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Author Topic: Germany's War on Homeschooling  (Read 1532 times)
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ATB
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« on: August 30, 2013, 04:41:25 PM »

As you may have heard, Eric Holder refused to grant a German family asylum based on their claim that they were being persecuted by their country's ban on Home Schooling.

Now Germany has upped the ante in their enforcement of this law by seizing a different homeschooling family's children.

As a person who home schools, I find this egregious and view it as just another form of control that a government is trying to enact on its people.  You'll learn what we want you to learn, how we want you to learn it and as ineffectively as we can teach it in an environment that is hostile to learning and in many cases your children's well being.

Disgusting.
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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 04:47:00 PM »

I am also outraged by this misstep of German government and as an American citizen living in the states I will not be voting for the current leadership in the next election. 
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 04:58:27 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 30, 2013, 04:41:25 PM

As a person who home schools

What grade are you in now?  I see that you write at about a 9th grade level, so I'm guessing a Sophomore?
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 05:06:26 PM »

I miss the days when they'd wage war on France....
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 05:07:03 PM »

It's not really "war" if, when you arrive, everyone pretends not to be home.
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM »

Disgusting load of crap they are pulling.

But what do you expect from the country that gave the world Hitler Youth?

The US is supporting it because those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2013, 10:59:46 PM »

For those of you who have no earthly idea what ATB and Rip are on about, homeschooling in Germany has been banned since 1918.  In 2008, the Romeikes, a family of devout Christians from Germany, moved to the United States and requested asylum from fines incurred by refusing to enroll their kids in any of the accredited public or private schools in their home country.

The Romeikes were granted temporary asylum in 2010 by Judge Lawrence Burman, a federal immigration judge appointed in 1998 by Bill Clinton.  His decision was appealed by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency and overturned in 2012 by a three-judge panel from the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals.  The judges deciding the case were Ronald Lee Gilman, who was appointed by Bill Clinton, and John Rogers and Jeffrey Sutton who were both appointed by George W. Bush.


If you have never heard of this family or their now-pending appeal to the Supreme Court, it's likely because you do not ever read releases from the Home School Legal Defense Association.  And I mean *ever,* as they've been breathlessly publicizing every incremental step in this case for the last five years.  Go on: type "Romeike" into Google and see what comes up.

The HSLDA is a non-profit homeschooling advocacy group which offers free legal assistance to members who wish to homeschool their children, campaigns for a Constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, and runs "Generation Joshua," a Conservative Christian organization seeking to engage kids from 11 to 19 in the exciting world of anti-abortion legislation. 

The HSLDA is also closely affiliated with Patrick Henry College, a deeply Conservative institution which requires all students and faculty to sign Declarations of Faith in which they acknowledge the literal existence of Satan, affirm that belief in Christ is the only salvation from Hell, and vow to accept Creationism as the true basis for all the sciences.


In other words, when ATB says:

Quote from: ATB on August 30, 2013, 04:41:25 PM

As a person who home schools, I find this egregious and view it as just another form of control that a government is trying to enact on its people.  You'll learn what we want you to learn, how we want you to learn it and as ineffectively as we can teach it in an environment that is hostile to learning and in many cases your children's well being.

Disgusting.


He means he's really angry that the United States government doesn't grant political asylum to any non-citizen dissatisfied with the quality of their home country's educational options, or who feels "persecuted" by needing to co-mingle with people with differing religious beliefs.

And when Rip says:

Quote from: Rip on August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM

Disgusting load of crap they are pulling.

But what do you expect from the country that gave the world Hitler Youth?

The US is supporting it because those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.


Not only does he *immediately* Godwin his own position to death -- he also argues that federal judges appointed by George W. Bush are secretly in cahoots with the Obama administration to require that German Christian children be reverse-indoctrinated by state-run schools in their home country so the U.S. schools will something something why is everything so red i think my tear ducts r bleedin agan oh god

-Arutsc ang
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Fireball
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 11:02:45 PM »

Homeschooling is not particularly common outside the English-speaking world. Germany's far from the only major nation to not allow homeschooling. Even within the United States, regulations on homeschooling vary from programs that ensure kids are taught good information about history, science, and the like, to states let parents teach children pretty much anything, up to and including fairytales.

