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Author Topic: Expelled  (Read 13177 times)
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ATB
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« on: February 14, 2008, 03:38:09 PM »

I saw this trailer and found it interesting in light of all the claims of theocracy and theocratic stormtrooping. Turns out the 'objective' field of science isn't above being blind and biased either.

Looks like an interesting movie.
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ROTC1983
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2008, 08:59:00 PM »

I like Ben Stein as a person...I am definitely going to watch this movie just to see what he has to say.

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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2008, 10:12:33 PM »

I'll watch it, but it does look to be very one sided with the viewpoint of "Us poor Christians are persecuted in this country". I like BS, but jeez he was a bit over dramatic in that clip.
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2008, 11:24:08 PM »

Silliness. The number of misrepresentations of science in the trailer doesn't bode well for the hope of any sort of objectivity in the full film.

I remember reading an article about this movie and how Dawkins and other scientist were tricked into interviews (they were told the movie was just a documentation on teach ID in schools). And I'm sure the editors of the film will make liberal use of cutting and pasting sections of the interviews in order to make those scientists sound like assholes.

P.S. I like how he mentions Darwinism and then shows pictures of Nazi concentration camps.  icon_rolleyes
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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2008, 11:30:29 PM »

The more we hear from the REAL Ben Stein, the more of a uber far right jackass we see he is.
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 03:48:46 AM »

Quote from: Ralph-Wiggum on February 14, 2008, 11:24:08 PM



P.S. I like how he mentions Darwinism and then shows pictures of Nazi concentration camps.  icon_rolleyes

you didnt know that Darwin was a Nazi?
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 04:09:53 AM »

Quote from: ROTC1983 on February 14, 2008, 08:59:00 PM

I like Ben Stein as a person...I am definitely going to watch this movie just to see what he has to say.
I've never liked him. As Unbreakable says, he's really right-wing and I can't find anything I agree with him on. But he somehow plays off his "I hate you for being different" beliefs by being on game-shows and wearing tennis shoes. He's like a less charismatic Henry Kissinger, but without his hands in millions of deaths.
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ROTC1983
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 09:49:38 AM »

After watching that again, yeah, I actually agree with you.  I guess certain people come across as something else...then you see their true colors come out Tongue
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 07:36:24 PM »

Quote from: Lee on February 14, 2008, 10:12:33 PM

I'll watch it, but it does look to be very one sided with the viewpoint of "Us poor Christians are persecuted in this country". I like BS, but jeez he was a bit over dramatic in that clip.
Interesting, as Stein is a Jew.
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disarm
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 10:22:39 PM »

umm...what kind of ridiculous crap did i just watch?
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Brendan
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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 11:21:13 PM »

In related news:

Quote
The United States lags behind most other developed countries when it comes to science education.

That, at least, is one conclusion of a major report released Tuesday by the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). It measures student literacy in science, math, and reading (focusing this year on science) among 15-year-olds, and is an often-cited reference for policymakers sounding the alarm bells about the state of education in the United States and its implications for the ability of Americans to secure jobs in a global economy.

Finland emerged at the top of 57 countries in science, according to the 2006 survey results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA). The US ranked 29th, behind countries like Croatia, the Czech Republic, and Liechtenstein, and ahead of just nine other OECD countries.

Based on the trailer for this "documentary", I can only assume we'll manage to drop below Krgystan next time around.
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Lee
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« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2008, 03:51:07 PM »

Quote from: Laner on February 15, 2008, 07:36:24 PM

Quote from: Lee on February 14, 2008, 10:12:33 PM

I'll watch it, but it does look to be very one sided with the viewpoint of "Us poor Christians are persecuted in this country". I like BS, but jeez he was a bit over dramatic in that clip.
Interesting, as Stein is a Jew.

