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Author Topic: how come we're not attacking syria?  (Read 9634 times)
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raydude
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« Reply #200 on: September 04, 2013, 01:28:27 PM »

Quote from: Rip on September 01, 2013, 01:02:25 PM

Quote from: Canuck on September 01, 2013, 08:35:22 AM

I think  Obama is probably happy to have passed the buck. He's probably not looking forward to something that he is pushing being rejected but if it is then he can say his hands are tied. Win/win for Obama.

and a lose/lose for America.

Wait, I'm confused. So if he attacks without consulting Congress it's Obama's fault. If he consults Congress but still attacks it's Obama's fault. If he doesn't attack without consulting Congress it's Obama's fault. If he doesn't attack because of Congress it's Obama's fault. Sounds like someone has a case of 'I just don't like Obama'.
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« Reply #201 on: September 04, 2013, 02:15:21 PM »

Quote from: Reemul on September 04, 2013, 07:52:10 AM

Well us Brits said no and that really is how the majority feel. We definitely want some form of punishment for the use of chemical weapons however the always us seems to have run its course.

There are many nations in the world and many who could step up and deal with it yet they don't. It seems the US feel they have to when they don't, where is the rest of the world in this.

It is about time other nations of the world got involved in these issues.

I agree.  The rest of the world knows we will, and they're happy to let us take the expense, the risk, and the heat, and then bitch at us for intervening if things go wrong.  It's their turn.  Then again, I'm not sure I want to bet the Geneva Convention on making that point.
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« Reply #202 on: September 04, 2013, 03:22:29 PM »

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the President does not have the power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.

Spoiler for Hiden:
Obama 2007
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« Reply #203 on: September 04, 2013, 03:53:10 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on September 04, 2013, 03:22:29 PM

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the President does not have the power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.

Spoiler for Hiden:
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I agree with that statement - which is why our intervention in Libya pissed me off so much.

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« Reply #204 on: September 04, 2013, 04:08:32 PM »

Quote from: raydude on September 04, 2013, 01:28:27 PM

Quote from: Rip on September 01, 2013, 01:02:25 PM

Quote from: Canuck on September 01, 2013, 08:35:22 AM

I think  Obama is probably happy to have passed the buck. He's probably not looking forward to something that he is pushing being rejected but if it is then he can say his hands are tied. Win/win for Obama.

and a lose/lose for America.

Wait, I'm confused. So if he attacks without consulting Congress it's Obama's fault. If he consults Congress but still attacks it's Obama's fault. If he doesn't attack without consulting Congress it's Obama's fault. If he doesn't attack because of Congress it's Obama's fault. Sounds like someone has a case of 'I just don't like Obama'.

I didn't say anything about Obama's fault. I said lose/lose for America and could give a shit about who is at fault. Anything we do unilaterally in this case is a loss when the dust settles.
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Moliere
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« Reply #205 on: September 04, 2013, 04:23:59 PM »

Quote from: Rip on September 04, 2013, 04:08:32 PM

Anything we do unilaterally in this case is a loss when the dust settles.

Why would it be less so if we had a few token countries supporting our involvement? Even if the rebels win the fighting will continue as they fight amongst each other.
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« Reply #206 on: September 04, 2013, 05:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Rip on September 04, 2013, 04:08:32 PM

Quote from: raydude on September 04, 2013, 01:28:27 PM

Quote from: Rip on September 01, 2013, 01:02:25 PM

Quote from: Canuck on September 01, 2013, 08:35:22 AM

I think  Obama is probably happy to have passed the buck. He's probably not looking forward to something that he is pushing being rejected but if it is then he can say his hands are tied. Win/win for Obama.

and a lose/lose for America.

Wait, I'm confused. So if he attacks without consulting Congress it's Obama's fault. If he consults Congress but still attacks it's Obama's fault. If he doesn't attack without consulting Congress it's Obama's fault. If he doesn't attack because of Congress it's Obama's fault. Sounds like someone has a case of 'I just don't like Obama'.

