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Author Topic: Go to church..live longer...?  (Read 3803 times)
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Scuzz
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« on: November 22, 2008, 12:46:39 AM »

http://www.buffalo.edu/ubreporter/archives/vol37/vol37n45/articles/HolmesLecture.html

The study examined the effect of church participation on life expectancy and found that the average churchgoer lives seven years longer than a person who does not regularly attend services. In African-Americans, the increase in lifespan is 14 years. Furthermore, Holmes said even longer life expectancies were reported in those who combined volunteer activities with church attendance.

I will see you at church this Sunday........  Roll Eyes

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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 01:05:15 AM »

From the first paragraph of the "article":

Quote
A movement is gaining momentum in modern medicine—whole person health care—that expands the definition of health beyond the physical to include social, psychological and spiritual well-being.

A movement?  What movement?  Among whom, exactly?  What do you mean by momentum?  How much?

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CeeKay
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« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 02:00:25 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on November 22, 2008, 12:46:39 AM

I will see you at church this Sunday........  Roll Eyes



I'll be there!


robbing the collection plate and getting hammered on that blood stuff.....
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« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2008, 03:59:33 AM »

Ever listen to the older folks in your church?  "My Bunions" this and "My Prostate" that... Folks, they exchange health care stories.  A quite significant number of them.  They are in effect swapping survival strategies.   When you can advantage yourself of information what doctors to see and how to treat something you may develop, you network for solutions to what is killing you early.

A Pious life is a fine thing in and of itself, but it's not some deep mystery of good health.


And where can I get funding for my next study?  if this passes muster, I want to be paid for something equally valueless 
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« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2008, 04:14:35 AM »

News flash! Churchgoers tend toward healthier lifestyles! Prayer at 11.
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Lee
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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2008, 04:40:29 AM »

A friend of mine was telling me all about his church. It just sounded like a place people go to gossip and judge other people for not being as righteous as they are.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2008, 06:16:39 AM »

Quote from: Lee on November 22, 2008, 04:40:29 AM

A friend of mine was telling me all about his church. It just sounded like a place people go to gossip and judge other people for not being as righteous as they are.

don't forget they have wine and cookies!
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Lee
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« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2008, 06:48:52 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on November 22, 2008, 06:16:39 AM

Quote from: Lee on November 22, 2008, 04:40:29 AM

A friend of mine was telling me all about his church. It just sounded like a place people go to gossip and judge other people for not being as righteous as they are.

don't forget they have wine and cookies!

He wasn't Catholic.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 07:10:31 AM »

Quote from: Lee on November 22, 2008, 06:48:52 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on November 22, 2008, 06:16:39 AM

Quote from: Lee on November 22, 2008, 04:40:29 AM

A friend of mine was telling me all about his church. It just sounded like a place people go to gossip and judge other people for not being as righteous as they are.

don't forget they have wine and cookies!

He wasn't Catholic.

oh... was it like this?
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 03:51:17 PM »

Quote from: Lee on November 22, 2008, 04:40:29 AM

A friend of mine was telling me all about his church. It just sounded like a place people go to gossip and judge other people for not being as righteous as they are.

When I was a kid, it was about social standing. You had to show up often enough to look like part of the community...and we knew each other's status by the finery we wore and the cars we arrived in.
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« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 10:59:21 AM »

It's bunk.  Not to mention the data is very suspect.  Who funded it?  Who did that study/research?  How was it controlled for?  What were the parameters of the study?  How widespread was it, and were the results of the study replicated?  The scientific method doesn't just require a study, it requires that the study be replicated by other scientists.  Also lot of times there are initial studies done to test the feasibility of doing a larger study.  These early studies aren't trickery, instead they're just deliberately small and sometimes less controlled just to get a quick look.  However, the media and other people with agendas will often look at these quick studies and then present them as more than that.

Case in point, remember how the media a few years back where talking about how Mozart/classical music seems to make you smarter?  That was everywhere for a while.  Turns out that was just a small initial study to see if it's worth pursuing.  When they followed up with a larger, more well controlled study, in the words of the scientist who created the study, the results were: "bupkis".  There was no correlation.

It's like saying that people who had only cell phones and no land lines were more likely to have voted for Obama.

That "doctor" who is telling people to convert should either leave his religion out of scientific health care or be fired.

