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Author Topic: Hmmm. What if: Hilary = VP? Does That Sway Your Vote to McCain?  (Read 11814 times)
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ATB
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« on: May 11, 2008, 08:19:29 PM »

Right now I'm leaning towards Obama for Prez., however, the thought of Hilary being one heartbeat away from the presidency gives me pause as I find nothing admirable about the woman and would not want her in control.  Though I'm not sure that risk is great enough to vote against BO. (now that would be a sweet campaign slogan: BO Knows Politics; BO Knows Foreign Policy- next stop white house confirmed if he uses that).

SO- If you're pro Obama, would your view change if she gave the VP slot to Clinton?

Is it even a possibility?  Would Hilary on the ticket be too devisive?  If so, who are some other candidates?
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DarkEL
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« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 08:30:11 PM »

Obama accepting Hilary as his VP would give me real pause about him. I understand that he will be under considerable pressure to take her on the ticket, but it would raise concerns for me about the integrity of his campaign if he brought on a person that embodies everything that his campaign is focused on changing about politics.

Plus it seems that there are just so many better qualified dems for the VP spot.

Personally I think the real dream ticket would be an Obama-Edwards, even though I don't think there's any chance of that happening.
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Sarkus
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« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 08:52:41 PM »

Hillary as VP would be a bad idea. 
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 11:00:51 PM »

Hillary would be a terrible choice IMHO.  I think he will probably go for a political outsider with a millitary background.  Maybe Wes Clark or Colin Powell.
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 11:50:29 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on May 11, 2008, 11:00:51 PM

Maybe Wes Clark or Colin Powell.

Or maybe he'd consider someone like that and find sane picks.
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2008, 12:08:23 AM »

Obama/Colbert!!!!  Truthiness!
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 12:36:57 AM »

If Hillary is VP, Obama had better hire the best damn poison tester around...
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 01:43:31 AM »

It would send me spiraling back into a state of utter disgust and apathy.  I'm REALLY hoping it doesn't happen.
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 02:18:40 AM »

Mark my words...it'll be Bill Richardson.
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2008, 03:10:29 AM »

I'm presently undecided between Obama and McCain. I'd consider Hillary a minor negative for Obama, but not enough to make much difference -- they are substantively the same, and I don't buy the whole "change" schtick. 
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2008, 03:45:51 AM »

Hillary as VP is a good idea. It'll be like a good luck charm for Obama just like Cheney is for Bush.smile
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2008, 03:46:09 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on May 12, 2008, 02:18:40 AM

Mark my words...it'll be Bill Richardson.

I agree, I think this is the choice.

I'm an Obama voter.  I just voted for him in the Oregon primary - in fact I re-registered as a Democrat solely to be able to cast that vote.

If he adds Hilary to the ticket I'll vote third party or possibly even McCain.
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2008, 03:07:38 PM »

Hillary on the VP slot wouldn't change my vote.  Richardson on the VP slot would probably cause me to fall asleep during the VP debate.  How has support of Obama among hispanic been since Richardson's endorsement?

I would think Warner would be a good choice for VP.
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2008, 04:50:36 PM »

I think he should get Chuck Norris on the ballot.
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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2008, 09:55:51 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on May 11, 2008, 08:30:11 PM

Obama accepting Hilary as his VP would give me real pause about him. I understand that he will be under considerable pressure to take her on the ticket, but it would raise concerns for me about the integrity of his campaign if he brought on a person that embodies everything that his campaign is focused on changing about politics.

Plus it seems that there are just so many better qualified dems for the VP spot.

Personally I think the real dream ticket would be an Obama-Edwards, even though I don't think there's any chance of that happening.

Eldon said it already - it would bring into question everything that I believe Obama stands for.  It'd cost him my vote.
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2008, 10:03:04 PM »

I think Huckabee on the R side (as the rumor of the day has as the front runner) is a bigger negative to me.  Nice guy who has no business in Federal Government.

The odds are more in Favor of McCain dying of natural causes in office than Obama.
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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2008, 10:30:19 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on May 12, 2008, 12:08:23 AM

Obama/Colbert!!!!  Truthiness!

