owned it prior, especially in the south). It's pretty well documented and runs back to HW Bush's run for Senate back in the 60s. A bunch of 'country club' Republicans were able to turn a tiny party in Texas into a major contender through such tactics, it's the base of the party's votes...

But Obama is correct in what he is saying. Any idiot can figure out any opponent he goes up against will have people working behind the scenes to make him look like a 'terrorist' or play up the fact he's black - and associates with 'black radicals', the scariest people on the planet! Other democrats have used his race and upbringing against him indirectly tons already - I don't know why it's so shocking to hear him saying that. Actually - it's redundant for him to say. Everyone knows that's the best way to beat him - since it's always worked due to our national retardation and hypocracy that we are 'all created equal'. This country has come a long way in terms of race/gender/religion, but it's nowhere near the bullshit we're fed. He's black, his middle name is "Hussein" and I've seen both references enough to make me sick to my stomach. He's a man, just like McCain -- and he's running for President, that's all that SHOULD matter, but for some reason that has nothing to do with what's going on. 'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?
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« Reply #63 on: June 23, 2008, 01:21:14 PM »

Quote from: McBa1n on June 23, 2008, 07:11:28 AM

The neocon arm of the Republican party built it's core over racism fear mongering (before the democrats owned it prior, especially in the south). It's pretty well documented and runs back to HW Bush's run for Senate back in the 60s. A bunch of 'country club' Republicans were able to turn a tiny party in Texas into a major contender through such tactics, it's the base of the party's votes...

But Obama is correct in what he is saying. Any idiot can figure out any opponent he goes up against will have people working behind the scenes to make him look like a 'terrorist' or play up the fact he's black - and associates with 'black radicals', the scariest people on the planet! Other democrats have used his race and upbringing against him indirectly tons already - I don't know why it's so shocking to hear him saying that. Actually - it's redundant for him to say. Everyone knows that's the best way to beat him - since it's always worked due to our national retardation and hypocracy that we are 'all created equal'. This country has come a long way in terms of race/gender/religion, but it's nowhere near the bullshit we're fed. He's black, his middle name is "Hussein" and I've seen both references enough to make me sick to my stomach. He's a man, just like McCain -- and he's running for President, that's all that SHOULD matter, but for some reason that has nothing to do with what's going on. 'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?

No they don't.    All of the new organizations make their living from filling time on cable stations that run continuously 24 hours a day.   The networks, on the flip side, constantly try to steal attention and ratings from the cable stations in the shorter time they have airtime to talk.  This is asking for dumb things to be said, and dumb ideas to be covered.
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« Reply #64 on: June 23, 2008, 01:33:29 PM »

I think, from a strategic point of view, that Obama plays the race card now. It's not being used to directly counter anything (it would have been worth less/may have even backfired when dealing with his pastor's extreme viewpoints). This lays the card on the table on relatively calm waters so that it defuses it before it becomes important.

Some people are racist, some people are not. Some are democrats, some are not. Republicans are his opponent; he's going to target that. A Venn diagram would clear this whole thread up.
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« Reply #65 on: June 23, 2008, 02:01:09 PM »

Quote from: McBa1n on June 23, 2008, 07:11:28 AM

'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?

Using the Social Security Administration's own life expectancy table, McCain has a 15.2% chance of dying in his first term and a 37.25% chance of dying within two terms.  This, of course, does not take into account McCain's own medical history (both good and bad), nor the effects of the stress caused by the job, nor the effects of the ravages of time on the mind.  Using the same table, Obama has a 1.85% chance of dying while in his first term.

While age certainly won't decide my vote, 15% is statistically important enough to be a factor worth discussing.


EDIT: Interestingly enough, the AP has a piece on the racial issue today.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/23/obama.ads.ap/index.html
« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 02:21:37 PM by Blackadar » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: June 23, 2008, 02:22:43 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on June 23, 2008, 12:50:38 AM

Quote from: deadzone on June 23, 2008, 12:23:19 AM

MSD in my opinion, your anger is misplaced about the article - I just don't see what you are talking about.  The fact is that Obama is right.  This country was built on racism and thrives on racism.  You are fooling yourself if you don't think this going to be the ugliest, most racially charged, Presidential Election ever.  It goes without saying that it's going to come from the Republican Base, afterall, they don't want a Deomcrat to win they want a Republican to win. 

This is going to be so ugly to see.  Hope this country is ready for it and I sure hope that it doesn't destroy our country. 

His democratic opponent and her supporters went down this path, i didnt know they were part of the republican base.  Guess one learns something new every day.