I didn't say anything about Obama's fault. I said lose/lose for America and could give a shit about who is at fault. Anything we do unilaterally in this case is a loss when the dust settles.

Actually if we do nothing we would not be doing it unilaterally. We would be in company with the Brits and a majority of countries by doing nothing. Hence my confusion that you interpreted a "do nothing" action, such as if Congress said no and Obama said his hands are tied as a "lose/lose".
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« Reply #207 on: September 04, 2013, 09:21:27 PM »

Why would congress say no?  Their pockets are lined with lobby dollars from the defense industry.

It's hopeless man. HOPELESS!





I don't know WTH this picture is of, but it seemed appropriate.

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« Reply #208 on: September 05, 2013, 02:19:02 PM »

Senator Rand Paul: Why I’m Voting No on Syria
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« Reply #209 on: September 05, 2013, 05:07:36 PM »

Putin on Kerry:

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This was very unpleasant and surprising for me. We talk to them (the Americans), and we assume they are decent people, but he is lying and he knows that he is lying. This is sad.

Not sure I'm ready to trust Putin on anything, but I think I might trust him on this. slywink
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« Reply #210 on: September 06, 2013, 12:28:19 AM »

My support is crumbling fast. Not only is it becoming increasingly apparent there is no smoking gun, there are videos coming out of Al-Qaeda-affiliated Syrian rebels using chemical weapons. Time, I think, to take a step back and figure out WTF is going on.
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« Reply #211 on: September 06, 2013, 05:27:35 AM »

new poll with new results.
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« Reply #212 on: September 06, 2013, 07:10:35 AM »

Starting to sound like our rush to war in Iraq over their WMDs.

At lease we have evidence this time around!

Quote
Does anyone really believe the Assad government launched chemical weapons attacks against rebels and civilians?

That virtually every politician and pundit talks about the attacks as if it were proven they occurred and that Assad’s government perpetrated them is beyond surreal. U.N. weapons inspectors say that they won’t even be able to confirm that chemical weapons were used for two more weeks. Yet, the Obama administration says it is not only certain the attack occurred, but that Assad’s government launched it.

This despite strong suspicion that it was the rebels, not the Assad government that launched the chemical weapons attack earlier this year. As reported by Shaun Waterman in the Washington Times on May 6,

“Carla del Ponte, a member of the U.N. Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Syria, told Swiss TV there were “strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof,” that rebels seeking to oust Syrian strongman Bashar al-Assad had used the nerve agent.”

The rebels stood to gain far more from last month’s chemical weapons attack than Assad. The government had the upper hand in the two-year-old revolution. The attack would increase the chances that an outside force like the U.S. would join the struggle on the rebels’ side. Judge Andrew Napolitano is skeptical that the attack occurred at all and, if it did, that Assad perpetrated it.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/reawakening-liberty/2013/sep/6/does-anyone-really-believe-assad-used-chemical-wea/
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« Reply #213 on: September 06, 2013, 07:18:11 AM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on September 06, 2013, 07:10:35 AM

Starting to sound like our rush to war in Iraq over their WMDs.

At lease we have evidence this time around!

Quote
Does anyone really believe the Assad government launched chemical weapons attacks against rebels and civilians?

That virtually every politician and pundit talks about the attacks as if it were proven they occurred and that Assad’s government perpetrated them is beyond surreal. U.N. weapons inspectors say that they won’t even be able to confirm that chemical weapons were used for two more weeks. Yet, the Obama administration says it is not only certain the attack occurred, but that Assad’s government launched it.

This despite strong suspicion that it was the rebels, not the Assad government that launched the chemical weapons attack earlier this year. As reported by Shaun Waterman in the Washington Times on May 6,

“Carla del Ponte, a member of the U.N. Independent International Commission of Inquiry on Syria, told Swiss TV there were “strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof,” that rebels seeking to oust Syrian strongman Bashar al-Assad had used the nerve agent.”

