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Author Topic: It's official: Obama Vs McCain. Coming this November '08  (Read 9731 times)
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« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2008, 04:49:50 PM »

You're going to vote for the person who you think holds your best interests closest to them, not because "yuu dun luk liek em". Your use of a gross generalization to justify Obama's popularity is totally unfounded. Do you think the hispanic community voted for Hillary because she's spanish? What about black republicans? Ooo, they must be staying up nights biting their nails... political alignment, or the one who is the same colour as me?

Most of the black people I know are indistinguishable over the phone over any other north american. The only black people I know who ARE distinguished is because they had immigrated from another country and their accent is clear. Does that make their words and decisions on who they want leading their country any less valid?

I don't know if this was where you meant your comment to go, but by making that statement you've thrown weight behind the idea that the black folk don't matter; it's a foregone conclusion that they will vote for the black man over the white man. Their opinions and feelings on the different topics is unimportant; getting a black president is their singular purpose.

Perhaps you are right; it should be the will and intent of every white person to stop that from happening. Think of what he could do! He might just start unjst wars with other countries, and maybe completely ignore the screams and wails of his constituents simply because he can! Remind me again, how does that differ from what you have now?
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« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2008, 05:00:58 PM »

cheeba, you forgot to answer my question.  I'll try again:

When you claim that "black people all vote for Barack Obama because he looks like them", you're holding out a large segment of the American population and making some shocking assumptions about their values, familiarity with foreign and domestic policies, and even their capacity for rational thought, all based solely on the color of their skin.

I would like to hear how you explain Barack Obama's popularity among other segments of the population.  Are non-blacks smart or knowledgable enough to find his political platform appealing?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2008, 05:01:56 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 05, 2008, 05:00:58 PM

I would like to hear how you explain Barack Obama's popularity among other segments of the population.  Are non-blacks smart or knowledgable enough to find his political platform appealing?
Not Oregonians.
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« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2008, 05:02:44 PM »

But seriously now. When someone comes here who understands sarcasm, I'll be happy to not be a smart ass to them.
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« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2008, 05:05:29 PM »

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So make sure you understand the difference next time.

The implication was there. Also, I don't care to be lectured like a 5-year old who doesn't know the difference between borrowing and stealing. Save your condescension for someone who will actually put up with it, because I won't.
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« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2008, 05:09:24 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 05, 2008, 03:40:21 PM

Note I didn't say it wouldn't be...but it shouldn't have any place in the campaign.  

There's a difference between being delusional and idealistic (and realistic).  

Delusional = race isn't an issue.
Idealistic = race shouldn't be an issue.
Realistic = race shouldn't be an issue, but will be.

Well I agree with you one hundred percent, then.
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« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2008, 05:43:26 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on June 05, 2008, 05:02:44 PM

When someone comes here who understands sarcasm, I'll be happy to not be a smart ass to them.

Exactly which part of "Yes, and black people all voting for Obama because he looks like them is completely shallow" contains the sarcasm?

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« Reply #87 on: June 05, 2008, 05:45:59 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 05, 2008, 05:05:29 PM

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So make sure you understand the difference next time.

The implication was there. Also, I don't care to be lectured like a 5-year old who doesn't know the difference between borrowing and stealing. Save your condescension for someone who will actually put up with it, because I won't.

You obvious don't know the difference and now you're acting like like a petulant 5 year old when corrected.  So if you don't like it, too bad - that's your problem, not mine.  I don't really give a hoot.
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« Reply #88 on: June 05, 2008, 05:50:58 PM »

Now that the can-o-worms has being opened, I'll rephrase it and see if anyone can agree to this....

"Yes, and all the black people voting for Obama because he looks like them is completely shallow."
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« Reply #89 on: June 05, 2008, 05:52:35 PM »

Quote from: Booner on June 05, 2008, 05:50:58 PM

Now that the can-o-worms has being opened, I'll rephrase it and see if anyone can agree to this....

"Yes, and all the black people voting for Obama because he looks like them is are completely shallow."

Grammar police!   smile
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« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2008, 05:59:09 PM »

saywhat

Nicely done....dissenter.  icon_lol
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« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2008, 06:18:37 PM »

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You obvious don't know the difference and now you're acting like like a petulant 5 year old when corrected.