My main point being that opponents to Obama are going to use Racism in some way or another to try and beat him.  Are you implying that Racism is not an issue at all?  Racism is still Racism regardless of how misguided or from what side it comes from. 
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« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2008, 02:25:13 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 23, 2008, 03:18:29 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on June 23, 2008, 12:50:38 AM

Quote from: deadzone on June 23, 2008, 12:23:19 AM

MSD in my opinion, your anger is misplaced about the article - I just don't see what you are talking about.  The fact is that Obama is right.  This country was built on racism and thrives on racism.  You are fooling yourself if you don't think this going to be the ugliest, most racially charged, Presidential Election ever.  It goes without saying that it's going to come from the Republican Base, afterall, they don't want a Deomcrat to win they want a Republican to win. 

This is going to be so ugly to see.  Hope this country is ready for it and I sure hope that it doesn't destroy our country. 

His democratic opponent and her supporters went down this path, i didnt know they were part of the republican base.  Guess one learns something new every day.

I think what deadzone was saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong dead -- is that politics is dirty and this will get as dirty as it ever has.    And if the shoe was on the other foot and there was a Republican African American candidate -- some Democrats would be pulling out all the stops--including race--to take them down, dirty or not.

Is that what you were saying deadzone?

EXACTLY MSD!!  smile  My posting history will show that I can rarely make a point clearly - I just sort of suck at it. 
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« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2008, 03:31:31 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 23, 2008, 02:01:09 PM

Quote from: McBa1n on June 23, 2008, 07:11:28 AM

'McCain is old'. blah - same crap. Why does it matter? Do news shows have nothing else to talk about?

Using the Social Security Administration's own life expectancy table, McCain has a 15.2% chance of dying in his first term and a 37.25% chance of dying within two terms.  This, of course, does not take into account McCain's own medical history (both good and bad), nor the effects of the stress caused by the job, nor the effects of the ravages of time on the mind.  Using the same table, Obama has a 1.85% chance of dying while in his first term.

While age certainly won't decide my vote, 15% is statistically important enough to be a factor worth discussing.


If possibilities of death due to age is an appropriate consideration (and I agree that it is), is it appropriate to discuss the fact that Obama's relatively meager 1.85% chance can't account for the nutjob factor of a black president being targeted for assassination (as HRC never meant to imply slywink  )?
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« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2008, 04:07:54 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 23, 2008, 03:21:37 AM

   He said Republicans (that's me)

Just how many Republicans are you?    icon_smile
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« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2008, 04:10:57 PM »

Quote from: McBa1n on June 23, 2008, 07:11:28 AM

He's a man, just like McCain -- and he's running for President, that's all that SHOULD matter,

Hillary was right!    eek  icon_wink

« Last Edit: June 23, 2008, 04:12:38 PM by Electronic Dan » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2008, 04:50:01 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on June 23, 2008, 03:31:31 PM

If possibilities of death due to age is an appropriate consideration (and I agree that it is), is it appropriate to discuss the fact that Obama's relatively meager 1.85% chance can't account for the nutjob factor of a black president being targeted for assassination (as HRC never meant to imply slywink  )?

An assassination would be considered an Act of God and, by definition, an Act of God cannot be predicted, so not really.  Besides, the only historical data would be assassination attempts against Presidential candidates since we don't have data on any increased violence against black Presidents (besides the show "24").  It would be extremely difficult to come up with a supportable number on the increased (if any) chance of assassination of a black President versus a white President (since McCain's 15.2% doesn't factor in assassination attempts either).  Maybe we can run some polls to find out!

slywink

All kidding aside, it's probably bad Karma to even joke about such things.  An assassination of Obama would have the potential to cause riots that would make the LA riots look like a minor protest.  Not to mention that Bobby Kennedy was assassinated 40 years ago, a single act that probably changed the course (and likely not in a good way) of this country forever.
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« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2008, 05:03:38 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 23, 2008, 04:50:01 PM

All kidding aside, it's probably bad Karma to even joke about such things.  An assassination of Obama would have the potential to cause riots that would make the LA riots look like a minor protest.  Not to mention that Bobby Kennedy was assassinated 40 years ago, a single act that probably changed the course (and likely not in a good way) of this country forever.