Granting someone asylum from another country is to effectively charge that country with gross violations of human rights. That's a pretty dramatic step to take against an ally such as Germany over an issue like education policy.
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 11:18:15 PM »

Oh, side note:

I honestly do like it when American Conservatives suddenly get super militant about something as obscure as century-old German homeschooling laws.  You can tell right away that it's total bullshit, but so much of their honor-bound outrage has become so predictable, at least there's some fun in tracing back which part of their echo chamber this nonsense is leaking from. icon_lol

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2013, 11:28:41 PM »

While I think that homeschooling your kids is fine up to a certain age, there are a lot more people more deserving of asylum. If we don't have the right to butt  our nose in when another country uses nerve agents then we certainly shouldn't butt in when other countries make their kids go to a school.
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ATB
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« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2013, 12:15:57 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 30, 2013, 11:18:15 PM

Oh, side note:

I honestly do like it when American Conservatives suddenly get super militant about something as obscure as century-old German homeschooling laws.  

-Autistic Angel

It's funny how obvious your google warrior mentality undergirds everything you do and how you then you pretend like you're knowledgeable about a subject.    icon_lol


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ATB
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« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2013, 12:20:03 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 30, 2013, 11:02:45 PM

Granting someone asylum from another country is to effectively charge that country with gross violations of human rights. That's a pretty dramatic step to take against an ally such as Germany over an issue like education policy.

As a large portion of those who homeschool do so because of religious belief, one can see it as a federal level of religious intolerance.  Also, as that same large portion often finds the public education lacking and an ineffective and gross waste of resources, one could also reason that home schoolers would rather not have their children's time wasted by the slow paced educational, overcrowded and sometimes dangerous public school setting.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2013, 12:42:18 AM »

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 12:15:57 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 30, 2013, 11:18:15 PM

Oh, side note:

I honestly do like it when American Conservatives suddenly get super militant about something as obscure as century-old German homeschooling laws.  

-Autistic Angel

It's funny how obvious your google warrior mentality undergirds everything you do and how you then you pretend like you're knowledgeable about a subject.    icon_lol


Quoted in full so people can see how you deleted the second line of my post, in which I specifically reference researching this topic to figure out what you were talking about, so that you could deliver this zinger about how I research topics before forming opinions about them.

Good one, by the way.


Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 12:20:03 AM

As a large portion of those who homeschool do so because of religious belief, one can see it as a federal level of religious intolerance.  Also, as that same large portion often finds the public education lacking and an ineffective and gross waste of resources, one could also reason that home schoolers would rather not have their children's time wasted by the slow paced educational, overcrowded and sometimes dangerous public school setting.


ATB, Rip, and the hard-Right conservatives at the HSLDA believe Germans who want to homeschool their children should be granted political asylum in the United States.  I wonder how many other downtrodden would-be immigrants the Conservative movement is willing to throw open the doors to protect.


"My country is besieged by drug cartels and protection rackets run by corrupt police!  Give us asylum!"

"Of course!  Come on in, everyone!"


"Please, we need asylum!  Our country compels hundred-hour work weeks for pennies a day, forces us to live in slums, and even forces us to have abortions!"

"Yes!  What are you waiting for, come right over!"


"My parents brought me into the United States illegally when I was just two years old!  I have been born and raised as an American my entire life; I literally have no place else to go!"

"What?  What kind of sociopathic monster would oppose a pathway to citizenship for an educated taxpayer like yourself?  We would never try to kill the DREAM Act...."

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2013, 12:47:37 AM »

You should note I am not at all religious. My children could count on their fingers the number of times they have been to church and are fully aware I scoff at organized religion.

I am however a staunch believer on individual freedoms, I am focused on making sure my children focus on math, education, reading, and science. My children do attend public school but I have homeschooled them at times I felt I needed to. My issues are usually more about the fluff, dragging down some so others can be drug up to speed, and political skewing of education to further agendas I disagree with.

In the end it is about a parents desires about the education of their children outweighing a governments desires by miles and miles. Perhaps if your public schools were the joke that ones around here are at times you would feel different. But go ahead and believe whatever the teachers unions want you to. It is obvious by things like the attempt to stop a state approved vouchers program here by the feds that success/quality of the education is not what they are really worried about. I have met so many Louisiana teachers that I would say border ignorant it makes me want to cry sometimes. But hey they pay their dues and go on strike or take a sick day to protest/march when told.
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« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2013, 12:59:11 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 12:42:18 AM

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 12:15:57 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 30, 2013, 11:18:15 PM

Oh, side note:

I honestly do like it when American Conservatives suddenly get super militant about something as obscure as century-old German homeschooling laws.  

