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Author Topic: Fourth of July Reflections  (Read 7026 times)
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Drazzil
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« on: July 05, 2008, 06:07:40 AM »

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When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.


I have been pondering this great document and the History of the United States of America for a while now, and I have come to certain conclusions.

Whatever may happen to our nation in the future, this one document, this rather simple and straightforward statement of the inherent rights of mankind will burn as a great beacon and an example to not only our Country, but to states yet founded and peoples yet born. It will be boilerplate for any founding nations constitution.

This delcaration of independance is a truly revolutionary concept. That all PEOPLE were created equal. Up until this date, the belief was in the divine right of kings. Throughout the last fifteen hundred years by and large one extended family held stead over the entire western world. Your role was whatever you were born into and that is what you were. History up until that moment was a mismash of stop and start efforts, slow and sometimes non existant writings on the role of a man in the world. Democracy on a limited basis had been tried in Greece and the Roman Republic but it was nothing like what had been penned and signed in the British Colonies Virginia, New Jersey, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland,Connecticut,Rhode Island,Delaware and North Carolina. The scope of this had yet to be stated yet to be even imagined.

What had been up until then a slow trickle of ideas on the rights of man had turned into a deluge and then a torrent as the news of this revolution and founding of a nation based on the ideas penned above rang like a hammer on a bell. The nations of Europe filled with their dusty ideals of the rights and priveledges of arisocracy and the downtrodden many sat up and took notice, and were forced to change the way they conducted government themselves.

In the next two hundred and fifty years this idea would grow and change to include more and more of what the original authors had intended all along through demonstrations, leglisation, marches civil disturbances and a bloody civil war. Throughout the history of the United States we have I believe, for all of our warts and tragedies and misguided laws and policies... Changed the world for the better. Democrat and Republican, Independant and Libertarian, regardless of our beliefs we are all American, and we all follow our beliefs and believe in the ideas set forth in the declaration of Independance as we strive towards a more perfect union...

Happy Fourth of July and God Bless America.

-Drazzil

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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2008, 07:30:34 AM »

 Bring your own!
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM »

Quote from: Drazzil on July 05, 2008, 06:07:40 AM

I have been pondering this great document and the History of the United States of America for a while now.

No you haven't

Quote from: Drazzil
Whatever may happen to our nation in the future, this one document, this rather simple and straightforward statement of the inherent rights of mankind will burn as a great beacon and an example to not only our Country, but to states yet founded and peoples yet born. It will be boilerplate for any founding nations constitution.

That couldn't have come off any more as any more cocky.

Quote from: Drazzil
This delcaration of independance is a truly revolutionary concept.

Besides the politic decision to lay most ills at the feat of George III to create a convenient little scapegoat. Otherwise I don't view it as that revolutionary - unlike the French or Russian revolutions it doesn't signficantly transfer political power from one group or class to another - look at who posses political power before the American Revolution and after - rich southern planters, northerm merchants, etc. Political power remains in the same place. Just take a look at the 1792 election when you have a total of just over 13,000 votes, this isn't highly democratic or revolutionary by any nature. Lets just forget the plight of African-Americans for a second - even after the American Revolution about half of white males didn't have the vote.

I've never been a huge proponent of the American "Revolution" no matter what some such as Calvin might say. In my opinion it isn't revolutionary - political and economic power stayed with the same elements of society. The only large transferrence of power was political, and this only from one side of the Atlantic to the other.

Quote from: Drazzil
That all PEOPLE were created equal. Up until this date, the belief was in the divine right of kings.

Why don't you learn about the things your talking about before you spew off jinoistic posts - by the period of War for American Independence the monarch is clearly subordinated to Parliament - the divine right of kings might have been standard still among continental Europe but certainly not in Great Britain. Charles I and Charles II could clearly attest to that. Besides this, its clear from the rights of suffrage that the notion of all people being created equally was a sham until well into the twentieth century.

Quote from: Drazzil
Throughout the last fifteen hundred years by and large one extended family held stead over the entire western world.

Getting ahead of yourself. You paint too large a brush by saying that all of Europe was ruled by one family, maybe read a book or two about European history - besides America has had its own issues about certain families or classes of having a preponderance of political or economic power.

