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Author Topic: Gaddafi is dead/captured  (Read 533 times)
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Razgon
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« on: October 20, 2011, 12:32:51 PM »

So - according to the media, Gaddafi is now dead, or at least captured.

That was quite a while it took for the rebels to get him, but in the end, I guess he didn't go far enough away.

Anyways, I hope they get the country under control and whip up a decent government style, that will allow the populace to live in peace and prosperity, although for now, I have no idea how they will do it. I havent followed the situation that closely, but I havent heard of any rebel government being set up?
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2011, 12:42:57 PM »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/us-libya-idUSTRE79F1FK20111020?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71

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Mlegta told Reuters earlier that Gaddafi, who was in his late 60s, was captured and wounded in both legs at dawn on Thursday as he tried to flee in a convoy which NATO warplanes attacked. He said he had been taken away by an ambulance.

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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2011, 01:51:58 PM »

According to some, he was captured alive and later ended up dead, and he may also have been begging for his life. If he was executed, that's really bad for everyone. If he died in a real firefight, then it's a different kind situation.
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2011, 02:08:00 PM »

it was a clone.
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Blackjack
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2011, 03:38:56 PM »

The question seems to be whether Gaddafi's forces will give up peacefully now that the "head of the snake" (so to speak) is dead, or if you're going to end up with something closer to a civil war.

I'm not a terribly religious guy, but I'd say a prayer for the Lockerbie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103#Compensation_from_Libya) bombing victims' family and friends. This might be the only sense of closure they can get on that horrific event, and they might not ever have imagined getting to see it/hear about it. Some crazy cosmic coincidence this happened the same year a TV show called "Pan Am" went on the air...
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 03:40:30 PM by Blackjack » Logged

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metallicorphan
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2011, 04:20:28 PM »

Yeah Lockerbie is the major one i remember from my childhood



they have been showing his body getting beaten and thrown around on SKY News(definitely looks like him)...you wonder why they have a watershed at 9pm with pretend violence in TV shows and movies when this is being shown at 4pm Tongue

(EDIT:Yeah what Corrupt linked)
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2011, 10:32:16 PM »

Quote from: Blackjack on October 20, 2011, 03:38:56 PM

The question seems to be whether Gaddafi's forces will give up peacefully now that the "head of the snake" (so to speak) is dead, or if you're going to end up with something closer to a civil war.

I'm not a terribly religious guy, but I'd say a prayer for the Lockerbie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103#Compensation_from_Libya) bombing victims' family and friends. This might be the only sense of closure they can get on that horrific event, and they might not ever have imagined getting to see it/hear about it. Some crazy cosmic coincidence this happened the same year a TV show called "Pan Am" went on the air...

Quote
The death of Gaddafi is a setback to campaigners seeking the full truth about the 1988 bombing over Lockerbie in Scotland of Pan Am flight 103 which claimed 270 lives, mainly Americans, and for which one of Gaddafi's agents was convicted.

Jim Swire, the father of one of the Lockerbie victims, said: "There is much still to be resolved and we may now have lost an opportunity for getting nearer the truth."

From the same link above.

As bad as Gaddaffi may have been, he still deserved a trial. The more I read about this it sounds like a pure exeuction. They say his convoy of up to 80 vehicles was trying to escape when hit by NATO, but he and a handful of supporters managed to survive the air strike and escape to a nearby drainage tunnel. NTC fighters chased after them, who found Gaddaffi wounded and stripped him of his shirt, kicking and beating up his body, until he was shot in the arm and in the head, after begging for his life.
So much for all that talk of the new government "putting him on trial" and how they wouldn't kill him if captured like he did to others.
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« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2011, 12:15:26 PM »

The video of them surrounding him and pushing and shoving him is very sad and disturbing.

But 40+ years of rage stored up by the people resulted in what it did.

I won't mourn for the rough treatment of a man who murdered so many people.  Still, seeing anyone live their last minutes in absolute terror made me sick to my stomach.
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2011, 12:54:25 PM »

For anyone interested in the video it's at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhIBn5NiE4A

Very disturbing. To be begging for mercy and be tortured like that. Barbaric. I'm glad to see there are still some normal people out there who don't get off on things like that and thought he should have got a trial. I'm glad the UN's human rights arm stepping in for an investigation into how he may have been executed after being captured.

