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Author Topic: Zimmerman / Martin Thread?  (Read 3412 times)
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« Reply #120 on: July 19, 2013, 08:57:15 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 19, 2013, 07:39:18 PM

i fear you can't be helped.

How very true. It's pretty much impossible to help someone who doesn't need help.

You, on the other hand...
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« Reply #121 on: July 19, 2013, 10:46:37 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on July 19, 2013, 12:02:25 AM

Quote
JUROR: It became very confusing. We had stuff thrown at us. We had the second-degree murder charge, the manslaughter charge, then we had self-defense, stand your ground, and I think there was one other one.


This person is admittedly confused, throwing out terms without regards to understanding them.

Quote
JUROR: Right. Well, because of the heat of the moment and the stand your ground. He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right.


The right to defend yourself is not Stand Your Ground. This juror is describing basic self-defense laws. SYG just means you don't have to retreat. But if Zimmerman is being held down that was never an option, therefore irrelevant to this case. Which is why he never used it as a defense.


You seem to be confusing two separate elements of the "Stand Your Ground" law.  The level of deliberate misinformation being circulated about this case is so overwhelming, I'm going to assume it's an earnest misunderstanding.

The SYG legislation made a couple important modifications to Florida's existing self defense laws.  One, it added a clause immunizing individuals from prosecution, arrest, or even temporary detainment unless police determine there is probable cause to believe self-defense was not an issue:

Quote from: Florida Statute 776.032
Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.


This potential immunity from prosecution is the element of the law that Zimmerman's defense team did not invoke, and the part that people are furiously pointing to when they say that his lawyers "never used Stand Your Ground!"


Other parts of SYG were inserted directly into Florida's existing self-defense law, empowering people to exercise lethal force any time the feel threatened by great bodily harm:

Quote from: Florida Statute 776.013
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


This part of the law was argued *extensively* by the defense team.  Zimmerman can be heard on the 911 tape swearing, clearly agitated, running around trying to find the "suspicious black male" he was calling police about.  Depending on which version of his story you believe, this was after Trayvon was circling his locked car in a threatening manner.  You cannot claim self defense from a dangerous situation you purposefully inserted yourself into...unless you're in a SYG state where the more "threatened" you "feel," the greater the leeway you have for shooting your way back out.

This part of the SYG was also included in the jury instructions:

Quote from: Miami Herald
Zimmerman waived his right to the Stand Your Ground immunity hearing, a pre-trial event that’s not spelled out in statute. But he was afforded the protections of Stand Your Ground, which is embedded in Florida’s self-defense laws. Its language, found in statute 776.013, was tailored to the Zimmerman trial’s jury instructions and said the following:

“If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

Despite the language on the jury-instruction form and B37’s comments about Stand Your Ground, some commentators have said it had nothing to do with the case because it was a standard self-defense case.

But Stand Your Ground is standard self defense in Florida.


When George Zimmerman argued that chasing after a person be believed to be dangerous constituted self-defense, he was arguing SYG.  The judge included SYG in the jury instructions.  Juror B37 cited SYG as her reason for acquitting George Zimmerman.

If you would like to explore what a dull-witted, gullible, and opportunistic person Juror B37 appears to be, let's have at it.  But it's time to stop debating whether or not SYG was an element in this case.

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« Reply #122 on: July 22, 2013, 04:32:32 PM »

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/a/SB10001424052702303302504577323691134926300?mg=reno64-wsj

Fantastic article that is spot on...
 

"The absurdity of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton is that they want to make a movement out of an anomaly. Black teenagers today are afraid of other black teenagers, not whites."

Also, you can try and make Stand Your Ground a part of this case.  The FACT remains that it ACTUALLY wasn't.
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« Reply #123 on: July 22, 2013, 04:59:04 PM »

This is the best piece I've read on the case:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/113966/barack-obama-trayvon-martin-statement-most-significant-race-statement#

From the article:

But I tried to learn, and what I have learned since then, in researching my first book about race, and keeping an eye on the issues after that, is that the perception of black men as inherently criminal is what most black people really mean by “racism” when they talk about its prevalence. Most can discuss more statistical manifestations on reflection, but what really sits in the gut is cases like Amadou Diallo, Sean Bell, Oscar Grant, and now Martin. Or, the related experiences that black men have that Obama mentioned having had himself, such as being trailed in stores or watching white women tensing up as they pass.