You know.. I never really thought about it that far ahead, but I suspect you're scarily right.  I'm not yet sure to what degree the "black community" identifies with Barack Obama as "one of their own" or how closely they associate attacks on him with attacks on them, but if that association is or becomes as close as it has been with some other black leaders, I can absolutely see massive upheavals were he to be assassinated.
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« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2008, 05:16:08 PM »

Quote from: msduncan
I think what deadzone was saying -- and correct me if I'm wrong dead -- is that politics is dirty and this will get as dirty as it ever has.    And if the shoe was on the other foot and there was a Republican African American candidate -- some Democrats would be pulling out all the stops--including race--to take them down, dirty or not.

Let's pretend for a moment that such wild supposition could be backed up with clips of all the nasty race-based innuendo lobbed at Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice by major media outlets like CNN and MSNBC -- which it can't.  How would that excuse the *actual* nasty race-based innuendo propagated by Fox News or Rush "Barack the Magic Negro" Limbaugh, or justify msduncan's anger at Obama for calling them out about it?

Quote from: msduncan
And my point was that Obama basically lumped all Republicans into the racist bunch by making the statements he did.    He said Republicans (that's me) will use race against me.   *I* am not, and neither is Huckabee or many other Republicans that understand the significance of his nomination.   But he's already labeled us as racist by making statements like that.    And I take offense.

I'm sorry your feelings have been hurt.

Republicans have spent a great deal of time and energy over the last seven years questioning the intelligence, character, and patriotism of liberal democrats like myself, particularly when we dare to speak up about things like the horrific mistreatment of our injured veterans or other various Constitutional and human rights violations.  They've even been specifically assaulting Barack Obama's patriotism based on little more than his choice of wardrobe.

Perhaps it would be in your best interest to focus less on nursing your bruised ego, and more on explaining how the unconscionable failures by Republicans in managing nearly all aspects of foreign and domestic policy are not severe enough to completely invalidate John McCain's heavily Bush-based platform.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2008, 05:52:49 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 23, 2008, 05:16:08 PM


Let's pretend for a moment that such wild supposition could be backed up with clips of all the nasty race-based innuendo lobbed at Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice by major media outlets like CNN and MSNBC -- which it can't.  How would that excuse the *actual* nasty race-based innuendo propagated by Fox News or Rush "Barack the Magic Negro" Limbaugh, or justify msduncan's anger at Obama for calling them out about it?

Because I'm not a goddamn racist, but he called me out about it too since I'm a Republican.

First of all:   quite pretending the Democrats are innocent.
Secondly:  neither of those people were a candidate for President.

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« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2008, 06:05:31 PM »

Relax, msd. Nowhere did he say "All republicans," and he didn't single you out personally. He said "Republicans will do this." This is true. He didn't call you a racist, he called some racists Republicans.
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« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2008, 07:28:09 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 23, 2008, 04:50:01 PM

An assassination would be considered an Act of God

God's a hitman? Dude ... that's AWESOME! slywink

MSD, this is where the venn diagram comes in.
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« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2008, 08:18:49 PM »

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama.   We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person.   One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president.    But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.
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« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2008, 08:41:22 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on June 23, 2008, 08:18:49 PM

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama.   We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person.   One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president.    But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.

Maybe victims of such unfairness can seek advice and counsel.  For instance, from folks used to being branded as unpatriotic, anti-American, pro-terrorist, cowardly, or effeminate for not supporting Republicans or their platform. 

Of course, the advice "oh, rub some dirt on it and walk it off" isn't going to take a long time.

I'm not saying that characterizing non-racial disagreement as racist is right or admirable.  I'm just saying that, in seeking a whole lot of sympathy for Republicans, I'm finding the well to be dry.
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« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2008, 08:43:34 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on June 23, 2008, 08:18:49 PM

One of the things that I think is going to happen more, as we are already seeing it, is that people will label opposition to Obama as being linked to some type of racism from the person who dislikes Obama.   We have already seen it in this thread where MSD has basically been called a racist by more then one person.   One can have not a shred of racism in them and still think Obama would be a horrible failure as a president.    But the racism card will be played by some Obama supporters to try and shame people who oppose him, and that is going to be quite sad to see.

No.  MSD was passingly associated with racists by one person.  No one else has come close.  The problem MSD has is that in national campaigns that have garnered huge amounts of attention, conservative groups, generally republican-leaning in focus, have made a science of trashy thinly veiled innuendo and smears over the past couple of decades.  Because of that, fairly or not, Obama supporters are going to be hyper-sensitive to such activities. 

It's not to say that left-leaning and Democratic-party supporting groups haven't indulged in the same behavior - but it's the conservatives that have really abused this kind of politics repeatedly IMHO.
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