-Autistic Angel

It's funny how obvious your google warrior mentality undergirds everything you do and how you then you pretend like you're knowledgeable about a subject.    icon_lol


Quoted in full so people can see how you deleted the second line of my post, in which I specifically reference researching this topic to figure out what you were talking about, so that you could deliver this zinger about how I research topics before forming opinions about them.

Good one, by the way.


Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 12:20:03 AM

As a large portion of those who homeschool do so because of religious belief, one can see it as a federal level of religious intolerance.  Also, as that same large portion often finds the public education lacking and an ineffective and gross waste of resources, one could also reason that home schoolers would rather not have their children's time wasted by the slow paced educational, overcrowded and sometimes dangerous public school setting.


ATB, Rip, and the hard-Right conservatives at the HSLDA believe Germans who want to homeschool their children should be granted political asylum in the United States.  I wonder how many other downtrodden would-be immigrants the Conservative movement is willing to throw open the doors to protect.


"My country is besieged by drug cartels and protection rackets run by corrupt police!  Give us asylum!"

"Of course!  Come on in, everyone!"


"Please, we need asylum!  Our country compels hundred-hour work weeks for pennies a day, forces us to live in slums, and even forces us to have abortions!"

"Yes!  What are you waiting for, come right over!"


"My parents brought me into the United States illegally when I was just two years old!  I have been born and raised as an American my entire life; I literally have no place else to go!"

"What?  What kind of sociopathic monster would oppose a pathway to citizenship for an educated taxpayer like yourself?  We would never try to kill the DREAM Act...."

-Autistic Angel

Perhaps you should read back and let me know where it is I said anything about the asylum? My issues is with the German policy itself and in particular the thuggish, jackbooted way it is enforced. On the up side the kids sure got an education in how militaristic agencies of "so called" law interact with non-violent people who try to make waves and question the states right to teach them to believe whatever they choose.

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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2013, 01:54:43 AM »

Quote from: Rip on August 31, 2013, 12:59:11 AM

Perhaps you should read back and let me know where it is I said anything about the asylum?


Okay.

Quote from: Rip on August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM

Disgusting load of crap they are pulling.

But what do you expect from the country that gave the world Hitler Youth?

The US is supporting it because those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.

Since even ATB has not yet suggested that the American military bases in Germany are involved in rounding up German families for forced schooling, the only "support" you could possibly be referring to is the denial of asylum.

By the way, since Nazism is such an reasonable touchstone for the dangers of state-sponsored schooling, what are some of the major initiatives you'd attribute to the last sixty years of Hitler Youth graduates?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2013, 02:45:59 AM »

Quote from: Rip on August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM

those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.

A nicer word for "indoctrination" is "enculturation" (or "socialization").

The state has an interest in ensuring that future citizens learn the underlying precepts that make them Germans...or Americans, or whatever. That's how societies perpetuate themselves, and is arguably the most important purpose of public education (with the overt goal of economic viability being second). Regardless of who's in power right now.

Parents, in the US at least, can contradict the cultural precepts instilled by the state -- or indoctrinate their children, if you prefer -- through homeschooling or through the day-to-day process of parenting. Those of sufficient means can also opt for private schools that inculcate their religious beliefs. More power to them.

I think it's important for those kids to learn the same enculturation that their peers are getting, both for their own mental development and for society's well-being. Ultimately, they'll each decide for themselves what they believe. If you're confident that your personal subculture is superior, you won't feel threatened by public indoctrination.

Until they start paying social security taxes, your children should be your property to do with as you please. If you have sufficient grounding in literature, mathematics, science, history, geography, music, art, and civics to provide them with a well-rounded education, go nuts. If you lack those qualifications, you might need to consider who's doing the indoctrinating.
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ATB
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2013, 03:20:07 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 12:42:18 AM


ATB, and the hard-Right conservatives

You continue to be a one-hit wonder.  

