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Author Topic: Health Care reform  (Read 1728 times)
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hepcat
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« on: May 13, 2013, 06:02:27 PM »

Whether you're for or against Obama's attempts to reform health care through his methods, I think it's fairly obvious something needs to be done after this report came out recently.

It just boggles my mind that hospitals can charge whatever they feel like charging without any real oversight to reign them in.  I can't see how this should be allowed to continue.   icon_confused
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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2013, 06:41:50 PM »

And to preempt the inevitable "But...but...FREE MARKET!" cry, I'll ask how you plan to comparison shop when you're on your way to the ER in an ambulance.
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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2013, 06:54:00 PM »

But you couldn't even price shop if you did have the time as Hospitals traditionally won't quote you a price for a procedure...or at least give you an all inclusive price.  Also, the discrepancy between what they actually charge insurance companies versus what they attempt to bill initially is absurdly different a lot of the time.  To me, healthcare seems like a corrupt monopoly.  Pardon the hyperbole, but it just amazes me.
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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2013, 07:10:26 PM »

I've not had insurance for the last year and we've found that in many cases providers will charges less because we're uninsured than we we would have been charged if we were insured.

We've also compared bills on doctor's exams and the 'discount' that insurance companies gave us brought the costs down to still more than we pay with out them.

Healthcare is a monopoly.  Not sure universal healthcare will change that as the corporations are always one step ahead and willing to do whatever it takes to make a buck. Especially since no president repub or dem is willing to do anything about it when the dam breaks and we find out we've all been screwed.
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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 07:56:32 PM »

Quote
I've not had insurance for the last year and we've found that in many cases providers will charges less because we're uninsured than we we would have been charged if we were insured.

You're an extraordinarily rare case then as there's a wealth of documented cases in that report in which health insurance companies were charged a shockingly low amount compared to the bills that the uninsured were presented with...and expected to pay.

wait...unless we take into account your next statement:

Quote
We've also compared bills on doctor's exams and the 'discount' that insurance companies gave us brought the costs down to still more than we pay with out them.

We're talking about hospital procedures, not medical exams performed by your doctor.
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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 09:22:50 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on May 13, 2013, 06:41:50 PM

And to preempt the inevitable "But...but...FREE MARKET!" cry, I'll ask how you plan to comparison shop when you're on your way to the ER in an ambulance.

I don't have a problem with a highly skilled surgeon / doctor / specialist / GM, whatever making a solid wage.  I don't want the "Discount brain surgeon".  That said, looking at the surgery my wife recently underwent I'd love to see the justification of 1/3 the cost OF MY ENTIRE MORTGAGE for a 2 hour procedure.  There certainly seems to be a bit of a disconnect.   I'm so very, very thankful that I have insurance...I can't imagine how somebody who doesn't would tackle this...
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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 09:42:37 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 13, 2013, 09:22:50 PM

Quote from: Gratch on May 13, 2013, 06:41:50 PM

And to preempt the inevitable "But...but...FREE MARKET!" cry, I'll ask how you plan to comparison shop when you're on your way to the ER in an ambulance.

I don't have a problem with a highly skilled surgeon / doctor / specialist / GM, whatever making a solid wage.  I don't want the "Discount brain surgeon".  That said, looking at the surgery my wife recently underwent I'd love to see the justification of 1/3 the cost OF MY ENTIRE MORTGAGE for a 2 hour procedure.  There certainly seems to be a bit of a disconnect.   I'm so very, very thankful that I have insurance...I can't imagine how somebody who doesn't would tackle this...

I'm staring down the barrel of delivery of twins (via C-Section) and the accompanying hospital stay and follow-up.  I'm estimating that the bill for all this will likely run into 6 figures by the time all is said and done.

Thankfully, my out-of-pocket max for the year is $5,800.  I can't even imagine doing it without insurance.
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 10:55:34 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 13, 2013, 09:22:50 PM

I don't want the "Discount brain surgeon".



sorry, it just popped into my head.
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 01:42:19 AM »

"The kneebone's connected to the... something. The something's connected to the... red thing. The red thing's connected to my wrist watch... Uh oh. "
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 02:08:37 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 13, 2013, 07:56:32 PM

We're talking about hospital procedures, not medical exams performed by your doctor.