Quote from: Drazzil
Your role was whatever you were born into and that is what you were. History up until that moment was a mismash of stop and start efforts, slow and sometimes non existant writings on the role of a man in the world.

The American Revolution changed these how? Economically the advancement of newcomers in America was always less to do with the American Revolution that with the lack of an established herierchacal order in America as opposed to Europe, at least in the first few centuries.

Quote from: Drazzil
Democracy on a limited basis had been tried in Greece and the Roman Republic but it was nothing like what had been penned and signed in the British Colonies Virginia, New Jersey, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland,Connecticut,Rhode Island,Delaware and North Carolina. The scope of this had yet to be stated yet to be even imagined.

Democracy had been better practiced in Greece - Rome had never pretended to be a Democracy but a Republic. Nor has the United States pretended to be a Democracy, but a Republic. At least examine the issue of suffrage and the certain lack of it within Amerca up till the start of the twentieth century.

Quote from: Drazzil
What had been up until then a slow trickle of ideas on the rights of man had turned into a deluge and then a torrent as the news of this revolution and founding of a nation based on the ideas penned above rang like a hammer on a bell. The nations of Europe filled with their dusty ideals of the rights and priveledges of arisocracy and the downtrodden many sat up and took notice, and were forced to change the way they conducted government themselves.

Did you copy this from a sxith grade history book? You've got a core idea that is somewhat right, but could it sound more nationalist? I'm still basing this on a perhap more than slightly leftist view, but its clear that rights in every country have always been based upon who had wealth, prestige, and power than anything else and the United States has certainly not changed this fundamentally.

Quote from: Drazzil
In the next two hundred and fifty years this idea would grow and change to include more and more of what the original authors had intended all along through demonstrations, leglisation, marches civil disturbances and a bloody civil war. Throughout the history of the United States we have I believe, for all of our warts and tragedies and misguided laws and policies... Changed the world for the better. Democrat and Republican, Independant and Libertarian, regardless of our beliefs we are all American, and we all follow our beliefs and believe in the ideas set forth in the declaration of Independance as we strive towards a more perfect union...

Happy Fourth of July and God Bless America.

-Drazzil

Could have probably just posted this and had a better all around effort.
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 12:38:59 PM »

Note to self:  Do not post anything regarding US history on this board without first matching CSL's book reading output.  slywink
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 12:44:20 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on July 05, 2008, 12:38:59 PM

Note to self:  Do not post anything regarding US history on this board without first matching CSL's book reading output.  slywink

+1!
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM »

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...

I actually didnt believe the arrogance that some movies portray regarding US being a "Beacon of light" to the rest of the world existed...until now...

While its good to have pride in ones nation, please, take a look around you first, before claiming you can pwn us all with your shining light.

thanks
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 02:52:22 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...

I actually didnt believe the arrogance that some movies portray regarding US being a "Beacon of light" to the rest of the world existed...until now...

While its good to have pride in ones nation, please, take a look around you first, before claiming you can pwn us all with your shining light.

thanks


We are taught (or were, when I was a tadger) that human history is a progression in fits and starts toward ever-greater freedom and democracy, liberalism and populism. Our national mythos holds that America is the inevitable pinnacle of this progression...and implies that our duty is to spread it through the world. This assumption is seldom stated openly, but it underlies elementary history education -- the same assumption that puts humans at the apex of physical evolution.

It's possible that these underlying assumptions have changed in the decades since I was schooled.

The US was founded with soaring rhetoric and noble principles. It has seldom lived up to them, but in most Americans' minds our country is a force for good -- truth, justice, and the American way. Our current administration's most lasting damage is not to our image with the rest of the world, but rather to our own faith in the American mythos.
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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM »

Quiet Drazzil - we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2008, 06:51:47 PM »

Quote from: Laner on July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM

we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.
That's so 2002.

Can individual citizens be trusted to celebrate Independence Day with a bang? This is a great read on the history of Fireworks during the 4th of July.

Quote
Outside of hardcore porn, is there any art form as static as a Fourth of July fireworks display? Once you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all, yet year after year, like stoned zombies staring at screensavers, we tilt our heads to the sky and watch amateurs and professionals alike stage the pyrotechnical equivalents of gang bangs.