I'm not a hard right conservative. Feel free to check my post history- since you love freshly stumbling upon a topic and claiming all due knowledge about it (and also sinking hours into it so that you can still fail to make any kind of point).  Start with the recent thread about SCOTUS and gay marriage. Then go into the one about pot. How about the Syria one for 3 recent examples. Cross reference your posts where you support the more draconian policies of the current administration while hypocritically denouncing those of the previous one.  Note also, how I've consistently commented that my views on things have changed, while you continue to think you're talking to the ATB of 7 years ago. Finally, go back into the OO offline thread and find my posts from 2006 where I acted like an ass to the refugees and then ignore my recent ones where I welcome them and encourage them to stay so that you can maintain a position of my attitudes that is wholly inaccurate. Buuuut I guess googling 'ATB' doesn't give you a handy set of links to form your opinions on so you don't know what to do.

Also, asylum isn't the issue here. Freedom for parents to do what they think is best for their children is.  However, I'm sure you'll continue to focus on the [edit] former.
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2013, 03:26:38 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on August 31, 2013, 02:45:59 AM

The state has an interest in ensuring that future citizens learn the underlying precepts that make them  Americans, or whatever. That's how societies perpetuate themselves, and is arguably the most important purpose of public education (with the overt goal of economic viability being second). Regardless of who's in power right now.

But the world has changed, Ironrod. We've seen through the veil of state funded indoctrination and that the State is wrong about a lot and they teach things that are not true to make us 'patriots'.  There's a great fear of presenting the opposite to the party line lest people be able to think for themselves.

Quote
I think it's important for those kids to learn the same enculturation that their peers are getting, both for their own mental development and for society's well-being.

Automatons? All taught to think the same way about the same thing?  I think that results in the opposite of what you're proposing it does.

Quote
Ultimately, they'll each decide for themselves what they believe. If you're confident that your personal subculture is superior, you won't feel threatened by public indoctrination.

Ditto to the inverse. If the public indoctrination is superior, then there should be no fear that children who actually spend their time learning rather than putting up with the ineffectiveness of public education will lean that way eventually anyway.

Quote
Until they start paying social security taxes, your children should be your property to do with as you please.
 I'm sure you mean within reasonable limits.

Quote
If you have sufficient grounding in literature, mathematics, science, history, geography, music, art, and civics to provide them with a well-rounded education, go nuts. If you lack those qualifications, you might need to consider who's doing the indoctrinating.

We routinely have our children tested using internationally accepted achievement tests and they exceed in nearly every category.  When you take into consideration their unique gifts and the significant time they get to spend on them while not waiting for the 'bad kids' to obey a poorly paid teacher (I was one) the growth is exponentially magnified.
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« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2013, 04:44:13 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 01:54:43 AM

By the way, since Nazism is such an reasonable touchstone for the dangers of state-sponsored schooling, what are some of the major initiatives you'd attribute to the last sixty years of Hitler Youth graduates?

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« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2013, 05:14:44 AM »

The only way the schools can create 'automatons' is if the schools are the only source of information kids are exposed to.

I teach my kids, first and foremost, how to think.  Not what to think, but how to listen, how to question, how to doubt, how to decide.  I didn't wait and see if the schools would do so, but taught them before and throughout their time in school.  We discuss issues all the time, refreshing these concepts.

The schools is welcome to present any set of ideas that they like.  My kids know how to think.
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« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2013, 05:57:06 AM »

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 03:20:07 AM

Also, asylum isn't the issue here. Freedom for parents to do what they think is best for their children is.  However, I'm sure you'll continue to focus on the [edit] former.

Unless any of us are from Germany, we don't really have a say in what "freedoms" people have in Germany regarding education. And I don't think you'll find many people who think education policy is worth sanctioning or otherwise antagonizing an enemy over, so there's really no way for the United States to influence that.

The question at hand in America is whether not being able to homeschool your kids in Germany raises to the level of a human rights abuse that justifies granting asylum to homeschooling parents. Given that we *don't* grant asylum for far more egregiously abusive policies of other foreign governments, that's a hard question to answer in the affirmative.
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2013, 06:03:04 AM »

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 03:26:38 AM

But the world has changed, Ironrod. We've seen through the veil of state funded indoctrination and that the State is wrong about a lot and they teach things that are not true to make us 'patriots'.

So you "see through" the "indoctrination" the rest of us have been brainwashed into?

Quote
Quote
I think it's important for those kids to learn the same enculturation that their peers are getting, both for their own mental development and for society's well-being.

Automatons? All taught to think the same way about the same thing?

Right, because public schools produce kid after kid after kid who all think the same way.  Roll Eyes

Quote
If the public indoctrination is superior, then there should be no fear that children who actually spend their time learning rather than putting up with the ineffectiveness of public education will lean that way eventually anyway.