The difference between what? A cheap shot calling someone a racist, or a cheap shot implying someone is a racist? There's not a whole lot of difference there - the end result is the same. You got called out on it, and now you're backpedaling to try to turn it into some innocent hypothetical question you were asking.

But whatever, I don't think you have a whole lot of supporters in this thread anyway, so there's not much use in kicking you while you're down.
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« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2008, 06:33:59 PM »

As an Obama supporter, I think it is valid to suggest that ONE of the reasons he is getting such a big portion of the black voters is because he is also black. To deny this is the equivalent of closing your eyes, covering your ears, and shouting "NO,NO,NO,NO,NO" over and over again in denial.

At the same time, this does not mean that this is the ONLY reason people are voting for him. Clearly, there are numerous qualities that make him a desirable candidate. I would imagine that the percentage of people who vote for Obama, and that his skin color is their #1 reason for voting for him, would be very low in comparison to other reasons to voting for him.
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« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2008, 06:36:21 PM »

There are plenty of people who will vote for Obama because of his race. And there are plenty of people who will not vote for Obama because of his race.  No big surprise there.  It is what it is.  As foolish as it sounds today, there there were the same feelings about JFK being a Catholic in 1960.  Hopefully 50 years from now if a black man is running for president, talking about his race will sound as silly as talking about Kennedy's religion sounds today.  But anyone who thinks race will not be a factor in this year's election is naive.
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« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2008, 06:42:21 PM »

Quote from: msteelers on June 05, 2008, 06:33:59 PM

Clearly, there are numerous qualities that make him a desirable candidate. I would imagine that the percentage of people who vote for Obama, and that his skin color is their #1 reason for voting for him, would be very low in comparison to other reasons to voting for him.

I'll be expansive and say that I think that people vote for candidates that, to them, understand and value their personal experience as Americans.  We obviously have a long history of racism in this country, and as a consequence, African Americans may want, in part, to vote for someone who has experienced those issues firsthand.  It's not, as small-minded people might think, because he "looks like them" - it's because he's lived like them.
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« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2008, 06:55:46 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 06:42:21 PM

I'll be expansive and say that I think that people vote for candidates that, to them, understand and value their personal experience as Americans.  We obviously have a long history of racism in this country, and as a consequence, African Americans may want, in part, to vote for someone who has experienced those issues firsthand.  It's not, as small-minded people might think, because he "looks like them" - it's because he's lived like them.
Thanks for speaking on behalf of all black people, Brendan. I'm sure someone with your bleeding heart understands exactly what they've gone through and exactly why they will vote however they vote.

There are black people who will vote for Obama solely because he is black. If you're going to whine about wanting to shame whites who will not vote for Obama because he is black you have to at least acknowledge that racism is not a republican thing or a democrat thing, but rather a human thing.
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« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2008, 06:56:13 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 06:42:21 PM

Quote from: msteelers on June 05, 2008, 06:33:59 PM

Clearly, there are numerous qualities that make him a desirable candidate. I would imagine that the percentage of people who vote for Obama, and that his skin color is their #1 reason for voting for him, would be very low in comparison to other reasons to voting for him.

I'll be expansive and say that I think that people vote for candidates that, to them, understand and value their personal experience as Americans.  We obviously have a long history of racism in this country, and as a consequence, African Americans may want, in part, to vote for someone who has experienced those issues firsthand.  It's not, as small-minded people might think, because he "looks like them" - it's because he's lived like them.

So do you acknowledge that it is possible for people to vote against Obama because they are racist.  And if so, you don't think it is possible for the opposite to be true?  Don't you think there will be people who vote for him solely because of race?  It has nothing to do with a "shared living experience."  As much as you would like to think that.

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« Reply #97 on: June 05, 2008, 07:00:44 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on June 05, 2008, 06:56:13 PM

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 06:42:21 PM

Quote from: msteelers on June 05, 2008, 06:33:59 PM

Clearly, there are numerous qualities that make him a desirable candidate. I would imagine that the percentage of people who vote for Obama, and that his skin color is their #1 reason for voting for him, would be very low in comparison to other reasons to voting for him.

