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Author Topic: Seriously? These guys should stay in charge of our government?  (Read 4333 times)
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« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2008, 07:32:37 PM »

The thing is, when push comes to shove, trade embargos and sharing of technologies with your allies means we move beyond the oil age and gain new ground in energy. If that ultimately means we put ourselves (and I'm referring to western culture) on the us vs them and rally the allies for a JUST cause, then we put ourselves in position to enforce that. The downside is that it pitches the world into battle that will end with either The Chrysalids, Waterworld or Mad Max.

I think diplomacy and finding other sources before precious resources are almost exhausted is the best bet.
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« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2008, 08:30:55 PM »

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The Chrysalids, Waterworld or Mad Max.

I call dibs on the 1973 XB GT Ford Falcon Coupe "Interceptor".  smile
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« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2008, 08:48:41 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on June 11, 2008, 03:37:38 PM

So you are defending the market?
The market? Yes. Oil companies and speculators? No.
Quote
Production is up.  Storage is up.  Consumption is down.  Prices are up.
Any loss in demand for oil in the United States is more than made up for by increase in demand by China, India, and the Middle East.
Quote
The market is clearly broken - it breaks the simple rules of basic macroeconomics.  You don't want protection from predators like the oil companies? 
Sure, but taxing "windfall" profits is not the way to go. Having the government decide on how much profits a company can make seems about as anti-American as anything I can think of.
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« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2008, 08:53:58 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on June 11, 2008, 07:17:36 PM

Quote from: Brendan on June 11, 2008, 06:10:56 PM

But yeah, do I think the AG is going to bring price collusion charges against Saudi Arabia?  Seems unlikely.  I would still like to empower the AG to do so, however.

To what end, and for what purpose?

Sorry, let me be clearer - the change in the bill is to allow the AG to bring price collusion charges against companies and against countries.  I don't specifically care about Saudi Arabia.  I care a lot more about collusion between American companies.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 08:59:24 PM by Brendan » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2008, 08:56:43 PM »

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Sure, but taxing "windfall" profits is not the way to go. Having the government decide on how much profits a company can make seems about as anti-American as anything I can think of.

Fair enough.  For sake of argument, let's say that they can keep their profits, as obscene as they are.  I don't see any reason why we should pay them the "Sucking on the tit of the American Taxpayer" bonus tax though. 
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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2008, 12:32:03 AM »

The Entertainment Software Association should hire this guy as their new president.
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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2008, 03:45:13 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 11, 2008, 04:41:57 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on June 11, 2008, 04:37:45 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how imposing additional taxes on oil companies with reduce gas prices. 

The gas price reductions would come through the other portions of the act that punish price gouging, reduce speculation in the futures market, and address price-fixing by OPEC.

This is assuming naively that OPEC gives a shit whether the US DOJ indicts them or not. All OPEC has to say is "fuck you" to America then shut off all shipments of oil to us. Or at the very least outright ignore any such indictments just because they can.

Also, as a conservative I've been outraged continuously at the brazen spending of the Bush administration. Believe it or not, I'm embarrassed by the Republican party on a number of levels now because no where have they shown even a hint of fiscal responsibility during this administration on anything and that's leaving the wars completely out of the picture. I want a president who will walk in and on Day One slash 1/3 of the federal government on the spot. Hundreds of wasteful programs, created by Democrats and Republicans alike, should have been axed years ago yet they've been allowed to flourish and wallow in the boondoggle that is the US government. Wheeee!
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2008, 03:48:08 AM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on June 12, 2008, 03:45:13 AM

Quote from: Brendan on June 11, 2008, 04:41:57 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on June 11, 2008, 04:37:45 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how imposing additional taxes on oil companies with reduce gas prices. 

The gas price reductions would come through the other portions of the act that punish price gouging, reduce speculation in the futures market, and address price-fixing by OPEC.

This is assuming naively that OPEC gives a shit whether the US DOJ indicts them or not. All OPEC has to say is "fuck you" to America then shut off all shipments of oil to us. Or at the very least outright ignore any such indictments just because they can.

Totally understood.  For political reasons, they can't actually embargo us,  but they could do worse things like stop using the dollar as the accounting unit for oil.  That'd screw us.