Unless of course they are "taught" by parents who think the most important thing the kid can learn is that the Baby Jesus™ created the world 6,000 years ago and anyone who says otherwise is deluded by Satan™. Not much learning going on in those sorts of households.

I went to great public schools. We had some home school kids transfer in as we were in high school. A couple were fine, if a bit socially awkward. Bright kids who did well and continue to do so. A couple thought that an old man in the sky put dinosaurs in the rocks to test the faithful, and struggled in science and history classes because the teachers were teaching "lies". Haven't heard much from them since graduation.

Homeschooling, like any form of schooling, is a mixed bag.

I don't agree with an outright ban on it. I also don't agree with letting kids be taught "science" that is not science. In the long run, not teaching kids real science doesn't just hurt the individual kids, it hurts the community, and nation, at large. It is a legitimate national priority to produce future generations that are capable of understanding, and building upon, the scientific progress that has been at the core of American prosperity.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 06:06:48 AM by Fireball1244 » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2013, 06:07:45 AM »

Quote from: Blackhawk on August 31, 2013, 05:14:44 AM

The only way the schools can create 'automatons' is if the schools are the only source of information kids are exposed to.

I teach my kids, first and foremost, how to think.  Not what to think, but how to listen, how to question, how to doubt, how to decide.  I didn't wait and see if the schools would do so, but taught them before and throughout their time in school.  We discuss issues all the time, refreshing these concepts.

The schools is welcome to present any set of ideas that they like.  My kids know how to think.

We need more parents like you!
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« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2013, 06:18:30 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 31, 2013, 06:07:45 AM

Quote from: Blackhawk on August 31, 2013, 05:14:44 AM

The only way the schools can create 'automatons' is if the schools are the only source of information kids are exposed to.

I teach my kids, first and foremost, how to think.  Not what to think, but how to listen, how to question, how to doubt, how to decide.  I didn't wait and see if the schools would do so, but taught them before and throughout their time in school.  We discuss issues all the time, refreshing these concepts.

The schools is welcome to present any set of ideas that they like.  My kids know how to think.

We need more parents like you!

Amen. My dad taught me to question everything (except him!).  icon_lol

I'll get to ATB's post tomorrow. It's 2:30 am and time for bed.
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Rip
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« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2013, 06:44:18 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 01:54:43 AM

Quote from: Rip on August 31, 2013, 12:59:11 AM

Perhaps you should read back and let me know where it is I said anything about the asylum?


Okay.

Quote from: Rip on August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM

Disgusting load of crap they are pulling.

But what do you expect from the country that gave the world Hitler Youth?

The US is supporting it because those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.

Since even ATB has not yet suggested that the American military bases in Germany are involved in rounding up German families for forced schooling, the only "support" you could possibly be referring to is the denial of asylum.

By the way, since Nazism is such an reasonable touchstone for the dangers of state-sponsored schooling, what are some of the major initiatives you'd attribute to the last sixty years of Hitler Youth graduates?

-Autistic Angel

No< I mean suppoting it by pressuring Germany to change the law. As with any policy you disagree with there are planty of things you can do between nothing and granting asylum to people subjected to it. I would not suggest homosexuals from Russia be granted asylum either, but I certainly think we should apply pressure on them to chage.
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« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2013, 06:49:31 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on August 31, 2013, 05:57:06 AM

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 03:20:07 AM

Also, asylum isn't the issue here. Freedom for parents to do what they think is best for their children is.  However, I'm sure you'll continue to focus on the [edit] former.

Unless any of us are from Germany, we don't really have a say in what "freedoms" people have in Germany regarding education. And I don't think you'll find many people who think education policy is worth sanctioning or otherwise antagonizing an enemy over, so there's really no way for the United States to influence that.

The question at hand in America is whether not being able to homeschool your kids in Germany raises to the level of a human rights abuse that justifies granting asylum to homeschooling parents. Given that we *don't* grant asylum for far more egregiously abusive policies of other foreign governments, that's a hard question to answer in the affirmative.

I agree, I have no problem with the Asylum denial.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2013, 10:31:42 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 01:54:43 AM

Quote from: Rip on August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM

Disgusting load of crap they are pulling.

But what do you expect from the country that gave the world Hitler Youth?

The US is supporting it because those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.

