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Author Topic: [USA] SHUTDOWN SHUTDOWN!!!!!! Sequel is in the works, slated for Q1 2014 release  (Read 11165 times)
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TiLT
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« Reply #280 on: October 17, 2013, 08:59:43 AM »

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« Reply #281 on: October 17, 2013, 10:47:45 AM »

Quote from: Purge on October 17, 2013, 03:19:24 AM

So what was the coles notes on what has been agreed to? Is Obama-care passed?


I understand your meaning, but in the interest of underscoring just how fucking stupid this entire exercise has been, I'd like to clarify that "ObamaCare" was passed in 2010.  

It was then re-litigated in the states and challenged all the way to the Supreme Court where it was affirmed as a just and constitutional law.  It was also a primary focus of the 2012 presidential election in which every Republican in the country ran on the explicit promise to repeal ObamaCare.  That platform cost them the presidency and whittled their presence in the senate even further.

*This* fight was over whether or not House Republicans, sitting in their exhaustively gerrymandered districts, could strong-arm the Democrats into repealing their own law by threatening to destroy the economy.  At various points in the process, they also demanded

- construction of the Keystone Pipeline,

- an end to Net Neutrality regulations,

- the elimination of birth control coverage from health insurance coverage,

- lessened pensions for federal employees,

- expanded oil drilling rights on federal lands,

- a weakening of EPA regulations on coal plants,

and on and on and on.  Those aren't other pieces of legislation considered during the same time period, mind you -- they were the things Republicans wanted in exchange for releasing their hostage.

But as Lee said, Republicans did not get anything on their list of demands.  They did, however, cost the United States upwards of $20,000,000,000 in lost economic activity and contingency measures during the shutdown, and their threat to default may still cause Moody's to lower the nation's credit rating.  It'll likely be several weeks before we know for sure.

In any sort of a sane world, this sort of behavior would end the GOP at a national level for a generation.  Here, I doubt we'll have to wait a full week before one of the 144 Republicans who voted against the bill last night is invited on television to complain about what a dangerous anti-American spendthrift Barack Obama is.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #282 on: October 17, 2013, 11:59:29 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on October 17, 2013, 10:47:45 AM

Here, I doubt we'll have to wait a full week before one of the 144 Republicans who voted against the bill last night is invited on television to complain about what a dangerous anti-American spendthrift Barack Obama is.

A week?  More like not even 8 hours.
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« Reply #283 on: October 17, 2013, 01:07:36 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on October 17, 2013, 11:59:29 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on October 17, 2013, 10:47:45 AM

Here, I doubt we'll have to wait a full week before one of the 144 Republicans who voted against the bill last night is invited on television to complain about what a dangerous anti-American spendthrift Barack Obama is.

A week?  More like not even 8 hours.

Oh. My. God. I think my IQ dropped 10 points just reading that. How the hell can he write all that with any shred of journalistic integrity? I think hey may be the living embodiment of False Equivalency.
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« Reply #284 on: October 17, 2013, 02:45:14 PM »

I blame the Freemasons!
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« Reply #285 on: October 17, 2013, 04:32:02 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on October 17, 2013, 02:45:14 PM

I blame the Freemasons!

0_o

I...uh....wh.....wtf was that?!
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« Reply #286 on: October 17, 2013, 07:40:59 PM »

Doh!

Quote
sources confirmed today that the GOP yielded its fight against Obamacare mere moments before the president was about to cave and repeal the entire law. “Whew! That was a close one,” President Obama told reporters
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« Reply #287 on: October 17, 2013, 07:54:18 PM »

oh SNAP.

Obama to GOP: 'Win an election' to change policies.
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« Reply #288 on: October 17, 2013, 09:34:46 PM »

The full quote:

Quote
"To all my friends in Congress, understand that how business is done in this town has to change," he said.

"You don't like a particular policy or a particular president? Then argue for your position. Go out there and win an election," The president said. "But don't break it.”

And he's absolutely right.
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« Reply #289 on: October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM »

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.
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« Reply #290 on: October 18, 2013, 12:49:42 AM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on October 17, 2013, 04:32:02 PM

Quote from: Moliere on October 17, 2013, 02:45:14 PM

I blame the Freemasons!

0_o

I...uh....wh.....wtf was that?!

Apparently the Holy Ghost has been waking her up in the middle of the night for the last 2.5 weeks to convince her to do that.  I expect her to make an appearance on Fox and Friends before the year is out.  I would say the month, but she's currently being held for psychiatric evaluation.
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« Reply #291 on: October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.

