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Author Topic: McCain won't rule out pre-emptive war  (Read 6039 times)
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unbreakable
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« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2008, 09:09:14 PM »

Quote from: Exodor on April 11, 2008, 09:00:10 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 08:51:45 PM

Yes, they never have.  Except for Cuba.  And Texas/Mexico.  And that whole genocide thing against the Native Americans.  And Korea.  And Vietnam.  And so on and so forth.

 icon_lol

Explain to me how America's involvement in Vietnam was a pre-emptive war of aggression.

 Bring your own!

Were the Vietnamese about to launch an attack on America?

Oh, and feel free to address the other situations I mentioned...  I'm sure that will be good viewing  Bring your own!
Hopefully you don't actually intend to cherry-pick your scenarios.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 09:10:52 PM by unbreakable » Logged
msduncan
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2008, 10:51:59 PM »

I have two comments"

1.   It's hard as hell to comment when I can't get here from work.   I leave and go to work and then BOOM... there's been 20 replies.   Damnit! 

2.  I'm not sure I've ever witnessed a forum poster use the technique of linking an empty google search screen twice in the same week until now.   Congrats Unbreakable, that might be a record.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2008, 10:55:24 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: Exodor on April 11, 2008, 09:00:10 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 08:51:45 PM

Yes, they never have.  Except for Cuba.  And Texas/Mexico.  And that whole genocide thing against the Native Americans.  And Korea.  And Vietnam.  And so on and so forth.

 icon_lol

Explain to me how America's involvement in Vietnam was a pre-emptive war of aggression.

 Bring your own!



Oh, and feel free to address the other situations I mentioned...  I'm sure that will be good viewing  Bring your own!
Hopefully you don't actually intend to cherry-pick your scenarios.

Mine as well throw in WW1 too.  I don't think the Germans or Ausro-Hungarians were likely to attack the US.  Oh and lets put the Korean War in there too.  And the first Gulf War.

Right?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 10:56:58 PM by denoginizer » Logged

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CSL
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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2008, 11:23:12 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on April 11, 2008, 10:55:24 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: Exodor on April 11, 2008, 09:00:10 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 08:51:45 PM

Yes, they never have.  Except for Cuba.  And Texas/Mexico.  And that whole genocide thing against the Native Americans.  And Korea.  And Vietnam.  And so on and so forth.

 icon_lol

Explain to me how America's involvement in Vietnam was a pre-emptive war of aggression.

 Bring your own!



Oh, and feel free to address the other situations I mentioned...  I'm sure that will be good viewing  Bring your own!
Hopefully you don't actually intend to cherry-pick your scenarios.

Mine as well throw in WW1 too.  I don't think the Germans or Ausro-Hungarians were likely to attack the US.  Oh and lets put the Korean War in there too.  And the first Gulf War.

Right?


You missed that he did put Korea on his list. Remember folks in the Unbreakable world every combat role ever made by an American government has been preemptive and without cause.
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msduncan
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2008, 12:16:04 AM »

Quote from: CSL on April 11, 2008, 11:23:12 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 11, 2008, 10:55:24 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: Exodor on April 11, 2008, 09:00:10 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 08:51:45 PM

Yes, they never have.  Except for Cuba.  And Texas/Mexico.  And that whole genocide thing against the Native Americans.  And Korea.  And Vietnam.  And so on and so forth.

 icon_lol

Explain to me how America's involvement in Vietnam was a pre-emptive war of aggression.

 Bring your own!



Oh, and feel free to address the other situations I mentioned...  I'm sure that will be good viewing  Bring your own!
Hopefully you don't actually intend to cherry-pick your scenarios.

Mine as well throw in WW1 too.  I don't think the Germans or Ausro-Hungarians were likely to attack the US.  Oh and lets put the Korean War in there too.  And the first Gulf War.

Right?


You missed that he did put Korea on his list. Remember folks in the Unbreakable world every combat role ever made by an American government has been preemptive and without cause.

CSL, you can find an entire LIST of wars the United States waged preemptively right here.

 icon_lol
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SuperHiro
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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2008, 04:01:16 AM »

Tay Zonday was a better avatar.  That one just says you're an antagonistic jackass.  Mr. Zonday says you love you some Chocolate Rain.