I don't care what religion he is, but I guess you could insert any religion that insists on intelligent design as having any basis other than in your faith.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2008, 04:39:41 PM »

Quote from: Laner on February 15, 2008, 07:36:24 PM

Quote from: Lee on February 14, 2008, 10:12:33 PM

I'll watch it, but it does look to be very one sided with the viewpoint of "Us poor Christians are persecuted in this country". I like BS, but jeez he was a bit over dramatic in that clip.
Interesting, as Stein is a Jew.
Joseph Lieberman is also a Jew.
But as the religions are pretty similar, especially in terms of the creation, this isn't all that off point. "Us poor judeo-christians are persecuted in this country."
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Lee
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2008, 06:38:28 PM »

Thanks to Mr Fed at OO for an update.

It appears the movies producer had a biologist featured in the movie kicked out of a pre-screening. They didn't realize that said biologist was with Richard Dawkins and let him in.

PZ Myers blog about it. His blog has various other links in about the event and the movie. Surprisingly it sounds like the movie sucks.
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SkyLander
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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 07:19:37 PM »

Quote from: Lee on March 21, 2008, 06:38:28 PM

Surprisingly it sounds like the movie sucks.

How is that surprising.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2008, 07:24:48 PM »

Quote from: SkyLander on March 21, 2008, 07:19:37 PM

Quote from: Lee on March 21, 2008, 06:38:28 PM

Surprisingly it sounds like the movie sucks.

How is that surprising.

It was sarcasm, I thought with my record around here that no smilies were needed. smile
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2008, 07:25:00 PM »

Quote from: SkyLander on March 21, 2008, 07:19:37 PM

Quote from: Lee on March 21, 2008, 06:38:28 PM

Surprisingly it sounds like the movie sucks.

How is that surprising.

In a sarcastic way, I'm guessing.
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« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2008, 06:37:25 PM »

Quote from: Lee on March 21, 2008, 07:24:48 PM

Quote from: SkyLander on March 21, 2008, 07:19:37 PM

Quote from: Lee on March 21, 2008, 06:38:28 PM

Surprisingly it sounds like the movie sucks.

How is that surprising.

It was sarcasm, I thought with my record around here that no smilies were needed. smile

Your lack of smilies offended and disturbed me.
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« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2008, 10:35:40 PM »

Quote from: Lee on March 21, 2008, 06:38:28 PM

It appears the movies producer had a biologist featured in the movie kicked out of a pre-screening. They didn't realize that said biologist was with Richard Dawkins and let him in.

Here is the interview where they discuss Myers being expelled from the movie even though he is not only in the movie, but Thanked! in the credits.

And the parody, Sexpelled
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msduncan
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« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2008, 11:03:19 PM »

Quote from: Lee on February 14, 2008, 10:12:33 PM

I'll watch it, but it does look to be very one sided with the viewpoint of "Us poor Christians are persecuted in this country". I like BS, but jeez he was a bit over dramatic in that clip.

Well this is the current trend --  like Michael Moore's movies from the left.     These type documentaries are selling these days, so you'll get some from both sides.
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« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2008, 11:04:00 PM »

And I didn't even check the date of the OP.   Tongue
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Lee
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« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2008, 01:59:55 AM »

I have been following the movie quite closely (reading reviews as well as articles from the scientist involved), and I will not be seeing it. I will not give these people money. Not only did they trick the scientist involved into the interviews and then take those interviews completely out of context to make them look bad, but most of the movie is a lie. This site has a lot of information about the movie and the people who claimed to be fired (who weren't actually). They also don't explain their viewpoints very well being very vague while they compare people who believe in evolution to Nazis.

Almost every review completely destroys the movie, even the one positive rated review I found, the text was pretty negative. It's supposedly quite badly done.

Also they are being sued for using animations without approval, what with the false pretense interviews and filling an audience with stand ins, the makers of the movie seem to be morally bankrupt as well.

9% on Rotten Tomatoes so far. I find it hard to believe anyone could give this movie a positive review if they would research it some and find out the movie is an exaggeration/lie.
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« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2008, 03:46:20 AM »

Wow, Lee, that sounds a lot like Michael Moore's movies.

*gasp*
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« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2008, 04:24:45 AM »

Boy, that's sure not true.