This stuff is real. It’s raw. Testament to this daily kind of racist dismissal of black men is considered an urgent task of public discussion of the black condition. No one who understands this could possibly condone, for example, the vastly overreaching policy on stop-and-frisks in New York City. Should the police pay as much attention to the Upper East Side as Bedford-Stuyvesant? Of course not. But should most brown-skinned adolescents in a neighborhood expect to be stopped by usually surly cops for no reason? Say yes and you have no right to wonder why you get generation after generation of young men who feel alienated from their own society–which in fact makes Obama's consideration of Ray Kelly to lead the Department of Homeland Security decidedly more ungainly at this point.
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« Reply #124 on: July 22, 2013, 05:25:11 PM »

I agree that the premise of the article you quote is tragic, and something needs to change.


I personally feel the change that is required is at the FAMILY/community level.  It's a wide-spread, rampant issue and difficult to discuss/bring up...  The statistics don't lie though, and African Americans that are outspoken on this issue have my direct attention. 

Fireball, I welcome an open discussion on this, but I fear the environment here likely won't allow it.  The first one that calls me racist or a bigot is even more of an ignorant douche than I originally thought (said based on the last time I brought up this issue).
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« Reply #125 on: July 22, 2013, 05:44:22 PM »

The issue is not that folks won't discuss this with you like adults, it's that at some point during ANY discussion with you on ANY topic in this section of GT, you will eventually veer off on a rant about how Obama (or democrats in general) is the antichrist, anyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot, or (usually) a combo of both bon mots.

So, before you start condemning everyone else here of creating a toxic environment, take a long, hard look at your own posting history as to why that may be.

P.S. point out the thread where you were called a racist.  I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I'm just thinking there's more to that story than you think.
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« Reply #126 on: July 22, 2013, 06:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 05:25:11 PM

I personally feel the change that is required is at the FAMILY/community level.  It's a wide-spread, rampant issue and difficult to discuss/bring up...  The statistics don't lie though, and African Americans that are outspoken on this issue have my direct attention.  

I think the issue is that you seem to be trying to frame it as solely an African American problem when it's really not.  It is certainly a poverty/disenfranchisement issue, but that is not entirely unique to the black community.

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 05:44:22 PM

P.S. point out the thread where you were called a racist.  I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I'm just thinking there's more to that story than you think.

I'm guessing he's talking about this thread which, well...see my post above.
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« Reply #127 on: July 22, 2013, 06:11:04 PM »

I've no doubt that I've come across as intolerant to left leaning views, and I accept that.  I've probably been more intolerant here than I actually am even...


The time I mentioned the inner city African American, no dads present issue, I wasn't quiet called a racist, but the point was dismissed here.  It is a real fucking issue, rather or not you or those on the left want to admit it.

Also, I'd love an opportunity to not bring up Obama in threads such as this, but my red headed carrot top loon, he brought himself into this issue when he shouldn't have and that isn't my fault.
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« Reply #128 on: July 22, 2013, 06:30:19 PM »

No, but it is your fault for being so blind to anything but your own unfounded rage that you failed to understand WHY he inserted himself into the situation.  I attempted to explain it a few posts back but apparently I didn't dumb it down enough for you.
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« Reply #129 on: July 22, 2013, 07:10:22 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 06:30:19 PM

No, but it is your fault for being so blind to anything but your own unfounded rage that you failed to understand WHY he inserted himself into the situation.  I attempted to explain it a few posts back but apparently I didn't dumb it down enough for you.

Please reiterate, as I read many, if not all of your posts in this thread (many of which were a lame ass attempt at humor, which I appreciate if applied appropriately).

If your claim is that Zimmerman inserted himself into the situation due to Martin's race, then, not only do I not have anything for you, but no one with a brain does.
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« Reply #130 on: July 22, 2013, 07:29:53 PM »

Pay attention.  You said Obama inserted himself into the case in your previous reply.  Zimmerman wasn't even brought up.  If you can't be bothered to read even your own posts, what chance does anyone else have?
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« Reply #131 on: July 22, 2013, 08:10:48 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 07:29:53 PM

Pay attention.  You said Obama inserted himself into the case in your previous reply.  Zimmerman wasn't even brought up.  If you can't be bothered to read even your own posts, what chance does anyone else have?
Not following liberal logic, or may just not hep logic today, but you absofucking lost me with your last response.
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« Reply #132 on: July 22, 2013, 08:20:08 PM »

GZ helps a family in a car wreck.  

No mention of the family's color in the article so we can assume they were white or 'white hispanic' otherwise it would be front page news with a photo expose.

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« Reply #133 on: July 22, 2013, 08:37:09 PM »

And as to "why" the POTUS inserted himself into this case, he shouldn't have and any of your fucking rumblings make no difference on that point.

He simple shouldn't have.

I've received a handful of messages asking me to bring up the African American teenager that shot the baby, I'd decided not to as i do feel it "trivializes the issue"but your recent shenanigans made it easier for me.