I support this message.
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2008, 10:19:43 PM »

I agree that Obama almost has to nominate Richardson -- it will be very hard for a Democrat to win with Obama's weakness among Hispanics.  (I really don't know if this is a true statement or not, but it seems like a good theory at the moment.)
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 12:44:59 PM »

I don't know who Obama will pick...but you can bet the ranch it will be a white male, unless it's Hillary.
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2008, 12:50:53 PM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on May 14, 2008, 12:44:59 PM

I don't know who Obama will pick...but you can bet the ranch it will be a white male, unless it's Hillary.

Sharpton. It should be Sharpton.
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 12:55:46 PM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on May 14, 2008, 12:44:59 PM

I don't know who Obama will pick...but you can bet the ranch it will be a white male, including Hillary.

FTFY.
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 03:54:08 PM »

Unify the party. Obama needs as many of Clinton's voters as he can get, and like it or not, some of them do have legitimate reasons for preferring Hillary Clinton, and some of those folks won't come home in November.

Unity the party -- www.voteboth.com

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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2008, 04:11:44 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on May 14, 2008, 03:54:08 PM

Unify the party. Obama needs as many of Clinton's voters as he can get, and like it or not, some of them do have legitimate reasons for preferring Hillary Clinton, and some of those folks won't come home in November.

Unity the party -- www.voteboth.com



I just can't see how that wouldn't be a bad move. It would most certainly cost him my likely vote (and others as people have mentioned) as Hilary is very divisive. If Hilary is on the ticket, I would be that independents go to the repub ticket.
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2008, 04:21:38 PM »

Vice Presidential picks can be shown to effect party unity, but I've never seen a study where they impact "independent" voters.

Go down a checklist of issues. Find me major areas of disagreement between Clinton and Obama. They're running on basically the same platform, with different focus issues. A Vice President Hillary Clinton would not change the legislative or diplomatic substance of an Obama administration. Since that is what the point of a presidential election is -- the agenda set out by the candidate -- any vote against Obama because Hillary Clinton and not, say, Ed Rendell, is his Vice Presidential candidate is just flat out illogical.

You'll vote for more of the same on the war, more restrictions on personal freedoms through frighteningly conservative judicial appointments and more fiscal irresponsibility just because you don't like Hillary Clinton as a person? Even though she wouldn't change any of Barack Obama's policy positions?

That's just fucking insane.
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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2008, 04:38:18 PM »

Fireball - you're in politics.  Are you seriously telling me it surprises you that people make their decisions based on their perceptions of someone's personality, rather than a reasoned analysis of their policies?  The Republicans capitalize on this garbage all the time with their flag pins, their purple band-aids, and their "who would you rather share a beer with?" metrics.

It does make me sad that ATB thinks there's nothing admirable he can find in Hillary Clinton - there's things I don't like about her pandering (flag-burning amendments?  argh!), and her close coupling with lobbyists, but she's a senator who has worked hard to bring resources to New York post 9/11, she cares deeply about the health care crisis that tens of millions of Americans suffer through, and she's the first credible female candidate for president that we've had in this country.  There's nothing admirable in those things?
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2008, 04:51:12 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 14, 2008, 04:38:18 PM

Fireball - you're in politics.  Are you seriously telling me it surprises you that people make their decisions based on their perceptions of someone's personality, rather than a reasoned analysis of their policies?  The Republicans capitalize on this garbage all the time with their flag pins, their purple band-aids, and their "who would you rather share a beer with?" metrics.

Yes, I know people use stupid measures for determining their vote all the time. I expect better of people who post on here, and who are ostensibly more motivated and more educated than the average voter.

But when someone supports Obama's policy positions, and then adds a Veep who supports those same positions, albeit in slightly different ways, and that someone precludes voting for Obama? That's just mind-bogglingly illogical. I expect that crap from folks who don't actually understand the policy positions involved, not those who do.