So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.
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« Reply #292 on: October 18, 2013, 04:03:13 AM »

For reference, the Tea Party Caucus has 47 Rep members.  This represents 10.8% of the total House members and 20.25% of the Republican majority.
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« Reply #293 on: October 18, 2013, 04:06:45 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.
The Republican Party has, yes. The tea party wing has not. The ongoing fiscal crises are about them trying to hijack the party's agenda.

I don't think they're going to be able to reconcile. Polarization is getting worse, not better. The tail is wagging the dog. Ultimately they're going to split. In the short term that will be a godsend for the Democrats. In the long term, the Republicans will be a stronger party after they purge the extremists. The (formal) Tea Party will become a regional power with little federal presence.

I think losing the White House in 2016 will be the straw that breaks the elephant's back.
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« Reply #294 on: October 18, 2013, 06:11:51 AM »

Who is it that chooses SCOTUS judges? At this rate in 20 years it won't be 5-4 any more, it'll be more like 7-2. America will have the most liberal supreme court in the world!
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« Reply #295 on: October 18, 2013, 10:34:43 AM »

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.


So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.


This is exactly right.  I think it's very important for everyone to understand that the last-second bill to raise the debt ceiling and reopen the federal government was not some new piece of daring bipartisan compromise forged by strong leaders or tough negotiating tactics.  It is exactly the clean CR that could have passed the House of Representatives weeks ago if John Boehner had simply allowed it to come up for a vote.

Similarly, House Republicans could have joined with the Democrats to push through a discharge petition and force a vote over Boehner's objections.  They chose not to.  In fact, they worked to *increase* their leadership's ability to block any votes on the eve of the shutdown.

Quote from: Talking Points Memo
In other words, if the House and Senate are gridlocked as they were on the eve of the shutdown, any motion from any member to end that gridlock should be allowed to proceed. Like, for example, a motion to vote on the Senate bill. That's how House Democrats read it.

But the House Rules Committee voted the night of Sept. 30 to change that rule for this specific bill. They added language dictating that any motion "may be offered only by the majority Leader or his designee."

So unless House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-VA) wanted the Senate spending bill to come to the floor, it wasn't going to happen. And it didn't.


Republicans added $20 billion dollars to the deficit for this year, damaging the outlook for millions of poor and middle class Americans, for absolutely no reason.  It might have been some tiny minority within the party that really wanted to see the country burn, but let's not fool ourselves into believing the GOP wasn't organizing shifts to help spray around the gasoline.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #296 on: October 18, 2013, 12:06:49 PM »

1. There were more than just TP republicans that decided to oppose the CR.
2. A vast majority of them supported the agenda they were pursuing, just not this approach.
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« Reply #297 on: October 18, 2013, 02:23:27 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.

So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.

No it means if Obama wants his policies to be passed with no questioning and no opposition his side needs to win more elections.   Until that happens he can't just get whatever he wants 100% of the time.
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« Reply #298 on: October 18, 2013, 02:29:47 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 02:23:27 PM

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.

So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.

No it means if Obama wants his policies to be passed with no questioning and no opposition his side needs to win more elections.   Until that happens he can't just get whatever he wants 100% of the time.

And he didn't, in this case. He effectively got the compromise he and the Democratic Senate offered three weeks ago.
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« Reply #299 on: October 18, 2013, 11:01:53 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 02:23:27 PM

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.

So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.

No it means if Obama wants his policies to be passed with no questioning and no opposition his side needs to win more elections.   Until that happens he can't just get whatever he wants 100% of the time.

I don't understand why you think he does. Healthcare reform was already compromised on and voted into law. What happened in the last 2 weeks is not how things should be done just because they couldn't get their way. But we have gone over this over and over in this thread. If tables were reversed and the dems did this you would scream foul. I have yet to see the Dems go that far though.
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« Reply #300 on: October 18, 2013, 11:10:05 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 11:01:53 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 02:23:27 PM

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.

So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.

No it means if Obama wants his policies to be passed with no questioning and no opposition his side needs to win more elections.   Until that happens he can't just get whatever he wants 100% of the time.

I don't understand why you think he does. Healthcare reform was already compromised on and voted into law. What happened in the last 2 weeks is not how things should be done just because they couldn't get their way. But we have gone over this over and over in this thread. If tables were reversed and the dems did this you would scream foul. I have yet to see the Dems go that far though.

You obviously haven't read any of this thread then I have said over and over the tactics being used by the republicans are wrong and they should never have been playing chicken with the world economy like they did.    The overall goal, to repeal Obamacare, is a good one as it is in most parts a horrible plan, but there are legitimate ways to try and reach that goal, the ways they tried this time are not ones that should ever be used.
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Lee
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« Reply #301 on: October 18, 2013, 11:39:30 PM »

I have read it but your last comment seemed like a strange thing to say.
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« Reply #302 on: October 19, 2013, 01:06:18 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 02:23:27 PM

Quote from: Lee on October 18, 2013, 03:10:41 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on October 18, 2013, 12:45:57 AM

Well in our system of government they HAVE won enough elections to control part of government.


