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Author Topic: Finally, the President gets it...  (Read 5804 times)
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Brendan
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« on: May 14, 2008, 09:50:48 PM »

About time.

....



....


Yeah.
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Pyperkub
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 10:06:05 PM »

Did Cheney ever give up hunting?  Seems like it would be more appropriate  icon_twisted
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cheeba
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 01:12:05 AM »

So you don't think he "got it" when he was in tears as he posthumously awarded the medal of honor to a Navy SEAL who threw himself on a grenade?

You know, you don't have to demonize those you disagree with. Sometimes the people you disagree with can even be good people.
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Geezer
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 02:53:00 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 01:12:05 AM

So you don't think he "got it" when he was in tears as he posthumously awarded the medal of honor to a Navy SEAL who threw himself on a grenade?

You know, you don't have to demonize those you disagree with. Sometimes the people you disagree with can even be good people.

Regardless.  The golf thing is pathetic and you know it.
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 02:54:17 AM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 01:12:05 AM

Sometimes the people you disagree with can even be good people.

Bush ain't one of 'em.
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cheeba
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 03:38:01 AM »

Quote from: Geezer on May 15, 2008, 02:53:00 AM

Regardless.  The golf thing is pathetic and you know it.
Pathetic how? Personally I loathe golf and just about everything having to do with the non-sport, so any excuse for not playing is a good enough one for me.
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Brendan
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 03:54:44 AM »

Hey, cheeba, if you had a family member or friend doing active duty service in Iraq or Afghanistan right now, you'd find it a compelling tribute that the President were quitting golf?  (We'll ignore the evidence that he apparently quit because of injury instead.)  You'd think "Wow - that's truly meaningful.  My spouse/cousin/father/son is risking their life every day, so it makes total sense that the President would quit golf in sympathy."  That about right?
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cheeba
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 04:02:07 AM »

Bush is right, I wouldn't want to see the president playing golf. But Bush is not making the argument that it is a compelling tribute for him to quit. He is just saying he doesn't think it appropriate for people to see him playing golf.

I wouldn't think, "that's truly meaningful." I would think, "yes, that's appropriate that he not play golf."
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Brendan
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 04:13:44 AM »

See, here's the thing:

It might be almost barely meaningful if the President also stopped setting records for number of vacation days taken, stopped clearing brush on his vanity ranch, stopped mountain biking, and didn't show up on the set of deal-or-no-fucking-deal, but a lot more meaningful if he started attending some funerals and visiting Walter Reed more than twice a year.  It's more important that the President acknowledge the thousands of lives that have been ruined or ended because of his elective war.  I think that not "playing golf during a war" does not show any "solidarity" with "some whose kid recently died," but instead exposes the total and utter shallowness of a mental midget.

Do you know anyone on active duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, cheeba?
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Geezer
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 05:24:17 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 15, 2008, 04:13:44 AM

See, here's the thing:

It might be almost barely meaningful if the President also stopped setting records for number of vacation days taken, stopped clearing brush on his vanity ranch, stopped mountain biking, and didn't show up on the set of deal-or-no-fucking-deal, but a lot more meaningful if he started attending some funerals and visiting Walter Reed more than twice a year.  It's more important that the President acknowledge the thousands of lives that have been ruined or ended because of his elective war.  I think that not "playing golf during a war" does not show any "solidarity" with "some whose kid recently died," but instead exposes the total and utter shallowness of a mental midget.

But.. We're *at war*.  See?
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Brendan
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 05:28:14 AM »

Geezer, you've totally changed my perspective.  It all makes so much sense, now.  I expect that we'll always be at war with Oceania.  Or Eurasia.  One of those.

Keith Olbermann, my fellow liberal hyena, had a fantastic piece tonight that relates to this important story.  I feel a kinship with Keith, as my personal "incidences of righteous anger" count has increased ten thousand fold during the Bush presidency.
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cheeba
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 10:43:49 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 15, 2008, 04:13:44 AM

See, here's the thing:

It might be almost barely meaningful if the President also stopped setting records for number of vacation days taken, stopped clearing brush on his vanity ranch, stopped mountain biking, and didn't show up on the set of deal-or-no-fucking-deal, but a lot more meaningful if he started attending some funerals and visiting Walter Reed more than twice a year.  It's more important that the President acknowledge the thousands of lives that have been ruined or ended because of his elective war.  I think that not "playing golf during a war" does not show any "solidarity" with "some whose kid recently died," but instead exposes the total and utter shallowness of a mental midget.

Do you know anyone on active duty in Iraq or Afghanistan, cheeba?
What a bunch of specious crap.