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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2008, 07:39:51 PM »

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Besides the politic decision to lay most ills at the feat of George III to create a convenient little scapegoat. Otherwise I don't view it as that revolutionary - unlike the French or Russian revolutions it doesn't signficantly transfer political power from one group or class to another - look at who posses political power before the American Revolution and after - rich southern planters, northerm merchants, etc.


Which is why I called the declaration of independance a revolutionary CONCEPT. perhaps you should actually read what people write before you bother with the eletist holier then thou speeches about how those in power in America remained in power. The concept of the declaration carried forward as a guideline for those who came afterwards.

Quote
Did you copy this from a sxith grade history book? You've got a core idea that is somewhat right, but could it sound more nationalist?

Dont get me wrong, I hate some of the things my country does, but I find that for one day a year, I focus on the sucesses of the US rather then her failures, and they are numerous.

Quote
Why don't you learn about the things your talking about before you spew off jinoistic posts - by the period of War for American Independence the monarch is clearly subordinated to Parliament - the divine right of kings might have been standard still among continental Europe but certainly not in Great Britain.

During that time a substantial amount of power remained in the hands of kings and nobility.
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2008, 07:46:06 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on July 05, 2008, 06:51:47 PM


Can individual citizens be trusted to celebrate Independence Day with a bang? This is a great read on the history of Fireworks during the 4th of July.


"Contributing Editor Greg Beato is a writer in San Francisco."

Well, there ya go.
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2008, 07:57:55 PM »

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil on July 05, 2008, 06:07:40 AM

I have been pondering this great document and the History of the United States of America for a while now.

No you haven't
Love the irony here when your very next statement is: "That couldn't have come off any more as any more cocky." Grammar check, ahem. I guess you really mean to say that Drazzil has a different viewpoint than the Noted Historian and is therefore wrong.

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil
This delcaration of independance is a truly revolutionary concept.
unlike the French or Russian revolutions it doesn't signficantly transfer political power from one group or class to another - look at who posses political power before the American Revolution and after - rich southern planters, northerm merchants, etc. Political power remains in the same place. Just take a look at the 1792 election when you have a total of just over 13,000 votes, this isn't highly democratic or revolutionary by any nature. Lets just forget the plight of African-Americans for a second - even after the American Revolution about half of white males didn't have the vote.
Are you really holding up the French and Russian revolutions as some kind of ideal over the U.S. revolution? Maybe you can point me to the American version of The Terror and explain away Napoleon's power grab of this Republic turning it back into a Monarchy? What happened in America? Oh that's right, Washington turns down ultimate power even though it was offered to him multiple times setting the Revolutionary precedence of transfer of power when your political party loses the election. As for the Russian revolution, come on now, CSL. We both know that political power didn't get transferred anywhere. You just had a new group of thugs take over the government and start slaughtering their own scapegoat. Please point me to the American equivalent of Holodomor or let's talk about everyone's favorite scapegoat: 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews killed during your lovely Revolution of 1917.

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

I've never been a huge proponent of the American "Revolution" no matter what some such as Calvin might say. In my opinion it isn't revolutionary - political and economic power stayed with the same elements of society. The only large transferrence of power was political, and this only from one side of the Atlantic to the other.
You're missing the thing that was truly revolutionary about the American revolution: the godless Constitution. They didn't even give god a token reference like "Providence" or "Him". They were a group of, yes, white men who said the basis of government is the voluntary association of people with common rights based upon their humanity and not because god authorized it. Did it include everyone? Nope. Not even a majority of people since only land owning whiteys could vote. That's not the point though. It created a framework for things like the 13th, 15th and 19th Amendments. And even when we do something stupid like the 18th Amendment we can fix it with the 21st. Aren't living documents awesome that way.

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil
Throughout the last fifteen hundred years by and large one extended family held stead over the entire western world.
Getting ahead of yourself. You paint too large a brush by saying that all of Europe was ruled by one family, maybe read a book or two about European history - besides America has had its own issues about certain families or classes of having a preponderance of political or economic power.
Dude. Get off your elitist horse. He said "by and large" and you said "all". There is a difference. Depending on when you take your snapshot I would say the Holy Roman Empire did cover most Europe for 1500 years. This of course depends on how you define the "western world" and "held stead", but its not a completely outrageous statement.