So that means it is no longer majority rules? I understand what you are saying, but winning the House doesn't mean they can just do as they wish. Anyway, the House seemed to be frozen by inaction after a few members that the majority did not support  went nuts because they didn't want to go against their own party. In the end the House decided not to vote because the vote wouldn't go the way of the vocal few.


No it means if Obama wants his policies to be passed with no questioning and no opposition his side needs to win more elections.   Until that happens he can't just get whatever he wants 100% of the time.


Why not?

In this case, the things President Obama wanted was for congress to raise the debt ceiling so the country would not default on its debt, and a Continuing Resolution so the government would not shut down, damage the economy, and add billions of dollars to the deficit?  Why shouldn't he have gotten 100% of what he wanted when it was all in the best interests of the country?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #303 on: October 19, 2013, 01:37:09 AM »

I think Brettmcd just agreed with you guys on the methods being wrong. What else were you looking for?
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« Reply #304 on: October 19, 2013, 01:40:36 AM »

Quote from: Purge on October 19, 2013, 01:37:09 AM

I think Brettmcd just agreed with you guys on the methods being wrong. What else were you looking for?

The part where he dogged on Obama for no reason. Thought it was out of place with his other comments.
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« Reply #305 on: October 19, 2013, 01:43:44 AM »

Not with his M.O. though ... I just thought that was seasoning. slywink
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« Reply #306 on: October 19, 2013, 01:47:58 AM »

reason?  this is no place for reason!
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« Reply #307 on: October 19, 2013, 04:26:59 AM »

Quote from: Lee on October 19, 2013, 01:40:36 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 19, 2013, 01:37:09 AM

I think Brettmcd just agreed with you guys on the methods being wrong. What else were you looking for?

The part where he dogged on Obama for no reason. Thought it was out of place with his other comments.

No not for no reason, a recurring theme with Obama is that he thinks the opposition should just shut up and do what he wants.   Also on this specific issue he is a massive hypocrite, as when he was a senator and Bush was president he said this.

Quote
The fact that we're here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. Leadership means 'The buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better. I therefore intend to oppose the effort to increase America's debt limit.

But now that he is president things are of course different and people who opposed raising the debt ceiling are terrorists and all that.
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« Reply #308 on: October 19, 2013, 08:13:54 AM »

But he has plausible deniability - the current state of affairs isn't just his own work, it's the work of Bush.
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« Reply #309 on: October 19, 2013, 10:56:54 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 19, 2013, 04:26:59 AM

Quote from: Lee on October 19, 2013, 01:40:36 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 19, 2013, 01:37:09 AM

I think Brettmcd just agreed with you guys on the methods being wrong. What else were you looking for?

The part where he dogged on Obama for no reason. Thought it was out of place with his other comments.

No not for no reason, a recurring theme with Obama is that he thinks the opposition should just shut up and do what he wants.   Also on this specific issue he is a massive hypocrite, as when he was a senator and Bush was president he said this.


I really don't understand what you mean here. What is he was supposed to do, come out and beg? Be wishy-washy in his speeches? How does he act differently than any other president (politician) in this area? He easily got re-elected, and some of the bills, like healthcare reform have strong support from the people. Your argument comes across as just not liking the man so you are coming up with things to complain about.

As far as being a hypocrite, yeah, he has been, but that is commonplace in politics. Watch The Daily Show for numerous examples from both sides.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 10:59:34 AM by Lee » Logged
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« Reply #310 on: October 19, 2013, 01:17:30 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on October 19, 2013, 04:26:59 AM

Quote from: Lee on October 19, 2013, 01:40:36 AM

Quote from: Purge on October 19, 2013, 01:37:09 AM

I think Brettmcd just agreed with you guys on the methods being wrong. What else were you looking for?

The part where he dogged on Obama for no reason. Thought it was out of place with his other comments.

No not for no reason, a recurring theme with Obama is that he thinks the opposition should just shut up and do what he wants.


A statement so sweeping and vague, surely you'll have no trouble providing some reasonable examples.

I mean, if someone wanted to point out how you're *still* dead wrong about this, he or she could start with,

Quote from: Reality
A recurring theme with Obama is that he opens negotiations with Republicans by asking for their ideas on how to address an issue and incorporates their ideas into the proposed legislation, only to have the Republicans unanimously oppose the idea and start making more demands.