I see doctors recommending religion almost the same way as a con artist peddling some miracle cancer cure to a sick patient, there's an agenda beyond the patient's well being.  It's also just like those people trying to sneak in religion into public schools where it has no place via intelligent design.

The article mentions that the doctor said that some studies showed that people got better when prayed for, others showed that they did not.  This is misleading, the vast majority of well controlled studies have shown that prayer does nothing, enough so that the other studies that showed there was an effect can be ruled out via random chance.

Also note that just being part of a religion or religious doesn't instantly mean that's the magical reason why people live longer.  Remember, correlation does not equal causation.  It may be that certain religions have requirements, mental conditioning, or lifestyles that add to their lifespans.  For example, strict Jewish people do not eat pork, a pretty fatty meat along with a lot of other things, a lot are vegetarians, and in general they have diet restrictions that might make them eat healthier.

If you want followers to your religion, convert them without tricks or preying on their health fears.

Any benefits from joining a religion could likely be replicated by simply disciplining yourself.  So, I'll see you at the gym, or at the supermarket shopping for healthy foods.
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« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2008, 01:01:48 PM »

Even IF it were true, I'd rather die younger than have to spend all those days in church services.  Been there, done that, never again.
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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 05:27:30 AM »

Tending to a person's psychosocial needs ain't a new concept. As far as the OP goes...hrmm, plus seven years, 14 if I'm black...ya know I recall seeing a gentlemen on the TV offering me ETERNAL LIFE if I just sent him some cash. Boy did I miss out on that opportunity!
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Scuzz
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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 04:45:59 PM »

The main reason I brought this up was because of how annoyingly it was presented by a local TV station. The local early news station does about 3-4 minutes of "health" news every night just before the weather and the sports. The items used in the segment are often things like this. Some researcher reports some strange tidbit of quasi-research about smoking, heart health, pregnancy etc. The station shows the same stock footage of fat people or pregnant women or people smoking and then they move on.

This item caught my attention and I just had to find it on the internet. The article explains nothing. At least from what I could tell. The ideas presented in earlier posts actually do make some sense but are still just guesses.
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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2008, 04:50:39 PM »

 icon_lol

Wow, someone mentions church and you guys can't hit the posting buttons fast enough to tell the world how much you hate it and what's wrong with it.  Take a step back and read the thread - the only post remotely on topic was Ironrods comment about churchgoers generally living healthier lives.  Everyone else was scrambling to get the wittiest put down for churches. 

We get it, guys.  You don't have to feel compelled to post about it every time.  (even you, CK).
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Blackadar
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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 05:03:32 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 26, 2008, 04:50:39 PM

icon_lol

Wow, someone mentions church and you guys can't hit the posting buttons fast enough to tell the world how much you hate it and what's wrong with it.  Take a step back and read the thread - the only post remotely on topic was Ironrods comment about churchgoers generally living healthier lives.  Everyone else was scrambling to get the wittiest put down for churches. 

We get it, guys.  You don't have to feel compelled to post about it every time.  (even you, CK).

Wow, there were 13 posts in 5 days.  Yep, they were sure coming fast and furious!   retard

My whole take is a big "whatever".  The study is just mentioned casually in the article with no details whatsoever, so there isn't really enough to comment on.
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2008, 02:47:25 AM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 26, 2008, 04:50:39 PM

Everyone else was scrambling to get the wittiest put down for churches. 

Actually the majority of posts are not put downs at all. I merely commented on what a friend tells me about his church (and he isn't the first).
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CeeKay
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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2008, 04:54:31 AM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 26, 2008, 04:50:39 PM

We get it, guys.  You don't have to feel compelled to post about it every time.  (even you, CK).

what do you have against wine and cookies?
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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2008, 05:42:48 AM »

If you could isolate it, you would find that connectedness to a group is the beneficial factor. I'm too lazy to dig up cites but I'm pretty sure that's been amply demonstrated already. A church is a strong and durable social group. Therefore, churchgoers enjoy longer lives -- probably healthier, too.