I'll be expansive and say that I think that people vote for candidates that, to them, understand and value their personal experience as Americans.  We obviously have a long history of racism in this country, and as a consequence, African Americans may want, in part, to vote for someone who has experienced those issues firsthand.  It's not, as small-minded people might think, because he "looks like them" - it's because he's lived like them.

So do you acknowledge that it is possible for people to vote against Obama because they are racist.  And if so, you don't think it is possible for the opposite to be true?  Don't you think there will be people who vote for him solely because of race?  It has nothing to do with a "shared living experience."  As much as you would like to think that.



Quit being so 'small-minded'. slywink
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« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2008, 07:01:27 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 05, 2008, 06:18:37 PM

stuff

Yea, I suppose you could read that there was an implication if you had a guilty conscience about being a closet bigot.



















Now that's an implication.    nod
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« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2008, 07:05:35 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 05, 2008, 06:18:37 PM

I don't think you have a whole lot of supporters in this thread anyway

We're supposed to gain supporters?

Man - I've been doing it all wrong.
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« Reply #100 on: June 05, 2008, 07:06:04 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on June 05, 2008, 06:36:21 PM

There are plenty of people who will vote for Obama because of his race. And there are plenty of people who will not vote for Obama because of his race.  No big surprise there.  It is what it is.  As foolish as it sounds today, there there were the same feelings about JFK being a Catholic in 1960.  Hopefully 50 years from now if a black man is running for president, talking about his race will sound as silly as talking about Kennedy's religion sounds today.  But anyone who thinks race will not be a factor in this year's election is naive.

Well put. Unfortunately though, that isn't that foolish today. I remember seeing a poll done where over half of the country would NOT vote for a person, even if they were well qualified, simply because they are an atheist.

I can't find the poll itself, but here is an article that references the poll.

Quote
A Gallup poll in 1999 asked American voters the following question: "If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be an X would you vote for that person?" X took on the following values: Catholic, Jew, Baptist, Mormon, black, homosexual, woman, atheist. Six out of the eight categories secured better than 90 percent approval. But only 59 percent would vote for a homosexual, and just 49 percent would vote for an atheist. Bear in mind that there are 29 million Americans who describe themselves as nonreligious, secular, atheist, or agnostic, outnumbering Jews tenfold and all other religions except Christianity by an even larger margin.
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« Reply #101 on: June 05, 2008, 07:07:48 PM »

Quote from: msteelers on June 05, 2008, 07:06:04 PM

Well put. Unfortunately though, that isn't that foolish today. I remember seeing a poll done where over half of the country would NOT vote for a person, even if they were well qualified, simply because they are an atheist.
Well at least atheists are ahead of muslims slywink.
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« Reply #102 on: June 05, 2008, 08:49:27 PM »

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simply because they are an atheist.
God, I'd vote for an Atheist in a heart beat.  Somebody please stop the religious folk from ruling this country!
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« Reply #103 on: June 05, 2008, 08:59:25 PM »

Quote from: msteelers on June 05, 2008, 07:06:04 PM

Well put. Unfortunately though, that isn't that foolish today. I remember seeing a poll done where over half of the country would NOT vote for a person, even if they were well qualified, simply because they are an atheist.

I can't find the poll itself, but here is an article that references the poll.

Here's a 2007 version by Pew.  Page 23.  Highest preference is in favor of evangelical christians (19% more likely to vote for).  Highest dislike is for atheists  (61% less likely to vote for).
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« Reply #104 on: June 05, 2008, 09:32:53 PM »

Thanks for the link Brendan!

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on June 05, 2008, 08:49:27 PM

Quote
simply because they are an atheist.
God, I'd vote for an Atheist in a heart beat.  Somebody please stop the religious folk from ruling this country!