Anyone with any intelligence knows that the president can never truly take a vacation day. The "football" follows him wherever he goes. He receives updates from the various departments every day. He is able to function as easily from Crawford as he is from the White House.

He showed up on Deal or No Deal to honor a decorated veteran, whose mother was sitting in the audience crying with pride as he received the message. Yeah that's a total dishonor to the military.

As for attending military funerals, do you read all these liberal blogs with no critical thought whatsoever? You obviously didn't do any research. FDR attended no military funerals. LBJ attended 2 - he knew both personally. Nixon attended none. Carter attended a memorial service. Bush 1 didn't attend any. Clinton didn't attend funerals. He attended memorial services. Kind of makes sense for a president, with the large entourage and security that necessarily follows him everywhere, along with the large press corps, to not make a spectacle of what should be a private ceremony for the family/friends of the deceased, no?

Again, I will reiterate that President Bush is not making a big deal of not playing golf. He simply thinks it inappropriate at this time. I know your immature mind for some reason needs to demonize him and think of him as evil because you disagree with him, but he is still a man. He's a man who believes in his heart that these wars are the right thing. He knows he's sending people to their deaths. Can you imagine how hard that must be? I know you can't, because, after all, you *really* disagree with him and so his every action and word are to be mocked and twisted into some cynical catch phrase that you can spew onto an internet forum.

And yes, I've had a couple good friends on active duty in Iraq. One of whom is going back very soon.
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Brendan
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 03:01:32 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 10:43:49 AM

Anyone with any intelligence knows that the president can never truly take a vacation day. The "football" follows him wherever he goes. He receives updates from the various departments every day. He is able to function as easily from Crawford as he is from the White House.

Sure, cheeba.  It's exactly the same when he's in Crawford.  Ordinarily, when he's at the White House, he's doing landscaping.  By your logic, why not play some more fucking golf?  The "football" can follow him to the country club just as easily.  If it's appropriate for him to stop playing golf, "in solidarity" with the people whose kids he's killed, it's appropriate for him to stop taking days off.

Quote
He showed up on Deal or No Deal to honor a decorated veteran, whose mother was sitting in the audience crying with pride as he received the message. Yeah that's a total dishonor to the military.

As for attending military funerals, do you read all these liberal blogs with no critical thought whatsoever? You obviously didn't do any research. FDR attended no military funerals. LBJ attended 2 - he knew both personally. Nixon attended none. Carter attended a memorial service. Bush 1 didn't attend any. Clinton didn't attend funerals. He attended memorial services. Kind of makes sense for a president, with the large entourage and security that necessarily follows him everywhere, along with the large press corps, to not make a spectacle of what should be a private ceremony for the family/friends of the deceased, no?

Your argument here is simply precedent, huh?  That's bullshit.  I don't care about previous Presidents, I care about this one, and I want him to show regret and remorse for the families he's ruined in service of a cause that will never come to fruition.  There are no weapons of mass destruction.  There was no imminent mushroom cloud.  The Iraqi citizens are far far worse off now than they were before we went in there.  He's been to Walter Reed 12 times in 5 years.  Walter Reed is 20 minutes from the White House.  Walter Reed - where he apparently didn't get around to noticing the rats and mold, of course.  Let's compare to someone here in the Northwest, Ted Kulongoski, the governor of Oregon.  Kulongoski is a democrat and former marine - and has attended nearly every funeral or memorial service for the Oregon soldiers that were killed - eighty-plus at this point.  Why?  Because he's aware that Americans are forgetting about the sacrifices our fellow citizens are making in the middle east.  Because there's no draft, this fucking war continues, and it continues at the expense of well-meaning and patriotic soldiers who enlisted expecting their commander-in-chief to only deploy them in real times of need, to ask them to sacrifice their lives only when the stakes were worth it.  So, he attends every funeral, because as he's noted, Oregon would have been a better place if they'd come home alive.  It's one of the most insidious and cunning maneuvers this administration has made that they just continue to abuse the National Guard and IRR - after all, they signed up, huh?

So, fuck the President.

Quote
I know your immature mind for some reason needs to demonize him and think of him as evil because you disagree with him, but he is still a man. He's a man who believes in his heart that these wars are the right thing. He knows he's sending people to their deaths. Can you imagine how hard that must be? I know you can't, because, after all, you *really* disagree with him and so his every action and word are to be mocked and twisted into some cynical catch phrase that you can spew onto an internet forum.

And yes, I've had a couple good friends on active duty in Iraq. One of whom is going back very soon.