And I can make it thematically appropriate

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msduncan
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2008, 04:16:28 AM »

Quote from: SuperHiro on April 12, 2008, 04:01:16 AM

Tay Zonday was a better avatar.  That one just says you're an antagonistic jackass.  Mr. Zonday says you love you some Chocolate Rain.



And I can make it thematically appropriate



I do like that modified Tay Zonday.     And that reminds me to get to bed.   I'm going to the Alabama A-day game tomorrow.
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Exodor
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2008, 02:16:46 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 09:09:14 PM

Quote from: Exodor on April 11, 2008, 09:00:10 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 11, 2008, 08:51:45 PM

Yes, they never have.  Except for Cuba.  And Texas/Mexico.  And that whole genocide thing against the Native Americans.  And Korea.  And Vietnam.  And so on and so forth.

 icon_lol

Explain to me how America's involvement in Vietnam was a pre-emptive war of aggression.

 Bring your own!

Were the Vietnamese about to launch an attack on America?

How did America come to be involved in Vietnam, again?

And Korea, for that matter.


You know someone is out there when msd and I are both arguing against them. 
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unbreakable
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2008, 09:25:05 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 11, 2008, 10:51:59 PM

2.  I'm not sure I've ever witnessed a forum poster use the technique of linking an empty google search screen twice in the same week until now.   Congrats Unbreakable, that might be a record.

Yeah, I know.  It's such a shame people have to keep asking me to do their thinking for them, isn't it?
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CSL
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« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2008, 07:05:36 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 12, 2008, 09:25:05 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 11, 2008, 10:51:59 PM

2.  I'm not sure I've ever witnessed a forum poster use the technique of linking an empty google search screen twice in the same week until now.   Congrats Unbreakable, that might be a record.

Yeah, I know.  It's such a shame people have to keep asking me to do their thinking for them, isn't it?

We don't want you to do anything of the thing - we want you to think, not just provide spurious claims without evidence. If you made any of these claims in a university level history course you'd be laughed out of class when you never cited any works and told your professor to google it.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2008, 05:22:00 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 13, 2008, 07:05:36 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 12, 2008, 09:25:05 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 11, 2008, 10:51:59 PM

2.  I'm not sure I've ever witnessed a forum poster use the technique of linking an empty google search screen twice in the same week until now.   Congrats Unbreakable, that might be a record.

Yeah, I know.  It's such a shame people have to keep asking me to do their thinking for them, isn't it?

We don't want you to do anything of the thing - we want you to think, not just provide spurious claims without evidence. If you made any of these claims in a university level history course you'd be laughed out of class when you never cited any works and told your professor to google it.

Well it's a good thing this isn't university level history, isn't it?

So you can do your own homework, kid.  I'm not your daddy, and it's not my job to educate people.  If someone doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, that's a deficiency in their own knowledge, and it's up to them to address it.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2008, 07:09:12 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 05:22:00 PM

If someone doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, that's a deficiency in their own knowledge, and it's up to them to address it.

 icon_lol
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pr0ner
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« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2008, 07:41:31 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 05:22:00 PM


So you can do your own homework, kid.  I'm not your daddy, and it's not my job to educate people.  If someone doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, that's a deficiency in their own knowledge, and it's up to them to address it.

 Roll Eyes

Your inability to provide any sort of proof makes all of your outrageous statements unsubstantiated bullshit.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2008, 08:11:21 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on April 13, 2008, 07:41:31 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 05:22:00 PM


So you can do your own homework, kid.  I'm not your daddy, and it's not my job to educate people.  If someone doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, that's a deficiency in their own knowledge, and it's up to them to address it.

 Roll Eyes

Your inability to provide any sort of proof makes all of your outrageous statements unsubstantiated bullshit.

That would be true... if my goal were to convince people they are wrong.  However, it doesn't bother me one bit that someone on the internet is wrong.  Thus, I see no compelling reason to "prove" them wrong.