Since even ATB has not yet suggested that the American military bases in Germany are involved in rounding up German families for forced schooling, the only "support" you could possibly be referring to is the denial of asylum.


Quote from: Rip on August 31, 2013, 06:44:18 AM

No< I mean suppoting it by pressuring Germany to change the law. As with any policy you disagree with there are planty of things you can do between nothing and granting asylum to people subjected to it. I would not suggest homosexuals from Russia be granted asylum either, but I certainly think we should apply pressure on them to chage.


In the post quoted above, you claimed that "those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctrination camps."  Your litmus test is that those in power right now aren't putting enough international pressure on Germany to change a national policy that dates back ninety-five years.

What are some examples of previous American administrations putting sufficient amounts of pressure on Germany to change their stance on homeschooling?  Or would you contend that George W. Bush, his father, Bill Clinton, and Ronald Reagan also colluded with the Germans to force our children into indoctrination camps?

-Autistic Angel
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2013, 11:48:16 AM »

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 03:20:07 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 12:42:18 AM


ATB, and the hard-Right conservatives

You continue to be a one-hit wonder.  

I'm not a hard right conservative.


Cool.  If I meet anyone who says otherwise, I'll be sure to let them know about the rest of your post.

See, the word "and" is a conjunction which can be used to connect unlike things.  If I say, "My cat and a pack of dogs ran down the road," I am not claiming that my cat should be viewed as an integral member of the pack of dogs.  I'm actually distinguishing my cat as an actor apart from the pack of dogs.  The alternative would be, "A bunch of animals like my cat ran down the road," which suggests that a herd of cat-like animals all went down the road together.

The quoted fragment states that you, ATB, are expressing agreement with the hard-Right Conservatives at the HSLDA.  This is not the same thing as claiming that you are a member of that group or that you share any other goals or attributes in common.

But enough explanations about elementary sentence structure.  After all, you're a highly qualified homeschooler.


Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 03:20:07 AM

Also, asylum isn't the issue here. Freedom for parents to do what they think is best for their children is.  However, I'm sure you'll continue to focus on the [edit] former.


Yeah, it's a weird quirk I have about ignoring century-old foreign laws which cause no measurable harm to anyone (German homeschooling laws) and focusing more on the laws in my own country which might actually impact my life (a group of religious Conservatives are repeatedly suing the United States government to define homeschooling as a human rights issue).

I'm also fascinated that the Conservative political movement, known for its virulently anti-immigration rhetoric about Latinos, is simultaneously so strident about granting unqualified entry to Europeans who want to move over.  Both groups are statistically very likely to believe in Christianity.  What could the difference possibly be?





-Autistic Angel
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Rip
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« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2013, 04:34:23 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 10:31:42 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on August 31, 2013, 01:54:43 AM

Quote from: Rip on August 30, 2013, 08:32:45 PM

Disgusting load of crap they are pulling.

But what do you expect from the country that gave the world Hitler Youth?

The US is supporting it because those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctination camp, err I mean public school.

Since even ATB has not yet suggested that the American military bases in Germany are involved in rounding up German families for forced schooling, the only "support" you could possibly be referring to is the denial of asylum.


Quote from: Rip on August 31, 2013, 06:44:18 AM

No< I mean suppoting it by pressuring Germany to change the law. As with any policy you disagree with there are planty of things you can do between nothing and granting asylum to people subjected to it. I would not suggest homosexuals from Russia be granted asylum either, but I certainly think we should apply pressure on them to chage.


In the post quoted above, you claimed that "those in power right now would love nothing more than to force all our youth into indoctrination camps."  Your litmus test is that those in power right now aren't putting enough international pressure on Germany to change a national policy that dates back ninety-five years.

What are some examples of previous American administrations putting sufficient amounts of pressure on Germany to change their stance on homeschooling?  Or would you contend that George W. Bush, his father, Bill Clinton, and Ronald Reagan also colluded with the Germans to force our children into indoctrination camps?