If true, you're even less human that I'd previously thought.   Yes, the President is a man - a badly flawed man-child who championed tax cuts that benefited the richest people in the country, fiddled while New Orleans drowned, who attempted to start his universal wiretapping program even before the horrible events of September 11th, condones the torture of people from whom he's stripped habeas corpus, and who knowingly started a war that has cost us a trillion dollars and four thousands American lives with no evidence to back it up.  He is the worst President we have ever had, and god willing, will always be the worst President we've ever had because it would be hard for this country to suffer through another.

I'm angry, "cheeba", because I value people's lives - even Iraqis and Afghanis.  I'm angry because I have a friend in Afghanistan who narrowly avoided death by IED last week, and why is he fucking there, on his third fucking deployment?  Because George Bush is an asshole.   This isn't internet message board bullshit, you anonymous internet tough guy - people are dying every fucking day.
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cheeba
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 03:25:33 PM »

My first response in the thread...

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 01:12:05 AM

You know, you don't have to demonize those you disagree with. Sometimes the people you disagree with can even be good people.

You disagree with me later...

Quote from: Brendan on May 15, 2008, 03:01:32 PM

If true, you're even less human that I'd previously thought.

Point proven. Thank you.

Edited to make the quotes look a little better.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 03:40:09 PM by cheeba » Logged
McNutt
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 03:37:31 PM »

What is involved in a president attending a funeral?  I would imagine the security checks would be pretty substantial and would take away from the service.  The service would be more about "the president's coming!" rather than the soldier being buried.

I understand anger towards the president, but I'm not sure what it is you want him to do.  It's not wise for a leader to talk about how horrible the situation is and openly apologize for sending soldiers into a warzone.  That's a quick way to work against your goal.  He feels what he's doing is right, so why would he want to hurt support for that effort?  As for the golf comment, what's the big deal with it?  He wasn't wearing a shirt that said "I'm not playing golf, what are you doing for our soldiers."  He stopped playing golf and didn't make a big deal out if it.  Why should we?
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2008, 03:43:17 PM »

Brendan I don't mean this a snarky comment, but what will you do when Obama is president and he's unable to fix everything that's wrong?  Will you have the same vitriol for him or will the fact that he's liberal shield him from your righteous fury?
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2008, 03:56:54 PM »

Quote from: ATB on May 15, 2008, 03:43:17 PM

Brendan I don't mean this a snarky comment, but what will you do when Obama is president and he's unable to fix everything that's wrong?  Will you have the same vitriol for him or will the fact that he's liberal shield him from your righteous fury?

Bush is infuriating in his self-rightousness and scorned because of he seemingly has so little depth to his concern, all the while looking oh-so-serious and spouting off about how we're "at war."

He's the dickhead frat boy that acts like an asshole, KNOWS he acts like an asshole, revels in acting like said asshole and gets away with it.

Personally, *I* can't believe that the loss of lives in Iraq and Afghanistan don't weigh heavily on him.  I just think that he is horribly inappropriate at expressing that, while at the same time believing that he should command a respect from the American people that he hasn't earned and doesn't deserve.

I see Cheeba's point - Yes, being the President of the United States and being seen hitting the links every week while you have defined yourself around the Very Serious State of War We Are In and are continually calling for sacrifice is inappropriate, and I applaud W for realizing the incongruity.  But for him to hold that up as an example of.. something.. is just blindingly insensitive and stupid, and worthy of ridicule.   It's like if 20% of people in the country couldn't afford gas, and I, as  president, announced that I was going to stop driving my tractor trailer  on weekends and switch to my Hummer out of solidarity with those who had to cutback on gas.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 03:59:47 PM by Geezer » Logged
Brendan
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2008, 04:29:02 PM »

Quote from: McNutt on May 15, 2008, 03:37:31 PM

I understand anger towards the president, but I'm not sure what it is you want him to do.  It's not wise for a leader to talk about how horrible the situation is and openly apologize for sending soldiers into a warzone.  That's a quick way to work against your goal.  He feels what he's doing is right, so why would he want to hurt support for that effort?  As for the golf comment, what's the big deal with it?  He wasn't wearing a shirt that said "I'm not playing golf, what are you doing for our soldiers."  He stopped playing golf and didn't make a big deal out if it.  Why should we?