Since the alleged guy who killed him couldn't have been older than 20, don't think he had "40+" years of hatred boiled up inside for Gaddaffi. Even Saddam Hussein got his trial, was found guilty, and was put to death.. Gaddaffi should have been no different and it would have proved to the world the new Libyan government was civilized and were "better than that".
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2011, 01:45:51 PM »

Quote from: corruptrelic on October 21, 2011, 12:54:25 PM


Since the alleged guy who killed him couldn't have been older than 20, don't think he had "40+" years of hatred boiled up inside for Gaddaffi.

Pretty sure his parents probably taught him of the atrocities done before his birth. And the age of the guy who pulled the trigger doesn't matter. The whole country has been beaten down by him for 4 decades.
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PR_GMR
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« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2011, 02:23:07 PM »

Gaddafi got the death that he deserved from the life that he lived.
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Blackjack
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« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 04:55:37 PM »

I mentioned hoping the Lockerbie/Pan Am bombing's victims feel some sort of sense of closure or justice (23 years is a helluva long wait). CNN posted a video interview with one of the U.S. victims' brothers:

Pan Am 103 relative talks Gadhafi death (a little NSFW because it shows some of the "dead Gadhafi" footage, apparently)
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/10/20/candiotti-gadhafi-death-pan-am.cnn
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2011, 07:38:49 PM »

Lockberbie father: Gaddaffi death 'no form of justice' (video):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15398807

Damn bleeding heart liberals, he loses his daughter and says he wanted to see Gaddaffi get a fair trial. Where's the hatred and desire for more blood?

I think it' kind of sad that some people get off on the death of others, even when it has nothing to do with us. We are supposed to be better than that. We are supposed to be a civilized society that runs by the rule of law.

Even though Timothy McVeigh killed many Americans, he still got his fair trial, was found guilty, and was executed. The rule of law worked. We could have taken him out to the street lynching and torturing him, but what would that say about us as a people who are supposed to be an example of a civilized society? McVeigh got what he deserved after he was found guilty.
Same for Saddam Hussein. He had his trial, he was found guilty, and was hung. As bad as Gaddaffi was, it's still sickening to see how barbaric the way his death came about.

One of the people responsible for the Lockberbie bombing, Megrahi, was freed for 'compassion grounds'. When the U.S. asked Libya's new government to turn him back over to go back to prison, they said they would not do so as he was already tried for the crime and released. We spent 7 months helping the new Libyan government into power by daily bombing of the old one, and they wouldn't honor an American request such as this.

I think ultimately all we did was replace one bad government with another. The NTC claimed they gave no order to kill Gaddaffi, so they must not have control over the militias fighting for them. They had the chance to show the world they were better than the last government and justice would be served the right way, but lust for blood led to the video you've seen of Gaddaffi's death. It's sickening how human beings can treat other human beings like that.

Whether amnesty international and the UN rights arm get their investigation into Gaddaffi's death remains to be seen, but they both said they were troubled by what might have been an execution. And even if they do get their investigation, I seriously doubt anything will happen to the alleged kid who pulled the final trigger.

Btw, obviously the "whole country" wasn't beaten down by him otherwise it wouldn't have taken 6 months of daily NATO bombings on government troops and police to kill them off before rebels could slowly take over.. and another 2 months of intense fighting and daily NATO bombings on his last loyal supporters to finally kill him. If everyone hated him so much, NATO wouldn't have had to intervene and the people could have handled their own problems internally and over thrown him. Even with NATO's daily bombing, it still took half a year. So it wasn't the "whole country".

This whole thing would have played out so much better had they kept him alive and gave him his trial then put him to death for his crimes. It'd prove to the world the new Libyan government (which nobody elected but was put into power by 6 months of bombing of the old one) was better than the last one.

