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Author Topic: Obama's a <n word> but I'm not racist!  (Read 2010 times)
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ATB
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2012, 02:27:10 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on November 13, 2012, 01:57:28 PM

See, the problem you're having in this discussion is that it seems you don't know what racism actually is.

Quote
I'll venture that most people have some degree of racism in them, but for most people it will be very little,

And here's the crux of the issue. I think you are describing prejudice but labeling it racist. 

Quote from:  Google
Racism is the belief that one race is superior to another.  That has to be taught, or developed as a cultural ideology. Prejudice is different.  Prejudice is the pre-judging of a situation or person based upon less than all the facts.

If i think less of my local convenience store because they hire a chinese guy, that's prejudice. If I think that all chinese people are inferior, that's racism.  Everyone may be prejudiced, but not everyone is racist.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:30:34 PM by ATB » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: November 13, 2012, 02:39:04 PM »

Quote from: ATB on November 13, 2012, 02:27:10 PM

And here's the crux of the issue. I think you are describing prejudice but labeling it racist.  

No, you are talking about behavior. I'm talking about belief. I don't see how the definition of prejudice matches either, btw.

Here's what dictionary.com has to say:

Quote
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races  determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race  is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race  or other races.

I've bolded the important word for you.

I must admit that I'm a bit alarmed that you're now starting to dig deep into the definition of the word racist instead of dealing with the issue at hand. That suggests to me that you find something about what I've been saying in my previous posts deeply uncomfortable, and that you maybe are looking for something that will make sure you don't fit into the definition, though it could also be something else which I'm misreading completely. From my first post in this thread:

Quote
The one constant about racism is that those who suffer from it are (for the most part) unable to see it for themselves. They always push the bar ahead of them, and with every new racist opinion they create in their minds, the bar is pushed a little further, always keeping them in the safe zone of "I'm not racist, I'm just asking questions".

Also, from your post:

Quote
If i think less of my local convenience store because they hire a chinese guy, that's prejudice.

Yes, but it's also racism.
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« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2012, 02:43:39 PM »

Prejudicial judgement is almost always a result of racism.  The existence of one doesn't automatically preclude the existence of the other.  They exist together as hunger exists in the wake of starvation.  Why you're trying to say otherwise, I do not know.  I suspect Tilt is either correct in his assumption that you don't know what racism is at even the most fundamental level, or you're simply playing devil's advocate and attempting to use faulty semantics to extend the life of a discussion that was essentially answered already.

And yes, I'm attempting to be civil today.

p.s. Chinese is not a race.  I'm assuming you meant to say Asian.  Otherwise we're discussing nationalism.


« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 02:47:47 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2012, 02:52:26 PM »

First off, racism is a sub set of prejudice.  You can be fine with describing prejudice, when discussing racism because racism IS prejudice, its just racially focused.
 The main issue here is trying to see racism as cut and dry.  Like most social, moral issues it isnt.  Does a racist remark make someone a racist?  Tough question.  I think a little perspective necessary before you can liberally apply that label.  Things like context are important.  Whats more important in defining a person, his words or his actions?  Is an emotional outburst reason to label someone a racist?  Howard Cosell was fired ( some say he was voluntarily retired) from Monday Night Football for saying "look at that little monkey run"  yet was also a staunch supporter of civil rights and openly supported Olympic sprinters John Carlos and Tommie Smith after they raised their fists in a "black power" salute during their 1968 medal ceremony.  Was Cosell racist?  
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« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2012, 02:58:25 PM »

Quote from: rshetts2 on November 13, 2012, 02:52:26 PM

First off, racism is a sub set of prejudice.  You can be fine with describing prejudice, when discussing racism because racism IS prejudice, its just racially focused.
 The main issue here is trying to see racism as cut and dry.  Like most social, moral issues it isnt.  Does a racist remark make someone a racist?  Tough question.  I think a little perspective necessary before you can liberally apply that label.  Things like context are important.  Whats more important in defining a person, his words or his actions?  Is an emotional outburst reason to label someone a racist?  Howard Cosell was fired ( some say he was voluntarily retired) from Monday Night Football for saying "look at that little monkey run"  yet was also a staunch supporter of civil rights and openly supported Olympic sprinters John Carlos and Tommie Smith after they raised their fists in a "black power" salute during their 1968 medal ceremony.  Was Cosell racist?  