Honestly, we could post pictures all day long.  There isn't a valid reason, other than agenda pushing and race bating, that the "POTUS" should have made any response to this case.

The same can be said for Sharpton and Jackson, they need to just shrivel up and disappear.  Their time has passed, and they aren't close to being the civil rights "leaders" they're attempting to emulate...  They've done more harm than good and race relations and the brain cells of those that listen to them are the victims.
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« Reply #134 on: July 22, 2013, 08:49:58 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 08:10:48 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 07:29:53 PM

Pay attention.  You said Obama inserted himself into the case in your previous reply.  Zimmerman wasn't even brought up.  If you can't be bothered to read even your own posts, what chance does anyone else have?
Not following liberal logic, or may just not hep logic today, but you absofucking lost me with your last response.

It's actually logic you have trouble with (i'm guessing you chose your forum name as an ironic play on that failing).  Doesn't matter where it's coming from.

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 06:11:04 PM

I've no doubt that I've come across as intolerant to left leaning views, and I accept that.  I've probably been more intolerant here than I actually am even...


The time I mentioned the inner city African American, no dads present issue, I wasn't quiet called a racist, but the point was dismissed here.  It is a real fucking issue, rather or not you or those on the left want to admit it.

Also, I'd love an opportunity to not bring up Obama in threads such as this, but my red headed carrot top loon, he brought himself into this issue when he shouldn't have and that isn't my fault.

I'd tell you to go back and reread my post on why he inserted himself, but as we've established, you aren't really that good with logic.

p.s  the reason Obama isn't speaking up everytime there's a murder in this country and the killer is black is simple:  he absolutely hates all white people.  you've found out the truth!  congratulations!  The african american conspiracy has suffered a fatal blow today thanks to anonymous internet poster Eco-Logic.  

You are one of life's winners.
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« Reply #135 on: July 22, 2013, 08:59:58 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 08:37:09 PM

I've received a handful of messages asking me to bring up the African American teenager that shot the baby, I'd decided not to as i do feel it "trivializes the issue"but your recent shenanigans made it easier for me.

So you honestly think this and the Zimmerman/Martin encounters are equivalent situations?
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« Reply #136 on: July 22, 2013, 09:03:44 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 22, 2013, 08:59:58 PM

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 08:37:09 PM

I've received a handful of messages asking me to bring up the African American teenager that shot the baby, I'd decided not to as i do feel it "trivializes the issue"but your recent shenanigans made it easier for me.

So you honestly think this and the Zimmerman/Martin encounters are equivalent situations?

Obama also hasn't mentioned the recent plane crash that killed so many Asians.  

HE HATES ASIANS, LOVES KILLER PLANES!

I'm laughing out loud at the attempt by Eco to portray himself as a spokesperson now.  "I've received a handful of messages"   icon_lol
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« Reply #137 on: July 22, 2013, 09:28:34 PM »

 Bring your own!
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« Reply #138 on: July 22, 2013, 09:59:25 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 08:49:58 PM

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 08:10:48 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 07:29:53 PM

Pay attention.  You said Obama inserted himself into the case in your previous reply.  Zimmerman wasn't even brought up.  If you can't be bothered to read even your own posts, what chance does anyone else have?
Not following liberal logic, or may just not hep logic today, but you absofucking lost me with your last response.

It's actually logic you have trouble with (i'm guessing you chose your forum name as an ironic play on that failing).  Doesn't matter where it's coming from.

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 06:11:04 PM

I've no doubt that I've come across as intolerant to left leaning views, and I accept that.  I've probably been more intolerant here than I actually am even...


The time I mentioned the inner city African American, no dads present issue, I wasn't quiet called a racist, but the point was dismissed here.  It is a real fucking issue, rather or not you or those on the left want to admit it.

Also, I'd love an opportunity to not bring up Obama in threads such as this, but my red headed carrot top loon, he brought himself into this issue when he shouldn't have and that isn't my fault.

I'd tell you to go back and reread my post on why he inserted himself, but as we've established, you aren't really that good with logic.

p.s  the reason Obama isn't speaking up everytime there's a murder in this country and the killer is black is simple:  he absolutely hates all white people.  you've found out the truth!  congratulations!  The african american conspiracy has suffered a fatal blow today thanks to anonymous internet poster Eco-Logic. 

You are one of life's winners.

You haz won da thred.

Holy shit you're a perfect specimen of outright liberal lunacy.  I.E. attempting to divert with stale ass humor with no basis in anything actually being discussed. 