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil
Your role was whatever you were born into and that is what you were. History up until that moment was a mismash of stop and start efforts, slow and sometimes non existant writings on the role of a man in the world.

The American Revolution changed these how? Economically the advancement of newcomers in America was always less to do with the American Revolution that with the lack of an established herierchacal order in America as opposed to Europe, at least in the first few centuries.
You answered your own question. The U.S. created a framework where the grandson of Irish immigrants can become one of those "certain families or classes of having a preponderance of political or economic power". And if you think that has changed then maybe you can explain the success of this Russian Jew immigrant.

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil
Democracy on a limited basis had been tried in Greece and the Roman Republic but it was nothing like what had been penned and signed in the British Colonies Virginia, New Jersey, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, New York, Maryland,Connecticut,Rhode Island,Delaware and North Carolina. The scope of this had yet to be stated yet to be even imagined.

Democracy had been better practiced in Greece - Rome had never pretended to be a Democracy but a Republic. Nor has the United States pretended to be a Democracy, but a Republic. At least examine the issue of suffrage and the certain lack of it within Amerca up till the start of the twentieth century.
Yeah, yeah, the U.S. isn't a Democracy, but a Republic. This is a common mistake and one elitists live to jump on us less enlightened about.

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil
What had been up until then a slow trickle of ideas on the rights of man had turned into a deluge and then a torrent as the news of this revolution and founding of a nation based on the ideas penned above rang like a hammer on a bell. The nations of Europe filled with their dusty ideals of the rights and priveledges of arisocracy and the downtrodden many sat up and took notice, and were forced to change the way they conducted government themselves.

Did you copy this from a sxith grade history book? You've got a core idea that is somewhat right, but could it sound more nationalist? I'm still basing this on a perhap more than slightly leftist view, but its clear that rights in every country have always been based upon who had wealth, prestige, and power than anything else and the United States has certainly not changed this fundamentally.
You keep reminding me of this scene from "Good Will Hunting". As for whether the U.S. has changed anything fundamentally I would ask the 80% of the first generation millionaires.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 02:13:57 AM by Moliere » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2008, 07:59:05 PM »

Quote from: Drazzil on July 05, 2008, 06:07:40 AM

Democrat and Republican, Independant and Libertarian, regardless of our beliefs we are all American, and we all follow our beliefs and believe in the ideas set forth in the declaration of Independance as we strive towards a more perfect union...



Let's not go overboard.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2008, 08:27:50 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on July 05, 2008, 07:57:55 PM

Quote from: CSL on July 05, 2008, 11:24:21 AM

Quote from: Drazzil on July 05, 2008, 06:07:40 AM

I have been pondering this great document and the History of the United States of America for a while now.

No you haven't
Love the irony here when your very next statement is: "That couldn't have come off any more as any more cocky." Grammar check, ahem. I guess you really mean to say that Drazzil has a different viewpoint than the Noted Historian and is therefore wrong.


I prefer to think of him as a legend in his own mind. Seriously, just because his job lets him read more books than most people doesn't mean much.
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« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2008, 08:29:43 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...


Armegeddon was a magnificent movie that taught me a very valuable lesson about this great country of ours:  if we EVER see a huge friggin' meteor approaching the earth I can negotiate a tax free future by volunteering to sit behind Bruce Willis.

Quote
Seriously, just because his job lets him read more books than most people doesn't mean much.
  reading and comprehending are not always mutually inclusive (as Moliere has so eloquently proven  icon_wink ).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 08:36:12 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2008, 09:22:59 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on July 05, 2008, 06:51:47 PM

Quote from: Laner on July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM

we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.
That's so 2002.

Can individual citizens be trusted to celebrate Independence Day with a bang? This is a great read on the history of Fireworks during the 4th of July.

Quote
Outside of hardcore porn, is there any art form as static as a Fourth of July fireworks display? Once you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all, yet year after year, like stoned zombies staring at screensavers, we tilt our heads to the sky and watch amateurs and professionals alike stage the pyrotechnical equivalents of gang bangs.



What's wrong with hardcore porn?
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« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2008, 09:55:19 PM »

Yeah, CSL likes to piss all over everyone.  It's how he makes himself feel awesome.

