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Author Topic: how come we're not attacking syria?  (Read 10967 times)
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hepcat
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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2013, 01:43:09 PM »

During the Gulf War, our troops were often faced with surplus tanks, humvees and weaponry that were made in the good ol' U.S. of A. (and sometimes still bearing the U.S. Army logo).  Same thing in Afghanistan (to a lesser extent).  This is nothing new.  

It doesn't excuse it, but it also needs context as this isn't a black and white issue.
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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2013, 01:47:16 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 23, 2013, 01:43:09 PM

During the Gulf War, our troops were often faced with surplus tanks, humvees and weaponry that were made in the good ol' U.S. of A. (and sometimes still bearing the U.S. Army logo).  Same thing in Afghanistan (to a lesser extent).  This is nothing new.  

It doesn't excuse it, but it also needs context as this isn't a black and white issue.

I agree hep. But there is so much uncertainty about who the rebels actually are (and good indicators that there are some al queda fighters)...so why do we keep making the same mistakes?  icon_frown
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2013, 01:51:36 PM »

Because not doing anything could be an even bigger mistake.  There is rarely a clear cut "right thing to do" in situations like this.  If we stay entirely out of it, we get accused of isolationism, if we get involved we're accused of imperialism.  Either decision results in complaints both external and internal.  Right now the administration is trying to err on the side that will hopefully create a more stable region that at least doesn't actively seek our destruction. 

...well...that and doesn't result in an interruption in oil flow.   icon_wink
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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2013, 07:39:49 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 23, 2013, 11:29:49 AM

Quote
President Barack Obama is in a position to move forward with a plan to arm Syrian rebels, an official said Monday, after concerns raised by Congress were resolved.

Our weapons today, our casualties tomorrow.
+1

Nothing new as you say Hep, but it needs to stop.  Aside from the probability of the weapons being used against us, the $17 trillion elephant in the room is reason enough to stop this type of support.
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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2013, 10:31:36 PM »

Believing we can simply "stop" is being extremely naive when it comes to foreign affairs.  Foreign diplomacy and affairs is not based on binary principles.  The nuance of dealing with foreign powers is so incredibly different between locales and times alone that just saying "stop" and doing so could (and most likely would) end up doing more harm than good.

History is full of examples that back this up. 
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« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2013, 01:54:26 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on June 14, 2013, 04:08:00 PM

We should provide just enough firepower to the rebels to keep the civil war stalemated until both sides are exhausted enough to negotiate an end to it. When bad guys are fighting bad guys, you want to encourage that.

And according to the CNN story linked a few posts back,

Quote
Noting al-Assad's forces have been helped by Hezbollah in Lebanon as well as Iran, Carney said Syrian rebels need the help of the United States and allied nations to withstand an increased assault.

"The aid is intended to help the opposition resist Assad and eventually prevail," Carney said, adding that any resolution of Syria's civil war will require a political transition.

His comment appeared intended to soften any expectations that the rebels could topple the regime by military means alone.

Excellent. The administration is taking my advice -- provide just enough aid to keep them fighting indefinitely.
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« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2013, 12:16:45 PM »

Corroborated evidence of chemical attacks?

If so, what should this mean for US intervention?

Could Egypt end up like Syria?

If it goes that way, what should this mean for US intervention?
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« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2013, 03:33:33 PM »

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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2013, 03:42:47 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 23, 2013, 12:16:45 PM

Corroborated evidence of chemical attacks?

If so, what should this mean for US intervention?

Could Egypt end up like Syria?

If it goes that way, what should this mean for US intervention?

I don't care what they do to each other, the US should not intervene.   Its not our place to pick sides in a civil war like that.
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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2013, 03:52:38 PM »

The situation is growing untenable.
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« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2013, 06:29:37 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on August 23, 2013, 03:42:47 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 23, 2013, 12:16:45 PM

Corroborated evidence of chemical attacks?

If so, what should this mean for US intervention?

Could Egypt end up like Syria?

If it goes that way, what should this mean for US intervention?

I don't care what they do to each other, the US should not intervene.   Its not our place to pick sides in a civil war like that.

I agree with brett, which is something that doesn't happen very often.  icon_lol There are no good guys in that fight.
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« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!
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« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2013, 08:24:56 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!

Not my wish.  I've said as much.
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« Reply #53 on: August 27, 2013, 12:24:51 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 23, 2013, 03:52:38 PM


Yeah, it wasn't the brightest idea to make that the red line, when in fact it wasn't.  On the other hand, why is it our job to intervene?  We have nothing to gain but hatred, as best I can tell.
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« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2013, 02:55:14 AM »

I am ambivalent. I've said several times that I don't think we should try to influence their civil war...yet at the same time I sympathize with the impulse to make chemical warfare so costly as to be unacceptable -- that is, for the political price to outweigh the battlefield advantage. Bloodying Assad's nose sufficiently to make this point without tipping the military balance to the rebels will be a delicate act. I'm skeptical that air strikes and cruise missiles can supply that kind of finesse.
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« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2013, 03:03:07 AM »

100k or more people have been killed already in this civil war by conventional means.   They are just as dead as the small number (relatively speaking compared to everything else) of people killed by chemical weapons.   I don't see why now it is so important to intervene where it wasn't before.
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« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2013, 06:05:16 AM »

The key to Syria is Russia.