Same thing for childbirth. That work for you?
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 02:46:37 AM »

Quote from: ATB on May 14, 2013, 02:08:37 AM

Quote from: hepcat on May 13, 2013, 07:56:32 PM

We're talking about hospital procedures, not medical exams performed by your doctor.

Same thing for childbirth. That work for you?

Congratulations on being a very lucky man, I guess.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 11:39:27 AM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 03:45:18 AM »

Quote from: ATB on May 13, 2013, 07:10:26 PM

I've not had insurance for the last year and we've found that in many cases providers will charges less because we're uninsured than we we would have been charged if we were insured.

We've also compared bills on doctor's exams and the 'discount' that insurance companies gave us brought the costs down to still more than we pay with out them.

Healthcare is a monopoly.  Not sure universal healthcare will change that as the corporations are always one step ahead and willing to do whatever it takes to make a buck. Especially since no president repub or dem is willing to do anything about it when the dam breaks and we find out we've all been screwed.
Yikes, get some insurance man! Or move to Canada or something.
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« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2013, 02:59:45 PM »

Tip of the iceberg?
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« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2013, 03:55:22 PM »

I did notice this response in the comments section that draws into question the author of this article's claim that you can't compare apples to oranges...then doing just that it seems:

Quote
The author has done a lot of analysis but failed to do research. However he is equally guilty of comparing apples to oranges and clearly has group coverage. Any individual who applies for insurance on E-health or one of the large nationals, NEVER gets the cheapest rate. It is a teaser rate or only for those in perfect health which simply does not exist. You cannot lie on the application due to the pre-existing clauses which will result in NO coverage at all shld. you have a health mishap due to your condition. The insurance companies ALWAYS add a risk premium to the lowest rate offered (BAIT and SWITCH) just like some car dealers and one always pays $80 plus or more depending on the risk factors the insurers add such as age, hypertensive, location, amount of meds you are currently one and so on. I was 51 in 2009 and applied for catastrophic insurance with Anthem BCBS in Ga. and the rate advertised was $130 or something but after the application I ended up paying $260 a month. Another co. would only provide insurance to me if I signed a WAIVER of coverage for a pre-existing condition for life. I applied to 4 different insurers and each time the advertised premium was not available to me and only for someone in perfect health.

I honestly believe our health insurance system (and health care in general) is fundamentally broken and needs to be fixed.  Will Obamacare do the job?  I'm not sure yet.  But at least it's a step in the right direction in my view.  Even if it fails and never gets off the ground, it's at least focused the public eye on the comings and goings within that area.
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« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 04:09:52 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on May 31, 2013, 03:55:22 PM

I honestly believe our health insurance system (and health care in general) is fundamentally broken and needs to be fixed. 

I agree.

Quote
Will Obamacare do the job?  I'm not sure yet.  But at least it's a step in the right direction in my view.

I think what it wants to do is noble. I think, however, there is a difference between universal healthcare and mandated care being forced upon the citizenry at gunpoint.

Quote
Even if it fails and never gets off the ground, it's at least focused the public eye on the comings and goings within that area.

True, but the public is not the problem (if you don't include all of our collective bad habits). It's the companies and the government that are the problem.  Government never seems to do a good job fixing either of those things.
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« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2013, 04:50:46 PM »

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The next cheapest plan, the “bronze” comprehensive plan, costs $205 a month. But in 2013, on eHealthInsurance.com (NASDAQ:EHTH), the median cost of the five cheapest plans was only $92.

In other words, for the typical 25-year-old male non-smoking Californian, Obamacare will drive premiums up by between 100 and 123 percent.

A couple questions after reading that article:

-  How many of the "25-year-old male non-smoking Californians" will not qualify for the private plans (at least at that low rate) due to pre-existing conditions?
-  They are also only talking about monthly premiums.  Does this data account for the high deductables or out of pocket maximums associated with any of these plans?  

Comment I read which summed it up pretty well:  "If you can get your cheaper insurance from eHealthInsurance, go ahead.  I don't think Obamacare is stopping you.  It is my understanding that the insurance exchanges are for those people who can't get private insurance from groups like eHealthInsurance because of their health history.  Naturally they will be more expensive.  Obamacare insures that they won't be punitively expensive or, worse, completely unavailable."
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« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2013, 04:58:25 PM »

Quote from: ATB on May 31, 2013, 04:09:52 PM

True, but the public is not the problem (if you don't include all of our collective bad habits). It's the companies and the government that are the problem.  Government never seems to do a good job fixing either of those things.