Oh and stop being so sensitive Razgon. I doubt that if whatever country it is that you're from (Norway? Finland? Sweden? I can't remember) had established the foundations of modern democracy you'd be pretty proud too.  Not to mention it's the weekend celebrating said document. 

When the annual windmill and wooden shoes holiday comes around feel free to post a thread!  I promise Drazzil won't post that there are alternative means for mashing corn or wheat and that Nike is also a valid model of shoe maker.
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« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2008, 12:04:45 AM »

Quote from: Laner on July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM

Quiet Drazzil - we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.

+1

Gaming boards are as anti-patriotic as they get.


***I believe those who attack America's flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals, and their proven capacity to inspire a better world, do not truly understand America.

Of course, precisely because America isn't perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader or government or policy. As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 12:14:10 AM by msduncan » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2008, 12:54:46 AM »

Quote from: Razgon on July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...

I actually didnt believe the arrogance that some movies portray regarding US being a "Beacon of light" to the rest of the world existed...until now...

While its good to have pride in ones nation, please, take a look around you first, before claiming you can pwn us all with your shining light.

thanks



With all due respect -- everyone has the right to believe that their stuff is the best.     I believe the car I'm getting is the best.    I believe my dog is the greatest.    I certainly tell people I'm married to the best woman in the world, and that my children are the best kids anyone could get.

It's no different with country, and hell fing yes I'm arrogant when it comes to America.    You shouldn't take offense to that at all.    You should go out there and say your country is the best, and I'll give you the big thumbs up.....    thumbsup
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« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2008, 02:18:56 AM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on July 05, 2008, 09:22:59 PM

Quote from: Moliere on July 05, 2008, 06:51:47 PM

Quote from: Laner on July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM

we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.
That's so 2002.

Can individual citizens be trusted to celebrate Independence Day with a bang? This is a great read on the history of Fireworks during the 4th of July.

Quote
Outside of hardcore porn, is there any art form as static as a Fourth of July fireworks display? Once you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all, yet year after year, like stoned zombies staring at screensavers, we tilt our heads to the sky and watch amateurs and professionals alike stage the pyrotechnical equivalents of gang bangs.



What's wrong with hardcore porn?

once you've seen one money shot, you've seen them all.


unless there's a monkey chewing off the guys testicles while it's happening.
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« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2008, 02:21:35 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on July 06, 2008, 12:04:45 AM

Quote from: Laner on July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM

Quiet Drazzil - we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.

+1

Gaming boards are as anti-patriotic as they get.

Uh huh.  Is it video games that make us so anti-patriotic?

Is this you?
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« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2008, 02:27:33 AM »

Let's remember that a true democracy, say Athens, was an empire and a rather chaotic one at that.  Rome began as a Republic and turned into an Empire.  America, founded on the ideals set forth by Athens, Rome, and of course, England, was and some still say, Imperialistic.  I'm proud of my country, at least the Constitution, and I know we can recover from any disaster, both political and economical.  Sure, many view Americans as arrogant, just as we view Europeans as arrogant.  Everyone is arrogant.  What does that mean?  Pride, wearing a flag pin, supporting your football team during the World Cup or Euro Championship, complaining about the legality of using the word champagne?  Look at what happens in Zimbabwe, Somalia, Iraq, Tibet, and elsewhere.  What can an average American or European do to help those people out?  Stage a protest, donate money, join an army, type a post on a message board?  It's the politicians, elected by those Americans and Europeans, that make the decisions that count.  So, vote or enter politics...

Point being, I'm proud of the U.S.A.

Why does ostracism sound so wrong?
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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2008, 02:29:20 AM »

I was rushing to finish my post and get to an appointment I remembered while driving the American Indians. Although not nearly to the raw numbers of Holodomor and Jewish pogroms our actions toward the native population was less than humanitarian. I stand by my point though asking you to explain why the French and Russian Revolutions were so much better than the U.S. version. The typical formula of all revolutions is that minority groups rise up against a common enemy (e.g., George III or Tzar Nicholas II). Once that enemy has been vanquished the strongest of the minority groups or individuals (e.g., Stalin and Napoleon) takes over and becomes the new ruling power usually as ruthless or more so than the previous thugs until another batch up minority groups rise up. I don't think Washington gets enough credit for not becoming a military dictator during the Revolution, not becoming a military dictator after the Revolution and stepping down after two terms in office BEFORE he died. If he had stuck around for a 3rd term and died in office that would have set a terrible precedence. Instead every single President until Teddy never ran for more than 2 terms. As vicious as the debates and rhetoric was between the political parties the only real act of violence between the Founders after they won the revolution was between Hamilton and Burr.
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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2008, 02:31:48 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on July 06, 2008, 02:21:35 AM

Quote from: msduncan on July 06, 2008, 12:04:45 AM

Quote from: Laner on July 05, 2008, 04:01:35 PM

Quiet Drazzil - we'll have none of this pro-America talk here.