I have a better idea!  Why don't YOU come up with proof that I'm wrong, and then *I* can just wage war against the "proof" you've found, or where you get it from, etc!  I'm starting to see playing that game is less energy than showing the billions of people on the intarweb that they hold opinions with zero basis in fact.

So please, by all means, prove that there weren't warships around Japan stopping the delivery of fuel or steel.  And be sure to write your post so that it would pass the "university history level" filter which is in effect here (but only regarding my posts).  Cuz this is a classy joint.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 08:18:01 PM by unbreakable » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2008, 08:37:49 PM »

Because it's not my job to back up claims, since I have made none in this thread.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2008, 09:41:05 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on April 13, 2008, 08:37:49 PM

Because it's not my job to back up claims, since I have made none in this thread.

And it's not my job to educate you, since I don't care whether you agree with me or not.

Therefore, I'm at a loss as to why you replied to my post in the first place.  Your opposition to my statements is essentially unsubstantiated bullshit.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 09:43:13 PM by unbreakable » Logged
Exodor
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« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2008, 10:03:38 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 08:11:21 PM

I'm starting to see playing that game is less energy than showing the billions of people on the intarweb that they hold opinions with zero basis in fact.

The easiest game seems be making broad, outrageous claims with no basis in fact.

You never did explain to me how America coming to the aid of the South Vietnamese government was a pre-emptive war.    icon_lol


Nor how our participation in the UN defense of South Korea qualifies.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2008, 02:26:50 AM »

Quote from: Exodor on April 13, 2008, 10:03:38 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 08:11:21 PM

I'm starting to see playing that game is less energy than showing the billions of people on the intarweb that they hold opinions with zero basis in fact.

The easiest game seems be making broad, outrageous claims with no basis in fact.

You never did explain to me how America coming to the aid of the South Vietnamese government was a pre-emptive war.    icon_lol


Nor how our participation in the UN defense of South Korea qualifies.

According to an uninformed person, a great many thing have no basis in fact.  It is not my job to bring information to the billions of people who are... gasp!... wrong on the internet.

Poster, educate thyself.

BTW, I have no burden to prove any of the things you claim.  The burden rests with you for showing how those wars were in defense of America... especially since in your world we need to expect aggression out of a country which has never attacked someone in it's entire history.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:29:19 AM by unbreakable » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2008, 05:23:44 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 14, 2008, 02:26:50 AM

BTW, I have no burden to prove any of the things you claim.  The burden rests with you for showing how those wars were in defense of America.
\

More of your useless prattling. Moreover, just because all wars aren't for the direct defense of America doesn't mean they were wars of aggression. For one if you had any notion of substantive foreign policy or international relation debates over the last century you'd realize that Korea was fought over with the idea of collective security foremost in everybody's mind.

Quote
...especially since in your world we need to expect aggression out of a country which has never attacked someone in it's entire history.

Even if I accepted the idea that Iran hasn't committed acts of aggression through proxy terrorist organizations against Israel - you're dead wrong about Iran having never attacked ANYONE throughout its history. Maybe if you probed the actual history of the region and looked at just a few of the wars Persia engaged in throughout the last few millenia. Persian forces invaded Afghanistan during the nineteenth century to take Herat province. There is also Nader Shah - described by some as Persia's Napoleon. I'd go on, but any sensible person would realize that its amusingly laughable to state that Iran/Persia has never once attacked anyone - ever.
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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2008, 05:31:36 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 14, 2008, 02:26:50 AM

BTW, I have no burden to prove any of the things you claim.  The burden rests with you for showing how those wars were in defense of America... especially since in your world we need to expect aggression out of a country which has never attacked someone in it's entire history.

I never claimed it was a defense of America.

YOU claimed it was a pre-emptive war.  The burden of proof is on you.

Although it's quite clear that you never bother to back anything up.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2008, 02:45:09 PM »

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unbreakable
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« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2008, 02:47:13 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 05:23:44 AM

Quote
...especially since in your world we need to expect aggression out of a country which has never attacked someone in it's entire history.