Mind you, I'm equally irritated at Clinton dead enders who vow not to vote for Obama unless he picks Hillary.
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2008, 04:51:37 PM »

Hillary and Obama are virtually identical in terms of major policy issues.  That's why their debates have been so boring and the race has degenerated into name calling and race baiting over the last few weeks.  I like Obama because he seems willing to listen to all sides of an argument and make decisions unaffected by political bias and inside pressures.  He seems to be above traditional politics and genuinely honest.  Maybe that's all hogwash.  But that's how I choose to view him.  I see none of that in Hillary.  Picking Hillary would be a sign of Obama abandoning everything his campaign has been about and appeasing political insiders in an attempt to "unite the party" and win in November.  I would lose respect for him if he did that.
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2008, 04:59:39 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on May 14, 2008, 04:51:37 PM

Picking Hillary would be a sign of Obama abandoning everything his campaign has been about and appeasing political insiders in an attempt to "unite the party" and win in November.

The goal for Obama is "win in November."  Period.  If adding Clinton as VP gets him that win in November, then thumbs-fucking-up.  Adding Clinton would be a calculated move intended to garner him more votes than McCain.  Period.  He's not going to add someone that he thinks will cost him the election for the sake of placating an ex-President.

Semi-on-topic:  Just read this fascinating piece by Charles Pierce in Esquire called "The Cynic and Senator Obama."  I, like Fireball, want to believe in the voters, but I have a hard time overcoming my cynicism.
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2008, 05:01:48 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on May 14, 2008, 04:51:12 PM

But when someone supports Obama's policy positions, and then adds a Veep who supports those same positions, albeit in slightly different ways, and that someone precludes voting for Obama? That's just mind-bogglingly illogical. I expect that crap from folks who don't actually understand the policy positions involved, not those who do.

Perhaps when picking the leader of the country some people consider more than just policy positions?



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brettmcd
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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2008, 05:05:00 PM »

The problem with picking Hillary is that she is so hated by the other side that it may bring people out to vote for McCain who otherwise might stay home.   Obama is far less of a hated figure by conservatives then Hillary is, so he would be better off picking a less hated VP.
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2008, 05:50:03 PM »

Quote from: Exodor on May 14, 2008, 05:01:48 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on May 14, 2008, 04:51:12 PM

But when someone supports Obama's policy positions, and then adds a Veep who supports those same positions, albeit in slightly different ways, and that someone precludes voting for Obama? That's just mind-bogglingly illogical. I expect that crap from folks who don't actually understand the policy positions involved, not those who do.

Perhaps when picking the leader of the country some people consider more than just policy positions?

Yes, some people actually do make choices based on things other than what really matters -- policy. Doesn't make it any more logical.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 05:52:14 PM by Fireball1244 » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2008, 05:53:23 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on May 14, 2008, 05:50:03 PM

Yes, some people actually do make choices based on things other than what really matters -- policy.

Well, let's be fair.  Cost of haircut matters nearly as much.
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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2008, 06:00:41 PM »

My support of Obama has very little to do with his stance on many issues.  In fact I flat out disagree with him in some cases. It's my opinion that people tend to move towards the center after they get elected anyway. I vote mainly based on my opinion of the individual person seperate of the issues.  I voted for Gore over Bush and Bush over Kerry. My preference among the remaining 3 candidates would be 1.Obama, 2. McCain, ---------->99. Hillary.   The conduct of her and her campaign duing this primary has done nothing except lower my opinion of her.
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2008, 06:20:43 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on May 14, 2008, 06:00:41 PM

My support of Obama has very little to do with his stance on many issues.  In fact I flat out disagree with him in some cases. It's my opinion that people tend to move towards the center after they get elected anyway. I vote mainly based on my opinion of the individual person seperate of the issues.  I voted for Gore over Bush and Bush over Kerry. My preference among the remaining 3 candidates would be 1.Obama, 2. McCain, ---------->99. Hillary.   The conduct of her and her campaign duing this primary has done nothing except lower my opinion of her.

And your opinion of the individual person "seperate of the issues" is formed how, exactly?  And why, exactly, does that trump the policies that the person intends to enact?
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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2008, 07:22:59 PM »

What good is policy if a person is not trustworthy and of low moral character?