+1

Gaming boards are as anti-patriotic as they get.

Uh huh.  Is it video games that make us so anti-patriotic?

Is this you?

I didn't say unpatriotic.   I said anti-patriotic.   Big difference.
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2008, 02:36:24 AM »

So, it's not you?

I'm anti-jingoism.  There's a lot of things we've done right, and there's a lot of things we've done wrong.  It is equally important to acknowledge the wrong things so that we can strive to fix them and live up to the promise (and premise) of our constitution.
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2008, 02:43:03 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on July 06, 2008, 02:36:24 AM

So, it's not you?

I'm anti-jingoism.  There's a lot of things we've done right, and there's a lot of things we've done wrong.  It is equally important to acknowledge the wrong things so that we can strive to fix them and live up to the promise (and premise) of our constitution.

I'll requote:
I believe those who attack America's flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals, and their proven capacity to inspire a better world, do not truly understand America.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2008, 03:12:42 AM »

CSL,
Just coming out with what seems like is a rabid, knee-jerk reaction is hardly worthy of a serious scholar.
My two cents.
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« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2008, 03:58:49 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on July 05, 2008, 07:30:34 AM

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« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2008, 06:35:38 AM »

Quote from: Drazzil on July 05, 2008, 06:07:40 AM

Buncha stuff

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2649193

PS: Why isn't this in P&R?
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« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2008, 12:16:59 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on July 05, 2008, 02:52:22 PM

Quote from: Razgon on July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...

I actually didnt believe the arrogance that some movies portray regarding US being a "Beacon of light" to the rest of the world existed...until now...

While its good to have pride in ones nation, please, take a look around you first, before claiming you can pwn us all with your shining light.

thanks


We are taught (or were, when I was a tadger) that human history is a progression in fits and starts toward ever-greater freedom and democracy, liberalism and populism. Our national mythos holds that America is the inevitable pinnacle of this progression...and implies that our duty is to spread it through the world. This assumption is seldom stated openly, but it underlies elementary history education -- the same assumption that puts humans at the apex of physical evolution.

It's possible that these underlying assumptions have changed in the decades since I was schooled.

The US was founded with soaring rhetoric and noble principles. It has seldom lived up to them, but in most Americans' minds our country is a force for good -- truth, justice, and the American way. Our current administration's most lasting damage is not to our image with the rest of the world, but rather to our own faith in the American mythos.

thats what I was afraid of. Sounds more or less like indoctrination which is dangerous, but thankfully I also believe that people are taught to think for themselves in the US, thus making them able to see beyond the roote learnings of youth.

Quote from: msduncan on July 06, 2008, 12:54:46 AM

Quote from: Razgon on July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...

I actually didnt believe the arrogance that some movies portray regarding US being a "Beacon of light" to the rest of the world existed...until now...

While its good to have pride in ones nation, please, take a look around you first, before claiming you can pwn us all with your shining light.

thanks



With all due respect -- everyone has the right to believe that their stuff is the best.     I believe the car I'm getting is the best.    I believe my dog is the greatest.    I certainly tell people I'm married to the best woman in the world, and that my children are the best kids anyone could get.

It's no different with country, and hell fing yes I'm arrogant when it comes to America.    You shouldn't take offense to that at all.    You should go out there and say your country is the best, and I'll give you the big thumbs up.....    thumbsup

sure you have that right, as I have the right to call arrogance extreme, when I see it. And I dont believe my country is the "best", I believe in people, not countries - unless you'r a hivemind, there's no such thing as a unified and equal country whose people are all the same and supergreat people.

Quote from: ATB on July 05, 2008, 09:55:19 PM

Yeah, CSL likes to piss all over everyone.  It's how he makes himself feel awesome.