If you are specifically trying to measure the value of religion on longevity, you'd need to compare churchgoers with Elks, Kiwanis, Masons, Obamaniacs, or any other group that people actively support and identify with strongly.
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Jeff
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2008, 04:17:19 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 26, 2008, 04:50:39 PM

icon_lol

Wow, someone mentions church and you guys can't hit the posting buttons fast enough to tell the world how much you hate it and what's wrong with it.  Take a step back and read the thread - the only post remotely on topic was Ironrods comment about churchgoers generally living healthier lives.  Everyone else was scrambling to get the wittiest put down for churches. 

We get it, guys.  You don't have to feel compelled to post about it every time.  (even you, CK).

And what you do, nearly every time, is frantically hit your 'posting button' in a kneejerk reaction to try and paint anyone opposed to your precious institution as a frothing-at-the-mouth militant.

"Church" and religion don't get a free pass anymore than political issues or sports franchises. I'm not sure why so many Christians feel their institutions should be off-limits from opposing thoughts and views. Trying to paint those opposed to your ideas as being in some sort of zealot-frenzy is a pretty transparent strategy (ad hominem)

I can't believe you can come here and chastize Ceekay for posting on this subject.

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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2008, 04:49:03 PM »

 icon_lol

But Jeff, you are a frothing at the mouth militant!

Seriously though, I'm not sure what 'nearly every time' means to you, but I generally skip past the anti-Christian threads of the week.  In this one I was simply struck by the fact that so many people were interested in taking shots at church, when the point of the thread was the alleged correlation between church going and longevity.  Most people missed that part and simply decided to bash churches, some in a particularly immature and offensive manner (ridiculing communion, etc).

If you felt this thread was full of interesting 'opposing thoughts and views', then congratulations to you!  Perhaps you could consider me one of them.
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2008, 05:38:59 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 28, 2008, 04:49:03 PM

In this one I was simply struck by the fact that so many people were interested in taking shots at church, when the point of the thread was the alleged correlation between church going and longevity.  Most people missed that part and simply decided to bash churches, some in a particularly immature and offensive manner (ridiculing communion, etc).

By so many people you mean CK right? Maybe I missed it, but no one else took a shot.
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2008, 08:03:25 PM »

Are we supposed to treat a 10-year old study as some sort of breaking news?

Clearly some people here would prefer that we draw one conclusion from this:  that church attendance increases life expectancy, and that church-going is, in fact, the causal factor.  That conclusion ignores another likely possibility - that non-churchgoers have their life expectancy suppressed by their participation in a society that's pretty well religion-obsessed.  Non-believers are often discriminated against, but it's also just stressful to navigate the boundaries of a culture that nakedly loathes them.

I'd be interested in understanding what conclusions Scuzz/Rowdy would like us non-religious folk to draw from this study.  Because honestly, if this is supposed to make me predisposed towards re-introducing religion into my life, I guess I should go with the Mormons.
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2008, 08:48:26 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on November 28, 2008, 08:03:25 PM


I'd be interested in understanding what conclusions Scuzz/Rowdy would like us non-religious folk to draw from this study.  Because honestly, if this is supposed to make me predisposed towards re-introducing religion into my life, I guess I should go with the Mormons.

Where did I suggest that anyone should draw some sort of conclusion from this study?
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« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2008, 04:58:26 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on November 28, 2008, 08:03:25 PM

Are we supposed to treat a 10-year old study as some sort of breaking news?

Clearly some people here would prefer that we draw one conclusion from this:  that church attendance increases life expectancy, and that church-going is, in fact, the causal factor.  That conclusion ignores another likely possibility - that non-churchgoers have their life expectancy suppressed by their participation in a society that's pretty well religion-obsessed.  Non-believers are often discriminated against, but it's also just stressful to navigate the boundaries of a culture that nakedly loathes them.

I'd be interested in understanding what conclusions Scuzz/Rowdy would like us non-religious folk to draw from this study.  Because honestly, if this is supposed to make me predisposed towards re-introducing religion into my life, I guess I should go with the Mormons.

Idiot. If you had bothered reading my second post you would have seen......

The main reason I brought this up was because of how annoyingly it was presented by a local TV station. The local early news station does about 3-4 minutes of "health" news every night just before the weather and the sports. The items used in the segment are often things like this. Some researcher reports some strange tidbit of quasi-research about smoking, heart health, pregnancy etc. The station shows the same stock footage of fat people or pregnant women or people smoking and then they move on.