No, but if they don't realize there's a problem, an attempt will most likely never even be made to fix it.
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« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2013, 04:04:45 AM »

Quote from: ATB on May 31, 2013, 02:59:45 PM


As the only person on this board who has actually been in briefings with California state officials about the health care exchanges, I feel compelled to point out that this Forbes article is deeply misleading. The "rate shock" that most people have been discussing is that the projected rates for the key Silver Plans for people in their 30s, 40s and 50s are lower than expected. The vast majority of insured people, both self- and group-insured, are "Silver" Plans. Almost no one above 40 purchases the equivalent of a "Bronze" plan because they don't cover the sort of care people in those age categories need. Most Bronze plan purchasers will be in their 20s and early 30s.

The example this article hinges on, a 25 year old male self-insuring non-smoker, is an extreme outlier. First, of course they pick a male because for all plans the fact that insurers can no longer discriminate based on gender produces rate improvements for women. Second, very few 25 year olds purchase insurance on the individual market. A 25 year old whose parents are insured can stay on their parents' insurance until the age of 27. Many 25 year olds are still university students, and thus eligible for a student group plan. Many others are eligible for employer-based group plans. None of these people will be impacted by pricing on the exchange or see their situation change dramatically. Third, those who are working and not eligible for a group plan are much more likely to fall into a financial tier that receives premium cost support than an older worker.

The fact is that the average self-insured person in California is between the ages of 30 and 55 and purchases individual coverage equivalent to a "Silver Plan" tier under the new California exchange. The average change in monthly premium prices for individuals in that range varies based on age, but for someone in their early 40s it's about $100 less per month. Of all the Silver Plans covering the key age range, only a handful showed any price increase, most of them around 2%.

Even before the exchanges go into effect the ACA is holding down premium increases. The year before rate hike information reporting and medical loss ratio regulations (which require insurers to spend 85% of premiums on medical care or return the excess money to purchasers), around 75% of plans saw an annual premium increase of more than 10%. Last year only 14% of insurance plans saw an increase of 10% or more.

Millions of young adults between the ages of 22 and 27 are now covered under their parents plans.

Hundreds of thousands of Americans unable to purchase insurance at any price before the ACA was enacted are now covered under the Federally-subsidized High Risk Protection Pool, and in January 2014 will be able to purchase regular health insurance at prevailing market rates just like anyone else.

Hundreds of thousands of children previously unable to receive comprehensive medical insurance due to preexisting conditions are now fully insured.

Billions of dollars have been returned to businesses and individuals due to Medical Loss Ratio rebate requirements.

Senior citizens no longer have to deal with the Medicare drug coverage "donut hole" that put many in a position of choosing between food and medicine.

The solvency of Medicare has already been extended by more than two years, without deep benefit cuts to the program, simply through the implementation of the ACA's Medicare reforms.

In every state to unveil their initial healthcare exchange plans the initial rates for the most commonly purchased plans for ages 30 to 55 have been lower than expected.
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 12:52:53 AM »

Eco with a "You're stupid because you're stupid" reply in 3...2....
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« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 03:06:14 PM »

Another point: even for folks (mostly health young people who are among the 3% to 8% of the market that will purchase individual insurance from an exchange) whose premiums may rise under the ACA, the value of insurance plans under the ACA will be dramatically higher than the value of most plans today. Under the ACA, there will no longer be maximum annual or lifetime benefit caps. Under the ACA, preventative care and examinations will be covered, which are not covered under many health care plans today. Under the ACA, the total amount of out of pocket expenditures will have caps, as well -- and far lower than the cheap high deductible, low premium sort of plans that the Forbes article is discussing.
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2013, 07:07:57 PM »

"Obamacare employer mandate delayed until 2015 to give Democrats breathing room until after 2014 midterm elections"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2354135/Treasury-Department-source-Obamacare-employer-mandate-wait-2015-Democrats-breathing-room-2014-midterm-elections.html#ixzz2Y0jNwlQ3

You couldn't even make shit like this up if you wanted to.  Not fucking surprising.  Maybe this will give those of us who actually give a shit about this a country time to repeal this train wreck of a bill.