Oh and stop being so sensitive Razgon. I doubt that if whatever country it is that you're from (Norway? Finland? Sweden? I can't remember) had established the foundations of modern democracy you'd be pretty proud too.  Not to mention it's the weekend celebrating said document. 

When the annual windmill and wooden shoes holiday comes around feel free to post a thread!  I promise Drazzil won't post that there are alternative means for mashing corn or wheat and that Nike is also a valid model of shoe maker.

I'm from Denmark, and we dont wear wooden shoes. And no, you people didnt establish the foundations of modern democracy - sorry to bust your bubble there.

And I'm not really being sensitive, I call things as I see them - isnt that what this forum is all about? Congrats on the document though, its a nice document, would be equally nice of people lived up to it, right?

I can actually make a grand document as well, doesnt make me a better person though..

actions, not words, are what counts in my world.

edit: and hey, the mere fact that you think my country's only contribution to the world, especially compared to the greatness of the US are "windmills and woodens shoes" kinda proves my point.

I guess that a mostly US based forum is the wrong place to question these things though...to bad, really...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 12:19:42 PM by Razgon » Logged

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« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2008, 01:51:33 PM »

Quote

sure you have that right, as I have the right to call arrogance extreme, when I see it. And I dont believe my country is the "best", I believe in people, not countries - unless you'r a hivemind, there's no such thing as a unified and equal country whose people are all the same and supergreat people.

I believe in our great foundation -- the Constitution.    I believe in the principles upon which it was constructed.      I believe it has allowed our country to propell us and the world into the modern era you see around you.    Before the United States, the world was mired in monarchy.

Quote
I'm from Denmark, and we dont wear wooden shoes.
The shot taken at windmills and wooden shoes was wrong, but I think done in jest.     Denmark is a great country with great people.

Quote
And no, you people didnt establish the foundations of modern democracy - sorry to bust your bubble there.

Uh... yes we did.    Before the United States stood up our Democratic Republic, it has been antiquity since someone had tried Democracy.    Unless you consider antiquity as being the modern....

Quote
And I'm not really being sensitive, I call things as I see them - isnt that what this forum is all about? Congrats on the document though, its a nice document, would be equally nice of people lived up to it, right?

"what makes America great has never been its perfection but the belief that it can be made better. I came to understand that our revolution was waged for the sake of that belief - that we could be governed by laws, not men; that we could be equal in the eyes of those laws; that we could be free to say what we want and assemble with whomever we want and worship as we please; that we could have the right to pursue our individual dreams but the obligation to help our fellow citizens pursue theirs."

Quote
I can actually make a grand document as well, doesnt make me a better person though..

actions, not words, are what counts in my world.

Let's see...   The automobile.  The assembly line.   The phone.   The harnessing of electricity.   The airplane.   The air conditioner.   Atomic energy.  Manned exploration of the moon.   Scientific exploration of the outer solar system.   The television.   Movies.  And the internet you are enjoying right now.     America propelled the world into two different ages in 200 years...first the Industrial, and now the Information.

All made possible by the freedom to innovate, own, invent, communicate, and invest in ideas.   All made possible by that 'grand document'.

Quote
edit: and hey, the mere fact that you think my country's only contribution to the world, especially compared to the greatness of the US are "windmills and woodens shoes" kinda proves my point.

I guess that a mostly US based forum is the wrong place to question these things though...to bad, really...

You point can't be proven by merely a grumpy ATB responding to a slight against America on her birthday.

Perhaps your 'indoctrination', as you call it, neglects to teach what the world was like when this document was written?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 01:57:15 PM by msduncan » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2008, 02:24:35 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on July 06, 2008, 12:16:59 PM

Quote from: Ironrod on July 05, 2008, 02:52:22 PM

Quote from: Razgon on July 05, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

As a non-american, to me the OP's statements contains astounding levels of national elitism and self-centeredness (and I'm trying so hard to refrain from using words that I'll regret) I've not seen since Armageddon...

I actually didnt believe the arrogance that some movies portray regarding US being a "Beacon of light" to the rest of the world existed...until now...