A president is more than just a policy drone.
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2008, 07:33:05 PM »

Quote from: Freezer-TPF- on May 14, 2008, 07:22:59 PM

What good is policy if a person is not trustworthy and of low moral character?

A president is more than just a policy drone.

What, are you saying that the people who voted in the last two elections were wrong?  Twice? 

Seriously - I want to believe in change and Clinton is more of the same.  Not as bad as Bush 2.0, but pretty much.  She comes pre-corrupted and carrying baggage.  (Land deal anyone?)  We can do better.
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2008, 08:52:50 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on May 14, 2008, 05:50:03 PM

Quote from: Exodor on May 14, 2008, 05:01:48 PM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on May 14, 2008, 04:51:12 PM

But when someone supports Obama's policy positions, and then adds a Veep who supports those same positions, albeit in slightly different ways, and that someone precludes voting for Obama? That's just mind-bogglingly illogical. I expect that crap from folks who don't actually understand the policy positions involved, not those who do.

Perhaps when picking the leader of the country some people consider more than just policy positions?

Yes, some people actually do make choices based on things other than what really matters -- policy. Doesn't make it any more logical.

The irony, Mr. Campaign manager, is how often are elections decided by policy? They're not because people like you who are a part of the political machine and those who run campaigns find any flaw with an individual and try to exploit it to make the other person look bad regardless of what that persons policy is. Look at the hype Wright is getting.  So if it's a matter of logic, perhaps you should retool how elections are run and make policy the most important issue.

Oh and again- since when does policy matter as most policy seems to be dictated on the fly/by what the other political party will allow and what appears to poll well...

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 14, 2008, 07:33:05 PM

Seriously - I want to believe in change and Clinton is more of the same.  Not as bad as Bush 2.0, but pretty much.  She comes pre-corrupted and carrying baggage.  (Land deal anyone?)  We can do better.

Precisely.
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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2008, 09:06:19 PM »

Quote from: ATB on May 14, 2008, 08:52:50 PM

They're not because people like you who are a part of the political machine and those who run campaigns find any flaw with an individual and try to exploit it to make the other person look bad regardless of what that persons policy is. Look at the hype Wright is getting.  So if it's a matter of logic, perhaps you should retool how elections are run and make policy the most important issue.

Hey, chief, this has been mostly a one-sided affair for decades.  Please note how many well-meaning policy wonks the democrats nominate, and the strategery by which they're derailed:  Willie Horton, tank rides, "I invented the internet", "Faked purple heart!1!", wind-surfing, flag pins, and Jeremiah Wright.

When McCain's campaign succumbed to the adulterous-black-daughter rumors in South Carolina in 2000, it was Bush/Rove who did it to him, not the dems.
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« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2008, 09:14:13 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 14, 2008, 04:38:18 PM

It does make me sad that ATB thinks there's nothing admirable he can find in Hillary Clinton - there's things I don't like about her pandering (flag-burning amendments?  argh!), and her close coupling with lobbyists, but she's a senator who has worked hard to bring resources to New York post 9/11, she cares deeply about the health care crisis that tens of millions of Americans suffer through, and she's the first credible female candidate for president that we've had in this country.  There's nothing admirable in those things?

Well put. Had Obama not entered the race, a good number of the forum liberals would be Hillary enthusiasts right now. Just a few short years ago they (you) thought that Bill Clinton was one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century -- it's astonishing how quickly his stock fell. Most of the Hillary hatred comes from her opposing Obama...which is a shame or her, really. It was supposed to be her turn at bat. I see her as a tragic figure.

Not that I like any of the choices at this early stage of the general election runup.
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« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2008, 10:12:54 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on May 14, 2008, 09:14:13 PM

Most of the Hillary hatred comes from her opposing Obama...which is a shame or her, really. It was supposed to be her turn at bat. I see her as a tragic figure.

There was alot of Hillary hatred before Obama came along.  It's just that now instead of just Republicans hating her, now about 40% of the Democrats hate her too.
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