Now, on to Syria!
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2011, 02:20:50 PM »

What happened to Gaddafi is kharma in action.  Im basically a non violent individual and I certainly dont condone how things ended for Gaddafi.  Still I understand.  This dictator routinely murdered and tortured his citizens.  He oppressed his people into starvation while living like a rock star.  After decades of his abuse, begging for his life was probably the worst thing he could do as he showed no such mercy for those he had killed.
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2011, 04:19:30 PM »

Those videos take shakycam to a whole new level. What I can make out is disturbing. It sure looks like the crowd is going to tear him apart...although I guess he actually was executed in the ambulance that took him away.

I read that he had the misfortune of being captured by a rebel unit that was from a small town that had lost more than 100 people to one of Kaddafy's pogroms. For them, revenge was personal.

Whether or not he deserved his fate, I hate seeing the worst of human nature in action. Beating up a wounded old man while screaming "God is great!" is not exactly inspirational.
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TiLT
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2011, 07:08:32 PM »

Quote from: rshetts2 on October 22, 2011, 02:20:50 PM

What happened to Gaddafi is kharma in action.  Im basically a non violent individual and I certainly dont condone how things ended for Gaddafi.  Still I understand.  This dictator routinely murdered and tortured his citizens.  He oppressed his people into starvation while living like a rock star.  After decades of his abuse, begging for his life was probably the worst thing he could do as he showed no such mercy for those he had killed.

I don't support the death penalty, but I can't say I regret that Gadaffi died. It's the way in which he died that bothers me. The general public should never take the law into their own hands. Separation of judge, jury and executioner is a central aspect of any civilized society, and once those three roles start to overlap, things get out of hand.

If you stand cheering over your helpless, wounded enemy who's begging for his life, then lynch him before shooting him in the head, you barely deserve to be called human.
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« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2011, 07:57:29 PM »

Reading through the history of the (law enforcement) Texas Rangers, the lynch mob is something that we've seen in our history less than 100 years ago, even those not motivated directly by racial tensions.  The idea that this idea is going to be one that you can expect from a people that are still primarily regional and tribal in nature strikes me as putting the cart before the horse.

And looking at the history of Capital punishment in Europe, that shift to pacifism has only been seen in the 65 years since the idea of death as punishment has been removed from European society.

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in the rule of law and that people should be made to stand trial and answer for their crimes, but expecting the Libyans or any people ruled by a murderous despot to have the societal and philosophical high ground to be "better" than the ruler of their society, you're missing a lot of needed steps to get there.
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2011, 02:18:09 AM »

Pretty sure I wouldn't be calm if i had just fought a war, saw my friends killed, watched his armies shell civilians and butcher my fellow countrymen...



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corruptrelic
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2011, 11:58:25 AM »

Exactly, it was a war.. and Gaddafi was captured alive as a POW. Executing him after being captured when he posed no threat is almost a war crime in itself.

Murdering him when he posed no threat to you is more likely to preserve and justify his actions than condemn them. If the liberators act the same way the dictator did, then how are they different?

Quote
U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner urged Libya's National Transitional Council (NTC) to determine the precise cause and circumstances of Gaddafi's death "in an open and transparent manner."

Meanwhile, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said, "The way his death happened poses an entire number of questions."

"The images we saw on television show that he was taken prisoner while wounded, and then later, once already a prisoner, his life was taken away," he said, demanding a probe.

Alex Stubb, Finnish minister for European affairs and foreign trade, said Saturday Gaddafi's "violent death serves no one any justice."

"We would have liked things to take place in a different fashion, but there is very little point or possibility to cry over spilt milk," Stubb said.

Ghana's Deputy Minister of Information Ahmed Baba Jamal said the killing of Gaddafi violated international law.

"Even in international law, when you arrest a war prisoner, you give him fair trial and the due process is followed," he said, "But the way Gaddafi was arrested, dragged on the ground and finally killed was not in line with international law and practice."

U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay also called for an investigation under international monitoring as "the circumstances are still unclear."

On Saturday, Jibril said in an interview with the BBC that he wished Gaddafi had not been killed and instead taken to court for his crimes.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-10/23/c_131207741.htm
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2011, 04:22:09 PM »

1. I would have liked to have seen a trial, but I in no way am sad to see Gaddafi dead.

2. How is this thread not named "Gaddafi won't run in 2012"?
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