This item caught my attention and I just had to find it on the internet. The article explains nothing. At least from what I could tell. The ideas presented in earlier posts actually do make some sense but are still just guesses.
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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2008, 05:27:35 PM »

"Idiot", huh?  Well argued, Scuzz.

So, to recap, you posted a link to something that obliquely references a decade-old study, which is better outlined in a million other places on the internet and has an obviously questionable conclusion, and you grant that your "article explains nothing," but you're unwilling to discuss any of the substantive issues I brought up in my post.  Classy!  I hope you're here to stay.
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2008, 05:57:56 PM »

If you READ my post you see my complaint is about the idiot newsstation that somehow finds this to be worthy of being on the air..........
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« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2008, 06:07:41 PM »

It's an interesting topic, akin to the various efficacy of prayer studies, and one that would've been worth covering for 30 seconds on the local news back when the various studies were first authored.

I don't understand your claim that you're just interested in how it's covered by some local news broadcast - your initial post is about the substance of the claim, which is why it merits coverage in the R&P forum, while your second post shifts gears entirely, and might as well be about "Too many cat in tree pieces," before calling me an idiot.  I rate this thread a D for coherence, but a B+ in "effectiveness at inciting complaints about the dastardly atheists who complain too much about being oppressed."
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Scuzz
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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 06:21:25 PM »

Got the point. The initial post was sarcastic but aimed at seeing how many religion wackos would respond. Actually few did originally. I did post though based on my frustration with the local news.....
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« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 07:21:04 AM »

In this case, I wonder if it would actually help to write to your local news station, they usually have contact info and it's likely they don't get much feedback along those lines.
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« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2008, 02:11:43 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 01, 2008, 05:57:56 PM

If you READ my post you see my complaint is about the idiot newsstation that somehow finds this to be worthy of being on the air..........

It certainly didn't come across that way. I read your post and thought you were calling Brendan an idiot as well.

You say "Idiot. If you...."

Sure makes it appear as though you are referencing Brendan, and not the writer of the article.
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« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2008, 04:34:05 PM »

The post that used the word "idiot" was calling him an idiot. Maybe a bad reader would have been better. My daughter would say "tard". Fact is he had not read a post that discounted the very point he was making.

I apologize for name calling....
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« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2008, 04:35:58 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 03, 2008, 04:34:05 PM

The post that used the word "idiot" was calling him an idiot. Maybe a bad reader would have been better. My daughter would say "tard". Fact is he had not read a post that discounted the very point he was making.

I apologize for name calling....

I read your post before responding, Scuzz.  Nothing I said in my response was covered by your bizarre addendum about how your *real* issue was what your local health reporter was reporting on.  If that were even a valid basis for your original post, I'd expect this thread to have been titled "Why does channel 4 cover this?".
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Scuzz
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« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2008, 09:42:38 PM »

1st Post

Quote from: Scuzz on November 22, 2008, 12:46:39 AM

http://www.buffalo.edu/ubreporter/archives/vol37/vol37n45/articles/HolmesLecture.html

The study examined the effect of church participation on life expectancy and found that the average churchgoer lives seven years longer than a person who does not regularly attend services. In African-Americans, the increase in lifespan is 14 years. Furthermore, Holmes said even longer life expectancies were reported in those who combined volunteer activities with church attendance.

I will see you at church this Sunday........  Roll Eyes


2nd Post

The main reason I brought this up was because of how annoyingly it was presented by a local TV station. The local early news station does about 3-4 minutes of "health" news every night just before the weather and the sports. The items used in the segment are often things like this. Some researcher reports some strange tidbit of quasi-research about smoking, heart health, pregnancy etc. The station shows the same stock footage of fat people or pregnant women or people smoking and then they move on.

This item caught my attention and I just had to find it on the internet. The article explains nothing. At least from what I could tell. The ideas presented in earlier posts actually do make some sense but are still just guesses.

3rd Post

Idiot. If you had bothered reading my second post you would have seen......

The main reason I brought this up was because of how annoyingly it was presented by a local TV station. The local early news station does about 3-4 minutes of "health" news every night just before the weather and the sports. The items used in the segment are often things like this. Some researcher reports some strange tidbit of quasi-research about smoking, heart health, pregnancy etc. The station shows the same stock footage of fat people or pregnant women or people smoking and then they move on.