The rebels stood to gain far more from last month’s chemical weapons attack than Assad. The government had the upper hand in the two-year-old revolution. The attack would increase the chances that an outside force like the U.S. would join the struggle on the rebels’ side. Judge Andrew Napolitano is skeptical that the attack occurred at all and, if it did, that Assad perpetrated it.

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/reawakening-liberty/2013/sep/6/does-anyone-really-believe-assad-used-chemical-wea/

If the rebel used chemical weapons, is that going to change the equation again for US? Maybe instead of bombing Assad, US can bomb the rebel instead?
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« Reply #214 on: September 09, 2013, 03:32:48 PM »

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« Reply #215 on: September 09, 2013, 03:38:56 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on September 09, 2013, 03:32:48 PM




I think the lady standing behind Jessica goosed her...
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« Reply #216 on: September 09, 2013, 04:12:10 PM »

well, in his case, we can probably guess why he's been silent.


he's probably just gotten too old for this
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« Reply #217 on: September 09, 2013, 04:58:17 PM »

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« Reply #218 on: September 09, 2013, 06:12:36 PM »

OMG, that pic and caption is bloody brilliant.
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« Reply #219 on: September 09, 2013, 07:38:15 PM »

I think there is a distinction to be drawn between a strike and a war.  Are we at war with Yemen?  We've launched plenty of drone strikes there.  Are we at war with Pakistan?  We assassinated Bin Laden without their knowledge there and have launched tons of drone strikes.  Were we even at war with Libya?

On the other hand - yeah, some of them should say something, but there really is no good answer to Syria, save Russian involvement, which appears to be happening...
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« Reply #220 on: September 09, 2013, 08:30:57 PM »

http://freakoutnation.blogspot.com/2013/09/president-obamas-brilliant-strategy-no.html

Food for thought, eh?
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« Reply #221 on: September 09, 2013, 09:11:12 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on September 09, 2013, 08:30:57 PM


That idea is so last page.

I don't think for one minute that Obama wants to risk a quagmire in Syria. He knows fully well how one limited action leads to another.

The latest news has Assad offering to give up his supply of chemical weapons. That's a great endgame if that's what Obama's belligerent bluster brings.
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« Reply #222 on: September 09, 2013, 10:00:10 PM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on September 09, 2013, 08:30:57 PM


He's doing a lot of reverse psychology then.
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« Reply #223 on: September 09, 2013, 10:14:59 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on September 09, 2013, 09:11:12 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on September 09, 2013, 08:30:57 PM


That idea is so last page.

I don't think for one minute that Obama wants to risk a quagmire in Syria. He knows fully well how one limited action leads to another.

The latest news has Assad offering to give up his supply of chemical weapons. That's a great endgame if that's what Obama's belligerent bluster brings.


Which must be why they are trying to say Kerry was asking a whetorical question and suggesting such is impossible.
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« Reply #224 on: September 10, 2013, 03:02:12 AM »

Quote from: Rip on September 09, 2013, 10:14:59 PM

Quote from: Ironrod on September 09, 2013, 09:11:12 PM

Quote from: th'FOOL on September 09, 2013, 08:30:57 PM


That idea is so last page.

I don't think for one minute that Obama wants to risk a quagmire in Syria. He knows fully well how one limited action leads to another.

The latest news has Assad offering to give up his supply of chemical weapons. That's a great endgame if that's what Obama's belligerent bluster brings.


Which must be why they are trying to say Kerry was asking a whetorical question and suggesting such is impossible.

That Kerry is a wascally wabbit, covering all the bases with his whetorical questions.
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« Reply #225 on: September 10, 2013, 03:22:02 AM »

Quote
Food for thought, eh?

Man, I've seen some defense of shitty Presidential decision-making but that takes the cake. This is a President whose foreign policy numbers are currently at an all-time low - lower even than that time he let an ambassador get killed and drug through the streets. That takes some effort.