More interesting, as I alluded to above, is the ability to use it domestically in the case of collusion and price fixing.
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2008, 04:03:41 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 12, 2008, 03:48:08 AM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on June 12, 2008, 03:45:13 AM

Quote from: Brendan on June 11, 2008, 04:41:57 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on June 11, 2008, 04:37:45 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how imposing additional taxes on oil companies with reduce gas prices. 

The gas price reductions would come through the other portions of the act that punish price gouging, reduce speculation in the futures market, and address price-fixing by OPEC.

This is assuming naively that OPEC gives a shit whether the US DOJ indicts them or not. All OPEC has to say is "fuck you" to America then shut off all shipments of oil to us. Or at the very least outright ignore any such indictments just because they can.

Totally understood.  For political reasons, they can't actually embargo us,  but they could do worse things like stop using the dollar as the accounting unit for oil.  That'd screw us.

More interesting, as I alluded to above, is the ability to use it domestically in the case of collusion and price fixing.

I have no doubt that within 2 years the Euro will be the accounting unit for oil.  And yes, it will screw us.

gellar
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2008, 04:07:15 AM »

Quote from: gellar on June 12, 2008, 04:03:41 AM

I have no doubt that within 2 years the Euro will be the accounting unit for oil.  And yes, it will screw us.

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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2008, 01:59:46 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 11, 2008, 08:53:58 PM

Quote from: Geezer on June 11, 2008, 07:17:36 PM

Quote from: Brendan on June 11, 2008, 06:10:56 PM

But yeah, do I think the AG is going to bring price collusion charges against Saudi Arabia?  Seems unlikely.  I would still like to empower the AG to do so, however.

To what end, and for what purpose?

Sorry, let me be clearer - the change in the bill is to allow the AG to bring price collusion charges against companies and against countries.  I don't specifically care about Saudi Arabia.  I care a lot more about collusion between American companies.

That would be fine, and a change I'd agree with, but the original bill itself, S. 2991 as you linked, says:

Quote
TITLE IV--NO OIL PRODUCING AND EXPORTING CARTELS

SEC. 401. NO OIL PRODUCING AND EXPORTING CARTELS ACT OF 2008.

(a) Short Title- This section may be cited as the `No Oil Producing and Exporting Cartels Act of 2008' or `NOPEC'.

(b) Sherman Act- The Sherman Act (15 U.S.C. 1 et seq.) is amended by adding after section 7 the following:


`SEC. 7A. OIL PRODUCING CARTELS.

`(a) In General- It shall be illegal and a violation of this Act for any foreign state, or any instrumentality or agent of any foreign state, to act collectively or in combination with any other foreign state, any instrumentality or agent of any other foreign state, or any other person, whether by cartel or any other association or form of cooperation or joint action--

`(1) to limit the production or distribution of oil, natural gas, or any other petroleum product;

`(2) to set or maintain the price of oil, natural gas, or any petroleum product; or

`(3) to otherwise take any action in restraint of trade for oil, natural gas, or any petroleum product;

when such action, combination, or collective action has a direct, substantial, and reasonably foreseeable effect on the market, supply, price, or distribution of oil, natural gas, or other petroleum product in the United States.

`(b) Sovereign Immunity- A foreign state engaged in conduct in violation of subsection (a) shall not be immune under the doctrine of sovereign immunity from the jurisdiction or judgments of the courts of the United States in any action brought to enforce this section.

`(c) Inapplicability of Act of State Doctrine- No court of the United States shall decline, based on the act of state doctrine, to make a determination on the merits in an action brought under this section.

`(d) Enforcement- The Attorney General of the United States may bring an action to enforce this section in any district court of the United States as provided under the antitrust laws.'

Which is squarely aimed at OPEC (uh it's called NOPEC), and at foreign governments.  That's ridiculous.
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2008, 02:15:36 PM »

Quote from: Eightball on June 12, 2008, 01:59:46 PM


Which is squarely aimed at OPEC (uh it's called NOPEC), and at foreign governments.  That's ridiculous.

Well they figured as long as the bill has zero chance at passing they mine as well take a few shots at OPEC too.  That ought to gain them some points with the constituents.  The bill is a joke.  It's as much of a publicity stunt as bringing the Big Oil CEOs in front of Congress for a televised grilling or bringing baseball players in front of Congress to deny using steroids. All of it is a waste of time and money as far as I'm concerned.

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