Yeah, this doesn't need to be a semantic dance.  Calling Obama a nigger is racist...there's no other way around it.  That someone tries to brush it off as not racist makes them look the same.

Oh, to defend Cosell...he had used that phrase before with a white player and called is grandchildren "little monkeys".  It was part of his vernacular.  So while what he said was grossly insensitive, the little monkey comment wasn't due to Alvin Garrett's race and had no racist intent.    
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« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2012, 02:59:52 PM »

It's very possible Cosell was.  Racism does not always result in a negative prejudicial reaction (at least as far as intent goes).  Look at the examples of empires throughout history that have tried to lift up the native African or Asian populations of regions due to their belief that they were inferior and needed such help.  Many times, that prejudice ended with violence or subjugation, but it sometimes started with a sincere attempt at helping those that were viewed as fundamentally flawed due to their race.  While modern sensibilities would (or rather should) see that as a negative perception on the part of the "saviors", they themselves viewed their actions as just and noble.

However, I like to think that Cosell was simply choosing an agile monkey as an analogy for the athlete in question and wasn't quick enough to realize the implications before uttering that comparison.  If he'd used a word that couldn't be used as an effective analogical tool in such circumstances (such as the n word) then he'd be racist.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 03:15:49 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2012, 03:23:51 PM »

Whatís exactly sure how to address this, but honestly we are all adults.  Nigga/Nigger has been so mainstreamed due to pop culture and music that I as a black male no longer get upset when I see it or hear it.  Maybe, itís apathy , but when I was growing up my parents never allowed it to be spoken in our home, but in the streets the words was used as term of endearment.  It wasnít until I got much older and more educated that I started to find the word repugnant and weeded it of my vocabulary.   Funny thing is that some of my friends still use the word casually and in mix company and when I hear it I cringe every time.

Honestly, Iíve heard White, Asian &  Hispanic use the words without malice especially the latter

As far as racism goes Iíve seen it in my family..   My mother does not trust white people, but she grew up in rural Virginia during the 40s, 50s and 60s.  This doesnít excuse her, but her experience was nothing but crushing Jim Crowe Laws and hangings.  Supposedly one of my great uncles was lynched by the Klan ( the family still refuses to talk about it)

Iíve only experienced racism once and that was when I was in the military when I was in basic.   I had to share a tent with two Texas white guys and one refused to sleep in the same tent with me.  Our drill sergeant caught wind of it and he spend the rest of basic training working with nothing but the blacks and Hispanics in our unit



Saying all this to me actions speak louder than words.   So was her comments racist I donít know. 
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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2012, 03:28:37 PM »

Quote from: Soulchilde on November 13, 2012, 03:23:51 PM


Iíve only experienced racism once and that was when I was in the military when I was in basic.   I had to share a tent with two Texas white guys and one refused to sleep in the same tent with me.  Our drill sergeant caught wind of it and he spend the rest of basic training working with nothing but the blacks and Hispanics in our unit.

 icon_lol  Did their attitudes eventually change?
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« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2012, 03:35:10 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 13, 2012, 03:28:37 PM

Quote from: Soulchilde on November 13, 2012, 03:23:51 PM


Iíve only experienced racism once and that was when I was in the military when I was in basic.   I had to share a tent with two Texas white guys and one refused to sleep in the same tent with me.  Our drill sergeant caught wind of it and he spend the rest of basic training working with nothing but the blacks and Hispanics in our unit.

 icon_lol  Did their attitudes eventually change?

I guess... I know our instructor informed him that he would pass along his special training requirement when he wend to AIT 
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« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2012, 04:20:32 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 13, 2012, 02:58:25 PM

Yeah, this doesn't need to be a semantic dance.  Calling Obama a nigger is racist...there's no other way around it. 

You are missing the whole point of the conversation.

The question isn't whether what was said was racist (clearly) the question was does saying it make one racist?

Quote
That someone tries to brush it off as not racist makes them look the same.

Who's brushing what off now? 

Quote
I suspect Tilt is either correct in his assumption that you don't know what racism is at even the most fundamental level, or you're simply playing devil's advocate and attempting to use faulty semantics to extend the life of a discussion that was essentially answered already.

It's not the latter. I can't make what you guys are saying balance in my brain.  And as I've said, and Tilt addressed, I seem to be stuck at the poles.  You're either racist or you're not.  I see it as binary.  You guys say it's more amorphous. I replied that I think everyone is prejudiced against someone different from them in some way.   But it seems that you're saying is everyone is racist in someways.   I don't think being prejudiced makes someone racist

In my head racist = hatred.  It seems that you guys are saying racism and prejudice are the same thing.