Even if I accepted the idea that Iran hasn't committed acts of aggression through proxy terrorist organizations against Israel - you're dead wrong about Iran having never attacked ANYONE throughout its history. Maybe if you probed the actual history of the region and looked at just a few of the wars Persia engaged in throughout the last few millenia. Persian forces invaded Afghanistan during the nineteenth century to take Herat province. There is also Nader Shah - described by some as Persia's Napoleon. I'd go on, but any sensible person would realize that its amusingly laughable to state that Iran/Persia has never once attacked anyone - ever.

Ah yes... the "proxy war".  It's the new WMD claim!  Except... it's even better, since there won't be any nasty ol' lack of physical evidence to reveal it as the bullshit it actually is.


Seeing how the proponents and supporters of the war in Iraq have proven to be quite reliably wrong on LITERALLY EVERYTHING... it doesn't take a genius to assume they are going to be wrong on anything else they say... especially when even their ability to tell the truth doesn't exist.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:49:54 PM by unbreakable » Logged
Exodor
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« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2008, 04:42:33 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 14, 2008, 02:45:09 PM


About what I expected.

Sad, really.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2008, 11:13:11 AM »

I'm confused how some people keep making claims, not backing them up, then accusing others of making claims and not backing them up when they didn't.

Incredibly short-sighted people that are completely full of themselves, good times.

Vietnam, the first Gulf War and WWI aren't a case of a pre-emptive war, since a war was already happening numbnuts.  Our involvement was to aid allies and/or to prevent further aggressions. 

Unbreakable seems to have some serious issues with basic definitions of terms if not outright facts. 

Define a Blockade

Define a Pre-emptive War

Then maybe we can see where you're coming from and you won't sound so g'damn crazy when you talk

It's like you randomly substitute the definition that suits you to whatever words you choose.

Btw, my definition of 'crazy' above is 'not well informed' as opposed to 'bat shit crazy'  finger
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2008, 01:04:46 PM »

FWIW, Unbreakable is no longer allowed to post in R&P and, as such, will not be responding to your questions. 
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Harkonis
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« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2008, 01:17:37 PM »

Thank you for the update and the action taken. smile
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Hyperion
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« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2008, 02:36:04 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on April 24, 2008, 01:04:46 PM

FWIW, Unbreakable is no longer allowed to post in R&P and, as such, will not be responding to your questions. 

Delurking for a moment.

I am just curious why he was banned?  Not because he was argumentative I hope.

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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2008, 02:47:15 PM »

Quote from: Hyperion on April 24, 2008, 02:36:04 PM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on April 24, 2008, 01:04:46 PM

FWIW, Unbreakable is no longer allowed to post in R&P and, as such, will not be responding to your questions. 

Delurking for a moment.

I am just curious why he was banned?  Not because he was argumentative I hope.

Multiple violations of this:

Quote from: Code of Conduct
If you have something against another poster you will either need to keep silent or be respectful of their opinions.  Feel free to engage in discussion, but keep it civil. If you can't talk to other people as if they're intelligent, you won’t be posting here for long. Don't talk down to your fellow posters, don't lecture them, and don't beat people over the head with your opinions as though they were facts.

and this:

Quote from: Code of Conduct
In addition, please do not respond to any baiting.  By responding you are giving the troll what they want - a reaction out of you.  This will soon escalate and get quickly out of hand.

To say that numerous warnings were given would be an understatement.


To be clear- unbreakable has not been banned from the site.  Just from posting in R&P.  So far, however, he seems to have decided to bow out of GT participation altogether. 
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Harkonis
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« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2008, 04:10:27 PM »

So are you saying that unbreakable has been broken?   ninja
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« Reply #69 on: April 26, 2008, 09:35:27 PM »

Quote from: helot2000 on April 11, 2008, 07:46:22 PM

It would be very cool if we could look forward to what Gingrich proposed as a modern Lincoln-Douglas style debate and discussion of the issues of our day.  Of course, I'm dreaming again...

Quote from: Gingrich
A challenge arrived at the office of every presidential candidate about two weeks ago. It was a letter, signed by journalist Marvin Kalb and me, challenging each one, Republican and Democrat, to sign on for "Nine Nineties in Nine." That is, if nominated, they would pledge to take part in nine 90-minute debates in the nine weeks leading up to election day.