He's the one who made "a big deal" out of the golf issue.  He could've said "No, my injuries preclude my playing golf," but he instead claimed it was some sort of ridiculous sympathetic measure.  Even if it were true that he'd stopped playing golf after the UN staffers were killed (though it's clearly not), it's not a substantive action and it's insanely myopic to think that it's any sort of sacrifice.  Instead of making an insensitive and tone-deaf comment, he should've demurred and, instead, gone to see some of the soldiers living with life-altering injuries to apologize, express sympathy, and promise them that they will have the medical care they need for the rest of their lives, regardless of whether they're full active duty, or National Guard.
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Brendan
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2008, 04:34:05 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 03:25:33 PM

blah blah blah whine whine blah blah

Yeah, you're definitely Mister Moral High Ground.  Take your apologias to some other thread if you're feeling sensitive.  Your personal attacks won't diminish my arguments and I'm not some milquetoast democrat willing to give you a pass when the crocodile tears flow.
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2008, 04:40:40 PM »

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UPDATE II: Bush actually played his last round of golf on October 13, 2003.  This means that the reason he gave for quitting after the August 2003 U.N. bombing is dubious at best.  More likely, he made the story up in a clumsy ploy to gain sympathy.  In many regions and cultures around the world, this is called "lying." 

Read the article, there are two updates.
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2008, 04:48:57 PM »

The Olbermann commentary has a picture of him playing golf in October.  It's all just more bullshit.
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2008, 04:52:06 PM »

Does he still get to chip golf balls on the White House Lawn?  Or is that offensive to the troops too?

This entire topic is ridiculous.  The soldiers in Iraq are there doing their jobs.  They were not drafted.  They joined the military of their own choosing.  I doubt whether or not the President plays golf on his off days matters to them at all.
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2008, 04:56:43 PM »

BURN HIM, NOW!
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2008, 05:09:48 PM »

Now that he's quit playing golf, doesn't this mean that the terrorists won?
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Brendan
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2008, 05:26:43 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on May 15, 2008, 04:52:06 PM

Does he still get to chip golf balls on the White House Lawn?  Or is that offensive to the troops too?

This entire topic is ridiculous.  The soldiers in Iraq are there doing their jobs.  They were not drafted.  They joined the military of their own choosing.  I doubt whether or not the President plays golf on his off days matters to them at all.

You've misread.  His abstinence is purportedly to show sympathy to the families of dead soldiers.

The point is entirely that his statement was ridiculous.  Ridiculous and offensive.  The families of dead soldiers don't care about his golf game.  The issue is his belief that they do care, when it's not about his fucking golf game at all, it's about the lives cut short by his misadventure.

As for your conclusion, I'm sure you understand that people who join military branches do so with the expectation that they'll be led by someone who cares about their lives and won't squander them in a never-ending pipedream.
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2008, 05:32:22 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 01:12:05 AM

So you don't think he "got it" when he was in tears as he posthumously awarded the medal of honor to a Navy SEAL who threw himself on a grenade?

You know, you don't have to demonize those you disagree with. Sometimes the people you disagree with can even be good people.

I don't think he's all that bad a person.  I do think he's a horrible president.  I don't think he has it in him to be a good president, and over the past 7+ years we probably needed a great president. What we got wasn't even close.

In this case, I also think he's lying for political gain. If he were serious, he would ban all officers in the armed forces from playing golf too.
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2008, 05:36:48 PM »

I think that the issue here is that it seems like he is comparing a soldier's sacrifice to that of him giving up his golf game.  They don't equate on this planet or any other, making the statement completely retarded.
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2008, 05:39:23 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 15, 2008, 05:26:43 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on May 15, 2008, 04:52:06 PM

Does he still get to chip golf balls on the White House Lawn?  Or is that offensive to the troops too?

This entire topic is ridiculous.  The soldiers in Iraq are there doing their jobs.  They were not drafted.  They joined the military of their own choosing.  I doubt whether or not the President plays golf on his off days matters to them at all.

You've misread.  His abstinence is purportedly to show sympathy to the families of dead soldiers.

The point is entirely that his statement was ridiculous.  .

Know what? Presidents have done this through time....like NOT throwing out the first pitch on opening day for the same exact reason.
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2008, 06:07:27 PM »

Quote from: ATB on May 15, 2008, 05:39:23 PM

Quote from: Brendan on May 15, 2008, 05:26:43 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on May 15, 2008, 04:52:06 PM

Does he still get to chip golf balls on the White House Lawn?  Or is that offensive to the troops too?

This entire topic is ridiculous.  The soldiers in Iraq are there doing their jobs.  They were not drafted.  They joined the military of their own choosing.  I doubt whether or not the President plays golf on his off days matters to them at all.

You've misread.  His abstinence is purportedly to show sympathy to the families of dead soldiers.

The point is entirely that his statement was ridiculous.  .

Know what? Presidents have done this through time....like NOT throwing out the first pitch on opening day for the same exact reason.