Quote
intolerance

Again, I see this as a binary.  Not sure how one can be both intolerant and not intolerant at the same time.

Quote
That suggests to me that you find something about what I've been saying in my previous posts deeply uncomfortable,

I think i'm getting lost in the subtleties you're trying to illuminate nothing more.  I'm not working through anything deep here.
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« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2012, 04:23:36 PM »

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First off, racism is a sub set of prejudice.  You can be fine with describing prejudice, when discussing racism because racism IS prejudice, its just racially focused.

I think this is the answer I need to attempt to process.
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« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2012, 04:25:35 PM »

Racist = feeling superior to another simply due to their race.  That superiority does not necessarily have to result in hatred.  It could result in any form of prejudice.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:33:14 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2012, 04:33:31 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 13, 2012, 04:25:35 PM

Racist = feeling superior to another simply due to their race.  That superiority does not necessarily have to result in hatred.  It could result in any form of prejudice.

It doesn't necessarily mean you feel superior. It can be more impersonal (ie. you can do a racist comparison between blacks and Asians even if you're white, without comparing them to your own race). It can also go the other way ("All Jews are good with money"), though there's negative prejudice boiling under the surface there as well.

 
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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2012, 04:37:21 PM »

I believe that racism ALWAYS includes feelings of superiority to another race.  In the case of jews being good with money, they were being marginalized as less than human in their desire to acquire money at whatever the cost.  They're incomplete beings that desire only one thing...money.   Google images of "Shylock" (a Shakespearean character symbolizing the "greedy jew" of that period).  You'll notice that they're all bestial, almost rat like...wringing their hands or brandishing a knife to show that they're not the best of folks in the popular view of that period.

If you feel someone is your peer in all things, you don't assign them stereotypes.  If you feel that someone is fundamentally better than you, it's admiration.

edit:  upon further thought, I take back that last part about feeling admiration towards those superior to you.  I think perhaps that racism CAN spring from that scenario as a reaction to feeling inferior to someone.  In that case, I can see trying to tear them down by MAKING them inferior in some way in your eyes (and the eyes of others).
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« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2012, 02:38:37 AM »

Quote from: ATB on November 12, 2012, 07:31:24 PM

Quote from: hepcat on November 12, 2012, 07:16:50 PM

The confirmed intent of that facebook post was to insinuate the president was worthless

This is okay

Quote
and deserving of death.  

This is not.

Quote
Tacking on the n word was her way of showing his worthlessness by using a term she believed trivialized and insulted the man.

Agreed. But does the act of tacking on the word make her a racist? Or was she just trying to insult him in a deeply offensive way?

Ask yourself why it would insult him in a deeply offensive way and you might have your answer.

Ale
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 03:26:10 AM by Alefroth » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2012, 03:48:51 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 13, 2012, 02:43:39 PM

Prejudicial judgement is almost always a result of racism.  The existence of one doesn't automatically preclude the existence of the other.  They exist together as hunger exists in the wake of starvation.  Why you're trying to say otherwise, I do not know.  I suspect Tilt is either correct in his assumption that you don't know what racism is at even the most fundamental level, or you're simply playing devil's advocate and attempting to use faulty semantics to extend the life of a discussion that was essentially answered already.

And yes, I'm attempting to be civil today.

p.s. Chinese is not a race.  I'm assuming you meant to say Asian.  Otherwise we're discussing nationalism.

Chinese is a race. Asian is not a race.
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« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2012, 05:28:41 AM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on November 14, 2012, 03:48:51 AM

Quote from: hepcat on November 13, 2012, 02:43:39 PM

Prejudicial judgement is almost always a result of racism.  The existence of one doesn't automatically preclude the existence of the other.  They exist together as hunger exists in the wake of starvation.  Why you're trying to say otherwise, I do not know.  I suspect Tilt is either correct in his assumption that you don't know what racism is at even the most fundamental level, or you're simply playing devil's advocate and attempting to use faulty semantics to extend the life of a discussion that was essentially answered already.

And yes, I'm attempting to be civil today.

p.s. Chinese is not a race.  I'm assuming you meant to say Asian.  Otherwise we're discussing nationalism.

Chinese is a race. Asian is not a race.