The friend of my enemy is my enemy. They need to do something that REALLY pisses in Russia's oatmeal and point out that is mostly in response to the refusal on their part to reign Syria in as well as something against Syria. russia only understands hardball and unless they blink Syria won't either.

The area of blockades, no fly zones, and more latitude for Israel when it comes to supporting more support/action by them against Lebanon/Syria/Iran. It would have to be well thought out though to avoid derailing Israeli peace talks, despite the fact that there is little chance of success on that front anyway.
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« Reply #57 on: August 27, 2013, 07:32:38 AM »

I say we send them a sternly written letter laced with small pox.
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« Reply #58 on: August 27, 2013, 07:33:07 AM »

The permanent vetoes of the UN Security Council have hamstrung that organization for decades.
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« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2013, 11:48:08 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on August 27, 2013, 03:03:07 AM

100k or more people have been killed already in this civil war by conventional means.   They are just as dead as the small number (relatively speaking compared to everything else) of people killed by chemical weapons.   I don't see why now it is so important to intervene where it wasn't before.

I agree with this and am surprised by how my position has changed.  Whereas my original post was an attempted lambaste at Obama over his inconsistent policies, I'm now just sitting here shaking my head that he is yet another president who is getting the US involved in something completely detrimental to our country.

There is no need for us to be there especially since it's so unclear who the 'good guys' are.

Oh and we might reignite the cold war with Russia to boot.
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« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2013, 01:48:44 PM »

Quote
Moreover, where is the evidence that WMDs were used and that it had to be Assad who ordered them? Such an attack makes no sense.

Firing a few shells of gas at Syrian civilians was not going to advance Assad’s cause but, rather, was certain to bring universal condemnation on his regime and deal cards to the War Party which wants a U.S. war on Syria as the back door to war on Iran.

Why did the United States so swiftly dismiss Assad’s offer to have U.N. inspectors—already in Damascus investigating old charges he or the rebels used poison gas—go to the site of the latest incident?

Do we not want to know the truth?

Article here.
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« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2013, 02:05:33 PM »

Oh and here's a contrary one saying the rebels may have used Sarin. What a disaster we are making for ourselves.
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hepcat
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« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2013, 02:28:54 PM »

Sometimes, the only thing more duplicitous than a corrupt government is the people trying to bring it down.   icon_cry
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« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2013, 03:08:46 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on August 27, 2013, 03:03:07 AM

100k or more people have been killed already in this civil war by conventional means.   They are just as dead as the small number (relatively speaking compared to everything else) of people killed by chemical weapons.   I don't see why now it is so important to intervene where it wasn't before.
Because WMDs were used. It may seem arbitrary to you but the world in general has decided that a death by poison gas is much worse than a death by a bullet or shrapnel. Does it make sense? Who knows, but somewhere a line has to be drawn.
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« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2013, 03:09:30 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 26, 2013, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!

Not my wish.  I've said as much.

Then what were you complaining about?
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« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2013, 03:14:55 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 27, 2013, 01:48:44 PM

Quote
Moreover, where is the evidence that WMDs were used and that it had to be Assad who ordered them? Such an attack makes no sense.

Firing a few shells of gas at Syrian civilians was not going to advance Assad’s cause but, rather, was certain to bring universal condemnation on his regime and deal cards to the War Party which wants a U.S. war on Syria as the back door to war on Iran.

Why did the United States so swiftly dismiss Assad’s offer to have U.N. inspectors—already in Damascus investigating old charges he or the rebels used poison gas—go to the site of the latest incident?

Do we not want to know the truth?

Article here.
Some interesting questions asked in that article.
Quote
—Do we have incontrovertible proof that Bashar Assad ordered chemical weapons be used on his own people? And if he did not, who did?

—What kind of reprisals might we expect if we launch cruise missiles at Syria, which is allied with Hezbollah and Iran?

—If we attack, and Syria or its allies attack U.S. military or diplomatic missions in the Middle East or here in the United States, are we prepared for the wider war we will have started?

—Assuming Syria responds with a counterstrike, how far are we prepared to go up the escalator to regional war? If we intervene, are we prepared for the possible defeat of the side we have chosen, which would then be seen as a strategic defeat for the United States?

—If stung and bleeding from retaliation, are we prepared to go all the way, boots on the ground, to bring down Assad? Are we prepared to occupy Syria to prevent its falling to the Al-Nusra Front, which it may if Assad falls and we do not intervene?

Hopefully they're more carefully considered than the last time.