Sure, I guess it's possible that he has slyly outwitted the entire country and brilliantly fooled all of us into believing he's just terrible at foreign policy when he's really a tactical genius. I prefer the simpler answer - he truly is terrible at foreign policy and maybe accidentally stumbled into a good outcome because he lacks the leadership to actually make a decision on his own.
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« Reply #226 on: September 10, 2013, 06:26:17 AM »

I don't care if he's an idiot savant if everybody steps back from the brink and Syria gets back to its routine civil war. In fact, at this point I'll only fault Obama if he screws up this graceful exit. 
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« Reply #227 on: September 10, 2013, 08:48:17 AM »

Our President is getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever! Our President is avoiding getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever!
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« Reply #228 on: September 10, 2013, 02:57:54 PM »

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Our President is getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever! Our President is avoiding getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever!

It's nothing to do with "worst President ever." It has everything to do with a series of mistakes by the administration that put us into this situation where either option is bad.

The end result is not going to be an elegant diplomatic solution. It's going to be an ineffective diplomatic solution that only occurred *after* the US appeared to be weak and indecisive. It's pretty much the worst case scenario. Assad gets to delay any international action indefinitely, the Russians look like heroes, the US appears unable to back up its own rhetoric.
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« Reply #229 on: September 10, 2013, 03:44:45 PM »

So weak/indecisive = not blowing shit up? Perhaps getting the best outcome we can given awful circumstances should be the prevailing metric of success rather than some insecure need to throw our weight around. If the goal is to deal with these prohibited chemical weapons, actually seizing them seems much more effective than hoping to 'splode them with bombs or crossing our fingers that our military action deters their future use. Not to mention the lives and money saved by not waging an attack... one that may be clean and quick, but might involve unforeseen escalation.

It strikes me as quite ironic that many of the loudest voices calling Obama naive in his foreign policy are the same that claimed Iraq would greet us as liberators.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 03:46:39 PM by Captain Caveman » Logged
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« Reply #230 on: September 10, 2013, 04:32:18 PM »

If Russia delivers, then they are the heroes and rightfully so. Let them have it. I could not care less. If it keeps us from wasting our money and lives for nothing then I'll be the first to build a Putin statue in downtown DC.

I am skeptical though, that 'Russian control' will be any different than the current situation, but it's better than the US getting dragged into another unnecessary war.
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« Reply #231 on: September 10, 2013, 05:55:17 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on September 10, 2013, 08:48:17 AM

Our President is getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever! Our President is avoiding getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever!

it's almost like he's Microsoft....
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« Reply #232 on: September 10, 2013, 06:35:23 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on September 10, 2013, 02:57:54 PM

Quote
Our President is getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever! Our President is avoiding getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever!

It's nothing to do with "worst President ever." It has everything to do with a series of mistakes by the administration that put us into this situation where either option is bad.

The end result is not going to be an elegant diplomatic solution. It's going to be an ineffective diplomatic solution that only occurred *after* the US appeared to be weak and indecisive. It's pretty much the worst case scenario. Assad gets to delay any international action indefinitely, the Russians look like heroes, the US appears unable to back up its own rhetoric.

I gotta agree with Canuck.  This is textbook "he's not my guy so he can't do anything right" syndrome if ever I saw it.
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« Reply #233 on: September 10, 2013, 06:41:34 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on September 10, 2013, 06:35:23 PM

Quote from: YellowKing on September 10, 2013, 02:57:54 PM

Quote
Our President is getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever! Our President is avoiding getting us into a quagmire in Syria. He's the worst president ever!

It's nothing to do with "worst President ever." It has everything to do with a series of mistakes by the administration that put us into this situation where either option is bad.

The end result is not going to be an elegant diplomatic solution. It's going to be an ineffective diplomatic solution that only occurred *after* the US appeared to be weak and indecisive. It's pretty much the worst case scenario. Assad gets to delay any international action indefinitely, the Russians look like heroes, the US appears unable to back up its own rhetoric.