Instead of spouting your lame ass bullshit, how about putting two sentences together and explaining to us why this president decided to comment on this case.  A case that any legal mind worth a damn agrees shouldn't have even been brought to trial, much taken to the circus level it was taken.
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« Reply #139 on: July 22, 2013, 10:04:15 PM »

You mean like I already did AND told you about more than once today?  

It's even funnier when you realize that the post linked above WAS IMMEDIATELY BELOW ONE OF YOURS.   icon_lol

edit:  time to self edit.  I'm pretty sure most folks share my opinion of Eco around here, so there's no reason for me to be so harsh on him.  
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« Reply #140 on: July 22, 2013, 10:09:03 PM »

Quote from: Eco-Logic on July 22, 2013, 09:59:25 PM

Instead of spouting your lame ass bullshit, how about putting two sentences together and explaining to us why this president decided to comment on this case.  

See above...please do try and keep up.

Quote
I've received a handful of messages asking me to bring up the African American teenager that shot the baby,

Apparently all the other conservatives on this board are such shrinking violets that they need Eco to be their voice.  

Still waiting to hear how that situation is equivalent to the Zimmerman case.  Sounds to me like it was a pretty clear-cut case of an evil asshole doing evil asshole things with horribly tragic results for which he was caught and arrested.  Failing to see how that even remotely parallels what happened between Zimmerman and Martin, other than the fact that one was white-hispanic and one was black.
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« Reply #141 on: July 22, 2013, 10:37:04 PM »

This thread is like a time capsule of late 90's early 2000's internet arguing.
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« Reply #142 on: July 22, 2013, 10:42:44 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 22, 2013, 10:37:04 PM

This thread is like a time capsule of late 90's early 2000's internet arguing.

With that post it is.
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« Reply #143 on: July 22, 2013, 11:00:16 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 22, 2013, 10:42:44 PM

Quote from: ATB on July 22, 2013, 10:37:04 PM

This thread is like a time capsule of late 90's early 2000's internet arguing.

With that post it is.

in the year 3000 we'll all look back and laugh.
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« Reply #144 on: July 22, 2013, 11:03:44 PM »

James Woods weighed in:

Quote
James Woods, one of Hollywood’s best-known actors, took to Twitter over the weekend to decry President Obama’s impromptu defense of Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old killed by George Zimmerman in self-defense in Florida, and suggested that race was not an issue in the acquittal.

Mr. Obama’s statements on Friday: “When Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is, ‘Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago.’”

And Mr. Woods‘ tweeted response: “Just curious. Does the president of the United States have any advice for other teenage boys in America? Wounded warriors for example,” Newsmax reported.

Another tweet from Mr. Woods: “The only reason people lock their car doors when Obama walks by is they are afraid he’ll tax them to death."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/22/actor-james-woods-takes-twitter-trash-obamas-pro-t/
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« Reply #145 on: July 22, 2013, 11:04:24 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on July 22, 2013, 11:03:44 PM

James Woods weighed in:

Quote
James Woods, one of Hollywood’s best-known actors, took to Twitter over the weekend to decry President Obama’s impromptu defense of Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old killed by George Zimmerman in self-defense in Florida, and suggested that race was not an issue in the acquittal.

Mr. Obama’s statements on Friday: “When Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son. Another way of saying that is, ‘Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago.’”

And Mr. Woods‘ tweeted response: “Just curious. Does the president of the United States have any advice for other teenage boys in America? Wounded warriors for example,” Newsmax reported.

Another tweet from Mr. Woods: “The only reason people lock their car doors when Obama walks by is they are afraid he’ll tax them to death."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/22/actor-james-woods-takes-twitter-trash-obamas-pro-t/

ah, James Woods..... he must have taken a break from his hectic schedule biggrin
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« Reply #146 on: July 22, 2013, 11:12:52 PM »

Whew.  I was really torn on what to think, but now that JAMES WOODS has weighed in, I feel comfortable decrying Obama.
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« Reply #147 on: July 22, 2013, 11:23:33 PM »

Quote from: ATB on July 22, 2013, 10:37:04 PM

This thread is like a time capsule of late 90's early 2000's internet arguing.

Something something Hitler something.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2013, 11:37:09 PM »

Quote from: gellar on July 22, 2013, 11:23:33 PM

Quote from: ATB on July 22, 2013, 10:37:04 PM

This thread is like a time capsule of late 90's early 2000's internet arguing.

Something something Hitler something.

this thread wouldn't be complete without a detailed explanation of Godwin's law.
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Because I can,
also because I don't care what you want.
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« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2013, 11:40:39 PM »

Screw all this noise.  Anyone watch true blood last night.   icon_eek
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Just remember: once a user figures out gluten noting them they're allowed to make fun of you. - Ceekay speaking in tongues.
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