This item caught my attention and I just had to find it on the internet. The article explains nothing. At least from what I could tell. The ideas presented in earlier posts actually do make some sense but are still just guesses.

If you READ my post you see my complaint is about the idiot newsstation that somehow finds this to be worthy of being on the air..........


4th Post

Got the point. The initial post was sarcastic but aimed at seeing how many religion wackos would respond. Actually few did originally. I did post though based on my frustration with the local news.....

The post that used the word "idiot" was calling him an idiot. Maybe a bad reader would have been better. My daughter would say "tard". Fact is he had not read a post that discounted the very point he was making.

I apologize for name calling....

 Now

You (and others) seemed to assume that I started this thread to show how religion would help you live longer. Look above. There is nothing there that says that. You (and others) seem to have a "problem" with religion that leads you to attack anyone who even brings it up as a curiousity.

One of your posts states that I am trying to make you "non-religious" people draw a conclusion from this. Well, I drew a conclusion.

The internet is an interesting place filled with lots of different kinds of people. But I have noticed on this site (and many others of various types, even CBSSportsline) that there seems to be a real hatred of religion. Usually aimed at Christianity but I think it holds for all of them.

I was raised in the Episcopal church. I went religiously (har har) until late high school when I was too busy sleeping off the nite before to go to church on Sunday. I know have no purpose for religion in my life. I think religious zeolots are fools, and the people who follow them are fools. I came to this conclusion after years of seeing how different groups within the same religion couldn't agree on the why and wherefores of their God. But people who believe in God and religious zeolots are not necessarily the same people.

What has led to this hatred of religion? Is it a because of a hatred of the right wing? Is it because preist abused you as a child? Did a nun slap your wrist with a ruler in school? Is the hatred truly just politically based? If it is based on the social effects of religion then you must hate all religions everywhere.

Why do you feel the way you do about religion? I am curious.



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« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2008, 09:56:01 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 03, 2008, 09:42:38 PM

You (and others) seem to have a "problem" with religion that leads you to attack anyone who even brings it up as a curiousity.

Please point out specifically where I attacked you (or anyone else).
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« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2008, 10:24:35 PM »

I'd be interested in understanding what conclusions Scuzz/Rowdy would like us non-religious folk to draw from this study.  Because honestly, if this is supposed to make me predisposed towards re-introducing religion into my life, I guess I should go with the Mormons.

that non-churchgoers have their life expectancy suppressed by their participation in a society that's pretty well religion-obsessed.  Non-believers are often discriminated against, but it's also just stressful to navigate the boundaries of a culture that nakedly loathes them.

You attack religion....you hate religion.....why........
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« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2008, 10:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 03, 2008, 10:24:35 PM

I'd be interested in understanding what conclusions Scuzz/Rowdy would like us non-religious folk to draw from this study.  Because honestly, if this is supposed to make me predisposed towards re-introducing religion into my life, I guess I should go with the Mormons.

that non-churchgoers have their life expectancy suppressed by their participation in a society that's pretty well religion-obsessed.  Non-believers are often discriminated against, but it's also just stressful to navigate the boundaries of a culture that nakedly loathes them.

You attack religion....you hate religion.....why........

You claim that I "attack[ed] anyone who even brings it up", and yet that quote demonstrates nothing of the sort.   Not only did I not attack you, the guy who brought it up, I didn't "attack religion."  If I hadn't read previous posts of yours, I'd suspect that English wasn't your first language given your propensity for misunderstanding.
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« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2008, 10:31:18 PM »

You are paranoid. You assume the post was meant to promote something that you loathe. Why?...........
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Brendan
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« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2008, 10:45:09 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 03, 2008, 10:31:18 PM

You are paranoid. You assume the post was meant to promote something that you loathe. Why?...........

Man, how'd I come to the conclusion that a thread labelled "Go to church..live longer...?" and that cited the purportedly positive effects on lifespan when one regularly attends church, was somehow about the effects of church-going on lifespan?  I'm so cuh-razy.

Attempting to have a discussion with you is like playing telephone with a series of increasingly inattentive twelve year olds.  What you get back is related to what you put in, but only in the most tangential of senses.  Where'd I say that I loathe religion?  Oh, I didn't?  I actually said that American culture loathes unbelievers?  Huh.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2008, 11:00:03 PM »

you just don't get it, do you???????????
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