-Autistic Angel

I would say all administrations in recent history don't really care for homeschooling. Whether or not they pressure Germany is irrelevant. Just as in the case of spying on citizens none of them are interested in the individual rights.  They would all prefer to see the government oversee ALL education and spend more time fighting over what should be taught there than any interest in allowing the actual parents to choose what their children are taught. There are not many politicians that don't think the government knows better, they are only interested in choosing what those government decisions are. Whereas I am more interested in that being the parents place no matter how much I agree or disagree with what exactly those parents teach their kids. As long as they aren't teaching them to kill people and eat them or some crazy crap like that.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2013, 04:41:41 PM »

I would have to say that we were right in denying asylum, but the law is a bullshit law they should change.   There is absolutely nothing wrong with homeschooling, and in many districts in the US its going to be far better then the crappy school the government is providing.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2013, 05:38:36 PM »

Quote from: Rip on August 31, 2013, 04:34:23 PM

I would say all administrations in recent history don't really care for homeschooling. Whether or not they pressure Germany is irrelevant.


So when you expressed your disgust for the current administration's indoctrination plot and specified the lack of political pressure on Germany as evidence that this plot even exists, what you *really* meant was that you're disgusted by the last thirty years or so of federal attitudes towards homeschooling and it has nothing to do with pressuring Germany at all.

I would imagine that if Democrats and Republicans, liberals and Conservatives, hawks and doves alike all shared the common goal of transforming American schools into compulsory youth indoctrination camps, we'd have seen a lot of German-style legislation to ban homeschooling over the last couple decades.  Do you have any examples of Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr., or Reagan doing anything at all to advance this goal, or would you like another mulligan?

Or, would you consider the possibility that you were momentarily swept up in a hot button issue stoked by a partisan religious group, maybe posted a few things that don't seem sustainable in retrospect, and agree this issue is somewhat more complicated than it first appeared?  It's up to you, Rip, but ATB's disdain for facts not withstanding, there's no shame in saying, "I've learned new information about this and want to adjust my answer accordingly."

-Autistic Angel
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Ironrod
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« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2013, 05:55:17 PM »

Quote from: ATB on August 31, 2013, 03:26:38 AM

Quote from: Ironrod on August 31, 2013, 02:45:59 AM

The state has an interest in ensuring that future citizens learn the underlying precepts that make them  Americans, or whatever. That's how societies perpetuate themselves, and is arguably the most important purpose of public education (with the overt goal of economic viability being second). Regardless of who's in power right now.

But the world has changed, Ironrod. We've seen through the veil of state funded indoctrination and that the State is wrong about a lot and they teach things that are not true to make us 'patriots'.  There's a great fear of presenting the opposite to the party line lest people be able to think for themselves.

Enculturation is accomplished outside of lesson plans -- content is secondary to context. Merely by being in school, kids learn that they're part of a cohort of peers, that certain behaviors are rewarded while others are unacceptable, that they must follow a schedule, that there are goal-based rewards and punishments, that they must obey authority figures or learn how to manipulate them, and a whole lot more in that general vein. That level of socialization is the primary function of schools.

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Ultimately, they'll each decide for themselves what they believe. If you're confident that your personal subculture is superior, you won't feel threatened by public indoctrination.

Ditto to the inverse. If the public indoctrination is superior, then there should be no fear that children who actually spend their time learning rather than putting up with the ineffectiveness of public education will lean that way eventually anyway.

I think our opinions diverge because you're talking about overt, content-based indoctrination, whereas I'm talking about indirect, experience-based socialization. While I do think that all kids should be grounded in the same subjects and share a common vocabulary (because that's ultimately what makes us all citizens of the same country), their own experiences will determine what they actually learn. In history, for example, they might all receive a standard sanitized version of events, but as they go along they're going to absorb a lot more from movies, tv shows, conversations with their elders, etc. Their knowledge and opinions need to start with that common ground in order to diverge and mature.

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We routinely have our children tested using internationally accepted achievement tests and they exceed in nearly every category.  When you take into consideration their unique gifts and the significant time they get to spend on them while not waiting for the 'bad kids' to obey a poorly paid teacher (I was one) the growth is exponentially magnified.

More power to you, then. I'm not opposed to homeschooling when it is focused on real education rather than on religious indoctrination.

Kids benefit from having a common, shared base of knowledge -- from learning the same vocabulary and the same stories. Some of that comes from school, some of it from popular culture, some of it from churches, some of it from parents. It doesn't mean that they should or will believe everything they're taught, only that having that common starting point ties them together and to their culture.
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Alefroth
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« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2013, 08:29:48 PM »

Is it an overreach of government to require parents to school their kids at all?

Ale
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« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2013, 09:42:17 PM »

Quote from: Alefroth on August 31, 2013, 08:29:48 PM

Is it an overreach of government to require parents to school their kids at all?

Ale

No.
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