Not going to happen. The study Brendan linked to has the question "Itís important to me that a president have strong religious beliefs. Do you completely agree, mostly agree, mostly DISagree, or completely DISagree with it?" 69% agreed with the statement, while 27% disagreed with it in some way.
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« Reply #105 on: June 05, 2008, 10:59:46 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on June 05, 2008, 05:01:56 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on June 05, 2008, 05:00:58 PM

I would like to hear how you explain Barack Obama's popularity among other segments of the population.  Are non-blacks smart or knowledgable enough to find his political platform appealing?
Not Oregonians.

 eek icon_mad crybaby

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« Reply #106 on: June 05, 2008, 11:32:02 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 05, 2008, 12:23:41 PM

Quote from: msduncan on June 05, 2008, 11:20:02 AM

You don't have to make up BS on this guy.   He's got an extremely liberal record in the Illinois senate, and he did all sorts of ultra cool stuff they can use back in the 1970s.

Any why can't the old rules apply, because he's black?

It'll be interesting to see what the neocons can throw at Obama.  I figure any substantial dirt would be uncovered by the Clinton political machine.  They're not known for playing nice, so if there was a major skelley in the closet, they would have found it.

Who said anything about race?  Or is that all you see when you look at him?

A month or so ago you called me a bigot.   Now you are inferring I'm a racist.    I'm really not sure why other posters bother to discuss anything with you at all.   You can go to Hell.
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« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2008, 11:37:19 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 04:16:09 PM

The problem with my premise is not that I want people to be shamed - it's that I'm optimistic that the people who say stupid things are capable of feeling shame.  Statements like black people vote for Obama "because he looks like them" deserve to be mocked and excoriated.

Contrary to what others might try to portray here.... the fact that he is black and I can empathize with all the african americans I work with in their desire to have the ultimate barrier broken down makes me (I can't speak for all Republicans) extremely sympathetic and wishing that he was more centric so I could get behind what could be an amazing moment in our country's history.    I can't do this because of his positions and his orientation on the political spectrum.     If he does win I will be glued to the TV on inaguration day, however, as we witness a great moment in our history.
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« Reply #108 on: June 05, 2008, 11:53:08 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 05, 2008, 11:32:02 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 05, 2008, 12:23:41 PM

Quote from: msduncan on June 05, 2008, 11:20:02 AM

You don't have to make up BS on this guy.   He's got an extremely liberal record in the Illinois senate, and he did all sorts of ultra cool stuff they can use back in the 1970s.

Any why can't the old rules apply, because he's black?

It'll be interesting to see what the neocons can throw at Obama.  I figure any substantial dirt would be uncovered by the Clinton political machine.  They're not known for playing nice, so if there was a major skelley in the closet, they would have found it.

Who said anything about race?  Or is that all you see when you look at him?

A month or so ago you called me a bigot.   Now you are inferring I'm a racist.    I'm really not sure why other posters bother to discuss anything with you at all.   You can go to Hell.

Let's give him a big hand, Ladies and Gentlemen! 

And he still can't explain why he played the race card...though at this point, I suppose it's obvious.
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« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2008, 11:55:01 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 05, 2008, 11:53:08 PM

And he still can't explain why he played the race card...though at this point, I suppose it's obvious.

As obvious as you being a troll?
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« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2008, 11:59:06 PM »

Quote from: CSL on June 05, 2008, 11:55:01 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on June 05, 2008, 11:53:08 PM

And he still can't explain why he played the race card...though at this point, I suppose it's obvious.

As obvious as you being a troll?

Wow, another personal attack!  Do you enjoy following me around or is stalking something new for you?
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« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2008, 12:18:56 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 05, 2008, 11:59:06 PM

Do you enjoy following me around or is stalking something new for you?

Maybe half a dozen active political threads, maybe twice that number of regular posters on these political discussions and you're surprised that there is some overlap when it comes to responses?
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« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2008, 12:22:41 AM »

Quote from: Purge on June 04, 2008, 01:37:28 PM

You know what this discussion needs? Unbreakable. slywink


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« Reply #113 on: June 06, 2008, 01:10:48 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on June 05, 2008, 11:20:02 AM

You don't have to make up BS on this guy.   He's got an extremely liberal record in the Illinois senate, and he did all sorts of ultra cool stuff they can use back in the 1970s.
You are right...a party could just do a stand up fight on the facts but I don't think that's going to happen. I hope Republicans prove me wrong but in the meantime, where are emails on Obama the AntiChrist/Muslim/swearing in with a Koran/(add your own horrific untruth here) coming from?  I don't get emails like that on McCain. Ever.  Maybe Democrats are lazy and unimaginative when it comes to chain emails. 