CK fell down on his job of posting this headline when it announced (also not surprising as it simply reinforces the incompetence of our pos POTUS).
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2013, 07:58:51 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 07:07:57 PM

CK fell down on his job of posting this headline when it announced (also not surprising as it simply reinforces the incompetence of our pos POTUS).

I'm finding creating headlines about Boehner to be more fun.  I will give you a freebie though for the next time you need one:

Obama:  Putting the POS in POTUS biggrin
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2013, 08:24:32 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 07:07:57 PM

Maybe this will give those of us who actually give a shit about this a country time to repeal this train wreck of a bill.

That'd be awesome!  Then we could keep our current flaming train wreck of a medical system in place without a hiccup.  Yay USA!!
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2013, 08:31:05 PM »

Glad you all had such awesome rebuttals...

Oh wait, that is impossible.
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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2013, 08:31:45 PM »

I'm actually a little curious as to which parts of the bill you feel are particularly onerous.  Or is this just an "it came from Obama so it must be bad" kind of thing?

Also, FTFA:

Quote
A Treasury Department official who declined to be named confirmed to MailOnline on Tuesday that the Obama administration will not begin enforcing employer mandates in the Obamacare law until 2015 - one year later than originally planned - and pinned that change of direction on a combination of politics and economic realities in the marketplace

Interesting how when Treasury officials gave us details on the IRS scandal, you told us that they were completely full of shit.  But now an "unnamed Treasury official" is a shining beacon of truth...because he may (or may not) have said what you want to hear.
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« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2013, 08:44:49 PM »

The argument against the bill is OMGSOCIALISM with a dash of 'companies can't afford it.'

I'm generally extremely libertarian but in the case of healthcare, I can't fathom how our nation can't provide healthcare for all of it's citizens.  While this bill may not be an ideal way (because no ideal way to pay for something we've never paid for exists), it's the only one that's gotten passed and needs to happen.  It's frankly fucking embarrassing that it's taken us this long (and now, longer).
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« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 08:51:12 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 03, 2013, 08:31:45 PM

I'm actually a little curious as to which parts of the bill you feel are particularly onerous.  Or is this just an "it came from Obama so it must be bad" kind of thing?

Also, FTFA:

Quote
A Treasury Department official who declined to be named confirmed to MailOnline on Tuesday that the Obama administration will not begin enforcing employer mandates in the Obamacare law until 2015 - one year later than originally planned - and pinned that change of direction on a combination of politics and economic realities in the marketplace

Interesting how when Treasury officials gave us details on the IRS scandal, you told us that they were completely full of shit.  But now an "unnamed Treasury official" is a shining beacon of truth...because he may (or may not) have said what you want to hear.


Comedy gold.

Gratch, has the mandate been delayed?

I could care less who informed us first that the bullshit mandate is being delayed.  It is an explicit example of how politically unpopular the bill will actually be once it's fully implemented.
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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 09:21:58 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 08:51:12 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 03, 2013, 08:31:45 PM

I'm actually a little curious as to which parts of the bill you feel are particularly onerous.  Or is this just an "it came from Obama so it must be bad" kind of thing?

Also, FTFA:

Quote
A Treasury Department official who declined to be named confirmed to MailOnline on Tuesday that the Obama administration will not begin enforcing employer mandates in the Obamacare law until 2015 - one year later than originally planned - and pinned that change of direction on a combination of politics and economic realities in the marketplace

Interesting how when Treasury officials gave us details on the IRS scandal, you told us that they were completely full of shit.  But now an "unnamed Treasury official" is a shining beacon of truth...because he may (or may not) have said what you want to hear.


Comedy gold.

Gratch, has the mandate been delayed?

Yes.  No one ever said it hadn't.  Hell, I'll even agree with you that the reasoning is probably bullshit political posturing.  Happy?

Quote
I could care less who informed us first that the bullshit mandate is being delayed.  It is an explicit example of how politically unpopular the bill will actually be once it's fully implemented.

Was just making an observation that I found humorous, nothing more.

Interesting that you completely dodge the question about what parts of the bill you don't like, though.  Makes me wonder if you have any idea other than "OBAMA BAD!!"
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2013, 09:33:01 PM »

While Eco-Logic continues his victory lap celebrating this breaking news that the individual mandate portion of Affordable Care Act will not be enforced until 2015, let's all take a moment to remember that the law was specifically written to forbid any enforcement mechanism at all.