While its good to have pride in ones nation, please, take a look around you first, before claiming you can pwn us all with your shining light.

thanks


We are taught (or were, when I was a tadger) that human history is a progression in fits and starts toward ever-greater freedom and democracy, liberalism and populism. Our national mythos holds that America is the inevitable pinnacle of this progression...and implies that our duty is to spread it through the world. This assumption is seldom stated openly, but it underlies elementary history education -- the same assumption that puts humans at the apex of physical evolution.

It's possible that these underlying assumptions have changed in the decades since I was schooled.

The US was founded with soaring rhetoric and noble principles. It has seldom lived up to them, but in most Americans' minds our country is a force for good -- truth, justice, and the American way. Our current administration's most lasting damage is not to our image with the rest of the world, but rather to our own faith in the American mythos.

thats what I was afraid of. Sounds more or less like indoctrination which is dangerous, but thankfully I also believe that people are taught to think for themselves in the US, thus making them able to see beyond the roote learnings of youth.

The majority of people in any group accept what they're taught at face value, especially if the message is consistently reinforced time and again. Critical thinking takes effort, we aren't taught to do it, and we aren't naturally good at it. Fortunately, it matters little what the majority of people think. The elite do question and think critically. Maybe they embrace the mythos for their own good, but they know what that flag pin really means.

Before the current administration rattled our faith, most Americans really did believe that this country is morally superior to the rest. That belief is durable -- 200 years of myth-making aren't swept away by eight years of incompetence. The mythos has a good foundation in fact, after all, or it would not be so successful. If the rest of the world has a very different opinion of America's intentions...well, who cares what a bunch of foreigners think?  slywink

Quote from: warning on July 06, 2008, 06:35:38 AM

PS: Why isn't this in P&R?

Beats me. It's interesting to get a broader cross section of opinions than the usual P&R suspects, though.
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« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2008, 02:28:07 PM »

this really should go to R&P, though.  As it stands it's quickly becoming a flash fire. i personally prefer to see Off Topic remain full of goofy, fun posts and personal stories of car trouble, health issues and sexual dysfunction. 
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« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2008, 03:12:03 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on July 06, 2008, 02:28:07 PM

i personally prefer to see Off Topic remain full of goofy, fun posts and personal stories of car trouble, health issues and sexual dysfunction. 

Can you recommend an HDTV for me?
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« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2008, 03:40:57 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on July 06, 2008, 03:12:03 PM

Quote from: hepcat on July 06, 2008, 02:28:07 PM

i personally prefer to see Off Topic remain full of goofy, fun posts and personal stories of car trouble, health issues and sexual dysfunction. 

Can you recommend an HDTV for me?

52 inch Sharp Aquos.     Abes of Maine is where I found the best deal.   Amazing set!
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« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2008, 03:50:51 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on July 06, 2008, 12:16:59 PM

I guess that a mostly US based forum is the wrong place to question these things though...to bad, really...
Question anything you want. But if you did so with some actual arguments other than, "nuh uh" it'd be cool. I'd enjoy a good debate here.

And holy crap, CSL, don't you have a spellchecker?
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« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2008, 04:07:43 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on July 06, 2008, 12:16:59 PM

And no, you people didnt establish the foundations of modern democracy - sorry to bust your bubble there.

Who did? Depending on how you measure the influence of the monarchy in England, I believe the U.S. has the longest running modern government. That kind of staying power over the last 216 years should count for something.
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« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2008, 04:11:06 PM »

The phone?  I thought Bell was in Nova Scotia when he invented the phone (at least that's where the museum was I went to).  I jest.  I still think Democracy came about before the American Revolution, but then my history books are probably skewed in favor of the British.
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« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2008, 04:20:49 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on July 06, 2008, 03:50:51 PM

Quote from: Razgon on July 06, 2008, 12:16:59 PM

I guess that a mostly US based forum is the wrong place to question these things though...to bad, really...
Question anything you want. But if you did so with some actual arguments other than, "nuh uh" it'd be cool. I'd enjoy a good debate here.

And holy crap, CSL, don't you have a spellchecker?

Do you know how drunk I was that night.
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« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2008, 04:22:23 PM »

Quote from: IceBear on July 06, 2008, 04:11:06 PM

I still think Democracy came about before the American Revolution,

For sure, but what about "modern" democracy, however that should be defined from things like Athens in 500 BCE?
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