Also, when it comes to war the President holds all the cards. When was the last time Congress declared war again?
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« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2013, 03:26:23 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 27, 2013, 03:09:30 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 26, 2013, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!

Not my wish.  I've said as much.

Then what were you complaining about?

Read the thread and then come back and answer your own question.
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« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2013, 04:33:15 PM »

Israel has got to be shitting bricks over this.  It seems like any military action by the U.S. in that region eventually (rather quickly too) results in reprisals against them.
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« Reply #68 on: August 27, 2013, 04:45:24 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 04:33:15 PM

Israel has got to be shitting bricks over this.  It seems like any military action by the U.S. in that region eventually (rather quickly too) results in reprisals against them.

Not only that but it must be hard to swallow that they face that threat because we are hell bent on helping the Radical Islamic/Al Qaeda/Muslim Brotherhood infested/controlled rebels gain control of Syria. I suspect that will be a much greater long term threat to Israel that al-Assad ever could have been.

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« Reply #69 on: August 27, 2013, 04:46:55 PM »

Quote from: Grifman on August 27, 2013, 03:09:30 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 26, 2013, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!

Not my wish.  I've said as much.

Then what were you complaining about?

He thinks not applying the same solution to every problem is inconsistent. When Obama does it.

Ale
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« Reply #70 on: August 27, 2013, 05:40:28 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 27, 2013, 04:46:55 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 27, 2013, 03:09:30 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 26, 2013, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!

Not my wish.  I've said as much.

Then what were you complaining about?

He thinks not applying the same solution to every problem is inconsistent. When Obama does it.

Ale

Obama has been very consistent in helping radical Islamic terror groups gain power in the Middle East.
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« Reply #71 on: August 27, 2013, 05:47:26 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 27, 2013, 04:46:55 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 27, 2013, 03:09:30 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 26, 2013, 08:24:56 PM

Quote from: Grifman on August 26, 2013, 07:46:40 PM

Quote from: ATB on August 04, 2011, 01:20:37 PM

Seems their crackdown is as bad if not worse than libya's?

Looks like you are going to get your wish!

Not my wish.  I've said as much.

Then what were you complaining about?

He thinks not applying the same solution to every problem is inconsistent. When Obama does it.

Ale

Looks like it is going to be the same solution and if you support Obama I guess you retroactively support GWB. 

But I guess you didn't read the thread either.
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« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2013, 05:47:51 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on August 27, 2013, 05:40:28 PM


Obama has been very consistent in helping radical Islamic terror groups gain power in the Middle East.

He's just continuing the Bush era policies.  I thought you'd be pleased.   icon_wink
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« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2013, 05:54:14 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 05:47:51 PM

Quote from: msduncan on August 27, 2013, 05:40:28 PM


Obama has been very consistent in helping radical Islamic terror groups gain power in the Middle East.

He's just continuing the Bush era policies.  I thought you'd be pleased.   icon_wink

Last time I checked, Bush didn't back the Muslim Brotherhood in three takeover bids in three separate countries.
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« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2013, 06:01:29 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on August 27, 2013, 05:54:14 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 05:47:51 PM

Quote from: msduncan on August 27, 2013, 05:40:28 PM


Obama has been very consistent in helping radical Islamic terror groups gain power in the Middle East.

He's just continuing the Bush era policies.  I thought you'd be pleased.   icon_wink

Last time I checked, Bush didn't back the Muslim Brotherhood in three takeover bids in three separate countries.

One point of order:  The Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected into office in Egypt initially.  

As for your latter claim, go read up on ISOG.  They backed quite a few folks you probably wouldn't approve of during their brief existence.

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« Reply #75 on: August 27, 2013, 06:52:52 PM »

There are no white knights in the world of politics.  We supported far right dictators and corrupt regimes for decades to keep the leftist groups from gaining power in every country in which we could get a foothold.  When it's your guy, you're much more tolerant of his failures and abuses than the other guys'.  And that goes for the American political system as much as geopolitics.
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« Reply #76 on: August 27, 2013, 07:01:55 PM »

we should give them all marijuana and let them smoke themselves to death.
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« Reply #77 on: August 27, 2013, 07:03:44 PM »

We armed bin Laden at one point.
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« Reply #78 on: August 27, 2013, 07:04:42 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 07:03:44 PM

We armed bin Laden at one point.

and Trained.
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« Reply #79 on: August 27, 2013, 07:06:04 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on August 27, 2013, 05:54:14 PM

Quote from: hepcat on August 27, 2013, 05:47:51 PM

Quote from: msduncan on August 27, 2013, 05:40:28 PM


Obama has been very consistent in helping radical Islamic terror groups gain power in the Middle East.

He's just continuing the Bush era policies.  I thought you'd be pleased.   icon_wink

Last time I checked, Bush didn't back the Muslim Brotherhood in three takeover bids in three separate countries.

Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan.  Oh, and he didn't get Bin Laden (the justification for f*cking everything up)
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