Quote from: The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act
(g) ADMINISTRATION AND PROCEDURE
(1) IN GENERAL
The penalty provided by this section shall be paid upon notice and demand by the Secretary, and except as provided in paragraph (2), shall be assessed and collected in the same manner as an assessable penalty under subchapter B of chapter 68.

(2) SPECIAL RULES
Notwithstanding any other provision of law—
(A) WAIVER OF CRIMINAL PENALTIES
In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.

(B) LIMITATIONS ON LIENS AND LEVIES
The Secretary shall not—
(i) file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section, or

(ii) levy on any such property with respect to such failure.



What that florid section there means is that the Affordable Healthcare Act doesn't simply omit mention of consequences for refusing to pay the individual penalties -- it explicitly states that there are no legal or financial consequences whatsoever.  Eco-Logic is literally celebrating a delay in the date when the federal government will continue *not* enforcing an individual mandate to carry personal insurance.

This isn't new news, by the way -- it's been an oft-discussed element of the bill since the day it was passed.

But hey: the guy's gotta take his victories where he can find them, I guess.  Oh hold on...I think he's circling around again.

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 09:35:09 PM by Autistic Angel » Logged
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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2013, 11:16:02 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 03, 2013, 09:21:58 PM

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 08:51:12 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 03, 2013, 08:31:45 PM

I'm actually a little curious as to which parts of the bill you feel are particularly onerous.  Or is this just an "it came from Obama so it must be bad" kind of thing?

Also, FTFA:

Quote
A Treasury Department official who declined to be named confirmed to MailOnline on Tuesday that the Obama administration will not begin enforcing employer mandates in the Obamacare law until 2015 - one year later than originally planned - and pinned that change of direction on a combination of politics and economic realities in the marketplace

Interesting how when Treasury officials gave us details on the IRS scandal, you told us that they were completely full of shit.  But now an "unnamed Treasury official" is a shining beacon of truth...because he may (or may not) have said what you want to hear.


Comedy gold.

Gratch, has the mandate been delayed?

Yes.  No one ever said it hadn't.  Hell, I'll even agree with you that the reasoning is probably bullshit political posturing.  Happy?

Quote
I could care less who informed us first that the bullshit mandate is being delayed.  It is an explicit example of how politically unpopular the bill will actually be once it's fully implemented.

Was just making an observation that I found humorous, nothing more.

Interesting that you completely dodge the question about what parts of the bill you don't like, though.  Makes me wonder if you have any idea other than "OBAMA BAD!!"

I  hardly like any parts of the bill, which I'm sure isn't surprising.  I didn't dodge the question though, I just won't take the time to dissect the many things wrong with the bill, especially for this forum.

Plus I've a feeling that even the "media sources" you all value so much will provide you with ample reasons in the coming weeks/months.

I can't help but feel like a "rubber necker" when watching this administration...
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2013, 11:52:24 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 11:16:02 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 03, 2013, 09:21:58 PM

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 08:51:12 PM

Quote from: Gratch on July 03, 2013, 08:31:45 PM

I'm actually a little curious as to which parts of the bill you feel are particularly onerous.  Or is this just an "it came from Obama so it must be bad" kind of thing?

Also, FTFA:

Quote
A Treasury Department official who declined to be named confirmed to MailOnline on Tuesday that the Obama administration will not begin enforcing employer mandates in the Obamacare law until 2015 - one year later than originally planned - and pinned that change of direction on a combination of politics and economic realities in the marketplace

Interesting how when Treasury officials gave us details on the IRS scandal, you told us that they were completely full of shit.  But now an "unnamed Treasury official" is a shining beacon of truth...because he may (or may not) have said what you want to hear.


Comedy gold.

Gratch, has the mandate been delayed?

Yes.  No one ever said it hadn't.  Hell, I'll even agree with you that the reasoning is probably bullshit political posturing.  Happy?

Quote
I could care less who informed us first that the bullshit mandate is being delayed.  It is an explicit example of how politically unpopular the bill will actually be once it's fully implemented.

Was just making an observation that I found humorous, nothing more.