As the the Extreme Liberal label, I'll let Karl Rove hit this point for you.  Here he discusses the Republicans losses in recent special elections.
Quote
Both of those losses can be attributed to bad candidates. But that only shows the GOP can't take "safe" seats for granted when Democrats run conservatives who distance themselves from their national party leaders. The string of defeats should cure Republicans of the habit of simply shouting "liberal! liberal! liberal!" in hopes of winning an election. They need to press a reform agenda full of sharp contrasts with the Democrats.
As to the ultra cool stuff Obama did back in the 1970s, past drug use and alcohol abuse didn't slow down the Bush Express.   

 
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« Reply #114 on: June 06, 2008, 02:06:50 AM »

Quote from: helot2000 on June 06, 2008, 01:10:48 AM

Quote from: msduncan on June 05, 2008, 11:20:02 AM

You don't have to make up BS on this guy.   He's got an extremely liberal record in the Illinois senate, and he did all sorts of ultra cool stuff they can use back in the 1970s.
You are right...a party could just do a stand up fight on the facts but I don't think that's going to happen. I hope Republicans prove me wrong but in the meantime, where are emails on Obama the AntiChrist/Muslim/swearing in with a Koran/(add your own horrific untruth here) coming from?  I don't get emails like that on McCain. Ever.  Maybe Democrats are lazy and unimaginative when it comes to chain emails. 

As the the Extreme Liberal label, I'll let Karl Rove hit this point for you.  Here he discusses the Republicans losses in recent special elections.
Quote
Both of those losses can be attributed to bad candidates. But that only shows the GOP can't take "safe" seats for granted when Democrats run conservatives who distance themselves from their national party leaders. The string of defeats should cure Republicans of the habit of simply shouting "liberal! liberal! liberal!" in hopes of winning an election. They need to press a reform agenda full of sharp contrasts with the Democrats.
As to the ultra cool stuff Obama did back in the 1970s, past drug use and alcohol abuse didn't slow down the Bush Express.   

 


Oh I 100% agree with you.   Newt Gringrich has been screaming this for months.    Republicans needed (probably a year ago) to throw everything out and revamp the party message and direction.   And by that I'm not talking about leaning to the middle or left.   I'm talking about going fiscal conservative again, having clear messages like Newt crafted in 1994.   All of that.   

To be honest they should have never abandoned that message, but they got comfortable in Washington and thus caught a terrible case of the pork bug.    In addition they got their priorities screwed up and started clamoring all over each other for social issues instead of doing things like cutting spending to fund the existing tax reductions.    Revamping the entire tax code.     Figuring out how to reign in health care costs and everything associated with it.    Perhaps the most important thing -- getting ahead of the curve on this gasoline problem we are in right now (something all admins for decades are guilty of not doing).

As for the drugs and alcohol.   I'm not nessesarily talking about that.   I'm talking about his supposed links to controversial groups.     He did the smart thing and already came clean about drugs and alcohol so it's a non-issue.  (it's always been a non-issue to me anyway no matter if it was Clinton or Bush)
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« Reply #115 on: June 06, 2008, 03:34:32 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 05, 2008, 06:42:21 PM

I'll be expansive and say that I think that people vote for candidates that, to them, understand and value their personal experience as Americans.  We obviously have a long history of racism in this country, and as a consequence, African Americans may want, in part, to vote for someone who has experienced those issues firsthand.  It's not, as small-minded people might think, because he "looks like them" - it's because he's lived like them.

Doesn't anyone remember when african-americans weren't voting for him because he wasn't "black" enough

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« Reply #116 on: June 06, 2008, 12:37:41 PM »

African Americans voting for the African American candidate, Mormons voting for the Mormon candidate, women voting for the female candidate, Baptists voting for the Baptist candidate, Southerners voting for the southern candidate, aged people voting for the old candidate, Christian Conservatives voting for the Christian Conservatives.  Iím still looking for something new, interesting or revealing in these trends.  I think the proper word for it is not racism but tribalism.
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