...and examples would include well-documented debates over health care reform, immigration reform, and budget negotiations over the last four years.  How the individual mandate and the DREAM Act were actually widely popular Republican-backed proposals until Obama offered to make them laws -- that sort of thing.  I mean, the Sequestration cuts we've got sapping our economic recovery right this moment are the direct result of Obama attempting to negotiate with Republicans, offering them 10:1 spending cuts over revenue increases and they still refused to deal.

So how about it, brettmcd?  What are some of your examples of President Obama telling the opposition to just shut up and do what he wants?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #311 on: October 19, 2013, 01:33:02 PM »

Quote from: Purge on October 19, 2013, 01:37:09 AM

I think Brettmcd just agreed with you guys on the methods being wrong. What else were you looking for?


brettmcd says the methods are wrong, but the goal is laudable and Republicans just need to pursue other avenues to achieve it.  This ignores two critical points:

1) There actually aren't any other avenues to achieve it -- Republicans have tried them all and failed.

2) brettmcd either cannot or will not provide any reasons *why* repealing the ACA is such an important goal.  It's going to wreck the economy -- moreso than the Republicans' active sabotage of the economy, apparently -- but he can't specify how that's going to happen.  It's going to strip away the sweetheart deal he gets on insurance from his own employer...a deal that would somehow have been immune from the skyrocketing healthcare costs that have been stripping away employer-based insurance plans across the country for decades.

He also seems to have this weird idea that politics is about having one side vehemently oppose the other at (almost) any cost.  I would submit that the actual goal is to strengthen the country and improve the quality of life for its citizens, and that "stopping Obama from getting what he wants 100% of the time!" is not a rational or patriotic way to run a government.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #312 on: October 19, 2013, 02:51:56 PM »

Norwegian politics are starting to appear almost child-like compared to this shit. We had a new Storting with a new Prime Minister installed this Wednesday, marked by the previous Storting presenting its state budget. This is our equivalent to having a new president take his place the White House. Our new Storting is formed by a coalition of two parties operating as a minority, but with a public agreement to cooperate with two other, minor parties in order to present a functional majority in most cases.

The funny this is that the state budget that previous PM presented consists of several really important things that their opposition has been fighting for. Everyone, from the politicians to the media, were surprised by this suspiciously friendly move. Not only that, but by tradition there's no shit-smearing during this transitional period by anyone (except the media, which thrives on digging up skeletons and closets during this time).

Of course, the real agenda was probably to take credit for some of the more popular goals the new government is likely to implement anyway, but hey, if this is the worst our politicians will do, I can live with that. slywink

Btw, our new government is probably as close to the Republic party we've ever had in my lifetime (minus the religious fanaticism which we only have in a pretty minor party), and you guys would probably still call it liberal. Tongue
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 02:54:13 PM by TiLT » Logged
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« Reply #313 on: November 04, 2013, 10:05:08 AM »

I bet the sequel sucks. Nothing is ever better the second time around.
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« Reply #314 on: November 04, 2013, 02:21:21 PM »

Quote from: Harpua3 on November 04, 2013, 10:05:08 AM

I bet the sequel sucks. Nothing is ever better the second time around.

Aliens, Empire Strikes Back, Mad Max 2, Star Trek 2, The Dark Knight...
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« Reply #315 on: November 04, 2013, 03:52:55 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on November 04, 2013, 02:21:21 PM

Quote from: Harpua3 on November 04, 2013, 10:05:08 AM

I bet the sequel sucks. Nothing is ever better the second time around.

Aliens, Empire Strikes Back, Mad Max 2, Star Trek 2, The Dark Knight...

Godfather 2, Terminator 2, Evil Dead 2, X2, Spider-Man 2, Superman 2, Toy Story 2.....
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« Reply #316 on: November 04, 2013, 05:01:42 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on November 04, 2013, 03:52:55 PM

Quote from: Moliere on November 04, 2013, 02:21:21 PM

Quote from: Harpua3 on November 04, 2013, 10:05:08 AM

I bet the sequel sucks. Nothing is ever better the second time around.

Aliens, Empire Strikes Back, Mad Max 2, Star Trek 2, The Dark Knight...

Godfather 2, Terminator 2, Evil Dead 2, X2, Spider-Man 2, Superman 2, Toy Story 2.....

Not sure about G2 and T2. The second Terminator had better special effects, but the story wasn't better.
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« Reply #317 on: November 04, 2013, 06:44:18 PM »

Effects of the potential sequel are already being felt.  I had a client cancel a bunch of December training programs this morning...they've been instructed by Senior Leadership to hold all "non essential" funds until they figure out what's going to happen January. 
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