Actually, there is one Michael Moore movie that was panned.  Like Expelled, it's fiction.
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msduncan
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« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2008, 01:46:38 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 19, 2008, 04:24:45 AM

Boy, that's sure not true.

Actually, there is one Michael Moore movie that was panned.  Like Expelled, it's fiction.

I think he was referring to the one-sided documentary theme.      It's in vogue right now, just like Michael Moore's movies.    He wasn't referring to the ratings on rotten tomatos or critic ratings.
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Lee
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« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2008, 02:13:19 PM »

Christianity Today review.

Quote
But another result of wartime Germany did not seem tangential—recurrent images of the Berlin Wall as a metaphor for the supposed "wall" in academia and scientific circles, the wall that represents the two "sides" of the debate. The filmmakers—and Stein—would say that the wall is very real, that it was constructed by the "thought police" of the scientific community (read: evolutionists) who have no intent of allowing ID proponents any access to the other side.

They really just don't get it. Science is very willing to discuss it, the problem is that science is based on putting forth a theory and then letting your peers scrutinize it. If you write a paper saying that the world is flat you have to back it up, provide evidence for why you think the earth is flat. Then you send the paper out to your peers and let them do everything they can to disprove your logic.  Intelligent design has to meet the same standards as everything else to be accepted. The problem is ID cannot be backed up with anything besides faith, and faith just doesn't work in science.

ID will be taken very seriously when evidence is put forth to give it the benefit of the doubt, just like everything else.

Honestly the only people are going to like this film are YEC who are in denial.
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« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2008, 03:15:21 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 01:46:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 19, 2008, 04:24:45 AM

Boy, that's sure not true.

Actually, there is one Michael Moore movie that was panned.  Like Expelled, it's fiction.

I think he was referring to the one-sided documentary theme.      It's in vogue right now, just like Michael Moore's movies.    He wasn't referring to the ratings on rotten tomatos or critic ratings.

That's exactly what I was referring to.  That, and the fact that Moore's documentaries are full of lies.

I remember several internet sites (such as this) dedicated to debunking the claims in Bowling for Columbine, alone.  Such as how Moore edited several Charlton Heston speeches together (Heston was wearing different clothes!) to make it look like he was giving a single speech about a different topic than the ones actually contained in the individual speeches!
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« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2008, 03:29:19 PM »

Most documentarys are one-sided.  I assume what you two are actually referring to is the tactic of ambush journalism that characterizes Moore's films as well as Expelled.  Sure - they have genetic similarities, but that doesn't mean that they're equivalent.  Moore is a ham, a provocateur, and can be irritating.  The Stein movie is just full of shit.  Sicko isn't a perfect movie, but it certainly doesn't make core fundamental misrepresentations like Expelled (apparently) does.
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« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 19, 2008, 03:29:19 PM

Most documentarys are one-sided.  I assume what you two are actually referring to is the tactic of ambush journalism that characterizes Moore's films as well as Expelled.  Sure - they have genetic similarities, but that doesn't mean that they're equivalent.  Moore is a ham, a provocateur, and can be irritating.  The Stein movie is just full of shit.  Sicko isn't a perfect movie, but it certainly doesn't make core fundamental misrepresentations like Expelled (apparently) does.
Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   I think that Moore's movies are full of shit.   So it depends on the perspective.
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« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2008, 04:02:55 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.

Actually, yes, it does.   Your facts are what I see as opinions.   My facts are what you see as opinions.
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2008, 04:48:09 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 04:02:55 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.

Actually, yes, it does.   Your facts are what I see as opinions.   My facts are what you see as opinions.

Uh, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact
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« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2008, 05:49:41 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 04:48:09 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 04:02:55 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.

Actually, yes, it does.   Your facts are what I see as opinions.   My facts are what you see as opinions.