How is this different? We are asking the candidates to throw out the rule book that has stifled political debate. Each party's nominee would be expected to present and defend solutions in a one-on-one dialogue with his or her opponent. The moderator would only keep time and introduce topics.


Probably more of a stunt than anything else, but...

Clinton challenges Obama to Lincoln-Douglas style debate
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« Reply #70 on: April 26, 2008, 09:51:58 PM »

Sweet.  Apparently the Clinton camp peruses the Political forum here at GT.   slywink

This is quite clever her.  She is playing from behind and needs any break she can find/make to shake up and catch Obama.  She's a very good debater and while I haven't watched the 21 Democratic debates,  I've read that she is usually scored the winner.  As much as I would enjoy seeing this, Obama's camp won't bite on this.   I can only imagine what it would be like be on a stage with Mrs. Clinton for 90 minutes, one-on-one.
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« Reply #71 on: April 26, 2008, 10:25:13 PM »

Quote from: helot2000 on April 26, 2008, 09:51:58 PM

Sweet.  Apparently the Clinton camp peruses the Political forum here at GT.   slywink

This is quite clever her.  She is playing from behind and needs any break she can find/make to shake up and catch Obama.  She's a very good debater and while I haven't watched the 21 Democratic debates,  I've read that she is usually scored the winner.  As much as I would enjoy seeing this, Obama's camp won't bite on this.   I can only imagine what it would be like be on a stage with Mrs. Clinton for 90 minutes, one-on-one.

Apparently she doesn't know exactly how those Lincoln-Douglas debates were done. If they did it the right way she'd speak for an hour - he'd get an hour and a half rebuttal and then she'd get a half hour to finish off. Then they'd switch places for the next. In any debate of that form she would get beaten by Obama handily. He doesn't like the current aska  question have half a minute or a minute to respond kind of thing, but I assure you he'd love this kind of format.
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« Reply #72 on: April 26, 2008, 11:11:26 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 11, 2008, 08:24:15 PM

which apparently in your mind shows that there was a preemptive desire to go to war with Japan.

Nonexistent blockade aside, there certainly WAS a desire in some factions of the US govt. to prod Japan into some action that would justify/initiate war.

Anyway.. carry on smile

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CSL
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« Reply #73 on: April 26, 2008, 11:19:55 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on April 26, 2008, 11:11:26 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 11, 2008, 08:24:15 PM

which apparently in your mind shows that there was a preemptive desire to go to war with Japan.

Nonexistent blockade aside, there certainly WAS a desire in some factions of the US govt. to prod Japan into some action that would justify/initiate war.

Anyway.. carry on smile



Yeah there was a desire by some to do that - but if I remember our original argument the issue was if the government itself attempted to initiate war which I don't think is reasonable to assume.
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Harkonis
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« Reply #74 on: April 27, 2008, 11:14:20 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 26, 2008, 11:19:55 PM

Quote from: Geezer on April 26, 2008, 11:11:26 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 11, 2008, 08:24:15 PM

which apparently in your mind shows that there was a preemptive desire to go to war with Japan.

Nonexistent blockade aside, there certainly WAS a desire in some factions of the US govt. to prod Japan into some action that would justify/initiate war.

Anyway.. carry on smile



Yeah there was a desire by some to do that - but if I remember our original argument the issue was if the government itself attempted to initiate war which I don't think is reasonable to assume.

They just needed to get the Japanese into the Peach Orchard
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helot2000
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« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2008, 02:16:02 AM »

Quote from: Harkonis on April 27, 2008, 11:14:20 PM

They just needed to get the Japanese into the Peach Orchard
If you can read this and make the connection, you just might be a history geek.   
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« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2008, 04:18:56 AM »

Quote from: helot2000 on April 28, 2008, 02:16:02 AM

Quote from: Harkonis on April 27, 2008, 11:14:20 PM

They just needed to get the Japanese into the Peach Orchard
If you can read this and make the connection, you just might be a history geek.   

And understand a reference to a notable CoD4 multiplayer match.
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