Interesting that you completely dodge the question about what parts of the bill you don't like, though.  Makes me wonder if you have any idea other than "OBAMA BAD!!"

I  hardly like any parts of the bill, which I'm sure isn't surprising.  I didn't dodge the question though, I just won't take the time to dissect the many things wrong with the bill, especially for this forum.

Plus I've a feeling that even the "media sources" you all value so much will provide you with ample reasons in the coming weeks/months.

I can't help but feel like a "rubber necker" when watching this administration...

LOL, wasn't asking for a dissertation...just a bullet point or two (other than "CUZ OBAMA!" or "OMGSOSHALIZM!") as to why you actually think ACA is a bad idea.  You know, a sign that you've actually given it a thought outside of Drudge Report headlines.

But since you've reverted to the "you're all liberal poopyheads" defense, I suppose that was asking for too much.
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2013, 11:58:32 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 11:16:02 PM

I  hardly like any parts of the bill, which I'm sure isn't surprising.  I didn't dodge the question though, I just won't take the time to dissect the many things wrong with the bill, especially for this forum.

Plus I've a feeling that even the "media sources" you all value so much will provide you with ample reasons in the coming weeks/months.

I can't help but feel like a "rubber necker" when watching this administration...


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You tell 'em, Eco-Logic!  You tell the world!

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No enforcement mechanism.  Seriously.
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« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2013, 12:36:18 AM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 11:16:02 PM

I didn't dodge the question though, I just won't take the time to dissect the many things wrong with the bill

LOL.
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« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2013, 03:23:34 AM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 11:16:02 PM

Plus I've a feeling that even the "media sources" you all value so much will provide you with ample reasons in the coming weeks/months.

You quoted the Daily Mail, a paper that is the equivalent of the National Enquirer in England?! As a supposed Arsenal supporter, you should know what a crap paper you just quoted. I am guessing you read all their football gossip and treat that as the gospel as well?
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« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2013, 03:42:10 AM »

Quote from: Lee on July 04, 2013, 03:23:34 AM

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 03, 2013, 11:16:02 PM

Plus I've a feeling that even the "media sources" you all value so much will provide you with ample reasons in the coming weeks/months.

You quoted the Daily Mail, a paper that is the equivalent of the National Enquirer in England?! As a supposed Arsenal supporter, you should know what a crap paper you just quoted. I am guessing you read all their football gossip and treat that as the gospel as well?

Lee, was the quote inaccurate? 

I agree it's a crap paper, I simply grabbed the first headline (from Drudge) I saw regarding the delay.  The source of the quote is completely irrelevant.  It was all over every news channel today.  Unless you're aware of the mandate no longer being delayed...
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« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2013, 04:18:19 AM »

It's accurate in that the plan is delayed, it's pushing a political viewpoint to further it's own agenda as to why.

You act as the left has questionable "media sources" that they follow for information, while pushing a "media source" that pushes your agenda that is questionable at best. If you are going to claim a higher ground, you should probably look for better sources.
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« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2013, 12:13:54 PM »

Really far stretch in this case Lee, as a baboon would agree there is no way this move wasn't political.

I copied the first link on Drudge...  It wouldn't have mattered if it was from Paris Hilton's tumblr...

I'm confident you can find this story on any news site today.

Here's another
Employer Mandate? Never Mind
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323899704578583493972896364.html
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« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2013, 03:11:39 PM »

You are posting editorials as news Eco. Editorials are opinions.

Fact: parts of the medical plan is being delayed. Any reason, other than the one that was given, is opinion (which both the articles you posted are). Fine, it's political, my objection is that you act like your media sources are somehow better than what a liberal will site. Posting editorials that support your opinion does make them facts.

Here's a well written article that gets into the details of what has been happening from the Economist.
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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2013, 07:31:23 PM »

I understand your logic.

However, the fact is that one of the main components of the bill is being delayed until after the election.  That is blatant politics.

I could care less about editorial opinions  on this issue.  I didn't even ready the wsj article and only posted it to illustrate the fact that this story can be found anywhere.  If anyone is naive enough to think the reason isn't political they're beyond help.
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« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2013, 12:13:43 AM »

I love watching Eco get repeatedly schooled by folks on a forum he says is full of stupid people.  He's like a toddler trying to explain gravity to an adult.   icon_lol
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