You're wrong.  Chinese is a nationality.  Asian (or, more accurately, mongoloid) is a race.
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« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2012, 05:49:31 AM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on November 14, 2012, 03:48:51 AM

Chinese is a race. Asian is not a race.

I have no idea what would make you draw that conclusion, but it's about as wrong as wrong can get.
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« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2012, 06:12:21 AM »

I'm sure that's a very settling sentiment to the Uyghur and Tibetan people that live in China.
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« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2012, 08:33:44 AM »

Quote from: pr0ner on November 14, 2012, 05:28:41 AM

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on November 14, 2012, 03:48:51 AM

Quote from: hepcat on November 13, 2012, 02:43:39 PM

Prejudicial judgement is almost always a result of racism.  The existence of one doesn't automatically preclude the existence of the other.  They exist together as hunger exists in the wake of starvation.  Why you're trying to say otherwise, I do not know.  I suspect Tilt is either correct in his assumption that you don't know what racism is at even the most fundamental level, or you're simply playing devil's advocate and attempting to use faulty semantics to extend the life of a discussion that was essentially answered already.

And yes, I'm attempting to be civil today.

p.s. Chinese is not a race.  I'm assuming you meant to say Asian.  Otherwise we're discussing nationalism.

Chinese is a race. Asian is not a race.


You're wrong.  Chinese is a nationality.  Asian (or, more accurately, mongoloid) is a race.

I guess I got mixed up between race and ethnicity.

So if you don't like Chinese people, but not Pakistan people, you're racist or not?

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« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2012, 08:58:40 AM »

Quote from: Victoria Raverna on November 14, 2012, 08:33:44 AM

So if you don't like Chinese people, but not Pakistan people, you're racist or not?

Is there race involved? Yes? Racism. No? Not racism.

It's not rocket science.
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« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2012, 09:27:56 AM »

She was just giving an opinion so obviously she's not racist! She'd only be a racist if she had said it as a fact! Anyways, for the rest of her life whenever a potential employer Googles her name its going to come up with a story of her calling the president the N-word. So it all works out in the end!
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« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2012, 06:04:37 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on November 12, 2012, 05:46:44 PM

That's essentially what a woman in California is saying after she posted a racially charged update about Obama's reelection recently.

My favorite part is the vehement denial on her part that she's even remotely racist.  Lady, that ship sailed. 

Ummm... how do you define "racism?"

Her rant reads as someone who is prejudiced, not racist.  The two words have significantly different meanings.  Just because the press repeatedly over-uses and mis-uses the word racism, does not mean you should.

Racism
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race

Prejudice
Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

Which one of those sounds more appropriate given her statements.

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« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2012, 12:00:10 PM »

Quote from: theohall on December 30, 2012, 06:04:37 AM

Quote from: hepcat on November 12, 2012, 05:46:44 PM

That's essentially what a woman in California is saying after she posted a racially charged update about Obama's reelection recently.

My favorite part is the vehement denial on her part that she's even remotely racist.  Lady, that ship sailed. 

Ummm... how do you define "racism?"

Her rant reads as someone who is prejudiced, not racist.  The two words have significantly different meanings.  Just because the press repeatedly over-uses and mis-uses the word racism, does not mean you should.

Racism
The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race

Prejudice
Preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience.

Which one of those sounds more appropriate given her statements.

Dude, we finished this discussion 1 1/2 months ago, yet here you barge in late and completely ignore what has been said before.

Your definitions are incomplete. You've cherry-picked the definitions that suit you best. Here's another definition for racism, straight from dictionary.com and also posted earlier on this very page:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Notice number 3.

End of discussion.
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« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2012, 07:36:21 PM »

I don't think I've ever come across anyone who tried to justify calling an African American citizen the n word before.  The level of self deception it takes to convince one that this is true is astounding.  I would love to see him prove his point by heading to a predominanty African American neighborhood and slingling that word around as a greeting.  I would imagine his cries of "but I'm just being prejudicial, not racist!" will likely not work.
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« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2012, 10:36:14 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on December 30, 2012, 07:36:21 PM

I don't think I've ever come across anyone who tried to justify calling an African American citizen the n word before.  The level of self deception it takes to convince one that this is true is astounding.  I would love to see him prove his point by heading to a predominanty African American neighborhood and slingling that word around as a greeting.  I would imagine his cries of "but I'm just being prejudicial, not racist!" will likely not work.

Die Hard 3 springs to mind.
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