Yes, but for them to cite that as an example of their understanding of the grave situation we were in would have been goofy.
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« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2008, 06:29:31 PM »

I'm not sure I get what you mean, but it's precisely what is stated here  ninja2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_first_pitch

Oh and IIRC there was another one president (Eisenhower?) who specifically gave up golf during a time of war...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 06:31:03 PM by ATB » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2008, 06:30:49 PM »

He thought it looked bad for him to be playing golf during a time of war so he stopped.  Someone asked him about it and he talked about it.  I understand the need for people to portray the man as a heartless warmongering demon, but this is getting blown way out of proportion.  Should he have kept playing?  Should he have lied about why he stopped?  I doubt he or anyone expects that this will have any impact on veterans or their families. 
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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2008, 06:34:49 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on May 15, 2008, 06:30:49 PM

Should he have lied about why he stopped? 

He did lie about why he stopped - in the most self-serving possible fashion.
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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2008, 06:42:26 PM »

Quote from: Pyperkub on May 15, 2008, 05:32:22 PM

I don't think he's all that bad a person.
K.
Quote
I do think he's a horrible president.  I don't think he has it in him to be a good president, and over the past 7+ years we probably needed a great president. What we got wasn't even close.
How is that even the least bit relevant to the topic?
Quote
In this case, I also think he's lying for political gain. If he were serious, he would ban all officers in the armed forces from playing golf too.
Then how can you think he's not a bad person?

What's funny to me is that you guys think he's not playing golf due to an injury. IT'S FUCKING GOLF. The President, an avid runner, has not been injured for the past 5 years to the point where he can't slap a little ball with a club.
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« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2008, 06:43:51 PM »

Quote from: Pyperkub on May 15, 2008, 05:32:22 PM

In this case, I also think he's lying for political gain. If he were serious, he would ban all officers in the armed forces from playing golf too.

Man, that would suck for retention.....
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« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2008, 06:48:00 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 15, 2008, 06:34:49 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on May 15, 2008, 06:30:49 PM

Should he have lied about why he stopped?

He did lie about why he stopped - in the most self-serving possible fashion.

But the point is he did stop.   icon_biggrin

I guess I understand your outrage.  It's just that as person with 2 Iraq war veterans in my family I simply don't care enough to be outraged.  I'll check with the vets and see how they feel about it.


But by all means be angry as hell if it makes you feel better.
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« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2008, 06:53:41 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on May 15, 2008, 05:36:48 PM

I think that the issue here is that it seems like he is comparing a soldier's sacrifice to that of him giving up his golf game.  They don't equate on this planet or any other, making the statement completely retarded.
What statement makes you think he's making that comparison?
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« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2008, 06:55:04 PM »

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I'll check with the vets and see how they feel about it.

I couldn't care less.  He can take up wicker basket weaving during the war for all I care.
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Ron Burke
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Geezer
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2008, 07:16:34 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on May 15, 2008, 06:30:49 PM

He thought it looked bad for him to be playing golf during a time of war so he stopped.  Someone asked him about it and he talked about it.  I understand the need for people to portray the man as a heartless warmongering demon, but this is getting blown way out of proportion.  Should he have kept playing?  Should he have lied about why he stopped?  I doubt he or anyone expects that this will have any impact on veterans or their families. 

This is a good point.  But it brings up the question of what he was asked.

If the initial question was, "Mr. President.  We notice you haven't hit the links in quite some time. Why is that?"  then it's a perfectly acceptable response IMHO to have answered, "Well, I just think that it's inappropriate for me to be publically chillin' on the course while our guys are dying in the war I started."

OTOH, if the question asked was, "Mr. President, you have often said that you understand and empathize with the sacrifice our troops are making in Iraq.  Can you give me an example of how that plays out in your life?"  and the answers," Well, we all make sacrifices.  Our soldiers have given up their home life, watching their children be born and grow, and in some tragic cases, have even given their lives.  Me?  I've given up golf because I think it looks bad for me to be playing while they are dying."  That's just totally out of touch at very very best.
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cheeba
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2008, 07:20:13 PM »

Quote from: Geezer on May 15, 2008, 07:16:34 PM

This is a good point.  But it brings up the question of what he was asked.
Video here. The question was, "Mr. President, you haven't been golfing in recent years. Is that related to Iraq?"
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Geezer
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« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2008, 07:26:48 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 15, 2008, 07:20:13 PM

Quote from: Geezer on May 15, 2008, 07:16:34 PM

This is a good point.  But it brings up the question of what he was asked.
Video here. The question was, "Mr. President, you haven't been golfing in recent years. Is that related to Iraq?"


In which case, I temporarily  withdraw my mockery.  Now I have to wonder who the hell would ask that question and why?  Ifit was a plant, I will turn my mockery up to 11.
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