Uh, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact


Nice wikipedia link.   If it comes out of Michael Moore's head, it's dismissed as bullshit by me and you aren't going to convince me if you link the library of congress.
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Lee
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« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2008, 06:23:21 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 05:49:41 PM

If it comes out of Michael Moore's head, it's dismissed as bullshit by me and you aren't going to convince me if you link the library of congress.

Ignorance is bliss.
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« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2008, 06:30:22 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 06:23:21 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 05:49:41 PM

If it comes out of Michael Moore's head, it's dismissed as bullshit by me and you aren't going to convince me if you link the library of congress.

Ignorance is bliss.

Yeah, his ignorance'll be bliss until he gets some sort of chronic illness that his health coverage won't pay for.
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« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2008, 06:38:27 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 05:49:41 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 04:48:09 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 04:02:55 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on April 19, 2008, 03:58:19 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 19, 2008, 03:38:26 PM

Well that all comes down to political opinions doesn't it?   

Actually, no, it doesn't.  Facts are facts.

Actually, yes, it does.   Your facts are what I see as opinions.   My facts are what you see as opinions.

Uh, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact


Nice wikipedia link.   If it comes out of Michael Moore's head, it's dismissed as bullshit by me and you aren't going to convince me if you link the library of congress.

Ah, a prime example of conservative anti-intellectualism, the cancer that has destroyed the philosophical underpinnings of the American conservative movement.

FACTS are FACTS. If Moore says that the sky is blue, that's a fact. It's INTERPRETATIONS that are up for grabs and based on opinion.

The basic FACTS about, say, comparative costs for citizens in different countries who need healthcare in Sicko are accurate, or they're not facts. Facts don't simply become opinion because you don't like the speaker. Now, the interpretation and conclusions drawn from those facts are debatable, but that's a totally different matter.

With a movie like Expelled, people aren't raising alarms simply because they disagree with the interpretations and conclusions drawn by the filmmakers, but because the things presented as "facts," even in the preview, simply aren't factual information by any meaningful measure. That's the difference between Moore's Sicko and this film.

If you can't see that, then you're really not going to be able to contribute anything useful to a conversation about either film.
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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2008, 06:46:14 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on April 19, 2008, 06:38:27 PM

If you can't see that, then you're really not going to be able to contribute anything useful to a conversation about either film.

I think you're mistaking people's goals. In general, conservatives (the anti-intellectual variety) are just attempting to muddy the waters to create false equivalencies, because the facts are most often not on their side.  "Oh, he doesn't wear a flag pin, therefore hates our troops.  QED."
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« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2008, 06:57:05 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 19, 2008, 03:29:19 PM

Most documentarys are one-sided.  I assume what you two are actually referring to is the tactic of ambush journalism that characterizes Moore's films as well as Expelled.  Sure - they have genetic similarities, but that doesn't mean that they're equivalent.  Moore is a ham, a provocateur, and can be irritating.  The Stein movie is just full of shit.  Sicko isn't a perfect movie, but it certainly doesn't make core fundamental misrepresentations like Expelled (apparently) does.

So that prime example in Bowling for Columbine of Moore editing Charlton Heston speeches together to misrepresent what Heston was truly saying isn't a "core fundamental misrepresentation"?
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Lee
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2008, 07:00:11 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on April 19, 2008, 06:57:05 PM

So that prime example in Bowling for Columbine of Moore editing Charlton Heston speeches together to misrepresent what Heston was truly saying isn't a "core fundamental misrepresentation"?

Sure it is, but misrepresentation of a crazed actor who is being used as a figurehead isn't the same as misrepresenting a philosopher or scientist who actually knows what he is talking about. smile
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2008, 09:34:47 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 19, 2008, 07:00:11 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on April 19, 2008, 06:57:05 PM

So that prime example in Bowling for Columbine of Moore editing Charlton Heston speeches together to misrepresent what Heston was truly saying isn't a "core fundamental misrepresentation"?

Sure it is, but misrepresentation of a crazed actor who is being used as a figurehead isn't the same as misrepresenting a philosopher or scientist who actually knows what he is talking about. smile

Dude, really?  A misrepresntation is a misrepresentation.
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