I gotta agree with Canuck.  This is textbook "he's not my guy so he can't do anything right" syndrome if ever I saw it.

Not sure I disagree.

If Obama had said nothing about Syria at all, he wouldn't have painted himself into a corner.  But he came out with the let's drop bombs and now he's looking for the Russians anyone to bail him out.

If he'd done the usual presidential thing and said 'we're reviewing our options and hoping the UN acts'...well no problem.
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« Reply #234 on: September 10, 2013, 06:58:41 PM »

So if he'd just kept quiet about world events, he'd have been a better president?

In any case, for every person who wanted him to be silent about the middle east, there were just as many (if not more) who would've been upset with him for doing so.  They would've called him a toothless president afraid to act.  

Did he make mistakes?  Sure, for one he underestimated how war weary our country has become.  But when he realized this (and the need to get back to a country in which presidents don't unilaterally declare war) and backed off and decided to wait for a vote in order to avoid doing what many of you were bitching about, he gets yelled at again.  

So yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Quote
If he'd done the usual presidential thing and said 'we're reviewing our options and hoping the UN acts'...well no problem.

That hasn't been the usual process in ages.  Maybe now it can be again.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:13:33 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #235 on: September 10, 2013, 07:39:50 PM »

Quote from: hepcat
I gotta agree with Canuck.  This is textbook "he's not my guy so he can't do anything right" syndrome if ever I saw it.

You know this is BS, hepcat. I voted for the guy in 2008, and a handful of posts ago I was praising him. This is me changing my opinions based on the facts coming out. Also, much of the anger towards the President is coming from HIS OWN PARTY. Read the news.

Quote from: Captain Caveman
It strikes me as quite ironic that many of the loudest voices calling Obama naive in his foreign policy are the same that claimed Iraq would greet us as liberators.

No, I think that's called "learning from your mistakes."
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:42:56 PM by YellowKing » Logged
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« Reply #236 on: September 10, 2013, 07:47:46 PM »

Most of the anger coming from his own party was due to his apparent decision to go forward without UN or congressional support.  It was also one of the reasons he DID decide to seek congressional support.
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« Reply #237 on: September 10, 2013, 08:23:50 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on September 10, 2013, 06:58:41 PM

So if he'd just kept quiet about world events, he'd have been a better president?

In any case, for every person who wanted him to be silent about the middle east, there were just as many (if not more) who would've been upset with him for doing so.  They would've called him a toothless president afraid to act.
Did he make mistakes?  Sure, for one he underestimated how war weary our country has become.

Not sure both of these can be true. Yes we are war weary, so I don't think there would have been too much of an outcry if he had used the usual stale political rhetoric rather than rattling sabers. Other than maybe McCain. But he wants to bomb everyone everywhere.

Quote
But when he realized this (and the need to get back to a country in which presidents don't unilaterally declare war) and backed off and decided to wait for a vote in order to avoid doing what many of you were bitching about, he gets yelled at again.  

He didn't decide anything. He was forced by the backlash to change tact.  And I'm glad he seems to be doing so. I won't ever say he's a bad president because he didn't get us into another war.  I might say he's a poor politician for saying we will and then tucking his tail and not following through. But I would say that he's a better man for walking away from the abyss rather than in pride doing it just because he can.

Quote
So yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Such is the office if POTUS.

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« Reply #238 on: September 10, 2013, 08:27:24 PM »

how do we know Russia didn't stage this whole thing just so they could look good on the global stage?  could Putin be putting us on?  where's my tinfoil hat!!!  paranoid
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« Reply #239 on: September 10, 2013, 08:32:23 PM »

Quote from: ATB on September 10, 2013, 08:23:50 PM


He didn't decide anything. He was forced by the backlash to change tact.  


So you don't believe a sitting U.S. president has ever gone ahead with a military strike in the past without UN backing at the very least?
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